Fuel related problems...

Hello,

1999 Buick Park Ave 3.8L non supercharged 8th digit vin K

Car has been not starting in the morning or when sitting for an extended period of time. Scanned for codes, nothing. It always runs flawless except the last few weeks, it has been pulling this crap intermittently. Every morning this week, it won't start unless you keep trying it for 5-10 mins. Pushing accelerator pedal a couple times.

I put in platinum+2 plugs and new wires, due for tune anyway. Got my fuel pressure guage on it and it said:

KOEO - 42psi
then slowly falling and after a few mins down to 30psi

KOER - 40psi

I went by the book/manual and followed the tests. Unplugged vacuum from fuel pressure regulator (while running) and the pressure jumped up to 48psi and held steady. Manual said if it jumped up in pressure, to check/replace regulator. I did, no change. What I did was leave the vacuum off the regulator and plug both sides for now so it will run in the morning, hopefully.

1) Is it ok to leave that unplugged?
2) Does this mean the pump is bad?

Thanks, I appreciate the help.

Don't leave the hose if you will have a rich mixture, not the answer. Scan it and look at coolant temp sensor inputs cold, clean the iac and throttle body, replace the fuel filter also, just general areas to look at for your condition. Press. is a little low, but that could be gage accuracy also. 47 is about right, hose on, try another gage to confirm.

Don't leave the hose if you will have a rich mixture, not the answer. Scan it and look at coolant temp sensor inputs cold, clean the iac and throttle body, replace the fuel filter also, just general areas to look at for your condition. Press. is a little low, but that could be gage accuracy also. 47 is about right, hose on, try another gage to confirm.

I have no problem checking the things you mention, the easy ones. Thing is, when I did the KOEO test it went to 42psi, then went steadily down within 2 mins to 30psi. With that leakdown, could it be anything other than the fuel pump? KOER was actually 47.5psi, but I rounded there.

It could be a bad Pump, Bad Pressure regulator( just because the pressure jumped up with the Vac disconnected doesn't mean the FPR isn't bypassing fuel back to the tank..)... Could even be a leaky injector..

Also how many miles do the Bosch Plats have on them? And I will tell you to never use them again on any GM with a DIS system..

It could be a bad Pump, Bad Pressure regulator( just because the pressure jumped up with the Vac disconnected doesn't mean the FPR isn't bypassing fuel back to the tank..)... Could even be a leaky injector..

Also how many miles do the Bosch Plats have on them? And I will tell you to never use them again on any GM with a DIS system..

I'm not a fan of Bosch anything, but the wife came home with them the other day so I replaced with them. It had AC Delco +2 in there. Apparently these are supposed to be better, but I'm not real confident about that. Anyway, they are in. Generally, AC Delco for GM, Autolite for Ford and Champion for Dodge, but...

I tuned the car up and replaced the FPR, so that's new. She had trouble again today starting up to leave work. My fuel pressure readings are the same regardless of the new FPR. Just that it jumps up when the vacuum is removed. Talked with Gm dealership here and they said I could try a fuel filter, but that it was probably the pump. So, I'll get the fuel filter anyway, normal tune up items. I'm getting a used pump tomorrow($100) because we just don't have $400 for a new one. She said get that one and I will(90 day warranty). All this labor is not costing anything cause it's me so we can do it this way.

Lucky for me, it has an access in the trunk. Funny thing though. About 5-7 years ago, a year or so after we bought this car from that dealership, I had to bring it back in and they replaced the fuel pump. In the process I waited and watched as this young tech (prob $7/hr) was trying in vain to get it out the access. I walked over and asked him how it was going. He said he couldn't get it out and that he'd have to drop the tank. LOL. I put the brakes on that right there and told him, naah, it'll come out this way, as I got in to try. It came out that way and I was just perplexed at the shit dealers give you. Servicewise and partswise. I knew more than this kid, but it was under warranty so heck, let them right? What I'd like to know now is why there has been atleast one, maybe two fuel pumps put in this thing since birth? I'm about to install the 3rd.

