HOW TO: Make Your Car Go Faster
KustmAce
08-22-2004, 02:10 PM
Thanks to Event on JBO for writing this!
Making your car go faster is almost inevitable. Whethes you drop 20$ for something like synthetic oil, or 2000$ for something like a turbo, sooner or later most will try to make their car faster.
*****This is just a GENERAL FAQ on stuff I learned, things that can be referenced and something in a conglomerate that you can reference info from whether you are new or seasoned. If anyone wishes to add on parts or info DEFINITELY do so…*****
What should I do? Where do you start in doing this? What should you mod first?
First things first, many have already posted a lot of things. USE THE SEARCH BUTTON if you want to find general info. Simply set it to ALL DATES and possible search for topics as well a message bodies. A lot of info is posted over and over. Take some initiative and not be lazy and simply use some of the features on the board. That’s why there were put there. If you are a NEWBIE (its not a bad thing) and don’t know where it is--its above where you post in the box. Look above, it you have the whole set of a tool bar to help you.
If you are still at the “what can I do/where do I start” stage, sit down and think about this quote I learned with monster trucks
“Speed costs, how fast do you want to go”
the faster you go the more money there is that WILL be spent. There is no such thing as CHEAP SPEED.
The next thing you should ask yourself, AND NOT US, what should I upgrade? Or what should I do next.
There really is no specific order in ways to do things… for the most part bolt ons are the easiest and can be done within a day for the most part. They can range from free to a few hundred dollars. But do keep in mind that parts that are free or very low price are like that for a reason. Unless you get an intake or throttle body from a friend, parts that seem too good to be true, usually are. Leading to the first main section….
Parts too good to be true
these are the parts that claim MONDO horsepower, but cost less than a universal remote from sears.
EBAY Scams
Ebay resistor mods/intake resistor scam mods: these usually cost around 99 cents up to 20$. All they send you is a 10cents resistor you could have gotten from radio shack. They claim power, but all it does is make the car dump gas in the injectors… it doesn’t advance timing, just makes you run rich and waste gas, cause if you actually put this on your car, you prob are new to the game, don’t have the air or spark to blow it all up when it gets there. Over time it can cause problems. Its not a bad thing to be new, each and EVERY one of us were new at a time, but you can prevent being new and falling for outrageous claims for small amounts of money.
Power isn’t cheap. Keep that in mind. If you fall for this, take a flip flop and beat self repeatedly.
Throttle body spacers: granted they do a bit on some carbureted engines, not much of a diff on our 3rd gens.
Jet Chip Performance Control Module (PCM): ok a lot of you believe in it, but it’s the same thing as the TPS TEC and Venom 400. you can also do the same thing with your foot. I wont get TOO in depth on this, but it’s a waste of 100 used, or 200+ dollars new. Karo, dynoed this beast of a faux mod and gained like 1.3 or 1.5 whopping HP. Aka, for the price, you could have done better. But like said above it’s the same as pressing harder on the gas. To read more about it in depth, I’ll refer you to the JBO main library listing for it. http://www.j-body.org/faq/10/20/
that should also cover the TPS TECs and VENOMS as well.
CHIPS : “I wanna chip my car!” so do the rest of us, but you now can take 1 minute out of your day to thank OBD2 computer that control our cars. On third gens from 96 and up, its OBD2, and OBD2 is as of now, unable to be chipped. There is such thing as a reflash programming, but VERY FEW places can do it. RSMracing.com Mantapart.com stated on their websites that they do it. But its expensive. And to what degree they do things, well I am not sure, if you wanna know, then call them or email them. Go straight to the source so you KNOW from the COMPANY DIRECTLY. 95 and earlier cars that had OBD1 computers however can be chipped. However chips companies that are decent are rare.
ASE chips on the other hand…. Well I will leave you with this. http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=204484&t=141807#reply_204484
DISCLAIMER ON THE NEXT TOPIC- ***DAVE AND OTHERS TRY TO KEEP THIS SITE RESPECTABLE AND NOT LITTERED WITH STREET RACING SO THAT WHEN THE PUBLIC OR MEDIA NEEDS A SCAPEGOAT TO BLAME, THIS SITE DOESN’T SHOW UP ON GOOGLE***
Speed Governor – yes there is a way to do it, no I will not tell you, BUT I will tell you where to SEARCH for it. I wont tell cause if you f*ck up and kill yourself or someone else, I don’t want it back on myself. Some of the idiots will do so or their families will, cause they need someone to blame. And as it stands if you are that new that you have to ask about it, its evident you don’t know much about these cars nor prob don’t have a good setup car wise to be under control. THIS ISNT A BASH ON YOUR DRIVING SKILLS OR CAR!!!!!!!!!!! There are only a few that would need this mod on a track, but as it stands most of you def do this on public roads. Even the most deserted roads you can screw up and kill yourself or another. And if the roads are really that deserted you have to watch out for wildlife.
Yes you can do this on 4 speed autos, not on 3 speeds as of yet I don’t think, and yes for manuals. Doing so can throw a code and cause problems. That’s at your own risk when you HALF-AS-S things… Obviously this isn’t a real reprogramming to do this nor a kit, its simply doing things at your own and cars risk. NO ONE ON JBO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SCREW UPS…. also doing this is odometer tampering, and also leaves your car at 0$ resale value. Yes, by doing this, if its ever found when someone once overs your car, your car will now be worth ZERO DOLLARS. Pretty costly for stupidity in my thoughts. Cause the majority of you, nor myself aren’t the worlds greatest drivers, you aren’t driving the safest cars, so if you mess up that’s your rear.
Someone will undoubtedly catch a hissy fit from me posting what I did, but I really don’t care. Truth hurts sometimes, deal with it. You can call me every name in the book if you think its makes you more of a man or woman, but this mod shouldn’t be used on public roads PERIOD. And the majority of us, with respect to M Karas, Karo, prob J mack, and a few small group of others, will ever need this on a ¼ mile track. However now you know where to get it. Got it? Good.
Bolt Ons
The basic boltons are Intakes and Exhaust. That’s usually the first things that are done with cars. Easiest to do, gains are low to moderate. This pretty much goes for ALL boltons.
Intakes- I’ve had quite a few, which are normally called WAI;s and CAI’s (warm air and cold air) but the real names for them are long ram intake aka CAI and short ram intake WAI.
Short rams are usually more abundant, and from proof they run pretty much similar to long rams. A bit more quicker throttle response can be seen due to a shorter path and less bends to travel through.
Long rams are a bit more rare and are usually mounted down in the fender. Also another note, there are people always referring to “true CAI’s”…don’t know where the term came from, but the only difference between a TRUE CAI and a CAI conversion from a WAI, if the fact that parts came with the alleged “TRUE CAI” all in one package. The filters are all mounted in the same exact area, and the pipes travel the same path. Sometimes they charge you more for the name TRUE CAI depending on where you go.
Now, The reason I am leaving them to long or short rather than Warm or Cold, is that from measuring with a temp sender and gauge. There was a difference between the two of 4 degrees. Also another bit of note, it wa ian lacey or matt teske, one of the two dynoed a WAI at 9 hp, aem just dynoed one of their CAI’s at 8.6 hp. So does that mean WAI;s are better? No. they have just as many downsides as a CAI. Some people think the heat is extremely bad under the car, which is a myth, cause when the car is in motion air circulates under the hood. So basically you get the same air temp as a CAI.
With a CAI, the filter is mounted low, and in the summer time or sunny days we all know heat absorbs into the ground, and then…heat rises. The lower you have the filter, its still gonna take in warmer air. And also, COLD AIR, is normally what you read. However, use a bit of logic. The air is cold in the winter time, but in the summer, its hot outside. The air your intake takes in is only relative to the air temp outside. Sure dynos say this and that, but you also have to realize, they are in usually controlled environments, and also what a car gains on one car, can differ with the same part on another car. Meaning, I can dyno an intake on my car and gain 8 hp, take it off and give it to you and you may gain 10hp. Hell dynoeing a car outside and inside can make a differnce. The cooler it is the better the car runs.
There are plenty of companies to buy from. A lot of people swear by this and that, and that’s personal choice. Doesn’t exactly mean something is better, and there DEFINITELY isn’t a BEST. If any one claims that theirs is the best simply ask have you tried all the other intakes available? 9 times out of 10, prob not. I stopped after the rksport CAI, mantapart CAI, rsm WAI, mantapart WAI, and about 5 other self made intakes… there really wasn’t much difference in temp nor performance. Yea I wasted money, but I wanted to see what was all the hype. Back then intakes were around 200$ now they bump into the 300$ range. Some can justify it, I can’t. it’s a metal pipe with a filter on the end. Keep in mind every company out there has made a public printed claim that there intake is the best, or gives the most gains
AEM makes this claim: Outperform every comparable intake system on the market
http://aempower.com/product_intake.asp
other companys have made their claims, and while I will publicly say I don’t doubt ANY of them, one persons intake will always produce better results than another. On different cars results will vary. Don’t fall into the ordeal where company X said 10HP, but company Z make 7HP. It is quite and DEF possible, that Z may actually produce more on your car than X does.
For those that will want to make their own, save money and get pretty much the same performance. These sites will help.
http://www.airflowonline.com
http://www.ny-jbodies.org/forum/library/2200/intake.htm
http://members.aol.com/htown2200/intake.html
most of these are for a 2200 2.2 which can be done on a 95-97 2.2 as well, but if you have a 2.4, or 2.3 or ecotec, its really the same process, you just need to substitute different parts. Use the imagination. It’s a really easy job to do.
For those that will want to buy and intake, there are a few JBO locals and companies to check out.
Don’t get mad Chris, putting your registry/name out there.
http://www.j-body.org/members/agentomega/ he has produced some for the 2200. email him for other cars. They are of decent quality and a reasonably low price. Same as ToBoyz intakes.
And a few companies:
http://www.rsmracing.com[/url]
http://www.mantapart.com[/url]
http://induction-dynamics.com/[/url]
http://rksport.com/[/url]
http://carcustoms.net/store/[/url]
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php[/url]
http://www.howellautomotive.com[/url]
http://www.cavalierconnection.com[/url]
and even
http://www.ebay.com[/url]
those are some sites to get you started. If at worse, check google or WebCrawler, you will find more side shops that have them.
