got to hot, head or intake gasket???

:runaround: my friends car got pretty hot last night. temp gauge would not regester from lack of coolant. She stop the car and we proceeded to put some coolant in it. There was no pressure in the hose or at the cap. Engine running, i poured diluted 5050 mix at a slow rate into the radiator. The rpm changed constantly as fluid was introduced. I hope the block was not hot enough to warp with the cool fluid. like i said, i poured it in slow. The engine ran fine until i tried to increase rpm and it died. The car would not start after that and eventually would not spin over. After jumping and attempts to get it started, it would spin fine with no fire. Starting fluid into the throttle body finally got it to clear out and start. Lots of steam from exhaust and car runs like crap. Ok so head or intake could be warped or gasket shrink from the nature of the 3800 block.

I am trying to save her money of course and would like to keep it out of the shop. With the lack of proper leak down test equipment, how do i go about finding if it is the intake, left, or right bank. I really don't have the time to rebuild the top of her block, but can if i have to.

Any comments would be helpful for me to get this car out of the street.

ps. sorry for the punctuation and caps and stuff, just really need some sound advice.

thank you
jason

I'd pull off the upper plenum and inspect the area around the egr tube for cracked plastic. These are well known for this type of failure. After market ones with reinforcements in this area are available through dorman and are reasonable priced! If there is coolant everywhere on top of the lower intake when you remove it is more than likely the problem!!

Welcome to AF.

It would help to post the current mileage and year LeSabre since '95-'98 GM cars and '99 and up have differerent issues concerning the UIM plenum, UIM gaskets or LIM gaskets going bad assuming this is a SII 3800 engine.

In any event a teardown to at least to the LIM level will be needed just to be sure. Since there appears to be an excessive amount of coolant being burned in combustion do it as soon as possible since you can hydrolock and damage the engine. The coolant if it gets into the crankcase will damage camshaft, crank and connecting rod bearings and then the engine will be toast.

thanks to all that posted, i am working on it now. the car has 134000 on it as far as mileage.

i will give an update as soon as i know what i find for everybodys info.

thanks to all



thanks to above
who posted

What Year?

IMHO, Don't just look at the UIM and if it's good, everything is OK. Some that leek, the Plenum is OK, it's the gasket that went bad.
On the ones that go bad, it's not just the Plenum that is a problem area, the gaskets are a failure area also.
People criticize GM for the plastic UIM. I actually think the gasket is worse then the Plenum, but that might be splitting hairs.
Just saying your UIM might not of failed (Replace it anyway), could be your crap GM gasket.
Chris.

IMHO, Don't just look at the UIM and if it's good, everything is OK. Some that leek, the Plenum is OK, it's the gasket that went bad.
On the ones that go bad, it's not just the Plenum that is a problem area, the gaskets are a failure area also.
People criticize GM for the plastic UIM. I actually think the gasket is worse then the Plenum, but that might be splitting hairs.
Just saying your UIM might not of failed (Replace it anyway), could be your crap GM gasket.
Chris.
I do not agree... Yes there have been some Gasket issues with the upper intake, but those are few and far between when compared to actually upper intake failures at the EGR port... Even a Smaller Stove pipe is not a cure nor a fix for the problem.. More than most of the time the EGR port in the upper intake has been eroded away and the coolant gets sucked into the engine..

In any event, If the Upper Plenum has Rochester or Delphi on it and its more than a few years old( If its a Rochester or Delphi, it will have a date stamp on the top of the plenum ) I'd replace it with a Dorman/Motormite or an APN... The Dorman will also include the reduced diameter stove pipe

Also while you are here, replace the lower intake gaskets with Fel Pro, or the GM aluminum gaskets...

sorry guys, its a Buick Lesabre 1997 3.8.
the shop the car is currently sittting at does not want to do the work for intake/head r&r. ??? he would rather just go back in with a fresh long block for $1800.00. i thank he is crazy and will probably get the car back to her garage for futher teardown and repair.