Fuel pumps in general are not an issue with this car, I don't think this is your problem.

Fuel pumps in general are not an issue with this car, I don't think this is your problem.

Just came in for a minute to wash up and check the mail. I have the plenum off right now and it is wet on the injector side, not the regulator side. I pulled on the injector hoses and two of them on that side pulled right up. So I plugged them back in and am going to change the regulator anyway since I'm there. I'll let you know what happens.

P.S. Max, I hope your right...

Hook it up to a scanner and read the engine temp when trying to start engine when cold; as suggested in post #2.

Hook it up to a scanner and read the engine temp when trying to start engine when cold; as suggested in post #2.

The scanner I have is a plain jane read the codes sort of thing. After replacing the FPR, it seems to run much better, but it is stalling out way bad and the battery is dead. I keep jumping it with my other car and let it runa min or two, but it still goes dead. Also I had the O2 sensor underneath, broken off and not fixed yet. It is nothing, but a nut on the hole now. Sealed, but not right. I have another one, but can't get that sucker out. I'm guessing that is my problem now. That and a dead battery. It was running better, but still alittle bit off. It ran good at high rpm, but not so stable at low. If I let off the gas, it might stall and then I had to hook up the cables again. I think we are getting there. If I need too, I will replace the ECT, if necessary.

Hook it up to a scanner and read the engine temp when trying to start engine when cold; as suggested in post #2.

Max and Z,

Disregard posts #7 and #9. I have another thing going with my S10 Blazer and I posted on the Buick forum by mistake.

So to the Buick. I don't want to take out the fuel pump if I don't have to, but I just got another one this AM. My Actron crappy scanner doesn't do much besides read codes etc. So, it's really just a code reader. Are you talking the ECT or CTS? Am I able to test it another way? I'd much rather replace that. I don't get any codes though, wouldn't it give me one for that? I'm on the verge of fixing this, but not there yet. You have me curious as to whether I should do the pump yet or not.

my moms 92 pa only thing that went wrong with it the whole time she had it. was water pump harmontic balenser,cps,and coil. when i thought it was module under coil pack bought the module put it on same thing i was wrong like i said ended up being coil pack.then about year later her maf sensor went i took it apart and cleand screen ran fine after that but she wanted a new one so i put new one on it for her.heres how it went it would run four awhile then die then it would start right back up and run little bit and die again.i think on fuel pump should be 40-48psi but that droping to 30psi that's not good.

coolant temp sensor not the one for gage.

On the VIN "K" SII 3800 engine found on the OP's PA the CTS and ECT are one and the same. CTS is the older term used. Coolant Temperature Sensor. Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor is now proper as far as terminology. The ECT output goes to the PCM module where it is processed and used for other functions and then to the IP gauge. I don't believe there is a separate sensor anymore like older GM engines. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

damn, got my spark plug tester on it and now there is no spark.

ideas?

no spark no gas no start i bet it is coil pack like i said earlier...

scrapper1

no spark no gas no start i bet it is coil pack like i said earlier...

scrapper1

I don't know if you are right, but I will give it a shot. This is new to me because I coulda swore it had spark the other day, but I've been cranking the hell out of it today and yesterday. Yesterday it wouldn't start period. Today the same. I got the spark plug tester out and I don't get anything. So this might be added to the original problem, I'm not sure. Fuel pressure was low, yes. Not much there except coils and ignition module, so a trip to the boneyard is in store tomorrow to find out. A new ign module is 250+ and coils, $30-60 each. Just wish I had a code to get something, but nothing.

I'm getting frustrated, but not discouraged.

I don't know if you are right, but I will give it a shot. This is new to me because I coulda swore it had spark the other day, but I've been cranking the hell out of it today and yesterday. Yesterday it wouldn't start period. Today the same. I got the spark plug tester out and I don't get anything. So this might be added to the original problem, I'm not sure. Fuel pressure was low, yes. Not much there except coils and ignition module, so a trip to the boneyard is in store tomorrow to find out. A new ign module is 250+ and coils, $30-60 each. Just wish I had a code to get something, but nothing.