Now onto EXHAUSTS:
Exhaust help your engine expel the stuff it takes in. imagine eating and well you know what you do after you eat.
There are MANY exhaust systems, from magnaflow, to rksport, to mantapart, to thermal research development, borla, stans/bills, is there a BEST? No, cause as it stands bills only tested on DOHC cars not any OHV cars are posted. There isn’t a BEST exhaust pipe size per car, bills dynos show one thing, others have shown differently and a reputable company such as magnaflow makes theirs in 2.25, not 2.5, turbo benefit from different sizes and people with nitrous will do better with another. There isn’t a BEST EXAHAUST or a BEST SOUND. You simply have to find something that works for you.
Exhaust sound. There’s really not gonna get you far asking about sound. Unless you hear it in person or on tape.
http://tiger.towson.edu/~apittm1/mov00227.mpeg he LOVES his exhaust but many will disagree. I’m not a big fan of super loud exhaust unless in reason, aka your engine can back it up. SOUND is PURELY relative to EACH individuals ear.. Visit http://www.magnaflow.com let the page load. I consider that to be a decent exhaust. Some will disagree. Some actually like a raspy exhaust. Personally I don’t. its ALL PREFERENCE. So what will XXXXX exhaust sound like? Who knows from person to person. Buy it, and if you don’t like it, change the tone of it, add a resonator. Change the muffler to a longer one or shorter one, there are many things you can do to change the sound of an exhaust. Look at it this way, with the pipes already bought, at least you have the basics already ran.
Going custom and having a local shop do you your exhaust is also another option. They can do pretty much the same thing. It isn’t necessarily needed to have a mandrel bent exhaust. The majority of the people who mod their cars on here will even mod their car to the point where it will make a difference. Compression bent pipe is an alternative. Crush bent pipe I would avoid as it leaves bumps/ridges in the metal. Compression doesn’t nor does mandrel.
Another good article to read on getting started with building your own exhaust is here: http://magnaflow.com/05news/magazine/05sportc.htm its easy to do and sometimes can be cheaper depending on where you go. Also if you go somewhere and ask for mandrel pipe bending, do realize mandrel machines are EXPENSIVE. Not every tom dick and Harvey shop has one. Most places use a compression bender (not crush, compression) which is a close second to mandrel. It keeps things smooth inner and outer but it distorts the pipe a SMALL bit, if the person knows what they are doing. The pipe will still keep around 98% of the opening, but it may be in a slight oval shape. Still the same amount of flow however. Crush bend however does the same thing as the wrinkling of skin on a sharpei dog. The ridges will cause turbulence.
Low and behold WHATEVER exhaust you choose, it IS tuneable. Also dual exhausts are more show than anything. You have one exhaust manifold, and single exhaust gets the job done effectively. Adding duals is just extra pipe, extra weight, and extra noise for the most part. Nothing wrong with it if you like it, but duals aren’t really needed. Just for looks really.
A few companies to look for are
http://www.magnaflow.com
http://www.thermalrd.com/about.htm
http://www.borla.com
http://www.rsmracing.com
http://www.mantapart.com
http://carcustoms.net/store/
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php
http://www.howellautomotive.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
and even
http://www.ebay.com
for other main companies where you can buy parts from like mufflers, the article posted above gives you roughly an how to as well as another list of muffler companies.
***NOTE*** ebay mufflers have “Apexi Style” mufflers, but they normally aren’t apexi N1 mufflers and such. Make sure you get quality parts. Cheap knockoffs are of a lower quality, and the muffling material inside can be on low quality sound absorbing stuff. It wont last and long sound as consistent or sound like a quality muffler. When going on ebay, make sure the part is of quality and the actual piece, not a “XXXXXX STYLE” part. You get what you pay for.
Throttle Bodies
this is basically the mouth of the engine taking in air, it opens and closes allows you to idle, peel out, or pull on someone like mad dentist. TB;s are interchangeable and you can accomplish this in 3 ways… 1)find other throttle bodies from other cars, 2) get your stock one bored and make a plate that will fit the new boring, or 3) buy one which will be the easiest and use your stock one for the core charge.
If you find another one from another car, that will be trial and error. Supposedly the 2.3TB fits a 2200 with no mods. The 2.2 from 95-97 is a harder to find and most likely will have to use option 2 or 3. 2.4’s can get them from the same places as well and the same options.
Some places to get em:
http://www.rsmracing.com
http://www.mantapart.com
http://rksport.com/
http://carcustoms.net/store/
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php
http://www.howellautomotive.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
Engine Mounts:
upper and lower are good to do. This decreases the engine movement and make sure no power is lost through motion of the engine rocking back and forth upon acceleration. There are a few companies that sell these, but heres the deal.
The upper engine mount causes a little bit of vibes, the lower mounts cause a bit more vibes, but only depending on which lower one you get. Some bushings have a lower durometer (I think that’s the word, but I means stiffness) and the harder the stiffness, the less movement which means more power to the ground, but the lesser stiff bushings def do a lot better than the stock rubber stuff. But less vibes than the super stiff.
Places to get em:
http://www.rsmracing.com
http://www.mantapart.com
http://rksport.com/
http://carcustoms.net/store/
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php
http://www.howellautomotive.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
Header: be careful what you ask for you might get it. Most people say HEADERS, we only have ONE HEADER, saying HEADERS with the S means dual or two. Just clarifying that cause I have had friends order HEADERS and get charged and shipped two of them.
But on this subject, there are actually quite a few for the 2.2, 2200, 2.4, and Ecotec engines.
OBX
RSMracing
Mantapart
Rksport
Isuzuperformance/Stans/Bills (they have been called all three)
Pacesetter
These are all decent header companies. When adding one make sure you have either motor mounts or possibly a flex pipe. The mounts like stated above keep the motor from rocking which can break flanges on the header causing leaks, or a flex pipe which comes stock on most cars allows the engine to rock if you don’t have mounts, but the pipe flexes so the stress isn’t put on the flanges or pipe.
Inner Goodies
these are things that are inside the engine. Its different on both engines, some are more internal than others. But there is a lot you can do in this area.
Cams, this is often a big question asked. Where can I get em? A lot of places.
http://www.RSMracing.com
http://www.Mantapart.com
http://www.Cranecams.com
http://www.Rksport.com
http://www.Jbodyperformance.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
Are all places that offer cams. Also there is a “secret swap cam from a certain older 95 and before cavalier 2.3 engine. Here is the link to that info with 319 posts: http://www.j-body.org/forums/search.php?f=2&search=secret+cam&globalsearch=0&match=1&date=0&fldsubject=1
Cams can raise or lower the lift of the valves and also lengthen or shorten duration (the mount of time a valve stays open in a cycle). Cams grinds can either come in the form of a regrind of the stock one, a grind from a cam blank, or a completely new billet ground cam from a completely stock piece of steel. The pictures of that process is here: http://cranecams.com/camstory.htm
Valves are another area to improve engine efficiency. Stainless steel ones are usually the upgrade choice, although if “your pockets aint empty cuz!” you can get titanium if you are looking to build a high revving engine. But keep in mind the price on titanium rises significantly.
For this (hig revving engines), stiffer springs will def be needed. There aren’t many choices, but mantapart.com has em as well as rsmracing.com and jbodyperformance.com. howell automotive is working on the springs for a 2200 so there should be some options.
Rocker arms for the 2200 2.2 and 2.2 can be upgraded to roller tip ones. The dohc engines don’t deal with rocker arms I believe. But for the 2.2-ohv engines:
If you have a 95-97 engine (may work on the older 2.2ohv from 93 or 94 as well) go here: http://www.ny-jbodies.org/forum/library/How2/2.2rockerarm.htm
If you have a 98-02 2.2 ohv or more commonly known as the 2200, go here: http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=215049&t=209576#reply_215049
Pushrods are another upgrade and crane will be working with Howell automotive for those I suspect. I donated 4 of them so they have some to work with. Hopefully like the rocker arms a good turnout will occur. If you need a custom set made for other engines, you can try getting custom made ones from crane or crower, crane is the company as right now I prefer, but preference is up to the individual and how fast or long it will take to make em.
Pistons and Connecting Rods are two of the main 3 major moving parts of the lower end/bottom end.
With rods you can get them from a variety of places such as:
http://www.Crower.com
http://www.JEpistons.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
http://www.RSMracing.com
http://www.Mantapart.com
http://www.Rksport.com
http://www.Jbodyperformance.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
when ordering pistons you are usually able to choose the compression that you will want them it. Keep in mind you can get anything in a custom order.
Another option to new pistons is to get a set of used or new ones from a stock engine and cryotreat em. Its cost effective, but not many go that route.
Hope that helps!
Making your car go faster is almost inevitable. Whethes you drop 20$ for something like synthetic oil, or 2000$ for something like a turbo, sooner or later most will try to make their car faster.
*****This is just a GENERAL FAQ on stuff I learned, things that can be referenced and something in a conglomerate that you can reference info from whether you are new or seasoned. If anyone wishes to add on parts or info DEFINITELY do so…*****
What should I do? Where do you start in doing this? What should you mod first?
First things first, many have already posted a lot of things. USE THE SEARCH BUTTON if you want to find general info. Simply set it to ALL DATES and possible search for topics as well a message bodies. A lot of info is posted over and over. Take some initiative and not be lazy and simply use some of the features on the board. That’s why there were put there. If you are a NEWBIE (its not a bad thing) and don’t know where it is--its above where you post in the box. Look above, it you have the whole set of a tool bar to help you.
If you are still at the “what can I do/where do I start” stage, sit down and think about this quote I learned with monster trucks
“Speed costs, how fast do you want to go”
the faster you go the more money there is that WILL be spent. There is no such thing as CHEAP SPEED.
The next thing you should ask yourself, AND NOT US, what should I upgrade? Or what should I do next.
