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95 Saturn SC2 5 speed - ENGINE REMOVAL


fritcr
12-07-2008, 05:23 PM
My 12 y/o son and I are trying to remove the engine on an SC2 5sp. I bought a used engine for it and just need to swap it out. I have done some research on here and the saturn site. From everything I have read etc...the engine can be removed from the top of the car without much trouble except for the front crank pulley. We have everything disconnected and the front crank pully off the car. ONLY 3 bolts holding the engine to the transmission. Got a cherry picker everything. I had also picked up a Haynes manual for it the otherday. I was unsure if I needed to remove the bracket from the engine and tranny that the exhaust bolts too. I got in the Haynes manual and find this:

**NOTE** The engine can be removed from the car separate from the transaxle if the the transmisison is an automatic. The engine and transmission MUST be removed as a until if the car has a manual transmission.
WHHHAAAATT?????????

I freaked...so now the car is sitting in my garage with 3 bolts holding it in and some tension on the cherry picker until I find out the truth. In all of my reading I never saw anyone say that this is the case.
Can someone confirm this or let me know if I can get it out without removing the transaxle??

Sorry...just kinda freaked me out...now I don't know what to do next.

Rob

PS..haven't ran into many problems until this!

RC1488
12-07-2008, 05:52 PM
You can remove JUST the engine regardless of tranny type from the top. However, with a manual, you have clearence issues. The tranny must be pushed back into the drivers side wheel well about ~3 inches, so that the input shaft is out of the clutch and pressure plate. In an auto, the torque converter can be unbolted from the flex plate from under the car and therefore no clearence issue occur.

fritcr
12-07-2008, 06:02 PM
Can you tell me what I will need to do to get that kind of clearance to get it out? I'm so close and we are all wound up and excited! Great learning for my 12 y/o and his old man is learning a bit also. LOL
Rob

ps..thanks so much for the quick reply...you have helped me before with other questions.

RC1488
12-08-2008, 03:26 AM
Really, it would be easier to take the entire thing out as is. Mostly because the same steps need to be taken. In order to get these 3 inches of clearance more things need to be taken apart :/

To get the engine out alone:
1. Remove the drivers side inner shrouding.
2. Remove the lower tranny mount
3. Remove the drivers side axle; remove the 30mm nut. remove the strut to spindle bolts (18mm and 21mm). You then may be able to turn the wheel and remove the axle from the spindle (if not then also remove the tie rod end). From there remove axle from the tranny (its held on with a c ring so just give it a good pull and it will pop out.
4. Push the tranny away from the engine into the wheel well. The other axle has nothing holding it in so it will slide out as the tranny is being pushed. A jack helps keep it upright.
5. From here push it in untill it clears the pressure plate. It will be a balancing act, so some rope to help it stay where you want it can help.
6. Now remove the motor

Removal with engine and tranny:
Same steps 1-3.
4. Pull passenger axle out from tranny (leave it connected to the spindle)
5. Remove tranny and engine as is connected.

Other option:
Drop subframe onto a dolley. I use the engine hoist to lift the car up about 34in, with the back of the car on 2 jack stands for support. I then lower the subframe onto a dolley and roll the entire drivetrain out from under the car. I then can remove the engine and leave the tranny/axles/ and everything else as is. To do this you need to unhook the entire exhuast system so you can rotate it. Not that hard really

Your choice i suppose :)

fritcr
12-08-2008, 10:42 AM
RC, thanks again for responding! Well, your right...sounds like just taking them out together would be easier. I just didn't want to mess with the axles. I would done the subframe thing like you said but I didn't think I could get the car up that high and I don't have a tranny jack or whatever. hmmm does sound much easier. Oh well, live and learn...I'll try to ge the axles out. Maybe taking the tranny out with it won't be as bad as I thought. Any trick to unhooking the line for the clutch?
Rob

RC1488
12-08-2008, 11:06 AM
Remove the 2 bolts for the clutch slave cylinder. Then push in and turn the cylinder clock wise and pull it. Tie rap this part to the drivers side of the fuse box and do NOT touch it or the clutch pedal until it is back in place.

The clutch cables are held on with 2 clips U shaped clips. Just pull the clips off with pliers and remove the cable base. At the shift tower its just a O shaped bushing pushed on to a rod. Easy enough :)

The axles dont take to long. A nice crow bar is helpful for the drivers side axle. use the tranny CASE for leverage, not the thin metal around the axle on the case. You dont want to bend that.

fritcr
12-08-2008, 01:00 PM
Thanks sooo much for all of your help! It will be a busy week for me but will try to work on it as I have time. I'm sure I will have more questions.
Rob

Cat Fuzz
12-08-2008, 10:04 PM
Tie the clutch pedal up. If you don't, you WILL push it down for some dumb reason and blow your slave cylinder apart.

