Prototyping a prototype. Mazda 787b multimedia kit.

Hey guys, my first wip on this forum. This thread is already on spc, so don't worry if you think I'm plagiarizing someone else.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4167.jpg
Alec Tiranti post things quickly, as in: 21hrs.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4172.jpg
First thing, build up where the mould halves will sit, this takes a LOT longer then you'd imagine.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4174.jpg
building it up so you only get one half of the mould

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4175.jpg
In the mould former, putting a seam around the base of the model to prevent leakage
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4176.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4177.jpg
Mixing up the rubber with the hardener. The hardener smells really nice, like a fine south American lager, such as Brahma... which is what I'm drinking right now :lol:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4180.jpg
pouring the rubber on from a height removes most of the air bubbles, as a posed to a vacuum chamber and vacuum pump for £90 hire or £500 to buy.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4181.jpg
And here it is curing.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4183.jpg
taken the newplast out from the bottom, it's awaiting silicone to make the second part.

what other website is this on?

I know this is a rare model, that is why I have a second one, but is this molding of the body for making replacements or for another purpose?

what other website is this on?

I know this is a rare model, that is why I have a second one, but is this molding of the body for making replacements or for another purpose?

It's on SPC.org.uk

I'm casting it because I'm planning on producing a model kit in a small quantity, MFH quality or better :biggrin:
Resin, PE, turned components, Vac formed glass and white metal.

Didn't Tamiya reissue the kit with Cartograf decals a few years ago?

I've been trying to find the Tamiya kit myself and haven't seen it available anywhere :frown:. Had no idea they reissued it. Looking forward to seeing how your moulds go and what you're going to do with all the mechanical parts.

I can't cover up my delusion: at my home "to prototype" meant prototype, not to clone...

BTW: good luck!

Tamiya reissued it, but then discontinued it. And it's very hard to find.

I can't cover up my delusion: at my home "to prototype" meant prototype, not to clone...

BTW: good luck!

lol, I know. I'm remoulding 2 of these, but that's it. It's just so I can get a base to start properly modifying it. Doors are coming off, bonnet is coming off, so I can build up a proper monocoque. Think of it as a first draft, not the final shape :smile:

and thank you

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4184.jpg
here's today's progress. Finishing the mould. It's so annoying that it took 1kg of silicone to make this, and it's still a bit on the thin side. And at £30 per tin of 1kg silicone, it is far from being cheap. I'll get a 5kg pot next time I think, cheaper to buy in bulk.

You may wonder why it's on top of my compressor, it's to vibrate the mould so that any bubbles in the silicone are removed from the surface of the master, so you don't get lumps in the casts.

Good news!
Bilstein suspension replied to my question for the use of their logo. They said: Dear Mr. Allcock,

please find enclosed our BILSTEIN logo as eps and jpg. file and also our colour sheet. No problem to use our logo.
:lol:

Lastly, I've been talking to Renaissance models, they said that they've never had a problem with licensing their products because of their small scale. Which works out great for me because hopefully I won't have to pay for licensing fees, and therefore makes the kit cheaper to produce :D
They also said that since Tamiya are re releasing many of their old kits they *might* reissue the 787B, no evidence of this though, but if that does happen I'll make it into a transkit.

Oh wow, if that is what your doing then I'm interested in the end result and probably wanting to order a kit from you:smile:

I really need to finish my first attempt at the kit original release bought in 94, still got the white striping to lay, and then the sponsor stickers.

If the re-issue was supposed to have PE parts then, the supplier on Ebay must have removed those parts from the second kit I bought in '04.

Hi, from a fellow SPC-er!

Hi, from a fellow SPC-er!
On SPC, do you all say "Hi, from a fellow AF-er!"? :grinno:

:tongue: Hi twenty!

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9364/img4185.jpg
Today's so far.
the mould is complete :D
I've also cut the fill holes.

I contacted Cartograf about decals, and they said that their minimum order is a run of 300. I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd be able to shift 300 kits, or find the time to cast 300! If each web store bought 2-3 kits each and I sold maybe 15 privately, that's nowhere near 300. I guess I could include a spare set of decals. But other that that I'm a bit stumped with the decals.
Maybe they'd run the order if I had
sheet a) main graphics
sheet b) sponsor logos
sheets c-e) carbon fiber decals
I guess it is a bit early to be thinking about decals and what not.

Final note,
If the kit came with a carbon fiber display base, how much more would you pay for the kit?
£1-2
£2-3
£3-4
£5-6
Or would you rather it was an optional extra?

I'm definitely interested in a trans kit. Managed to scoop up a 787B on ebay a year or so ago. Should make the carbon base an option though.

Thanks for sharing the technique, i think im going to get some of that newplast stuff. Any idea where to get it?

Also i guess if you do modify it then you can call it an altered kit. But prototyping is the wrong title. Maybe redesigned might fit it better. Also don't worry as many companies now a days copies each other.


Why Gio you guys didn't base the maxi off the tamiya renault 5 turbo?

Thanks for sharing the technique, i think im going to get some of that newplast stuff. Any idea where to get it?