There really is no specific order in ways to do things… for the most part bolt ons are the easiest and can be done within a day for the most part. They can range from free to a few hundred dollars. But do keep in mind that parts that are free or very low price are like that for a reason. Unless you get an intake or throttle body from a friend, parts that seem too good to be true, usually are. Leading to the first main section….
Parts too good to be true
these are the parts that claim MONDO horsepower, but cost less than a universal remote from sears.
EBAY Scams
Ebay resistor mods/intake resistor scam mods: these usually cost around 99 cents up to 20$. All they send you is a 10cents resistor you could have gotten from radio shack. They claim power, but all it does is make the car dump gas in the injectors… it doesn’t advance timing, just makes you run rich and waste gas, cause if you actually put this on your car, you prob are new to the game, don’t have the air or spark to blow it all up when it gets there. Over time it can cause problems. Its not a bad thing to be new, each and EVERY one of us were new at a time, but you can prevent being new and falling for outrageous claims for small amounts of money.
Power isn’t cheap. Keep that in mind. If you fall for this, take a flip flop and beat self repeatedly.
Throttle body spacers: granted they do a bit on some carbureted engines, not much of a diff on our 3rd gens.
Jet Chip Performance Control Module (PCM): ok a lot of you believe in it, but it’s the same thing as the TPS TEC and Venom 400. you can also do the same thing with your foot. I wont get TOO in depth on this, but it’s a waste of 100 used, or 200+ dollars new. Karo, dynoed this beast of a faux mod and gained like 1.3 or 1.5 whopping HP. Aka, for the price, you could have done better. But like said above it’s the same as pressing harder on the gas. To read more about it in depth, I’ll refer you to the JBO main library listing for it. http://www.j-body.org/faq/10/20/
that should also cover the TPS TECs and VENOMS as well.
CHIPS : “I wanna chip my car!” so do the rest of us, but you now can take 1 minute out of your day to thank OBD2 computer that control our cars. On third gens from 96 and up, its OBD2, and OBD2 is as of now, unable to be chipped. There is such thing as a reflash programming, but VERY FEW places can do it. RSMracing.com Mantapart.com stated on their websites that they do it. But its expensive. And to what degree they do things, well I am not sure, if you wanna know, then call them or email them. Go straight to the source so you KNOW from the COMPANY DIRECTLY. 95 and earlier cars that had OBD1 computers however can be chipped. However chips companies that are decent are rare.
ASE chips on the other hand…. Well I will leave you with this. http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=204484&t=141807#reply_204484
DISCLAIMER ON THE NEXT TOPIC- ***DAVE AND OTHERS TRY TO KEEP THIS SITE RESPECTABLE AND NOT LITTERED WITH STREET RACING SO THAT WHEN THE PUBLIC OR MEDIA NEEDS A SCAPEGOAT TO BLAME, THIS SITE DOESN’T SHOW UP ON GOOGLE***
Speed Governor – yes there is a way to do it, no I will not tell you, BUT I will tell you where to SEARCH for it. I wont tell cause if you f*ck up and kill yourself or someone else, I don’t want it back on myself. Some of the idiots will do so or their families will, cause they need someone to blame. And as it stands if you are that new that you have to ask about it, its evident you don’t know much about these cars nor prob don’t have a good setup car wise to be under control. THIS ISNT A BASH ON YOUR DRIVING SKILLS OR CAR!!!!!!!!!!! There are only a few that would need this mod on a track, but as it stands most of you def do this on public roads. Even the most deserted roads you can screw up and kill yourself or another. And if the roads are really that deserted you have to watch out for wildlife.
Yes you can do this on 4 speed autos, not on 3 speeds as of yet I don’t think, and yes for manuals. Doing so can throw a code and cause problems. That’s at your own risk when you HALF-AS-S things… Obviously this isn’t a real reprogramming to do this nor a kit, its simply doing things at your own and cars risk. NO ONE ON JBO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SCREW UPS…. also doing this is odometer tampering, and also leaves your car at 0$ resale value. Yes, by doing this, if its ever found when someone once overs your car, your car will now be worth ZERO DOLLARS. Pretty costly for stupidity in my thoughts. Cause the majority of you, nor myself aren’t the worlds greatest drivers, you aren’t driving the safest cars, so if you mess up that’s your rear.
Someone will undoubtedly catch a hissy fit from me posting what I did, but I really don’t care. Truth hurts sometimes, deal with it. You can call me every name in the book if you think its makes you more of a man or woman, but this mod shouldn’t be used on public roads PERIOD. And the majority of us, with respect to M Karas, Karo, prob J mack, and a few small group of others, will ever need this on a ¼ mile track. However now you know where to get it. Got it? Good.
Bolt Ons
The basic boltons are Intakes and Exhaust. That’s usually the first things that are done with cars. Easiest to do, gains are low to moderate. This pretty much goes for ALL boltons.
Intakes- I’ve had quite a few, which are normally called WAI;s and CAI’s (warm air and cold air) but the real names for them are long ram intake aka CAI and short ram intake WAI.
Short rams are usually more abundant, and from proof they run pretty much similar to long rams. A bit more quicker throttle response can be seen due to a shorter path and less bends to travel through.
Long rams are a bit more rare and are usually mounted down in the fender. Also another note, there are people always referring to “true CAI’s”…don’t know where the term came from, but the only difference between a TRUE CAI and a CAI conversion from a WAI, if the fact that parts came with the alleged “TRUE CAI” all in one package. The filters are all mounted in the same exact area, and the pipes travel the same path. Sometimes they charge you more for the name TRUE CAI depending on where you go.
Now, The reason I am leaving them to long or short rather than Warm or Cold, is that from measuring with a temp sender and gauge. There was a difference between the two of 4 degrees. Also another bit of note, it wa ian lacey or matt teske, one of the two dynoed a WAI at 9 hp, aem just dynoed one of their CAI’s at 8.6 hp. So does that mean WAI;s are better? No. they have just as many downsides as a CAI. Some people think the heat is extremely bad under the car, which is a myth, cause when the car is in motion air circulates under the hood. So basically you get the same air temp as a CAI.
With a CAI, the filter is mounted low, and in the summer time or sunny days we all know heat absorbs into the ground, and then…heat rises. The lower you have the filter, its still gonna take in warmer air. And also, COLD AIR, is normally what you read. However, use a bit of logic. The air is cold in the winter time, but in the summer, its hot outside. The air your intake takes in is only relative to the air temp outside. Sure dynos say this and that, but you also have to realize, they are in usually controlled environments, and also what a car gains on one car, can differ with the same part on another car. Meaning, I can dyno an intake on my car and gain 8 hp, take it off and give it to you and you may gain 10hp. Hell dynoeing a car outside and inside can make a differnce. The cooler it is the better the car runs.
There are plenty of companies to buy from. A lot of people swear by this and that, and that’s personal choice. Doesn’t exactly mean something is better, and there DEFINITELY isn’t a BEST. If any one claims that theirs is the best simply ask have you tried all the other intakes available? 9 times out of 10, prob not. I stopped after the rksport CAI, mantapart CAI, rsm WAI, mantapart WAI, and about 5 other self made intakes… there really wasn’t much difference in temp nor performance. Yea I wasted money, but I wanted to see what was all the hype. Back then intakes were around 200$ now they bump into the 300$ range. Some can justify it, I can’t. it’s a metal pipe with a filter on the end. Keep in mind every company out there has made a public printed claim that there intake is the best, or gives the most gains
AEM makes this claim: Outperform every comparable intake system on the market
http://aempower.com/product_intake.asp
other companys have made their claims, and while I will publicly say I don’t doubt ANY of them, one persons intake will always produce better results than another. On different cars results will vary. Don’t fall into the ordeal where company X said 10HP, but company Z make 7HP. It is quite and DEF possible, that Z may actually produce more on your car than X does.
For those that will want to make their own, save money and get pretty much the same performance. These sites will help.
http://www.airflowonline.com
http://www.ny-jbodies.org/forum/library/2200/intake.htm
http://members.aol.com/htown2200/intake.html
most of these are for a 2200 2.2 which can be done on a 95-97 2.2 as well, but if you have a 2.4, or 2.3 or ecotec, its really the same process, you just need to substitute different parts. Use the imagination. It’s a really easy job to do.
For those that will want to buy and intake, there are a few JBO locals and companies to check out.
Don’t get mad Chris, putting your registry/name out there.
http://www.j-body.org/members/agentomega/ he has produced some for the 2200. email him for other cars. They are of decent quality and a reasonably low price. Same as ToBoyz intakes.
And a few companies:
http://www.rsmracing.com[/url]
http://www.mantapart.com[/url]
http://induction-dynamics.com/[/url]
http://rksport.com/[/url]
http://carcustoms.net/store/[/url]
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php[/url]
http://www.howellautomotive.com[/url]
http://www.cavalierconnection.com[/url]
and even
http://www.ebay.com[/url]
those are some sites to get you started. If at worse, check google or WebCrawler, you will find more side shops that have them.
Now onto EXHAUSTS:
Exhaust help your engine expel the stuff it takes in. imagine eating and well you know what you do after you eat.
There are MANY exhaust systems, from magnaflow, to rksport, to mantapart, to thermal research development, borla, stans/bills, is there a BEST? No, cause as it stands bills only tested on DOHC cars not any OHV cars are posted. There isn’t a BEST exhaust pipe size per car, bills dynos show one thing, others have shown differently and a reputable company such as magnaflow makes theirs in 2.25, not 2.5, turbo benefit from different sizes and people with nitrous will do better with another. There isn’t a BEST EXAHAUST or a BEST SOUND. You simply have to find something that works for you.
Exhaust sound. There’s really not gonna get you far asking about sound. Unless you hear it in person or on tape.
http://tiger.towson.edu/~apittm1/mov00227.mpeg he LOVES his exhaust but many will disagree. I’m not a big fan of super loud exhaust unless in reason, aka your engine can back it up. SOUND is PURELY relative to EACH individuals ear.. Visit http://www.magnaflow.com let the page load. I consider that to be a decent exhaust. Some will disagree. Some actually like a raspy exhaust. Personally I don’t. its ALL PREFERENCE. So what will XXXXX exhaust sound like? Who knows from person to person. Buy it, and if you don’t like it, change the tone of it, add a resonator. Change the muffler to a longer one or shorter one, there are many things you can do to change the sound of an exhaust. Look at it this way, with the pipes already bought, at least you have the basics already ran.
