here are my newly installed GY 32" MTR's. warning driveway shot!!! tests/actions shots soon to follow...

Lookin' good Jason!

:bandit:

thanks. now these give me an excuse to wheel daily instead of my usual weekly trip. ha ;)

Those look like nice tires! First time I have seen someone in a long time put the white lettering on their tires to the outside! Not being a smartass, just an observation! :)

Yea man, looks good. Keep us posted as to how they perform. I'm seriously considering these as my next tire.


Dog:bathroom:

You know the blue stuff comes off the lettering right?

Originally posted by Schludwiller
You know the blue stuff comes off the lettering right?

He likes those blue-walls!

Look Mike !

32's without a lift or hugely cranked torsion bars !

Woohoo !

yes, i was aware that the blue stuff comes off the white lettering. the picture was taken minutes after the tires were installed today so i didnt have time to clean that blue crap off. i will do it soon.

as for the lift, no i dont have a true lift on my X but i do have my torsion bars cranked up about 1.25" and a fabtech AAL in the rear.

Originally posted by xoc
Look Mike !

32's without a lift or hugely cranked torsion bars !

Woohoo !

Hmmmm....1.25" of torsion bar lift, and AAL's in the rear sure doesn't sound like stock Ian. :silly2:

Originally posted by Ag_xterra
as for the lift, no i dont have a true lift on my X but i do have my torsion bars cranked up about 1.25" and a fabtech AAL in the rear.

Take this measurement, and post the results here please.

http://www.xterrain.com/images/x%20front%20adjustment.jpg

Originally posted by xoc
Look Mike !

32's without a lift or hugely cranked torsion bars !

Woohoo !

Who said anything about "hugely cranked"? You describing your ego again? :flipa:

I said you can't fit 32's on the X without cranking the torsion bars, and you can't ... unless you want to remove your fenders the hard way.

Originally posted by Philosopher
I said you can't fit 32's on the X without cranking the torsion bars, and you can't ... unless you want to remove your fenders the hard way.

Sure...

http://www.xterraownersclub.com/images/xotwbig16.jpg

Why must you go on and on with this nonsense ?

Adjusting the torsion bars does not alter the suspension in any way. The amount of upward travel and downward travel are exactly the same as a stock Xterra. Travel is limited by the bumpstops, and nothing else.

Adjusting the torsion bars alters the ride height, but when the suspension is fully compressed the wheel is in exactly the same place regardless of whether the ride height is adjusted, or whether a lift kit is installed.

Please tell me why the wheel can no longer travel all the way up if the torsion bars are cranked.

This is such a simple thing Mike, and I have to wonder why you try to convince yourself and others that it is not a fact.

Ian, doesn't pre-loading the torsion bars reduce how fast the torsion bars reach the bumpstop or is it even speed regardless? I know your argument is about where the wheel is under full suspension trouble, but I am curious about this point.

Also, adding new torsion bars had more of an effect on my rubbing problems than anything.

Originally posted by Schludwiller
Ian, doesn't pre-loading the torsion bars reduce how fast the torsion bars reach the bumpstop or is it even speed regardless? I know your argument is about where the wheel is under full suspension trouble, but I am curious about this point.

Yes, it does, since you're stiffening the spring.

Mike's claim may come from the fact that he isn't using up all the travel due to the torsion bars being so stiff, but it's no reason to say 32's won't fit. No matter what, 32's will rub, lift, cranked or stock, but they will "fit" in any situation.

If you look closely at the clearance on the L/F tire of both trucks at the rear wheel well you can clearly see how close the clearance is. I would be surprised if they don't rub at full articulation. I have to agree with XOC on this one. You can add a suspension lift and you will increase your articulation proportionate to the amount of the lift. But it doesn't change your bump stop unless you replace it with a longer one, limiting your upward articulation. I don't condone the condescending attitude, but I do agree with the logic and facts as presented. I personally wouldn't put 32's on an unlifted truck unless I modified the rims in some way. But then you begin to put at risk your steering components. But even lifted, you still have to modify the rims to prevent rub due to the fact that suspension travel hasn't changed.