fritcr
12-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Well, IT IS OUT!!! Sitting on a tire in my garage. Whew what a mess.
Thanks again for the help so far. I'm sure I will have other issues going back in.
As a note to others that might use this thread...I found the following:
The passenger axle does have to have the carrier ? removed from the engine block to get it to slide out of the tranny. I did leave it in the axle hub but wasn't sure how that carrier thing worked. It does not come apart that I could see so I unbolted it from the engine then pushed the engine to the far drivers side and it slid out finally.
Also, when removing the clutch slave cylinder thing...you must push and turn it COUNTERCLOCKWISE not CLOCKWISE.
Also...I found this out the hard way and should have known, DUH, that you must drain the tranny fluid BEFORE you take the axle out. I made a big mess!
I'll be getting the used engine ready to go back in probalby this weekend.
Good idea to tie the clutch up! I'll do that when I get home.
Rob

RC1488
12-10-2008, 05:11 PM
Yea the 3 bolts holding the passenger halfshaft have to be undone :)

And sorry about the wrong directoins. Not sure why i said clockwise:sly:

Cat Fuzz
12-10-2008, 09:17 PM
You know it was a good day by the size of the puddle on the garage floor. :iceslolan

fritcr
12-16-2008, 01:36 PM
Well it has been very cold here and I have been busy with all kinds of other holiday stuff so I have not got much done lately. I do have the donar engine in the garage and now have the tranny bolted to it and everything all ready to go back in the car except one thing!!! The BLASTED front crank pulley! I can't get it off the donar engine. I sprayed it with PB Blaster and jack hammered it with an air wrench for a while but no budging at all. With it hanging in the air and no way to hold anything I can't use a cheater bar on it very well. Hmmm will try to hammer it some more after letting that blaster sit on it a few days.
Rob

RC1488
12-17-2008, 12:08 AM
PB blast it before work and when you get home. Make sure the air gun is on HIGH. Then just have at it. It will come loose eventually :)

Cat Fuzz
12-18-2008, 12:30 AM
Crank the air pressure up a bit on the compressor and put a few drops of air tool oil into the inlet on the impact wrench. That will give you a little more torque.

fritcr
12-22-2008, 09:06 AM
OK, well we are getting there slowly. I got the crank pully off with a cheater bar and my son holding the tire iron jambed in there so it could not turn. We got the donar engine back in the car and everything hooked up. All is done except NOW IT WON'T START!!! We were both so dissapointed last night. We worked hard on it all day so we could get it going and it cranks but will not fire up. Here is what I have checked. (remember it was late and we were tired) I'll do some more checking tonight but it does have fire on every cylinder....it does have fuel pressure at the schreader valve. It however NEVER hits not even one time. I expected to find it did not have fire but it does. I don't really know how to tell if the injectors are pulsing. I did some reading and will do more as time permits here at work. I'll try to get a stethascope from my dad tonight and see if I can hear them pulsing. I don't know what else it could be. If you have fire and gas what's left. The car ran when we started this.(the orginal but needed a valve job) The guy said the engine ran fine when he took it out of his wrecked car. Was very nice and seems honest. I did do a mmo soak on it before we put it in the car and the plugs are very oily but what are the chances that all 4 plugs would be completly fouled out so bad that it would not even try to hit? I'm going to pick up new plugs for it on the way home tonight anyway we I can rule that out. I have a complete engine that ran in the shed with all sensors and wires on it but if both of them ran then I don't know it could be. I also used the coil paks, wires etc off the orginial engine. Not that it matters since it IS fireing. OMG>..sorry for this long post.
My son has named it "Sally" the Saturn. He was not very happy with Sally last night when she would not start! haha
Rob

RC1488
12-22-2008, 06:02 PM
Make sure all the grounds on are connected...including the two grounds that go to the back of the engine with a (8mm?) bolt under the first intake runner. Some forget this one.

Crank the car over with the spark plugs out to get the MMO out of the cylinder.

Get new spark plugs (which i believe you said you are doing).

Make sure your using the Original injectors and fuel rail.

Make sure you have a Brass ECTS that has the two wire connector. If you do not, this may be the issue. A cracked ECTS can lead to a rich mixture.

Put the key in RUN then OFF twice or three times, to make sure the fuel rail is being pressurized. Since everything was disconnected, all the fuel either came out or went back into the tank.

Hold the pedal at WOT or halfway and see if that helps.

It will start over :)

RC1488
12-22-2008, 06:09 PM
Make sure all the grounds on are connected...including the two grounds that go to the back of the engine with a (8mm?) bolt under the first intake runner. Some forget this one.

Crank the car over with the spark plugs out to get the MMO out of the cylinder.

Get new spark plugs (which i believe you said you are doing).

Make sure your using the Original injectors and fuel rail.

Make sure you have a Brass ECTS that has the two wire connector. If you do not, this may be the issue. A cracked ECTS can lead to a rich mixture.