Also i guess if you do modify it then you can call it an altered kit. But prototyping is the wrong title. Maybe redesigned might fit it better. Also don't worry as many companies now a days copies each other.


Why Gio you guys didn't base the maxi off the tamiya renault 5 turbo?

I got newplast from tiranti.co.uk, there's probably somewhere closer to where you are which sells it though.

I know what I'm currently doing is no where near prototyping yet, but this is only to get a base so I can start to prototype. The body part will be very, very different to the Tameeyah part when I've finished with it.

The body part will be very, very different to the Tameeyah part when I've finished with it.

Ok! I'm tuned!

Hello chaps.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4186.jpg
Supplies from Tiranti.co.uk
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4187.jpg
Mixing up the resin
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4188.jpg
Filling the mould
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4189.jpg
Beginner's luck or a natural :lol: I expect it's probably the former as a posed to the latter
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4191.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4192.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/IMG_4193.jpg

plenty of flash here, but it's not final so it doesn't matter.
It's still not properly set yet but it's hard enough to stay in the correct shape. unfortunately there was some newplast still in the mould, so that needs a drill and fill, no biggies though. I'm going to use this one to start work on the doors and bonnet I think. I'll have to wait until it's completely cured obviously... but I'm doing coursework on Saturday, working Sunday, discussing my furniture design concepts with an upholsterer on Monday, preparing a presentation for my pathway workshop design project on Tuesday and Wednesday, doing the same for another project on Thursday, machine training and 3d design on Friday, working Saturday and Sunday... BUT THE NEXT MONDAY OFF!!! :lol:

whoa whoa whoa....

I recommend you use this (http://www.tiranti.co.uk/subdivision_product_list.asp?Content=Biresin+G26+U rethane+Resin+-+Polyurethane+Resin+-+Casting&Subcategory=60&Subdivision=228) instead.

And resist the temptation to remove it from the mold too early;
leave it in the mold for a good hour so that it can cure/harden properly because it can and often will deform before it cures fully.

Tuna never looked so good :tongue: Nice work so far.

whoa whoa whoa....

I recommend you use this (http://www.tiranti.co.uk/subdivision_product_list.asp?Content=Biresin+G26+U rethane+Resin+-+Polyurethane+Resin+-+Casting&Subcategory=60&Subdivision=228) instead.

And resist the temptation to remove it from the mold too early;
leave it in the mold for a good hour so that it can cure/harden properly because it can and often will deform before it cures fully.

Thanks for the tip, I'm new to casting as you can probably tell :P
Need to save up and get this and 5 kilos of silicone. Which type of silicone would you recommend? I'm using T20 at the mo, would you recommend a firmer or softer one?

whoa whoa whoa....

I recommend you use this (http://www.tiranti.co.uk/subdivision_product_list.asp?Content=Biresin+G26+U rethane+Resin+-+Polyurethane+Resin+-+Casting&Subcategory=60&Subdivision=228) instead.

And resist the temptation to remove it from the mold too early;
leave it in the mold for a good hour so that it can cure/harden properly because it can and often will deform before it cures fully.


I'm quite familiar with Tiranti's as I have used their products for many years. I agree with DM here, the G26 resin is far superior to the general purpose stuff you are using. You will certainly know the difference when you use it.

T20, T28 and SE-2005 are suitable silicones to use. If you feel that the mold is getting squashed slightly when you bind it together when casting then go for the firmer T28 instead. When making block molds like this, the softer silicones can warp and become misaligned when bound together with elastic bands etc.

Looks good, is that the natural color of the resin, or the mix wasn't 100%?




PS Chris, will we see more models from you since you have more spare time now? :evillol:

I'm quite familiar with Tiranti's as I have used their products for many years. I agree with DM here, the G26 resin is far superior to the general purpose stuff you are using. You will certainly know the difference when you use it.

T20, T28 and SE-2005 are suitable silicones to use. If you feel that the mold is getting squashed slightly when you bind it together when casting then go for the firmer T28 instead. When making block molds like this, the softer silicones can warp and become misaligned when bound together with elastic bands etc.

Looks good, is that the natural color of the resin, or the mix wasn't 100%?
Wrong resin :frown: I need Urethane, that was polyester. Thanks for the heads up from you guys about that, you've saved me a lot of time methinks.

Updates!
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4223.jpg
Lots of flash! its all thin though.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4225.jpg
Bonnet off
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4234.jpg
You were only supposed, to blow the bloody doors off!

Also drilled out the indicator lamps and started to fab the lamp buckets.

Good news!

I contacted Mazda inc. about copyright and royalties, they said they needed more info before they could make a decision about royalty agreement, like how much, how many, where are you selling it etc. But it's looking good I think, this may turn out to be a licensed Mazda product :D :D :D :D :D

To Infinity and beyond! :wave:

Looks like that resin looks better. Beware of making a mold of the cockpit now as its very fragile and probably easy to break. Lookin good though.

That casting looks superb! Glad to see it's shaping up so well.

I contacted Mazda inc. about copyright and royalties, they said they needed more info before they could make a decision about royalty agreement, like how much, how many, where are you selling it etc. But it's looking good I think, this may turn out to be a licensed Mazda product :D :D :D :D :D

To Infinity and beyond! :wave:

And what about Tamiya...