Originally posted by warmonger
I don't condone the condescending attitude, but I do agree with the logic and facts as presented.

Sometimes that's the only choice. I've been trying to explain this to Mike for a month or two now.

Originally posted by Schludwiller
Also, adding new torsion bars had more of an effect on my rubbing problems than anything.

I don't know which torsion bars you added, but I am going to go on the assumption that they are Sway Away. If so, they are 30% stiffer I am guessing. This will reduce the rate at which the front end drops. But if you have the added weight of an ARB and winch, you will offset this somewhat although not completely. You can still compress the front suspension fully, it just takes more work. Stiffer shock absorbers will also effect it somewhat. But again, neither of these changes the articulation. Just the speed with which it articulates and the force it requires to reach full articulation, thus reducing how often it actually hits the contact point.

measurement A = 13.5"

measurement B = 11.0"

thus making measurement H = 2.5"

Not trying to join the fray, but my 32x10.50 TSLs would not fit without cranking the t-bars. I have since added an SLR suspension lift, but they would not fit on my stock truck without altering the ride height.


Dog

Originally posted by Maddog
Not trying to join the fray, but my 32x10.50 TSLs would not fit without cranking the t-bars.

"Fit" how ?

Originally posted by Ag_xterra
measurement A = 13.5"
measurement B = 11.0"
thus making measurement H = 2.5"

Thank you, 0.6" over stock. My mistake, it didn't look that high in the photo. Any alignment problems ?

well i do believe i was below the recommended factory ride height of 1.79". when i measured from the body mount closest to the torsion bar adjuster nut i raised it a total of 1.25".

the O.D. of my 32's are only 31.5" actual. if they were swampers i'd probably have alot more rubbing issues on road.

dealership said it was difficult to get all the specs back into alignment but they were able to get it pretty close.

Originally posted by Ag_xterra
well i do believe i was below the recommended factory ride height of 1.79". when i measured from the body mount closest to the torsion bar adjuster nut i raised it a total of 1.25".

That sounds about right when compared to the factory measurement point. The factory point is inside from the centerline of the tire, so your measuring only part way along the triangle.

Originally posted by xoc


Sure...

Why must you go on and on with this nonsense ?

Adjusting the torsion bars does not alter the suspension in any way. The amount of upward travel and downward travel are exactly the same as a stock Xterra. Travel is limited by the bumpstops, and nothing else.


Say what? How can someone with "20 years of experience" say something so foolish? This is utter bullshit. When you crank up torsion bars, you push the upper bumpstops closer the the upper control arm, thus limiting your travel. The amount of travel a stock Xterra has versus an Xterra with torsion bars cranked up is different, and everyone who has cranked their t-bars up even just a little bit should be able to notice the difference in ride quality since they don't have as much down travel as they did when their truck was stock.



Adjusting the torsion bars alters the ride height, but when the suspension is fully compressed the wheel is in exactly the same place regardless of whether the ride height is adjusted, or whether a lift kit is installed.

Please tell me why the wheel can no longer travel all the way up if the torsion bars are cranked.

This is such a simple thing Mike, and I have to wonder why you try to convince yourself and others that it is not a fact.


http://www.maxc.org/images/banghead.gif

What you're saying about this maybe fine in theory but not in practice. You say that some guy in your club has gotten 32's to fit under his Xterra without cranking the torsion bars? Fine. He's the only guy I know of who didn't have to crank his t-bars at least a little bit to make 32's fit. Maybe his t-bars were cranked a bit higher from the factory than everyone else's. Maybe his front suspension is magical. Either way, everyone else has had to crank up the torsion bars to get 32's to fit. That is my point and that is what I tell people who ask me: To get 31's to fit under an X, you need to trim the plastic around the wheel wells. To get 32's to fit, you have to trim a bit more plastic and crank the torsion bars at least a little bit.