I'm getting frustrated, but not discouraged.did you get it running yet? but yah go to have spark.i hope its that easy fix.

did you get it running yet? but yah go to have spark.i hope its that easy fix.
Nope, couldn't get it running since 2 days ago. It just won't start. But, like I said, with no spark then something else must've happened. I'm going to get another ign module and coils at the boneyard to see where we are at. Every time I get working on something, I lack parts.........................

did you get it running yet? but yah go to have spark.i hope its that easy fix.

Will post an update later...

no spark no gas no start i bet it is coil pack like i said earlier...

scrapper1

For the first time this weekend, I got the car running just now. I changed the coil packs and the ignition module they sit on. Thanks Scrapper.

I'm still hesitant about the fuel issue and will recheck everything tonight. The wife will kill me if it dies on her again at work. With a little luck, I won't have to change the fuel pump. Back to the beginning.

Will post more...

Are we forgeting ther crank sensor here, or did I miss something in the thread?

For the first time this weekend, I got the car running just now. I changed the coil packs and the ignition module they sit on. Thanks Scrapper.

I'm still hesitant about the fuel issue and will recheck everything tonight. The wife will kill me if it dies on her again at work. With a little luck, I won't have to change the fuel pump. Back to the beginning.

Will post more...well when your cranking it over the starter takes juice away from fuel pump.

Are we forgeting ther crank sensor here, or did I miss something in the thread?
Max,
I'm at my wits end right now. The wife is going to kill me because once again after the car sat for a while, it wouldn't start. I tried and tried and pushed the gas and then after a few more tries, it spit a little. Then I kept trying some more and all of a sudden, it started. I rechecked the fuel pressure. This is what I got again:

KOEO - 42psi
then slowly crept down to 32 after about 3-4 mins

KOER - 41-42psi steady
when I unhook the vacuum to the regulator, 48 steady

I'm thinking that all that is left is the pump.

I'm dead...Wife will not be happy.

Had a code for crank sensor awhile back, but cleared it and it never came back. I scan and get nothing now.

What brand fuel pressure gauge is this? The KOEO is too low. That is fuel pump prime which should be higher around 48-55 psi at the highest reading and the drop off of fuel pressure is abnormal. You might have leaky fuel injector(s) or the check valve (pressure side) in the fuel pump assembly is bad. What does the fuel pressure read at KOEO after about 15 minutes?

take out those dam plugs and see what you see in the color. because all that you've done.and i don't know but i might put another new pump in it.try this don't keep pumping hold gas to floor when it wont start that tells computer no more gas holding to floor when engine is not running.wait can you smell gas when it wont run after you pump the crap out of it?

It get's wackier.

This morning, wife told me car started fine and ran great. Hmmm.

I only held the accelerator down when it wasn't starting before. That was the only way to get it running. Plugs are fine, only hours old. Car starts and runs fine at the moment after cleaning and replacing ignition parts.

The fuel pressure guage I have is a Actron, I think. Bought from Advance auto just a few months ago. I've used it on other cars and it seemed to work fine.

Now, apparently the car ran fine this AM. We'll see if it does the same on the return trip home. I tend to agree with the post where these cars don't typically have fuel pump problems. But all I can do right now is wait and see if it continues to run normal.

Are we forgeting ther crank sensor here, or did I miss something in the thread?

I scan and get no codes. Car just got home and I'm told it started fine then after a minute driving down the road, it quit midstream. It had to be cranked for 5 mins before it restarted and made it home.

How do I tell between a leaky injector or bad fuel pump check valve?

i would be trying to see the pressure on fuel pump.do you still have spark at the coils? if so i'd pull plugs out again and look at them.but sounds like your not getting enough gas if you had to pump and pump it.

Wouldn't start again, no spark. Cranked many times then finally started. The AHA moment is at hand. Finally got a code, not surprisingly it was a P0336 CPS. I am just having a bit of trouble getting the HB off. Bolt is out, but the pulley won't budge off. Ideas?