Going custom and having a local shop do you your exhaust is also another option. They can do pretty much the same thing. It isn’t necessarily needed to have a mandrel bent exhaust. The majority of the people who mod their cars on here will even mod their car to the point where it will make a difference. Compression bent pipe is an alternative. Crush bent pipe I would avoid as it leaves bumps/ridges in the metal. Compression doesn’t nor does mandrel.
Another good article to read on getting started with building your own exhaust is here: http://magnaflow.com/05news/magazine/05sportc.htm its easy to do and sometimes can be cheaper depending on where you go. Also if you go somewhere and ask for mandrel pipe bending, do realize mandrel machines are EXPENSIVE. Not every tom dick and Harvey shop has one. Most places use a compression bender (not crush, compression) which is a close second to mandrel. It keeps things smooth inner and outer but it distorts the pipe a SMALL bit, if the person knows what they are doing. The pipe will still keep around 98% of the opening, but it may be in a slight oval shape. Still the same amount of flow however. Crush bend however does the same thing as the wrinkling of skin on a sharpei dog. The ridges will cause turbulence.
Low and behold WHATEVER exhaust you choose, it IS tuneable. Also dual exhausts are more show than anything. You have one exhaust manifold, and single exhaust gets the job done effectively. Adding duals is just extra pipe, extra weight, and extra noise for the most part. Nothing wrong with it if you like it, but duals aren’t really needed. Just for looks really.
A few companies to look for are
http://www.magnaflow.com
http://www.thermalrd.com/about.htm
http://www.borla.com
http://www.rsmracing.com
http://www.mantapart.com
http://carcustoms.net/store/
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php
http://www.howellautomotive.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
and even
http://www.ebay.com
for other main companies where you can buy parts from like mufflers, the article posted above gives you roughly an how to as well as another list of muffler companies.
***NOTE*** ebay mufflers have “Apexi Style” mufflers, but they normally aren’t apexi N1 mufflers and such. Make sure you get quality parts. Cheap knockoffs are of a lower quality, and the muffling material inside can be on low quality sound absorbing stuff. It wont last and long sound as consistent or sound like a quality muffler. When going on ebay, make sure the part is of quality and the actual piece, not a “XXXXXX STYLE” part. You get what you pay for.
Throttle Bodies
this is basically the mouth of the engine taking in air, it opens and closes allows you to idle, peel out, or pull on someone like mad dentist. TB;s are interchangeable and you can accomplish this in 3 ways… 1)find other throttle bodies from other cars, 2) get your stock one bored and make a plate that will fit the new boring, or 3) buy one which will be the easiest and use your stock one for the core charge.
If you find another one from another car, that will be trial and error. Supposedly the 2.3TB fits a 2200 with no mods. The 2.2 from 95-97 is a harder to find and most likely will have to use option 2 or 3. 2.4’s can get them from the same places as well and the same options.
Some places to get em:
http://www.rsmracing.com
http://www.mantapart.com
http://rksport.com/
http://carcustoms.net/store/
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php
http://www.howellautomotive.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
Engine Mounts:
upper and lower are good to do. This decreases the engine movement and make sure no power is lost through motion of the engine rocking back and forth upon acceleration. There are a few companies that sell these, but heres the deal.
The upper engine mount causes a little bit of vibes, the lower mounts cause a bit more vibes, but only depending on which lower one you get. Some bushings have a lower durometer (I think that’s the word, but I means stiffness) and the harder the stiffness, the less movement which means more power to the ground, but the lesser stiff bushings def do a lot better than the stock rubber stuff. But less vibes than the super stiff.
Places to get em:
http://www.rsmracing.com
http://www.mantapart.com
http://rksport.com/
http://carcustoms.net/store/
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php
http://www.howellautomotive.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
Header: be careful what you ask for you might get it. Most people say HEADERS, we only have ONE HEADER, saying HEADERS with the S means dual or two. Just clarifying that cause I have had friends order HEADERS and get charged and shipped two of them.
But on this subject, there are actually quite a few for the 2.2, 2200, 2.4, and Ecotec engines.
OBX
RSMracing
Mantapart
Rksport
Isuzuperformance/Stans/Bills (they have been called all three)
Pacesetter
These are all decent header companies. When adding one make sure you have either motor mounts or possibly a flex pipe. The mounts like stated above keep the motor from rocking which can break flanges on the header causing leaks, or a flex pipe which comes stock on most cars allows the engine to rock if you don’t have mounts, but the pipe flexes so the stress isn’t put on the flanges or pipe.
Inner Goodies
these are things that are inside the engine. Its different on both engines, some are more internal than others. But there is a lot you can do in this area.
Cams, this is often a big question asked. Where can I get em? A lot of places.
http://www.RSMracing.com
http://www.Mantapart.com
http://www.Cranecams.com
http://www.Rksport.com
http://www.Jbodyperformance.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
Are all places that offer cams. Also there is a “secret swap cam from a certain older 95 and before cavalier 2.3 engine. Here is the link to that info with 319 posts: http://www.j-body.org/forums/search.php?f=2&search=secret+cam&globalsearch=0&match=1&date=0&fldsubject=1
Cams can raise or lower the lift of the valves and also lengthen or shorten duration (the mount of time a valve stays open in a cycle). Cams grinds can either come in the form of a regrind of the stock one, a grind from a cam blank, or a completely new billet ground cam from a completely stock piece of steel. The pictures of that process is here: http://cranecams.com/camstory.htm
Valves are another area to improve engine efficiency. Stainless steel ones are usually the upgrade choice, although if “your pockets aint empty cuz!” you can get titanium if you are looking to build a high revving engine. But keep in mind the price on titanium rises significantly.
For this (hig revving engines), stiffer springs will def be needed. There aren’t many choices, but mantapart.com has em as well as rsmracing.com and jbodyperformance.com. howell automotive is working on the springs for a 2200 so there should be some options.
Rocker arms for the 2200 2.2 and 2.2 can be upgraded to roller tip ones. The dohc engines don’t deal with rocker arms I believe. But for the 2.2-ohv engines:
If you have a 95-97 engine (may work on the older 2.2ohv from 93 or 94 as well) go here: http://www.ny-jbodies.org/forum/library/How2/2.2rockerarm.htm
If you have a 98-02 2.2 ohv or more commonly known as the 2200, go here: http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=215049&t=209576#reply_215049
Pushrods are another upgrade and crane will be working with Howell automotive for those I suspect. I donated 4 of them so they have some to work with. Hopefully like the rocker arms a good turnout will occur. If you need a custom set made for other engines, you can try getting custom made ones from crane or crower, crane is the company as right now I prefer, but preference is up to the individual and how fast or long it will take to make em.
Pistons and Connecting Rods are two of the main 3 major moving parts of the lower end/bottom end.
With rods you can get them from a variety of places such as:
http://www.Crower.com
http://www.JEpistons.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
http://www.RSMracing.com
http://www.Mantapart.com
http://www.Rksport.com
http://www.Jbodyperformance.com
http://www.cavalierconnection.com
when ordering pistons you are usually able to choose the compression that you will want them it. Keep in mind you can get anything in a custom order.
Another option to new pistons is to get a set of used or new ones from a stock engine and cryotreat em. Its cost effective, but not many go that route.
Hope that helps!
TunerAdept
02-24-2005, 01:57 PM
this was very informative, thankyou :)
faceless422
04-14-2005, 12:22 AM
Id say the shiftkit from b n m is the best cheap mod...a definate must you can get one at www.turbotechracing.com
cavyshack
05-07-2005, 07:04 PM
well i got a 93 cav with the 2.2l 3 speed overdrive its the same motor in the 95-99 cavs but i dunno about tranny do they sell a b and m shift kit for my car does anyone know please link me a web site very important to me thanks
-Jayson-
05-07-2005, 11:35 PM
there is no b&m shift kit for a the 3 speed
cavyshack
05-08-2005, 06:58 AM
well i dont matter cause my car shifts from fist to second at 48 mph and second to third 89 and so on
caviman69
05-09-2005, 07:22 PM
Im new and this is my first reply to this forum. I just want to say thanks for all the info kustmace
Classicrocjunkie
05-09-2005, 10:10 PM
Thank "Event" or Art P. on JBO for all that info. Tim just copied the sticky from JBO to here.
Seazar
08-16-2005, 09:38 AM
I was wondering what that guy was running for his exhuast cuz I love the way it sounds and would like my 99 to sound just like it.
WS-Enterprise
02-20-2006, 09:47 AM
very informitive thanks KustmAce (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=142325)
lostconcept
03-09-2006, 03:10 PM
i would also like to know what exhaust system that guy has, i love the sound of it
ottobburg
04-05-2006, 05:45 PM
thanks for the info
brodycog
09-11-2007, 06:15 PM
You can also add under drive pullies. For a ld9 2.4 you can do the 2.3 oil pump swap or get the jbp nuetral balance shaft.
komeko
05-16-2008, 01:35 PM
KustomAce wrote:
"There isn’t a BEST exhaust pipe size per car, bills dynos show one thing, others have shown differently and a reputable company such as magnaflow (http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic276025.htm#) makes theirs in 2.25, not 2.5, turbo benefit from different sizes and people with nitrous will do better with another."
Please provide links to any dyno tests provided by Magnaflow to support the performance or power improvement of their product. Your statement asserts that the mere fact that Magnaflow sells a 2 1/4 inch diameter exhaust for the Cavalier, that this fact alone indicates some level of research, testing, or proof that this smaller size is superior. But this is not proof at all. What other considerations might have been more influential to Magnaflow's decision? Price per foot of pipe? Increased labor costs and production time because larger pipe is more difficult to bend? Marketability to a demographic that erroneously believes the smaller pipe is better? All of these are profit concerns with nothing to do with the effectiveness of Magnaflow’s product.
If you are going to assert that there is no clear answer to the correct pipe size for a performance exhaust for a Cavalier, please provide proof in the form of dyno tests to support your claim, because the only existing published dyno test shows your assertion is wrong.
