EDIT: NEW START & THREAD SUMMARY AT POST #129: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5849490#post5849490
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Start of original thread:

Description of Problems:
1. I'm getting 9 - 11mpg on a new Jasper engine
2. Idle pulses/hunts constantly in Park from 600 - 800 rpms
3. Sometimes under accel/load driving the van jerks. Its actually hard to describe what it does, but its as if it can't make up its mind about going forward or possibly what gear its in or like it isn't getting gas or something.
4. Engine attempts to stall IMMEDIATELY following the radiator cooling fans turning OFF. This has made me think perhaps the CCRM is going bad because I don't know what else would do this unless its an electrical (bad ground) issue.

I'm not sure if the 2 (MPG and idle pulsing) are related, but I believe them to be.

I believe the van is running a little hot at idle. It has gotten up to between the R and M which is higher than it ever used to go though I observed this with only the Ypipe attached and the rest of the exhaust wasn't which may have had something to do with it. It religiously used to stay between the M and the A on the temp gauge and since the new engine its always in the M to R range on the temp gauge. Was thinking it could be that I didn't use a Motorcraft thermostat, but it also could be related to the idle and MPG issues.

Things tried:
New cats (Magnaflow ypipe)
New cat-back exhaust upgrade (Borla discontinued model)
New O2s (putting old ones back in after cleaning them if they still work from cleaning)
Cleaned MAS/AFM
New engine
New plugs and wires
Rebuilt tranny 20k old
New VSS
New TRS (neutral safety switch)
New water pump
New IAC
New thermostat (not motorcraft, but supposed to be OEM temp)
New radiator with system flush
New PCM
New battery
Regrounded alternator with better cable
New DPFE sensor
New coolant/heater hoses
New ABS HCU
New alternator pulley (tracking down a squeaky belt)
New compressor clutch assembly (though I've noticed now the compressor is leaking)
New power steering pump and filter
New accumulator for a/c
New brakes/pads in front (no drag)
New (fairly) pcv valve though I could check it again
New air filter (K&N)
New fuel filter 8k miles ago

Thoughts!?:
1. Plug gap accurate? Supposed to have been set from factory - Autolite Iridiums

2. VSS (speed sensor) - The new gear I had it come with. I'm hoping I was not given the wrong gear from the 3.0L engine as they said they made sure it was for the 3.8L engine, but this could cause bad MPG.

3. Alternator/Grounds - Tests fine a while back (could test again with my multimeter) and always has though I have my eye on it for failure as just about everything else is new. I almost want to replace it just because its so old (158k), but as the O2 sensors have shown me I probably shouldn't. I am worried though about the grounding in the engine bay as if I were to remove the cable from the alternator to the frame the van will not function AT ALL and I mean no power to anything inside. Is that normal? Could this mean the battery isn't grounded well at the negative terminal/cable?

I have also noticed the instrument panel lights dim out a lil bit after I let off the accelerator and then they come back to normal brightness instantly. There are times too when I press either door lock buttons or window buttons on either door that there is absolutely no response and it takes a repress of these buttons to get the locks/windows to work. Does this speak to a ground issue?

4. Could the a/c compressor leaking cause drag on the serp belt?

5. CCRM?

6. Ultimate question: Why does the van try to stall when the radiator fans TURN OFF and ONLY at this point? It attempts to stall at NO OTHER time.

7. Should the coolant fully remove from the coolant reservoir? It stays at COLD level even when hot. Also, the tranny cooler was never cleaned or replaced after my overheating and water pump failure. I'm unaware since I didn't install it if there is coolant or just tranny oil going through the tranny cooler. The cooler I'm talking about is in front of the radiator at the very front of the van and looks like a mini-radiator.

On my other car when the coolant temperature reaches the same temperature (within about 3 - 5 degrees at MAX) the cooling fans kick on. Apparently from observation my Windstar isn't turning on the cooling fans consistently. The temperature seems to variate a lot bouncing between the R and M and A on the temp gauge before the fans kick on. Could this indicate a faulty coolant temp sensor (ECT)?