i don't believe the car got hot enough to do serious damage to the heads or the intake. i just can't tell until the car gets back to me. it was towed off to early for me to get off work and look at it.

the cost of a new gasket set is only $142.00. i will first get the UIM off and invesigate any obvious problems.

we really don'twant to invest more than a $1000.00 into the car because of the street value for her car. it is in very good shape and has low mileage for that year.

do ya'll recommened going to the head level and sending them to a machine shop for good measure, or can i hopefully stop at the LIM and UIM for gasket replacement and maybe the UIM if it is cracked?

thanks for your replys

The real question is how long was it ran with no coolant in it? was it pinging really bad?

3800's are known to be good with head gaskets even when ran hot, but there is a point where any engine will pop the head gaskets if run hot long enough...

I am not sure that the head gaskets are the problem, but being that you know she ran it hot you may consider doing a compression check.. If you want to have the heads done or at the very least checked for run out to make sure the heads surface is within spec, if not have the heads shaved..

You will most likely be replacing the upper intake as well..

But if there is anything you want to know, we will take it one step at a time..

great, thankks for your time. the car never got hot enough to show any performance problems or any pre detonation. the temp gauge would fluctuate between 220 and "hot" i guess around 260-270. i would assume there was not enough coolant to get a proper reading.

as soon as i introduced new coolant with the engine running, rpm changed over and over as the engine i guess adjusted to the coolant now being sucked from some where. the car ran ok untillied to increase rpm at the throttle body, then i died and would not restart. ether cleared the plugs and got it to fire. while running it was just a big steam pump...

i will get the car back to the house and proceed with the UIM inspection and see where that takes me. as the car sits now, it is not worth any more than $500.00

Also while you are here, replace the lower intake gaskets with Fel Pro, or the GM aluminum gaskets...If you "Disagree..." Why wold you tell him to replace a gasket if there not a problem?
I've seen 1/3 of the leaks end up being the gasket GM used then. Sure, 2/3 of them are UIM, but since it's a forum, I wanted to add some more experiences for the poster and others who find this.
Thank you for your perspective on things.
Chris.

If you "Disagree..." Why wold you tell him to replace a gasket if there not a problem?
I've seen 1/3 of the leaks end up being the gasket GM used then. Sure, 2/3 of them are UIM, but since it's a forum, I wanted to add some more experiences for the poster and others who find this.
Thank you for your perspective on things.
Chris.
Fist you were vague and you did not state weather you were talking about the lower or upper gaskets...

I was a fool for making the assumption you were talking about the upper to lower gasket.. I have rarely seen the upper to lower fail, But if you replace the upper intake they will usually have a new upper to lower..

Yes I know about the lower gasket issues, and I thought you were talking about the upper... There are issues there and the lower intake gaskets should always be replaced when doing the upper intake... There is no point in doing the upper is you are not going to replace the lower gaskets...

I will still bet my Money on a Filed upper intake in this case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BNaylor

The coolant if it gets into the crankcase will damage camshaft, crank and connecting rod bearings and then the engine will be toast.


the crankcase already has coolant in it. i checked the oil before we started to add coolant the first time and the oil level was ok. when the car finally started we ran for maybe 4 or 5 min.. after checking the oil level the next day, it showed to have an additional 1 or 2 quarts of fluid in it. it was not milky yet and has a total of 6 to 7 mins of run time in the hurt condition. the car is still sitting at a shop, we could not get a driver to tow it back to the house. with the car sitting there in this condition, will that cause a problem with the bearings??

my biggest question now is why was the steam was not noticiable when she lost the original coolant compared to when fresh coolant was added to an empty hot block. it did not steam so bad when the car was running with new coolant. it started to steam after it died and would not restart.