"There isn’t a BEST exhaust pipe size per car, bills dynos show one thing, others have shown differently and a reputable company such as magnaflow (http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic276025.htm#) makes theirs in 2.25, not 2.5, turbo benefit from different sizes and people with nitrous will do better with another."
Please provide links to any dyno tests provided by Magnaflow to support the performance or power improvement of their product. Your statement asserts that the mere fact that Magnaflow sells a 2 1/4 inch diameter exhaust for the Cavalier, that this fact alone indicates some level of research, testing, or proof that this smaller size is superior. But this is not proof at all. What other considerations might have been more influential to Magnaflow's decision? Price per foot of pipe? Increased labor costs and production time because larger pipe is more difficult to bend? Marketability to a demographic that erroneously believes the smaller pipe is better? All of these are profit concerns with nothing to do with the effectiveness of Magnaflow’s product.
If you are going to assert that there is no clear answer to the correct pipe size for a performance exhaust for a Cavalier, please provide proof in the form of dyno tests to support your claim, because the only existing published dyno test shows your assertion is wrong.
komeko
05-27-2008, 10:25 AM
KustmAce has 7600+ posts, which works out to five (5) posts per day, and is a moderator of this website. One would think that he would have the courage or decency to defend his own posts, even if he just cut and pasted something from someone else, he would have to have cut and pasted something he believed, especially given that he also made it a "sticky" post to sit at the top of the forum forever.
I am going to suggest that the inaccurate information in at least one key part of the post by KustmAce, deems that portion of the information totally worthless, and the remainder deserving of extreme suspicion, if it is just as inaccurate as the information that can be proven wrong.
There isn’t a BEST exhaust pipe size per car, bills dynos show one thing, others have shown differently and a reputable company such as magnaflow makes theirs in 2.25, not 2.5, turbo benefit from different sizes and people with nitrous will do better with another.
I will ask yet again, where are all these dyno tests.
For the last decade, I have been listening to people boldly claim they have seen or know of dyno tests to prove that smaller pipe makes more power, or that engines need backpressure to make more power. To date, I have seen none.
KustmAce claims that there are tests specifically showing smaller pipe works better for Chevy engines, specifically that other companies making exhaust systems for Cavalier have done and have published dyno tests to show this.
Where are they?
I went down the list of links KustmAce provided, here's what I found:
http://www.magnaflow.com (http://www.magnaflow.com/) - Tested their exhaust system only on Ecotec engine (http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/dynos/15761.jpg , This test shows the same results as the Bill's test of Magnaflow PN 15761 on the Quad Four engine in their comparison test.). Can provide no comparison or development documentation showing any testing on any pipe size other than the pipe size of their product, can show no evidence that they even tested 2 1/2 inch pipe on this engine. HAS NO DYNO TEST FOR 2.2 OHV ENGINE AT ALL.
http://www.thermalrd.com/about.htm - Declined to provide a dyno test when asked.
http://www.borla.com (http://www.borla.com/) - Declined to provide a dyno test when asked.
http://www.rsmracing.com (http://www.rsmracing.com/) - This domain name for sale.
http://www.mantapart.com (http://www.mantapart.com/) - Declined to provide any dyno test when asked.
http://carcustoms.net/store/ - No website at all, 404 error.
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php - This domain name for sale.
http://www.howellautomotive.com (http://www.howellautomotive.com/) - Sells the Magnafolw product only, has no testing to show.
http://www.cavalierconnection.com (http://www.cavalierconnection.com/) - This domain name for sale.
Further research netted similar results:
http://www.obxracingsports.com/ - Advertises that their product is "Dyno Proven", but declines to provide the dyno test results when asked.
Oddly enough, the only place publishing any dyno comparison testing is:
http://www.iperformance.com at http://www.iperformance.biz/dyno/exhaust01.html
This is a comparison of the Magnaflow PN 15761 against the Iperformance PN SHBILL14B. Both are mandrel bent. Both use Magnaflow mufflers that are straight through and the same size. The difference is that the 15761 is 2 1/4 inch pipe and the SHBILL14B is 2 1/2 inch pipe. The 15761 tests show nearly identical to Magnaflow's own test, possibly the Magnaflow dyno is slightly more generous. The SHBILL14B shows 2.6 HP over the 15761, and the only difference between the two is the diameter of the pipe. When tested, bigger is better, and for Cavalier, 2 1/2 is right.
For exhaust system information to paste, it might be enlightening to see how the rest of the world is laughing at us because so many cavalier owners in our midst don't have any concept of exhaust system design:
http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/tech/exhaust.html
For non-turbo engines under 2.4 liter in displacement and turbocharged engines under 2.2 liter displacement and producing less than 400 HP, 2 1/2 inch mandrel bent exhaust pipe size is optimum for high performance. 2 1/4 inch pipe can limit air flow once the engine buildup gets serious and the owner has bolted on more than header, intake, and pulley.
Many people will claim that 2 1/2 looses torque, but this is not true.
As discussed earlier, all of the tuning for torque is done between the head and the final collector, in the header. After the final collector, the only thing determined by pipe diameter is how much work the engine has to do to push the exhaust gas to the back end of the car and out the tail pipe, and the less work the engine has to do, the more power it can produce.
The people advocating 2 1/4 inch diameter exhaust systems and complaining about low end power loss are also using 4-1 headers. This isn't unique to Storms, it is a serious misconception among the Cavalier/Sunfire crowd as well. These people are compensating for poor header design by strangling down the exhaust pipe diameter at the expense of mid and upper RPM engine performance.
All of this has been specific to mandrel bent pipe. Squeeze bent pipe looses 1/3 of its interior cross sectional area in a right angle bend. There are three right angle bends in the exhaust system of both the Storm and the I-Mark.
Mandrel pipe bending keeps a consistent inside diameter of the pipe through right angle and even U bends.
2 1/2 inch diameter squeeze bent pipe will flow the equivalent of 1.6 inch diameter pipe at each of those squeeze bends. The entire exhaust system will flow only as much as the tightest constriction in flow, meaning that all of the 2 1/2 inch pipe has been a waste, the total system will flow the same as a 1.6 inch diameter mandrel bent exhaust system.
To build a 2 1/2 inch diameter system using squeeze bent pipe, every bend would have to be made using 3 1/2 inch diameter pipe to compensate for the inside space lost from the squeeze bend. This means that the straight sections of pipe would be 2 1/2 inch pipe, then expanded to 3 1/2 inch bends for each and every curve, and then turned back down to 2 1/2 inch pipe for the straight pipe until the next bend.
The evidence stacks up rather high against KustmAce and his source for the post he pasted here and made sticky. Hopefully, other forum users will scroll down past his post to see the evidence that proves his statements wrong.
I am going to suggest that the inaccurate information in at least one key part of the post by KustmAce, deems that portion of the information totally worthless, and the remainder deserving of extreme suspicion, if it is just as inaccurate as the information that can be proven wrong.
There isn’t a BEST exhaust pipe size per car, bills dynos show one thing, others have shown differently and a reputable company such as magnaflow makes theirs in 2.25, not 2.5, turbo benefit from different sizes and people with nitrous will do better with another.
I will ask yet again, where are all these dyno tests.
For the last decade, I have been listening to people boldly claim they have seen or know of dyno tests to prove that smaller pipe makes more power, or that engines need backpressure to make more power. To date, I have seen none.
KustmAce claims that there are tests specifically showing smaller pipe works better for Chevy engines, specifically that other companies making exhaust systems for Cavalier have done and have published dyno tests to show this.
Where are they?
I went down the list of links KustmAce provided, here's what I found:
http://www.magnaflow.com (http://www.magnaflow.com/) - Tested their exhaust system only on Ecotec engine (http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/dynos/15761.jpg , This test shows the same results as the Bill's test of Magnaflow PN 15761 on the Quad Four engine in their comparison test.). Can provide no comparison or development documentation showing any testing on any pipe size other than the pipe size of their product, can show no evidence that they even tested 2 1/2 inch pipe on this engine. HAS NO DYNO TEST FOR 2.2 OHV ENGINE AT ALL.
http://www.thermalrd.com/about.htm - Declined to provide a dyno test when asked.
http://www.borla.com (http://www.borla.com/) - Declined to provide a dyno test when asked.
http://www.rsmracing.com (http://www.rsmracing.com/) - This domain name for sale.
http://www.mantapart.com (http://www.mantapart.com/) - Declined to provide any dyno test when asked.
http://carcustoms.net/store/ - No website at all, 404 error.
http://highrevmotorsports.com/catalog/default.php - This domain name for sale.
http://www.howellautomotive.com (http://www.howellautomotive.com/) - Sells the Magnafolw product only, has no testing to show.
http://www.cavalierconnection.com (http://www.cavalierconnection.com/) - This domain name for sale.
Further research netted similar results:
http://www.obxracingsports.com/ - Advertises that their product is "Dyno Proven", but declines to provide the dyno test results when asked.
Oddly enough, the only place publishing any dyno comparison testing is:
http://www.iperformance.com at http://www.iperformance.biz/dyno/exhaust01.html
This is a comparison of the Magnaflow PN 15761 against the Iperformance PN SHBILL14B. Both are mandrel bent. Both use Magnaflow mufflers that are straight through and the same size. The difference is that the 15761 is 2 1/4 inch pipe and the SHBILL14B is 2 1/2 inch pipe. The 15761 tests show nearly identical to Magnaflow's own test, possibly the Magnaflow dyno is slightly more generous. The SHBILL14B shows 2.6 HP over the 15761, and the only difference between the two is the diameter of the pipe. When tested, bigger is better, and for Cavalier, 2 1/2 is right.
For exhaust system information to paste, it might be enlightening to see how the rest of the world is laughing at us because so many cavalier owners in our midst don't have any concept of exhaust system design:
http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/tech/exhaust.html
For non-turbo engines under 2.4 liter in displacement and turbocharged engines under 2.2 liter displacement and producing less than 400 HP, 2 1/2 inch mandrel bent exhaust pipe size is optimum for high performance. 2 1/4 inch pipe can limit air flow once the engine buildup gets serious and the owner has bolted on more than header, intake, and pulley.