The shop manual says the coolant reservoir helps to maintain the correct volume of engine coolant. I have let the van sit running for 30 minutes several times and the coolant level in the reservoir NEVER changed. The manual points to obstruction in the coolan reservoir line or a faulty radiator cap. I think after all I've spent spending a few bucks more to get a new rad cap is worth it. I'm gonna pull and inspect the reservoir hose as well. I'm approaching this for once now with "lets deal with the symptoms" rather than the backwards way and the symptoms are that the temperature gauge is not holding steady like it used to on the old high mileage engine, when the cooling fans turn OFF the van tries to stall at idle and the coolant reservoir level NEVER changes.

You might try a new radiator cap....as cheap as they are.
Mine gave me problems in maintaining pressure......I had to keep messing with it as I kept finding that it was not holding pressure.
I got the normal cap.....no pressure release thing....just one that was just like the OE one.

I don't know if a new CCRM would help or not.
Only way to know is to change it.......more money....but then it is old.
Mine needed replacing 2 times......the 2nd time was because the A/C relay was not holding the A/C compressor on.....following the A/C cycling on and off a lot when the A/C charge went down......due to a leak in the evaporator coil.
So....the CCRM might be worth a try.

Another test.....you could try unplugging the radiator fans VERY TEMPORARILY to see if the stumble still happens.

The tranny cooler inside the side tank......on the passenger side of the radiator and the tranny cooler in front of the radiator (if equiped) both have ONLY transmission fluid flowing through them.
Inside the radiator......the coolant flows OVER the fins of the tranny cooler.

Per this thread: "Dropping Resistor (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=732240)" - I have checked my dropping resistor and its broken. It wasn't "all the way" broken, but it was cracked all over, pieces off, and was on its way out. This could be the cause for my fan cut off issues though I don't know about the MPG issues.

I've ordered a new radiator cap and new dropping resistor to solve the coolant level problem and the resistor to hopefully solve the near stall problem at low fan cut-off. We'll see.

O2s - I put the old freshly cleaned O2's back in tonight and rebolted everything. I started it up twice and let run for just a couple minutes cause of no low fan speed. I did not receive a CEL so I'm assuming my O2's are ok since my cleaning of them and since they are self heated. I don't want to do a full test to operating temp though until I get my low fan speed operation back. Meanwhile I'll see if Autozone will take back the other O2's which may be a doozy cause the couple of startups I did, DID change the look of the sensor guard/tip. I'll see what a lil cleanup can do. lol - If not then I'll have to try and sell'em here or on Ebay cause I need the cash.

Wiswind - thanks for the suggestions btw.

I know the CCRM is responsible for current and turning stuff on and off, but could the CCRM be indirectly related to bad MPG? Have you known it to be?

Food for thought. I read tonight that O2 replacement on OBDII systems for the sake of preventative maintenance is pretty much a waste of time. On OBDII systems you are either gonna be alerted by the computer that its failed or notice it big time some other way. The worry about O2 replacement for preventative maintenance is mainly for pre-OBDII vehicles.

Now I don't feel so bad putting the old ones back in. I realize they slow down over time, but this may be due to deposit buildup on the sensor element itself which I hopefully eliminated with my cleaning process. If its due to degrading of internal ceramic though thats a different story.

Hello

I would look into the battery ground cable. Check it for internal resistance. It could look fine on the outside but be totally rotten on the inside. The fact that if you remove the alt ground and you don't get any life means that other grounds aren't being effective.

You've practially replaced every thing on that van!

One good check is to put your volt meter on the battery ground and on a good ground on the body. Watch the meter when the fan shuts off. You might see a spike or a drop in voltage???.... I know that the ECU doesn't like drastic voltage changes. I had a vehical that the engine would stumble when the fan turned on just for a bit. Those fans really do draw the juice.

I take it that you didn't experience this poor millage and poor running before the new engine was installed. I also take it that you didn't install the engine. I always say "just because you pay someone to do something doesn't mean it's done right".

On my 98 Windstar, which I had bought with right front body damage, I had to remove much of the wiring in the engine bay on the front of the sheetmetal inferstructor. I missed a ground wire on reassambly (the hole had been welded shut). I had some really wierd things going on. Flashing ABS and Brake light, with a clicking noise under the dash. I still have airbag and SEL issues. They could be because I missed another ground wire.