Hard to say and it depends on which gaskets blew or whether you have the EGR stovepipe meltdown issue since you have a '97 model. The important thing is do not start the engine or run it any further. Start the tear down to make an assessment. After the repair job you will need to flush out the crankcase of any remaining coolant. There are different ways to handle this either professionally or DIY. Sometimes just an oil drain and new oil filter will work along with adding an additive like Seafoam directly into the crankcase which helps pull any water/coolant/moisture out.

i will get on this project asap. i can get the the car home monday morning. thanks to all that posted. I will follow up with want I find...

ok guys and gals. i finally got the UIM off and i found it flooded with coolant/oil type mixture, please review pic. at this time pending ya'lls input this is as far as i am going to take it and put on the after market UIM from dorman. please note the oil pan contains probably an additional 2 qts of fluid??? the auto parts dealer "carquest" said with that much addional water in the pan, it still may be a blown head gasket.$$$$. I am doing this for a friend in attemp to salvage this car and she nor i really can dump the money into it to do the head job.

carquest sold the part for $136.00 which is the dorman product.

what should i do? cleanup the top of the LIM and just go back together with the new UIM and look for more problems that would show up instanly. And if the problems of LIM gaskets show up, just take it back down to the LIM gasket level???

or should i go futher now and inspect the LIM to head and block gaskets.

As you will see in the pic, how could so much coolant get on top of the LIM???

I did not notice any cracks in the EGR area of the old UIM. But i saw a lot of gasket issues that may cause a problem.

please help with ya'lls experience and knowlegde.

sorry, can't get the damn picture to post.. anyway the LIM top is flooded with antifreeze/ milky looking mixture...

thanks guys

Jason

well my message goofed and would not post the pic. anyway after revoming the UIM the LIM was flooded with a coolant/oily mixture. I could not find any cracks near the egr tube, but the gaskets around there were not in the best shape. how could so much coolant get into the oil pan. it is not milky yet

Well obviously, if you have coolant in the UIM/LIM, you have a leak in that area. A blown head gasket would not blow coolant into the intake! Replace the LIM & UIM gaskets at the same time you replace the UIM, no need doing the job twice! Check the area around the T/B flange as shown below.It would not hurt to do a compression test to check for a head gasket problem. If you have removed the UIM, to late to do a coolant pressure test. If you need help posting pics, PM me for more info. Good luck!


http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9769/egruimdamagepw4.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2407/egruimdamage2ga8.jpg

ok, i got the UIM installed. fired up the car and it runs normal except it still blows a little steam out off the exhaust. i should have taken the advice of some of the posters and gone ahead to the LIM gasket level.

I used some SEA FOAM to help clear out residual moisture in the crank case. The steam seams to get better as the engine gets hot ands burns off some of the excess water that was in the cat/muf.

Is there still a problem with the LIM gaskets, or crack head, or should i drive the car a little more to see if the steam goea away???

sorry forum. i did not see HOTZ28 post before my new reply. I proceeded with just the UIM and should have taken down to the LIM for $50.00 more on repair cost. I should still be able to dissasemble tmrw and go down to LIM.

Will the gaskets still be OK on my new UIM?

I would put 20 or 30 miles on it to see if the smoke goes away but keep a close eye on the temp and coolant level. Any sign of water/coolant leaks and you have to change the LIM gaskets.

I would also change the oil again after 300-500 miles since you had coolant in the pan and add an oil additive. I use Restore for 6 cylinder.

I agree, there no sense in worry about if if you don't know for sure there is a problem. Drive it for a while, keep an eye on the coolant level and one eye on the gauge. If anything goes wrong worry about it then!

yeeha, damn thing works great. i fired it up this morning, let it warm up, drove it for about 10 miles and all the the steam is gone.:) I guess the SEAFOAM was doing its job. I took it to the shop that wanted to do the long block job for $1800.00 and did a coolant pressure test and it is sealed.

I will continue to keep a close i eye on all the fluid levels for her abd change the oil again in the next few hundred miles.

Thank you all for all your help.

Enjoy your day

Jason

does this look familurehttp://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo135/jloessin/LIMflooded.jpg

Any pics of where the coolant leak originated?