Many people will claim that 2 1/2 looses torque, but this is not true.
As discussed earlier, all of the tuning for torque is done between the head and the final collector, in the header. After the final collector, the only thing determined by pipe diameter is how much work the engine has to do to push the exhaust gas to the back end of the car and out the tail pipe, and the less work the engine has to do, the more power it can produce.
The people advocating 2 1/4 inch diameter exhaust systems and complaining about low end power loss are also using 4-1 headers. This isn't unique to Storms, it is a serious misconception among the Cavalier/Sunfire crowd as well. These people are compensating for poor header design by strangling down the exhaust pipe diameter at the expense of mid and upper RPM engine performance.
All of this has been specific to mandrel bent pipe. Squeeze bent pipe looses 1/3 of its interior cross sectional area in a right angle bend. There are three right angle bends in the exhaust system of both the Storm and the I-Mark.
Mandrel pipe bending keeps a consistent inside diameter of the pipe through right angle and even U bends.
2 1/2 inch diameter squeeze bent pipe will flow the equivalent of 1.6 inch diameter pipe at each of those squeeze bends. The entire exhaust system will flow only as much as the tightest constriction in flow, meaning that all of the 2 1/2 inch pipe has been a waste, the total system will flow the same as a 1.6 inch diameter mandrel bent exhaust system.
To build a 2 1/2 inch diameter system using squeeze bent pipe, every bend would have to be made using 3 1/2 inch diameter pipe to compensate for the inside space lost from the squeeze bend. This means that the straight sections of pipe would be 2 1/2 inch pipe, then expanded to 3 1/2 inch bends for each and every curve, and then turned back down to 2 1/2 inch pipe for the straight pipe until the next bend.
The evidence stacks up rather high against KustmAce and his source for the post he pasted here and made sticky. Hopefully, other forum users will scroll down past his post to see the evidence that proves his statements wrong.
Classicrocjunkie
05-27-2008, 11:18 AM
All cars will react differently to mods. I don't go by Dyno sheets and what they say for other cars, because its highly unlikely you'll pull the exact same numbers.
komeko
05-28-2008, 05:26 PM
All cars will react differently to mods. I don't go by Dyno sheets and what they say for other cars, because its highly unlikely you'll pull the exact same numbers.
If you want to debate the validity of dyno testing or what can be learned from looking at the consistent results that show that 2 1/2 inch pipe is the minimum appropriate size for four cylinder engines as small as 1.8 or 1.6 liter, that might be the good start of another thread. You could throw in how you got the idea to put a turbocharger on your J-Body, since GM never put one on the car to begin with, and whoever built your turbo kit adapted technology learned from other vehicles to your specific car.
The original post accepts the validity of dyno testing, but claims that there is conflicting results from multiple sources. So far as can be found, there are two (2) total dyno tests for Cavalier (one by Magnaflow of their own product and one by Iperformance testing their own product and Magnaflow's product), both show consistent results, there is no disagreement, and the results show that 2 1/2 inch pipe makes more power than 2 1/4.
If there are multiple results, conflicting dyno results, or any other results at all, post them to support the claims. If not, this should not be a stickied thread and accurate information should be provided to replace the original post in this thread.
If you want to debate the validity of dyno testing or what can be learned from looking at the consistent results that show that 2 1/2 inch pipe is the minimum appropriate size for four cylinder engines as small as 1.8 or 1.6 liter, that might be the good start of another thread. You could throw in how you got the idea to put a turbocharger on your J-Body, since GM never put one on the car to begin with, and whoever built your turbo kit adapted technology learned from other vehicles to your specific car.
The original post accepts the validity of dyno testing, but claims that there is conflicting results from multiple sources. So far as can be found, there are two (2) total dyno tests for Cavalier (one by Magnaflow of their own product and one by Iperformance testing their own product and Magnaflow's product), both show consistent results, there is no disagreement, and the results show that 2 1/2 inch pipe makes more power than 2 1/4.
If there are multiple results, conflicting dyno results, or any other results at all, post them to support the claims. If not, this should not be a stickied thread and accurate information should be provided to replace the original post in this thread.
Classicrocjunkie
05-28-2008, 10:51 PM
If you are poking directly at me, I'd suggest you not. I have 7 yrs experience working with these cars alone. Also many of the sticky's on here were transfered over from www.j-body.org and the few in which I did, I gave credit where it was due to the original posters. If you bring this argument over onto their forums, don't be surprised if you get flamed. But on here, things are a little more relaxed.
If you want to re-write something to be stickied, do so. Anybody on here is welcome to write up something useful and if it is deemed worthy, it can become a sticky. Submit it to me and I will send it to the person above me in moderating abilities to look it over and approve it. Or if you want, re-write this whole sticky which seems to be what you are after. I have no objections...
Also... GM DOES make a turbo kit (03-05 ecotec) and a super charger kit for our cars ( 00+ 2.4L & ecotec 03-05)
GM p/n - 17800003 Ecotec Intercooled Supercharger Kit For 2.2L (L61 Ecotec Engine) Engine Fits 2003-2005 Chevy Cavalier & Pontiac Sunfire
03+ Saab Aero 93 2.0t - Order the turbo manifold and turbo itself, oil lines, down pipe, and charge pipes which need a little modification and there is your kit. Direct bolt up.
If you want to re-write something to be stickied, do so. Anybody on here is welcome to write up something useful and if it is deemed worthy, it can become a sticky. Submit it to me and I will send it to the person above me in moderating abilities to look it over and approve it. Or if you want, re-write this whole sticky which seems to be what you are after. I have no objections...
Also... GM DOES make a turbo kit (03-05 ecotec) and a super charger kit for our cars ( 00+ 2.4L & ecotec 03-05)
GM p/n - 17800003 Ecotec Intercooled Supercharger Kit For 2.2L (L61 Ecotec Engine) Engine Fits 2003-2005 Chevy Cavalier & Pontiac Sunfire
03+ Saab Aero 93 2.0t - Order the turbo manifold and turbo itself, oil lines, down pipe, and charge pipes which need a little modification and there is your kit. Direct bolt up.
komeko
05-29-2008, 08:04 AM
If you are poking directly at me, I'd suggest you not. I have 7 yrs experience working with these cars alone. Also many of the sticky's on here were transfered over from www.j-body.org (http://www.j-body.org) and the few in which I did, I gave credit where it was due to the original posters. If you bring this argument over onto their forums, don't be surprised if you get flamed. But on here, things are a little more relaxed.
If you want to re-write something to be stickied, do so. Anybody on here is welcome to write up something useful and if it is deemed worthy, it can become a sticky. Submit it to me and I will send it to the person above me in moderating abilities to look it over and approve it. Or if you want, re-write this whole sticky which seems to be what you are after. I have no objections...
Also... GM DOES make a turbo kit (03-05 ecotec) and a super charger kit for our cars ( 00+ 2.4L & ecotec 03-05)
GM p/n - 17800003 Ecotec Intercooled Supercharger Kit For 2.2L (L61 Ecotec Engine) Engine Fits 2003-2005 Chevy Cavalier & Pontiac Sunfire
03+ Saab Aero 93 2.0t - Order the turbo manifold and turbo itself, oil lines, down pipe, and charge pipes which need a little modification and there is your kit. Direct bolt up.
You made a post with content that indicated you do not believe the science of dyno testing and doubt that anything can be learned from looking at the performance gains in other vehicles. I pointed out that your own signature, which cites forced induction modifications, contradicts your statement. GM did not invent turbochargers and turbochargers have been in existence before the year 2003 and the GM part numbers you provide:
The turbocharger was invented by Swiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) engineer Alfred Büchi. His patent for a turbo charger was applied for use in 1905. (http://www.gizmag.com/go/4848/)
GM is late by 98 years.
The first Turbo-Diesel truck was produced by the "Schweizer Maschinenfabrik Saurer" (Swiss Machine Works Saurer) 1938 [1] (http://www.turbodriven.com/en/turbofacts/default.aspx). The turbocharger hit the automobile world in 1952 when Fred Agabashian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Agabashian) qualified for pole position at the Indianapolis 500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_500) and led for 100 miles (160 km) before tire shards disabled the blower.
That leads GM by 65 years.
The first functional supercharger can be attributed to German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) engineer Gottlieb Daimler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler) who received a German patent for supercharging an internal combustion engine in 1885.
That’s a 118 year lead to Daimler, a manufacturer of other automobiles.
The point that was made, that you missed, is that even the maker of our cars looks at what works on other vehicles made by other manufacturers and uses that knowledge to make our cars. To say that nothing can be learned from looking at the consistent body of knowledge in the performance tuning world, all of which says 2 ¼ inch pipe is too small for engines even smaller than 2 liters in displacement, is hypocritical.
I did not point this out before, but will now. You link to a company website: http://www.rdfabs.com/
They proudly claim:
“The addition of a RDFabs Short Ram Intake to a 2006 BMW 530xi proven to increase horsepower output by 6 HP and increase fuel mileage by 3 mpg.”
But there is no dyno sheet to be found on their website. You’ve already said you doubt the science of dyno testing. So did RDFab dyno test their product and just not post the results? Did they stand next to the car and guess based on the engine sound? Or are they just making another unverified statement that no one can verify, just like OBX and probably also Thermal R&D, Mantapart, Borla, four other “reputable” companies who no longer have their domain names, and the group of people claiming that there is some dyno, somewhere, by someone, who proved that smaller pipe makes more power, but no one quite knows where that evidence is and everyone conveniently lost the link?
I have simply pointed out the contradictions you put into the box in your reply in the thread. If you want to make it a personal insult war and compare years of experience and education level, that is your prerogative, but not why I pointed out that the stickied original post contains information that is completely and totally false and should either be defended by the writer and poster or removed in the face of the overwhelming evidence against it.
I will gladly rewrite the exhaust section of the original post, correct the inaccuracies, and paste the revised file into this thread so that you can take it to the powers that be for approval and posting.