Travel is NOT altered. The maximum upward stuff and downward droop (the full suspension travel) does NOT change. The only things that change with a t-bar tweak are the distances from "rest" to max upward travel and to max downward travel. You can call this "reduced down-travel" and "increased up-travel" if it makes you happy, but it is certainly not reduced droop or increased stuff, which would be a change in true suspension travel.
The "change in ride quality" is not related to "reduced down-travel", it is because the increased pre-load on the bars makes the suspension less willing to "give" to the smaller changes in the road surface and therefore transmits more to the body, as well as reducing roll somewhat.

Brent

Originally posted by OffroadX
The only things that change with a t-bar tweak are the distances from "rest" to max upward travel and to max downward travel.

Yeah, i.e. reduced down travel. I think most folks reading this know what I mean.

But reduced down travel has nothing to do with making tires fit. The tweak that causes it does make the rubbing less frequent, but no less likely.

Brent

Originally posted by OffroadX
But reduced down travel has nothing to do with making tires fit.

Brent

Read my last paragraph 4 posts up. Did you crank your torsion bars up a bit to fit your 32" KO's Brent?

Originally posted by OffroadX
The tweak that causes it does make the rubbing less frequent

That "tweak" is what saves your fenders from being wrecked and your tires from being worn down and cut up prematurely ... that is my point and has been from the beginning - can you fit 32's under an X without cranking the torsion bars? Probably, but you can't drive down the street (or hit a trail) with them like that without damaging something sooner or later.

I don't claim to know it all, or even most of it. But I do know that you need to crank up the t-bars a little bit to fit 32's under an X to have no rubbing ... I know, I did it 2 years ago. After trimming a shitload of plastic in front of and behind the front wheel well I had to crank them up a bit to stop the rubbing issues.


This is getting really old - I tried to help someone out on XOC by telling them they would need to crank up their t-bars a bit to fit 32's and all this crap is the result of that. Was my initial statement correct? Yes. Next time I'll just ignore 'the whiners' (an Ian term) and/or just keep my opinion to myself and let someone with more years of wheeling experience (you :rolleyes: and Ian) answer instead.

Philo...there isn't any reason to get mad.

But what Ian and offroadX have said is true.

Just cranking up the t-bars will help relieve rubbing becuase of the pre-load you have on your t-bars. I.e. making it harder for it to "stuff" the tire into the wheel well. I guarantee if you were to jump your truck to make sure you are getting all the susp travel used up you would end up with the same amount of rub as the person that hasn't cranked his t-bars.

You haven't really altered anything. The position of the wheel at full tuck is the same whether you cranked the t-bars or not.

Sorry man. I see what you are saying but Ian is right.

Originally posted by an1malch1n
Philo...there isn't any reason to get mad.




I'm not mad, just tired of debating something that started out as one small question and ended up being a thread on 2 different boards - partly my fault of course, but nonetheless ridiculous. This all started when I said: "Twisting the torsion bars is (part of) a 'poor man's lift' and enables you to run 32" tires under an Xterra whereas without doing that you can only fit 31's. I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to point out the logic." posted 10-18-2001 11:32 AM in XOC under Hardcore 4WD, topic named "Which lift first".

Anyone who wants to put 32's under an X without cranking the t-bars, have at it.




Sorry man. I see what you are saying but Ian is right.



Okay, Ian is right. :) :rolleyes: :bonghitte

I think both points are valid.

Yes you can put 32's without mods on a Xterra if you're going to park it on a meadow. (my opinioin, but all the rubbing would drive me nuts, much like my SSR's with an ARB and Winch. Only getting heavier duty torsion bars stopped this).

Adjusting the torsion bars doesn't limit physical travel, but pre-loads the bars so your larger tires have less of a tendency to rub against your upper fender.

Ian's definition of "fit" is if they're in there.

Philo's definition of "fit" is if you can drive offroad with a minimum of rubbing.

Any dissention with the above statement? Please provide your final opinions and I'm going to lock this thread.

Originally posted by Schludwiller
Philo's definition of "fit" is if you can drive offroad with a minimum of rubbing.



Offroad or even onroad over potholes or small bumps.

Sorry Schlud, didn't mean to make a mess of this.

I'll go back to my bong now ...