Regards,

Dan

Hello

I would look into the battery ground cable. Check it for internal resistance. It could look fine on the outside but be totally rotten on the inside. The fact that if you remove the alt ground and you don't get any life means that other grounds aren't being effective.

You've practially replaced every thing on that van!

One good check is to put your volt meter on the battery ground and on a good ground on the body. Watch the meter when the fan shuts off. You might see a spike or a drop in voltage???.... I know that the ECU doesn't like drastic voltage changes. I had a vehical that the engine would stumble when the fan turned on just for a bit. Those fans really do draw the juice.

I take it that you didn't experience this poor millage and poor running before the new engine was installed. I also take it that you didn't install the engine. I always say "just because you pay someone to do something doesn't mean it's done right".

On my 98 Windstar, which I had bought with right front body damage, I had to remove much of the wiring in the engine bay on the front of the sheetmetal inferstructor. I missed a ground wire on reassambly (the hole had been welded shut). I had some really wierd things going on. Flashing ABS and Brake light, with a clicking noise under the dash. I still have airbag and SEL issues. They could be because I missed another ground wire.

Regards,

Dan

Thanks Dan.

Yes, the old engine ran good MPG as far as I was concerned and the shop did install the engine and it was their 2nd install of an engine for my van in a matter of 2-3 weeks due to the 1st one being defective. Great luck I have. I trust my shop though and worked with them very closely to get it all squared away in the end, but I don't count out that they may have left something out cause I gave them a hell of a list of things to do while everything was apart.

Finally someone to confirm that removing the alt cable and the van dying means I could have a bad ground somewhere else!

How would I properly check the negative cable for resistance? Just put the voltmeter probes at both ends of the cable and see what I get?

Putting the voltmeter on the battery terminal negative post (I assume is what you meant by battery ground) and the other end on a good ground on the body won't blow the meter up in my face huh? lol

DAN !!! YOU GENIUS ! LOL
I just went out (remembered how to test) and tested resistance from ground mount to ground mount on the mounts and on the wires themselves in all the spots I could see. I wish I would've known about resistance testing before I put that cable from the alt to the frame cause now this is all coming back to me from when I did a bunch of this testing on my car.

The alt cable itself measures .5 ohm and from the alt body to the frame where its mounted is about .6-.7 but starts off initially at 1.7 till I press firmly. - As far as I'm concerned this cable needs to go. I thought it was still good, but apparently not. I'd rather have it closer to 0 ohm... at most a .3 ohm.

The real problem though seems to be right where you suggested to check at the battery negative cable. The negative THICKEST cable is actually perfect at 0 ohms, but when i measured the other two lil ones connected there the one closest to the driver side fender measures like 1.6 - 1.7 ohms. From remembering what a guy told me when I did this on my car anything over 1 is bad. DUDE !!!! THANKS FOR JARRING MA BRAIN!

At least now I know for sure that something was wrong here with the grounds and that my dropping resistor also is defunct. Perhaps these two things will yield me a FIX !!!!!!!! *$)_!*$)**** PERHAPS PERHAPS ! If it doesn't then at least thats something else out of the way and I can then focus on the O2's again or whatever else. I'm gonna price a new negative cable, but it would be nice if I could just fix it myself.

I hope this thing runs for a very long time for you! I hope the ground problem fixes things for you!

Regards

Dan

Thanks Dan. I hope so too. lol - Its been quite a journey and I think I deserve some good long years of service out of this thing and I won't quit till I get to that status.

I was looking over the ground locations and my theory about the dropping resistor affecting idle may possibly hold water. Its directly off the main power distribution from the battery. The 2nd diagram is the stuff next down the power line.

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/BatteryPowerDistributionDiagram1.jpg

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/BatteryPowerDistributionDiagram2.jpg

I'm pretty pissed. My test results are skewed and I either did a lot of work for nothing or I still have an electrical problem.

I thought that it didn't matter which probe you used "WHERE" (red or black) when testing resistance??? When I test one way I get 0 ohms and the other way I now get 1.1 ohms. This is reduced from 1.7 and thats good n all, but still I was testing with the probes situated such that I got 0 ohms and was like HORRAAAY... and now I'm all pissed cause when I swap the probes I get the 1.1 still. I completely disassembled the negative crimped cable end with the 3 cables and redid it with a new battery terminal and thats how I got down to 1.1.