I am sure that will take care of most of it. Then I can see if there really is an issue with the fuel. Ironically, at the beginning of the Summer, this same code came up, but I cleared it and it never came back and there were no issues with the driveability of the car. I shoulda known.

Now just have to get that harmonic balancer off somehow?!

To get the harmonic balancer off to replace the crank position sensor you need special tools like a harmonic balancer puller and the proper size and thread bolts. See the link below which has a tech procedure. Applicable to any GM cars with the SII 3800 engine. Pay special attention to the bolt specs.


Click here (http://mykidz.net/GTP/CrankPosSensor.shtml)

3 - 1/4" X 3" 28 NF (National Fine) screws for puller

The puller requires 3 - 1/4" X 3" bolts to connect, you need to get about 1/4" of it threaded in there before you try pulling it out

Bob, the bolt size shown in quote above (taken from the link provided), is not in keeping with standard bolt size terminology; and is described wrong. What it should say is: ¼ X 28 X 3 ¼. This size will work if you screw them in no more than ¼ in; however, for an exact fit to the balancer threads, the bolts should be 6 mm X 1.0 and the length of bolt in this application is 80 mm or; the full bolt description would be:
6 mm X 1.0 X 80 mm.

Finally, 1/4 X 28 thread is a finer thread (more threads per in) than the 6 mm 1.0, so therefore, you risk the possibility of damage to the balancer threads. You might get by a few times without stripping the threads, (if you are lucky) and that is the reason we mention “do not insert threads more than 1/4 in”. If you do tighten deeper, the mismatch becomes apparent and balancer threads will strip! :uhoh:

To get the harmonic balancer off to replace the crank position sensor you need special tools like a harmonic balancer puller and the proper size and thread bolts. See the link below which has a tech procedure. Applicable to any GM cars with the SII 3800 engine. Pay special attention to the bolt specs.


Click here (http://mykidz.net/GTP/CrankPosSensor.shtml)

Thanks BN. I've seen that link before, not too long ago. Everything was easy as pie, just the one place I am getting stuck is getting the hb off. I have an hb puller with the right bolts, I believe. If I remember correctly, at the Summer beginning, I was going to change this sensor anyway (when I got a code before) and had the same problem. Even with my impact on, it just started bending the washers that were on the 3 bolts. Maybe stronger washers or more of them. I'm going to give it another go though tonight. I'll keep ya posted.

If there is only no spark out of any of the coils and there is no injector pulse than the module would be more of a suspect since it gathers and sends the data from the crank sensors and sends them to the PCM which process and sends back the correct info to the module and injectors.

I would not be hesitant to consider the crank sensor is not doing it job as well. If this fails there will be no spark as well.

This ignition system has three coils so this only applies if there is no spark out of any of the coils. Some of the older buicks mentioned here likely had a Magnavox ignition system which had all three coils in one pack. These systems where know for coil failures after a hot soak. start it, run for a while, stall, would not restart until it cooled of for 20-30 minutes and the cycle repeated.

Oooops, apperantly I should have read page two!

I usually stack three progressively larger washers on my puller. This has worked well over the years.

I do think you are deffinetely on the right track with the crank sensor!!

If there is only no spark out of any of the coils and there is no injector pulse than the module would be more of a suspect since it gathers and sends the data from the crank sensors and sends them to the PCM which process and sends back the correct info to the module and injectors.

I would not be hesitant to consider the crank sensor is not doing it job as well. If this fails there will be no spark as well.

This ignition system has three coils so this only applies if there is no spark out of any of the coils. Some of the older buicks mentioned here likely had a Magnavox ignition system which had all three coils in one pack. These systems where know for coil failures after a hot soak. start it, run for a while, stall, would not restart until it cooled of for 20-30 minutes and the cycle repeated.

Oooops, apperantly I should have read page two!

I usually stack three progressively larger washers on my puller. This has worked well over the years.

I do think you are deffinetely on the right track with the crank sensor!!