If you want to re-write something to be stickied, do so. Anybody on here is welcome to write up something useful and if it is deemed worthy, it can become a sticky. Submit it to me and I will send it to the person above me in moderating abilities to look it over and approve it. Or if you want, re-write this whole sticky which seems to be what you are after. I have no objections...
Also... GM DOES make a turbo kit (03-05 ecotec) and a super charger kit for our cars ( 00+ 2.4L & ecotec 03-05)
GM p/n - 17800003 Ecotec Intercooled Supercharger Kit For 2.2L (L61 Ecotec Engine) Engine Fits 2003-2005 Chevy Cavalier & Pontiac Sunfire
03+ Saab Aero 93 2.0t - Order the turbo manifold and turbo itself, oil lines, down pipe, and charge pipes which need a little modification and there is your kit. Direct bolt up.
You made a post with content that indicated you do not believe the science of dyno testing and doubt that anything can be learned from looking at the performance gains in other vehicles. I pointed out that your own signature, which cites forced induction modifications, contradicts your statement. GM did not invent turbochargers and turbochargers have been in existence before the year 2003 and the GM part numbers you provide:
The turbocharger was invented by Swiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) engineer Alfred Büchi. His patent for a turbo charger was applied for use in 1905. (http://www.gizmag.com/go/4848/)
GM is late by 98 years.
The first Turbo-Diesel truck was produced by the "Schweizer Maschinenfabrik Saurer" (Swiss Machine Works Saurer) 1938 [1] (http://www.turbodriven.com/en/turbofacts/default.aspx). The turbocharger hit the automobile world in 1952 when Fred Agabashian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Agabashian) qualified for pole position at the Indianapolis 500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_500) and led for 100 miles (160 km) before tire shards disabled the blower.
That leads GM by 65 years.
The first functional supercharger can be attributed to German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) engineer Gottlieb Daimler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler) who received a German patent for supercharging an internal combustion engine in 1885.
That’s a 118 year lead to Daimler, a manufacturer of other automobiles.
The point that was made, that you missed, is that even the maker of our cars looks at what works on other vehicles made by other manufacturers and uses that knowledge to make our cars. To say that nothing can be learned from looking at the consistent body of knowledge in the performance tuning world, all of which says 2 ¼ inch pipe is too small for engines even smaller than 2 liters in displacement, is hypocritical.
I did not point this out before, but will now. You link to a company website: http://www.rdfabs.com/
They proudly claim:
“The addition of a RDFabs Short Ram Intake to a 2006 BMW 530xi proven to increase horsepower output by 6 HP and increase fuel mileage by 3 mpg.”
But there is no dyno sheet to be found on their website. You’ve already said you doubt the science of dyno testing. So did RDFab dyno test their product and just not post the results? Did they stand next to the car and guess based on the engine sound? Or are they just making another unverified statement that no one can verify, just like OBX and probably also Thermal R&D, Mantapart, Borla, four other “reputable” companies who no longer have their domain names, and the group of people claiming that there is some dyno, somewhere, by someone, who proved that smaller pipe makes more power, but no one quite knows where that evidence is and everyone conveniently lost the link?
I have simply pointed out the contradictions you put into the box in your reply in the thread. If you want to make it a personal insult war and compare years of experience and education level, that is your prerogative, but not why I pointed out that the stickied original post contains information that is completely and totally false and should either be defended by the writer and poster or removed in the face of the overwhelming evidence against it.
I will gladly rewrite the exhaust section of the original post, correct the inaccuracies, and paste the revised file into this thread so that you can take it to the powers that be for approval and posting.
Classicrocjunkie
05-29-2008, 11:03 PM
I don't think you originally got my intended point. I do not object to dyno usage for tuning a vehicle, But Let me break it down for you what I was trying to get at...
Lets use this situation for example.
X company says, "my product will gain you X amount of HP with X mod." Therefore it is valid to conclude that from what this company says you will gain X amount of HP when you add X as a mod. In theory.... Is this done on a completely stock car, are there other mods done, what are the air temps, elevation, Is the car running rich/ lean, etc? I've never seen that thorough of information disclosed on any company's website who provides dyno numbers with their products.
Someone in Colorado buys a K&N intake, and installed it on their j-body K&N claims it will give you X HP. Due to the elevation, it made 3hp LESS than K&N claimed, while another person in Jersey installed the same intake on an identical mustang and made 2 HP MORE than what they claimed. There are too many variables which throw off these numbers, even if they average the mean from a few runs.
Now here is my case....
Now here is this. My old motor 2.2l OHV had a CAI, long tube 4-1 header and a flowed out 2.5" exhaust, upgraded ignition. Howell automotive claimed you should expect a gain of at least 8hp with the Crane roller rockers.
http://www.howellautomotive.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=7
Before I installed these, I dyno'd 105whp/ 134 tq.
After I pulled 117hp/142tq
I gained 12whp, and 7ftlbs tq.
My friend Chris, mod for mod except he was running a 4-2-1 header.
Before 107whp/135tq
After - 113whp/147tq
I will dig up the dyno sheets if they are still on our work computer. I'll have to check with Cherie as the computer was just upgraded to Vista. (POS IMO) Both cars were run under the same conditions, same Dyno jet, mine was a 99 and his was a 00 sunfire.
.... and this is my point I was trying to make...
All cars will react differently to mods. I don't go by Dyno sheets and what they say for other cars, because its highly unlikely you'll pull the exact same numbers.
So X company can say I will gain X with their mod, I don't believe it because all cars will react differently, and other mods will also cause a change in potential outcomes. Thus, I refuse to acknowledge these claimed Gains.
... and as far as the BMW goes, A customer dyno'd his own car afterwards, and thats what he reported back to us. I can see if he has a dyno sheet or if I can acquire one from the speed/tuning shop we tune our cars at.
and honestly, no one who really would benefit from this knowledge about dynos, is going to even read all this. No one even uses the damn search button on here, let alone read the stickies.
I am done arguing over this, because it's just going to be a me vs. you and I have no need to become hated even if its over a web forum. If you want to re-write something still feel free, and I'll send it over to Tim.
Lets use this situation for example.
X company says, "my product will gain you X amount of HP with X mod." Therefore it is valid to conclude that from what this company says you will gain X amount of HP when you add X as a mod. In theory.... Is this done on a completely stock car, are there other mods done, what are the air temps, elevation, Is the car running rich/ lean, etc? I've never seen that thorough of information disclosed on any company's website who provides dyno numbers with their products.
Someone in Colorado buys a K&N intake, and installed it on their j-body K&N claims it will give you X HP. Due to the elevation, it made 3hp LESS than K&N claimed, while another person in Jersey installed the same intake on an identical mustang and made 2 HP MORE than what they claimed. There are too many variables which throw off these numbers, even if they average the mean from a few runs.
Now here is my case....
Now here is this. My old motor 2.2l OHV had a CAI, long tube 4-1 header and a flowed out 2.5" exhaust, upgraded ignition. Howell automotive claimed you should expect a gain of at least 8hp with the Crane roller rockers.
http://www.howellautomotive.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=7
Before I installed these, I dyno'd 105whp/ 134 tq.
After I pulled 117hp/142tq
I gained 12whp, and 7ftlbs tq.
My friend Chris, mod for mod except he was running a 4-2-1 header.
Before 107whp/135tq
After - 113whp/147tq
I will dig up the dyno sheets if they are still on our work computer. I'll have to check with Cherie as the computer was just upgraded to Vista. (POS IMO) Both cars were run under the same conditions, same Dyno jet, mine was a 99 and his was a 00 sunfire.
.... and this is my point I was trying to make...
All cars will react differently to mods. I don't go by Dyno sheets and what they say for other cars, because its highly unlikely you'll pull the exact same numbers.
So X company can say I will gain X with their mod, I don't believe it because all cars will react differently, and other mods will also cause a change in potential outcomes. Thus, I refuse to acknowledge these claimed Gains.
... and as far as the BMW goes, A customer dyno'd his own car afterwards, and thats what he reported back to us. I can see if he has a dyno sheet or if I can acquire one from the speed/tuning shop we tune our cars at.
and honestly, no one who really would benefit from this knowledge about dynos, is going to even read all this. No one even uses the damn search button on here, let alone read the stickies.
I am done arguing over this, because it's just going to be a me vs. you and I have no need to become hated even if its over a web forum. If you want to re-write something still feel free, and I'll send it over to Tim.
komeko
05-30-2008, 12:05 AM
I don't think you originally got my intended point. I do not object to dyno usage for tuning a vehicle, But Let me break it down for you what I was trying to get at...
Lets use this situation for example.
X company says, "my product will gain you X amount of HP with X mod." Therefore it is valid to conclude that from what this company says you will gain X amount of HP when you add X as a mod. In theory.... Is this done on a completely stock car, are there other mods done, what are the air temps, elevation, Is the car running rich/ lean, etc? I've never seen that thorough of information disclosed on any company's website who provides dyno numbers with their products.
Well, somebody did disclose that information:
http://www.iperformance.biz/dyno/exhaust01.html
We were lucky enough to find a volunteer locally, Lenny Kean of Wentzville, Missouri, who graciously donated the use of his 2001 Chevrolet Cavalier Z24 car for the testing. Lenny's car is basically stock, the only modifications being a fiberglass hood, Eibach lowering springs, and a polished stainless steel straight through type muffler spliced onto the stock piping in place of the original equipment chambered muffler. We would return the car to the stock pipe with the stock muffler for the baseline numbers…
That’s the list of modifications to the car you mentioned.
The machinery measures the air temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure, so that it can correct the results for the atmospheric conditions. This corrects the results to SAE, which is what we have used in all of our comparisons.
Converting the results over to SAE negates the variables of temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and altitude.
But, just for the sake of argument, a Google search:
http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/genInfo.php?locIndex=20359 Elevation is 922 feet.