Flemming

MFH quality or better
MFH have invested a lot of money in a lot of advanced equipment in order to produce high-quality kits and they have a lot of know-how collected over many years and skilled employers regarding such projects.
You are as far as I can see a one-man-band beginner when it comes to such projects and your kitchen table is your “factory”.
Maybe it is just me – but are you really sure you can do a “better than MFH” project:confused:.

MFH have invested a lot of money in a lot of advanced equipment in order to produce high-quality kits and they have a lot of know-how collected over many years and skilled employers regarding such projects.
You are as far as I can see a one-man-band beginner when it comes to such projects and your kitchen table is your “factory”.
Maybe it is just me – but are you really sure you can do a “better than MFH” project:confused:.

yes, yes I am sure. If I set huge goals then I'm more likely to fill them than more realistic goals. It's just who I am :p
What I meant by "better" was that it would be a greater level of detail. Things like metal turning etc. would be subcontracted to professionals who can produce the level of quality I want for this kit.

Things like metal turning etc. would be subcontracted to professionals who can produce the level of quality I want for this kit.

that would definitely drive costs way up and you'd probably figure there would be a minimum order needed for those parts. also factor in limited production of this kit will also raise the cost towards levels of MFH, ST27, etc. (one of the many overhead costs and reasons why they charge so much).

btw, someone else asked it but have you also contacted Tamiya?

Do they itch, those nits you're picking? :lol:

Regarding tamiya, the parts I'm cloning are all undergoing massive modification. It's fine.

The machined parts will cost more than if I machined them myself, but if I bought a cnc lathe it would be even more expensive. There probably is a minimum order, I was hoping to have more than one set since I was planning to produce this as a kit.

Do they itch, those nits you're picking? :lol:


Seems there may be a minor epidemic, judging from some of the previous posts. I'm glad to see you're keeping a sense of humour.
"Nulli illegitimi carborundum"!

I'm watching this with keen interest. I think this model car hobby needs many more people willing to "give it a go" for the sake of variety and choice, and I wish you success.

Seems there may be a minor epidemic, judging from some of the previous posts. I'm glad to see you're keeping a sense of humour.
"Nulli illegitimi carborundum"!

I'm watching this with keen interest. I think this model car hobby needs many more people willing to "give it a go" for the sake of variety and choice, and I wish you success.

Thank you!

This one's to you:

Mini update
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4240.jpg

Cleaned up the casting, making everything straight and square etc. That's a piece of masking tape which is sticking out in the vent there.
Removed the light buckets, they'll be a separate part I think.
Drilled out the front air intakes to make them narrower.
Drilled out the air vents on the top, these will be made from photoetch eventually, about 10 parts each plus rivets!

I applaud your effort. I will be watching this thread with a lot of interest. I hope that this kit will come about as I definitely would be interested in one even if it is just a transkit for the body. Looks great so far.
Nic

I was wondering if you know any suppliers in the states that sell triniti supplies?

I was wondering if you know any suppliers in the states that sell triniti supplies?
http://www.smooth-on.com/ Or http://www.tapplastics.com/ They don't supply Trianti products, but they're just as good.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4247.jpg
From some excess resin which was mixed for the body, made into a rough billet...
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4246.jpg
Using blueprints of the R26B on the internet,
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4245.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4244-1.jpg
those styrene arms have come off since I took this pic, they were to build up a lip.
Still got to make the rotor, drill out the rest of the water jacket, make the exhaust flanges etc. and make the spacers.

Nice detail in that rotor housing section, I'm even more keen to get the end product if you go into mass production.

Nice detail in that rotor housing section, I'm even more keen to get the end product if you go into mass production.
Thank you very much, all the engine housings will hopefully be cast in white metal with photoetched details and machined components.
Been working on the gearbox, not much to show for a long evenings work if i'm honest. I reckon I might be able to make a set of gears to go in there too, but only for the engine model kit; not for the main car kit.
With the rotor sections I was thinking either to have the engine as a block with the front end off, or as individual housings with the spacers as separate parts too. Also having machined spark plugs has wandered across my brain.

I don't suppose anyone has any ref. pics of the Mazda-Porsche gearbox do they? the ones I'm using are a tad limited.

I don't suppose anyone has any ref. pics of the Mazda-Porsche gearbox do they? the ones I'm using are a tad limited.

You might be able to get Mazda to send you some detail pictures of the car. I know you've already been in contact with them the licensing department, but you may have to contact Mazdaspeed for pictures.

The latest offering.
only a small update because i have loads on at college at the mo...
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4327.jpg
the roll cage, this will go above the engine
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/sky-rail/787B/IMG_4328.jpg
nearly finished roll cage at the top, and one of the suspension wishbones at the bottom

Bad news
Mazda said:
because the kit has small parts and sharp metal components, they don't want to be liable to injuries, and they couldn't support the kit.
so I said:
there's loads of kits which are exactly the same, and that they wouldn't be able to be held responsible.

...should be alright, trying to convince them. watch this space.

Good luck on this. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. Looks excellent so far.

TIM