Only some of my testing in the last 5 minutes I did swapping probes so I don't know really what test results are accurate.

EDIT: Can you have a bad ground in the battery itself? I ask because it seemed like as soon as I connected the battery the resistance showed up at 1.1 and the cables themselves were 0 ohms when not connected. Though again I'm not sure about this "flip flop" the probes bit.

DUB-EDIT: Should I not be testing resistance with the battery connected? I was testing resistance with the positive cable still attached and the negative one detached then in the end I tested with both pos/neg cables attached.

TRI-EDIT: I was able to find my multimeter's user's manual online and it says to only test resistance with no power connected. Does that mean not only should I have removed the neg cable, but the pos cable too? When I did the tests with the battery connected I didn't do it for very long and nothing seemed to break or pop.

You should check resistance with no power in the circuit.
Removing the negative battery cable should be fine.....

One thing that you should do.
Measure the resistance of your meter LEADS......
It is normal to see some very small amound of resistance......but it can be more if the leads are going bad.....or even with the connection between the leads and meter in the plug.
When you think you are getting funky readings......do a quick touch of the ends of the leads together for a sanity check.
I use a DMM all the time in my "day job".

Bad.....or intermittent grounds will cause all kinds of problems.
Some of those grounds.....particularly the negative battery cable carry a LOT of current......
A cable that carries a LOT of current can check out perfect....and fail under load.
For what they cost.......replace.

Batteries have a variety of ways to fail......so, yes....a connection issue there is possible......so that would be a place to look after verifying the ground......and while you are at it.......why not check the power connections?

With the engine changes.......and the age of the cables......worth a good check....as you are doing.
A cable that checks good....but has visible broken wire strands....etc.....should be repaired or replaced.

I cannot see why you would not be able to get at least 20-23mpg on the freeway.
This is going the speed limit.....with the cruise control.
As fuel becomes more expensive.....I have been trying to be more efficient with my '96.
Your '95 does not have the IMRC......which is a nice power boost....but is a MAJOR drain on fuel economy.
Performance and economy are opposite ends of the spectrum.
However......taking it easy will get you the MPG......once you get things resolved.

As I have mentioned.....and you mention above.....just replacing Oxygen sensors because they are old is not necessary.
They do slow down with age.
If they get too slow.....the OBDII system will light the CEL and have a code telling you that they are switching too slow.
I DID change my upstream oxygen sensors with Motorcraft ones......while they work just great.......I got no difference in performance or economy.
That was at about 160K+ miles....and they had slight green stains from the coolant leak at the lower intake manifold gaskets.

I'm also continuing to hang on to my windstar....as I only have to drive 10 minutes each way to work......fuel economy is not as critical....and I have use for the utility of the minivan.
It would cost me more to have a 2nd vehicle just for the fuel economy aspects.
Not having a car payment enables me to pay ahead on my mortgage....and pay cash for upgrades to the house.
Maybe even pay cash for my next vehicle.

I am hoping that you get the smooth running and economy aspects in line soon.

Lots of sanity checks. :runaround::banghead::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cen ts::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents ::2cents::2cents:

I have checked the resistance on the DMM recently, but for sanity I will do it again. Come to think of it now I do believe my "funky" readings may have only been when the negative cable was connected. At least now I know though "which" test mode is APPROPRIATE so that all future readings as long as the neg cable is removed will be cool.

I took apart and repaired, recrimped, and reterminaled the positive cable a long time ago. I resistance checked it too today and it seemed fine (this was for sure with the neg cable off).

I may go out in the drive way tonight and try these tests again so I can sleep better. lol

FYI on the Ypipe situation - Anyday now Magnaflow is going to send me shipping info so I can get the Ypipe thing squared away. I'd usually move on to another brand at this point, but I'll be returning the pipe to the seller for my money back and getting a free one from Magnaflow (their guinea pig) in return + my old pipe back as well. Hard to pass that up even though its gonna be a few weeks wait and after all I really did want Magnaflow brand cats. In any case the van will sit with tape over the exhaust manifolds till I get the new Ypipe back. Might be a good time to go buy a cover for the van cause its gonna go in the backyard till I get the new pipe.