Another Google search using the zip code cited as the dyno location at the bottom of the page:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSUS/2001/11/9/DailyHistory.html?req_city=High+Ridge&req_state=MO&req_statename=Missouri November 9, 2001, 5:54 PM – 42 degrees, 76% relative humidity, 30.34 inches of mercury
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSUS/2001/11/13/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA November 13, 2001, 5:54 PM – 60 degrees, 49% relative humidity, 30.15 inches of mercury
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSUS/2001/11/14/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA November 14, 2001, 5:54 PM – 63 degrees, 65% relative humidity, 30.15 inches of mercury
The Magnaflow test contains no information of date, place, etc.
The one company providing any comparison testing seems to have also fulfilled your qualifications of details needed to scrutinize the test, and with the help of a few quick google searches, you have elevation, temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure, even though the explanation of the test says the results have been converted to SAE to take those variables out. And the original stickied post basically attacks the only company providing all of that information so that you can scrutinize their test.
Lets use this situation for example.
X company says, "my product will gain you X amount of HP with X mod." Therefore it is valid to conclude that from what this company says you will gain X amount of HP when you add X as a mod. In theory.... Is this done on a completely stock car, are there other mods done, what are the air temps, elevation, Is the car running rich/ lean, etc? I've never seen that thorough of information disclosed on any company's website who provides dyno numbers with their products.
Well, somebody did disclose that information:
http://www.iperformance.biz/dyno/exhaust01.html
We were lucky enough to find a volunteer locally, Lenny Kean of Wentzville, Missouri, who graciously donated the use of his 2001 Chevrolet Cavalier Z24 car for the testing. Lenny's car is basically stock, the only modifications being a fiberglass hood, Eibach lowering springs, and a polished stainless steel straight through type muffler spliced onto the stock piping in place of the original equipment chambered muffler. We would return the car to the stock pipe with the stock muffler for the baseline numbers…
That’s the list of modifications to the car you mentioned.
The machinery measures the air temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure, so that it can correct the results for the atmospheric conditions. This corrects the results to SAE, which is what we have used in all of our comparisons.
Converting the results over to SAE negates the variables of temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and altitude.
But, just for the sake of argument, a Google search:
http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/genInfo.php?locIndex=20359 Elevation is 922 feet.
Another Google search using the zip code cited as the dyno location at the bottom of the page:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSUS/2001/11/9/DailyHistory.html?req_city=High+Ridge&req_state=MO&req_statename=Missouri November 9, 2001, 5:54 PM – 42 degrees, 76% relative humidity, 30.34 inches of mercury
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSUS/2001/11/13/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA November 13, 2001, 5:54 PM – 60 degrees, 49% relative humidity, 30.15 inches of mercury
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSUS/2001/11/14/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA November 14, 2001, 5:54 PM – 63 degrees, 65% relative humidity, 30.15 inches of mercury
The Magnaflow test contains no information of date, place, etc.
The one company providing any comparison testing seems to have also fulfilled your qualifications of details needed to scrutinize the test, and with the help of a few quick google searches, you have elevation, temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure, even though the explanation of the test says the results have been converted to SAE to take those variables out. And the original stickied post basically attacks the only company providing all of that information so that you can scrutinize their test.
Mangoamerican
05-30-2008, 10:27 PM
i agree with both points. standardized testing is accurate.. but no two engines are the same
komeko
06-01-2008, 11:44 AM
i agree with both points. standardized testing is accurate.. but no two engines are the same
The 2.2 OHV engine is 134 CID and maximum engine speed is 6000 RPM. Each cylinder fires every other rotation. Ignoring expansion from heat, at maximum engine speed, the engine is pushing 402000 cubic inches of exhaust per minute. That’s 232.6 cubic feet of exhaust per minute.
Is it easier to push 232.6 cubic feet of air per minute through a 2 ¼ inch hole, or a 2 ½ inch hole?
What law of physics says that it is easier to push 232.6 cubic feet of air per minute through a smaller hole?
Is there a dyno sheet anywhere that shows any engine of or near 2.2 liter displacement produces more power with a smaller and more restrictive exhaust pipe?
What law of physics states that the Chevrolet 2.2 liter OHV engine violates the same laws that govern every other engine?
Engines are air pumps. All air pumps perform in a predictable and similar way. All air pumps of similar size and volume flow as the Chevrolet 2.2 liter OHV engine will and do perform and react to changes in air flow similarly and predictably. If 2 ¼ inch pipe provides a 4% power output improvement over 2 inch pipe, and 2 ½ inch pipe provides a 6% improvement over 2 inch, those ratios will remain constant, similar, and predictable for engines of the same or similar size and flow volume.
The 2.2 OHV engine is 134 CID and maximum engine speed is 6000 RPM. Each cylinder fires every other rotation. Ignoring expansion from heat, at maximum engine speed, the engine is pushing 402000 cubic inches of exhaust per minute. That’s 232.6 cubic feet of exhaust per minute.
Is it easier to push 232.6 cubic feet of air per minute through a 2 ¼ inch hole, or a 2 ½ inch hole?
What law of physics says that it is easier to push 232.6 cubic feet of air per minute through a smaller hole?
Is there a dyno sheet anywhere that shows any engine of or near 2.2 liter displacement produces more power with a smaller and more restrictive exhaust pipe?
What law of physics states that the Chevrolet 2.2 liter OHV engine violates the same laws that govern every other engine?
Engines are air pumps. All air pumps perform in a predictable and similar way. All air pumps of similar size and volume flow as the Chevrolet 2.2 liter OHV engine will and do perform and react to changes in air flow similarly and predictably. If 2 ¼ inch pipe provides a 4% power output improvement over 2 inch pipe, and 2 ½ inch pipe provides a 6% improvement over 2 inch, those ratios will remain constant, similar, and predictable for engines of the same or similar size and flow volume.
Classicrocjunkie
06-01-2008, 04:02 PM
Are you an engineer or something?
Jacfourteen
06-01-2008, 04:03 PM
Whoa, someone has too much time on their hands!
lamehonda
06-01-2008, 04:53 PM
I guess it was either Masturabating for 2 hours or posting here. He was probably out of lube.
Classicrocjunkie
06-01-2008, 08:04 PM
Whoa, someone has too much time on their hands!
Or extremely thorough on their researching before they buy something.
Or extremely thorough on their researching before they buy something.
Mangoamerican
06-02-2008, 12:16 PM
its not that you "cant" accept more output from a larger pipe, it just wont have the same force.. you would need more mass trying to get out in order to utilize a larger pipe (larger combustion chamber with more air in it)
Mangoamerican
06-02-2008, 12:21 PM
oh, and the formula is force=mass X acceleration
komeko
06-02-2008, 06:08 PM
its not that you "cant" accept more output from a larger pipe, it just wont have the same force.. you would need more mass trying to get out in order to utilize a larger pipe (larger combustion chamber with more air in it)
No, it's the fact that the exhaust flow is being restricted and limited by the 2 1/4 inch diameter pipe.
My calculation of 402000 cubic inches per minute also ignores the change in volume when the intake air is changed from air with a spray of gasoline into carbon dioxide and water vapor. That's the explosion that propels the piston down and the exhaust gas volume is several times larger than 402000 cubic inches per minute, which is the volume of the intake charge.
The example still illustrates the obscenely large amount of exhaust gas that is being pushed down the exhaust pipe.
It is totally erroneous to claim "engines need backpressure" and the false statement that "engines loose torque when the exhaust pipe is too big". If this were true, there would be a bell curve where the engine output peaked with one pipe and began loosing power with each progressive step larger.
But there is no bell curve. In fact, all of the dyno testing done shows exactly the opposite, that the lower the backpressure and the larger the pipe, the more power the engine makes, because less power is wasted pushing the exhaust down the pipe and out behind the rear bumper.
No, it's the fact that the exhaust flow is being restricted and limited by the 2 1/4 inch diameter pipe.
My calculation of 402000 cubic inches per minute also ignores the change in volume when the intake air is changed from air with a spray of gasoline into carbon dioxide and water vapor. That's the explosion that propels the piston down and the exhaust gas volume is several times larger than 402000 cubic inches per minute, which is the volume of the intake charge.
The example still illustrates the obscenely large amount of exhaust gas that is being pushed down the exhaust pipe.
It is totally erroneous to claim "engines need backpressure" and the false statement that "engines loose torque when the exhaust pipe is too big". If this were true, there would be a bell curve where the engine output peaked with one pipe and began loosing power with each progressive step larger.
But there is no bell curve. In fact, all of the dyno testing done shows exactly the opposite, that the lower the backpressure and the larger the pipe, the more power the engine makes, because less power is wasted pushing the exhaust down the pipe and out behind the rear bumper.
bondo07
06-26-2008, 01:33 AM
So far, I haven't had time to really read in deapth, but I skimmed over this thread and all i see is for ecotecs and older 2.2s. I haven't seen anything about the 3.1 yet. I got a 92 cavi with the 3.1 MPFI with a short cold air intake, an 89 5spd tranny and 2 1/4" exhaust with only a resonator and glasspack. No Catt. It's loud, mean, and fast, but I can't find any links for moderately priced performance parts for this motor. Could use some help.
http://www.msnusers.com/i7g05p9rumuomgnecuorjfhq20/Documents/06-18-08_0655.jpg
http://www.msnusers.com/i7g05p9rumuomgnecuorjfhq20/Documents/06-18-08_0655.jpg
vipertoo1
03-27-2009, 06:19 PM
WoW great amount of tips THANX. But being a n00b my 98 cav RS has a top speed of 110 like most basic cavi's how can i increase it higher than 110 without engine swap? i seen some cavis with the same 2200 sfi engine that i have but there top speed is 220???
Alizxa
10-27-2010, 03:18 AM
Hi,g'day mate. assuming you practise this in a safe place first, the best way to get going fast is to "drop the clutch". basically you get your revs up to around 2400rpm and let the clutch out quickly but smoothly. any higher than 2400 - 2800 and you will most likely spin the wheels and screech off and not really go anywhere fast. Also depending on the type of car you have, less powerful cars need more revs, more powerful cars need less revs. If the roads wet i wouldn't do it, if youve got an FWD (front wheel drive) i'd avoid it because you could torque steer into someone. Hope this answers ur question :)
juliamarshal
12-13-2010, 06:32 AM
Wel i may suggest to use LExus..its quite fast and smooth car.....
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