I don't mind the debate. :licker:

It just seems everything has been said now.

One last question Mike.
Define "fender".

Are you saying the tire is hitting the sheet metal of the fender, or do you mean the plastic trim on the bumper, or the mud flap ?

Here are 2 pictures showing a tire stuffed as far as it will go, both taken at the same time on an RTI ramp.

The tire still has a lot of room to the fender, even if the wheel was turned.

http://www.xterrain.com/images/stuffed01.jpg

This shows the compression of the lower bumpstop. I'm running a shorter poly bumpstop now, and still don't come near the fender.

http://www.xterrain.com/images/stuffed02.jpg

Mike, you yourself posted a picture (from the area shown on your MAXC bio page), of "major stuffage" and there was still clearance.

Where exactly does it rub ?

The only place I've rubbed is the plastic liner at the upper front of the wheel well, bascially just under and behind air intake.

Brent

Originally posted by OffroadX
The only place I've rubbed is the plastic liner at the upper front of the wheel well, bascially just under and behind air intake.


Same here, and also one of the push-pins that hold the rear of liner on, but only the passenger side. Certainly not tearing off a fender.

Originally posted by xoc
One last question Mike.
Define "fender".

Are you saying the tire is hitting the sheet metal of the fender, or do you mean the plastic trim on the bumper, or the mud flap ?




The areas that can be contacted / torn up by 32's = the stock front bumper (or even an ARB as some have found out), the fender lip moulding, the wheel well lining, the stock 'mudflap' in the rear of the front wheel well.

Originally posted by xoc

This shows the compression of the lower bumpstop. I'm running a shorter poly bumpstop now, and still don't come near the fender.

http://www.xterrain.com/images/stuffed02.jpg


No upper bump stops at all?


I also ran the Energy Suspension Low-Profile Bump Stops on the lower control arm for a while but removed them because they were just too short and I kept bottoming out.

Originally posted by Philosopher


Read my last paragraph 4 posts up. Did you crank your torsion bars up a bit to fit your 32" KO's Brent?



Didn't want to answer me Brent?

I started to, but I couldn't come up with a good way to phrase it. I guess the best way to say it is I made a half-assed attempt but started cranking backwards. By the time it was all over, I don't think I ended up adding any height. The ad-hoc measurements I took before, during, and after didn't really indicate a change. Seeing how it was the night before I left for Shamokin, I didn't have time to really do it right. However, in the 2 days between getting them mounted and attempting the tweak, I didn't get any rubbing around town (and I was testing for it).

Brent

Originally posted by OffroadX
I started to, but I couldn't come up with a good way to phrase it. I guess the best way to say it is I made a half-assed attempt but started cranking backwards. By the time it was all over, I don't think I ended up adding any height. The ad-hoc measurements I took before, during, and after didn't really indicate a change. Seeing how it was the night before I left for Shamokin, I didn't have time to really do it right. However, in the 2 days between getting them mounted and attempting the tweak, I didn't get any rubbing around town (and I was testing for it).

Brent

Use your ESM and take the measurements Ian posted here. At least you can find out where in the spec you fall.

Originally posted by Philosopher
No upper bump stops at all?


It's there. Bad photo angle :)

Originally posted by Schludwiller
Use your ESM and take the measurements Ian posted here. At least you can find out where in the spec you fall.

Ian posted the diagram, why do I need my ESM? :D

Brent

Yikes ... Brent riding Ian's coat tails. This could get ugly. :huh:

Originally posted by Philosopher
Yikes ... Brent riding Ian's coat tails. This could get ugly. :huh:

I believe it was actually a dig at Ian for posting copyrighted material on the internet.

Hadn't thought of that. Actually was simply pointing out that I didn't need my ESM since the diagram was already here. In other words, I was busting your chops a bit :)

Brent

Originally posted by OffroadX
Hadn't thought of that. Actually was simply pointing out that I didn't need my ESM since the diagram was already here. In other words, I was busting your chops a bit :)

Brent

I'll remember not to overestimate the depth of your humor next time then. :flipa: :D