Thanks Wiswind.

As if things weren't dragged out enough the f___ing ford direct online place sent me 2 completely different parts than I ordered. The only similarity is the word "CAP" as they sent me a power steering reservoir and cap for it. I believe they sent me someone elses order. Now of course I have to go through the whole damn process of shipping it back and forth.

Reshipping: Parts are supposedly on the way.

Ok. New dropping resistor and new radiator cap installed.

Problem with almost stalling now seems worse.

New Problem: There's a little capped off spout opposite of the radiator overflow reservoir spout. It is held in place with a small hose clamp and some sort of rubber hose cap. Once it was up to operating temp radiator fluid started coming out of this spot at a pretty fast drip-rate.

Does this possibly mean that the old cap wasn't doing its job? and if so could this result in bad mpg?

Should I look at replacing the cooling fans themselves? or should I hook up OBDII monitoring and see if the computer can tell me something?

I'd have to buy the attachment for use with my computer cause I can't afford an OBDII tool at the moment.

Also Note: The old o2 sensors are reinstalled after my cleaning procedure. There is no CEL light though so I won't believe they are causing this almost stall condition until I can get a logger on the computer.

Tests to try remaining on the van

1. LeSabre97mint - Voltage spike test - One good check is to put your volt meter on the battery ground and on a good ground on the body.
Watch the meter when the fan shuts off. You might see a spike or a drop in voltage???.

2. Wiswind - I don't know if a new CCRM would help or not.
Only way to know is to change it.......more money....but then it is old.
Mine needed replacing 2 times......the 2nd time was because the A/C relay was not holding the A/C compressor on.....following the A/C cycling on and off a lot when the A/C charge went down......due to a leak in the evaporator coil.
So....the CCRM might be worth a try.


Things left to try replacing before drawing a complete blank:
ccrm
alternator
bad grounds or wire shorts somewhere that I haven't found?


What would be the symptoms of a voltage regulator going bad?

My A/C had never been serviced till this big event in October (157k miles). I did notice prior to the engine replacement that the a/c switched on and off a lot and I notice that now as well. It didn't have a leak before and always put out very good cold, but I know it does have a leak now since the engine install.

I'm going to try the voltage test LeSabre97mint recommends, but while I'm sure I'll observe something I wonder what that will tell me if anything? If I see a spike is that an alternator going bad? or a short? bad ground? If I see it dropping whats that mean? lol

Wait a second. Maybe it is the regulator in the alternator.

1. PCM had to be replaced

2. MAS Replaced 1 day after the PCM had to be replaced because one of its wires at the sensor element itself had popped/severed itself off.

3. IAC had to be replaced just a few months before 1 and 2

4. Dropping resistor had to be replaced recently after engine overheat in October

Now I realize these are wear items and others have replaced them too, but they are all electrical.

The MAS element wire popping off normal?
PCM needing replacement normal?
IAC replacement normal?
Dropping resistor replacement normal?

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I wonder how many others have replaced all of these items for needing to do so?

Wait a second. Maybe it is the regulator in the alternator.

1. PCM had to be replaced

2. MAS Replaced 1 day after the PCM had to be replaced because one of its wires at the sensor element itself had popped/severed itself off.

3. IAC had to be replaced just a few months before 1 and 2

4. Dropping resistor had to be replaced recently after engine overheat in October

Now I realize these are wear items and others have replaced them too, but they are all electrical.

The MAS element wire popping off normal?
PCM needing replacement normal?
IAC replacement normal?
Dropping resistor replacement normal?

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I wonder how many others have replaced all of these items for needing to do so?
i've had a similar problem with my 95, lurches at times, it seems to only do it when the van is not good and warm and the a/c compressor kicks on. i just got to where i didn't cut the a/c on until i was on the road. as far as mpg goes, i don't know, i can't afford to fill mine up so i can test it. i know there's a sensor somewhere that idles the engine up when the compressor cuts on, i just don't know where it is.