Put the key in RUN then OFF twice or three times, to make sure the fuel rail is being pressurized. Since everything was disconnected, all the fuel either came out or went back into the tank.

Hold the pedal at WOT or halfway and see if that helps.

It will start over :)

fritcr
12-22-2008, 08:29 PM
Got some more info...put the new plugs in. I had to get AC platiums because that was the only ones they had for it. Cranked with nothing. Took the air cleaner snout off at the throttle plate and squirted a bit of Throttle Body Cleaner in it and it hit and ran just a sec then died. Ok...so it is fuel. I got a stethascope and could not hear the injectors clicking at all when turning it over. Pulled plugs and they ok and not wet. I jack the car back up and go over all of my wires and connections. I don't have an ohm meter/voltage meter. My dad swiped it and I never saw it again. (i need to go get one). So, I could not check my injectors etc. Pulled all of the injector wires/clips off and then pushed them back on. Cranked more...nothing...cranked more and it HIT just a bit. So..for long time I cranked and it would hit and die...etc.
NOW the car will run and idle but it is missing on the #1 cyl. I double checked the fire and it is good. Pulled the plug and it is ok and not fouled. I got the stethascope out and started it up...now I can hear clicks on #2 and #4 but NOT #1 or #3??? It is too smooth to be running on only 2 clys I think but who knows. Anyway, dad come by during all of this and says...you know..those goobers up there were sawing boards in that trailer with your engine in it. Do you think they got saw dust in the fuel rail? Well probalby...also, like a dumb @ss I went up and sprayed the engine off at the car wash and didn't cover those tubes. I did put a bag over the intake but not the fuel lines. I guess what I'm saying is...does the injectors pulse if they are clogged with crap? I'm thinking they may be really clogged up? What do you all thing? I have the engine that came out of the car and it is in MY shed covered and clean. I could take the injector rail out of it but I don't know how they come out etc? My haynes manual is no help. Would I have to get new O rings to do this?
Sorry for all of the questions. We are very excited now that we can hear it running. I'm kind of stumped as to why 2 injectors pulse or click but the other 2 do not.
Thanks for responding RC
Rob and Dalton

fritcr
12-23-2008, 09:40 PM
I worked for probalby and hour trying to get the fuel rail out of the engine in the car. I couldn't figure out any way to get it out with the injectors on it. I finally gave up and took the clips off of the rail and pulled the injectors off then got it all out. I went up and got my other rail off the orginal engine. I pulled it out end where the P/S pump would have been with no problem. The injectors etc look MUCH better on this one. In fact the injectors off the engine in the car now were all gummed/gunked up.
Anyway, I really hate to take the injectors off and put this all back in but I have tried everything to put it in with the injectors attached and it will not go. I even removed the regulator and won't fit in there. I tried sliding it in from the drivers side and it will almost go but gets stuck on the throttle plate area. My next step is to take the p/s pump off but man I hate to do that it is a pain. Thought someone might have a trick to putting them back in. I tried putting it in from the top with the injectors up in the air and they won't clear the valve cover. Then sticking down and it will not turn in there to go in place. Don't know if I should pull the injectors off the rail and then put them in first or remove the p/s pump? I'm tired and quit on it. Any ideas would be great. The Haynes manual only says to remove the rail from the top and I couldn't do that and now can't get it back in that way.
Rob

RC1488
12-23-2008, 10:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwCxTs4riM8

Hes the fuel rail removal for SOHC, however the intake is the same design as the DOHC. Maybe you can get an idea from this :)

I remove the injects from the rail, stick the rail in, then put the injectors back on it. Its not hard and does not hurt anything. They just pop out. There are however plastic O rings you want to be very careful with. They can tear if you force them. Make sure when you put the injector in the rail, the o ring is seated properly. I didnt seat one of mine right and squirted fuel all over :runaround:

Make sure what ever injectors you use they are from '91-'95. In '96 the impedence of the injectors changed and will not work right with your '95 PCM :)

Keep working! Youll get there! Dont give up!

fritcr
12-24-2008, 07:59 AM
Thanks RC! I won't give up. I just get frustrated.
I might just take the injectors off the rail then. I was afraid of leaks. I'm afraid I will have a leak as it is "messing" with them. Everyone just talks like it comes right out and back in but I can't get it too. I figure...I'm doing something wrong! LOL
HEY MERRY CHRISTMAS to everyone!!!
Rob

fritcr
01-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Just wanted to update everyone. The saturn is ALIVE! I have driven it a few times. Probalby put about 60-70 miles on it. Runs pretty good. I have a few small problems but will start a new thread for them. Engine is in and all is good. Thanks sooo much for everyones help with this!
Rob

RC1488
01-06-2009, 08:30 PM
Fantastic!! Great job by both you and your son!

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