Yeah, I decided to change the CPS because I got a code for it last night. I'm almost certain this will cure that. But there still might be a fuel pump issue. One thing at a time though.

Bob, the bolt size shown in quote above (taken from the link provided), is not in keeping with standard bolt size terminology; and is described wrong. What it should say is: ¼ X 28 X 3 ¼. This size will work if you screw them in no more than ¼ in; however, for an exact fit to the balancer threads, the bolts should be 6 mm X 1.0 and the length of bolt in this application is 80 mm or; the full bolt description would be:[/FONT]
6 mm X 1.0 X 80 mm.

Thanks for pointing that out Bo. I realize that but overall it is a good tech procedure considering it has pics, etc. and there are none like it posted on AF to help guide the members. Many AF members have used it with no complaints and the bolts specified in the procedure work. I've used it and was able to successfully remove the harmonic balancer and complete crank sensor replacement. Many harmonic balancer puller kits actually come with those same bolts. Of course, the ones you rent at Autozone don't and you will be out trying to round them up.

Plus we do have it posted at Grand Prix Tips & Maintenance since 12-09-2006 and so far the thread has over 900 views with no complaints since the thread is left open for discussion. See link below.

Click here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=652664)

However, later I was able to find the GM Kent Moore J harmonic balancer puller on EBay for a good deal and it has the proper hardened, shouldered and exact fit bolts. You can always send the guy that made the procedure an email but obviously he was able to get the job done with what he had to work with and his budget.

don't use crowes foot or the 3 or 4 jaw you cant rent at autozone.if you no someone that works in a factory try to let you use a bearing puller it has one jaw at each side and it takes it of smooth as hell that what i use works great and slides right off.

don't use crows foot or the 3 or 4 jaw you cant rent at autozone.if you no someone that works in a factory try to let you use a bearing puller it has one jaw at each side and it takes it of smooth as hell that what i use works great and slides right off.

The threaded holes in the harmonic Balancer are there for when you need to use a "crows foot" type harmonic balancer puller tool. USING ANYTHING ELSE CAN DAMAGE THE PULLEY. Since the pulley part is mounted to the balancer with essentially rubber you want to pull from the inside (threaded holes) rather than the outside (possibly ruining the rubber joint)

i'm telling you your wrong he trys the autzone junk it'll take him longer. ok this bearing puller has two jaws like a pitman arm puller and they slide right off with this bearing puller it is a sweet deal put jaws on there tighting the bolt down on bearing puller and it's off. where i got this is a factory called TECK GROUP...

The threaded holes in the harmonic Balancer are there for when you need to use a "crows foot" type harmonic balancer puller tool. USING ANYTHING ELSE CAN DAMAGE THE PULLEY. Since the pulley part is mounted to the balancer with essentially rubber you want to pull from the inside (threaded holes) rather than the outside (possibly ruining the rubber joint)

I have an hb puller. Only problem I can see is the clearance of one of the threaded bolts to the mount/frame portion right there on top. Other than that, it's easy.

Just gotta get some more bolts. Lost 2 along the way.

Gentleman, can we please get this thread back on track. The OP answered which harmonic balancer puller he has and is using. If you want to discuss the pro and cons of tools we have other forums at AF Cars in General where you can do that. Time to move on. Everyone's cooperation is appreciated.

Clearance wont be an issue. Those bolts will snug the puller almost flush with the pulley. once its broken loose the puller can be removed (rotate the pulley to gain access to all of the bolts) and the pulley will come right off.

Ok gentleman,

Here's what I have. I used 2 1/2 inch fine bolt threads and they worked perfect. I also figured out what I did wrong last time. It was actually pretty easy to do. SO the new CPS is in there and no codes. Starts and runs fine. Real test will be tomorrow when the wife takes it to work 1/2 hour away. I'll post the final results then, but I think this may have been the whole problem all along. Everyone's help was appreciated.

Thanks.

Problem solved!

Never was a fuel issue, although the readings I got were low. Either bad gauge or possibly need a fuel filter. CPS took care of it.

I thank all those that had input.