Come to think of it guys (n gals if there are any here) this behavior was present on my previous engine, but it was just not as prevalent or bad. The description here (http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/EnginePerformanceSymptoms.html#PoorPerformanceRich MixtureSmellFaultyFPR) towards the end of that post:

"After taking a look under the hood, I noticed that when the engine can be seen shaking a great deal more than it should, literally jerking itself back and forth. It often sounds like the engine is just going to cut out, only to rev up again. (it repeats this process indefinitely"

and the description in the next post after it:

"Engine Hesitation: Bad Fuel Pressure Regulator. [Symptoms:] occasional stalling engine at idle; occasional stumble at cruising speed, resulting in 1-2 seconds of deceleration like I'd turned the key off."

That is EXACTLY what my van is doing except that I think because everything else is in such good shape now it won't stall.

The fix for BOTH of those posts was the fuel pressure regulator (FPR).

If it is the FPR perhaps its not completely bad, but going bad because when the cooling fan cuts off fuel pressure is barely feather adjusted and maybe it can't take this small adjustment anymore.

"MAS wire popping off?".....that is NOT normal.
Replace PCM......also NOT normal to be needed
CCRM?.....if not already replaced......I would replace it.....It has been updated with a improved fuel pump relay since our old vehicles were built.
A/C.....Best to have a qualified person check it out.
Fuel pressure regulator.....not a normal failure item.......
Volage regulator....part of the Alternator assembly.....
Grounds and power connections......if not good connection....all kinds of problems can result.

I am so unfamiliar with models other than my '99, I don't have much to offer.

One tip about finding "ground" problems: Sometimes check with voltmeter (not ohmmeter) if possible. This has opportunities especially if the ground conductor carries a sizable current. Of course, you hope always to see 0.000 volts at a ground connector. I once found that anti-sieze material on starter mounting bolt threads, where a ground was located, was causing my whole charging system to be "off" ...leading to dead batteries. There was a 1/2+ volt rise on this bolt when the starter was engaged. An old Escort. (Be careful with this technique.)

Also, I have read nothing about an "engine temp sensor" in this string ... does the '95 even have one?

Have you checked the battery voltage on the vehicle? If not then I'd suggest recording the following three voltages. Even if it turns out that the electrical system is all good, it's always worth keeping a record of these voltages so that you know what's normal for your particular vehicle in the event that you suspect electrical problems at a later date.

=============================================

Voltage after sitting parked overnight, but before starting engine - should be around 12.6V (indicates that there is no excessive current drain with the ignition in the Off position, and that the battery is capable of holding at least some level of charge).

Voltage with engine idling - should be towards the high end of thirteen-point-something volts - maybe as high as 14V (indicates that the alternator is producing output current, and that that current is reaching the battery. Also indicates that the rectifier is functioning, converting AC to DC).

Voltage when revving engine slightly - should climb to around 14.4V and then hold steady at that voltage regardless of further increase in engine speed. (Indicates that the voltage regulator is functioning, and clamping the upper voltage threshold at the correct level).

=============================================

There's no reason to suspect parasitic drain in your particular case but that first reading (after sitting overnight but prior to cranking engine) is worth recording because that voltage will start to fall somewhat as the battery ages and its internal resistance increases as a result of sulphation of the plates, so it can be an early indicator.

Just a few words on what your voltage regulator actually does. First thing to understand is that the alternator can't produce any output unless it has an input in the form of current flowing through the field coil. The voltage regulator controls that current through the field coil to maintain a stable output voltage (at the B+ terminal, which feeds current to the battery). The regulator is constantly busy performing this task, so as various electrical loads are switched on (headlamps, blower motor, etc.) it will increase the field coil current to maintain a stable battery voltage, and as those loads are switched off, it will reduce the field coil current, again to maintain that same stable voltage.

The voltage which it aims for is around 14.2 to 14.4V - this differs slightly depending on the particular make and model but it's always there or thereabouts.

Not all alternators will supply full voltage at idling speed, so idling voltage might be as low as 13.5V on some vehicles, or above 14V on others, but with the engine revved somewhat above idle, the voltage should settle at around 14.4V and then remain steady at that voltage regardless of further increase in engine speed.

It's also worth noting that not all voltage regulators are created equal - some will be designed up to a specification, whilst others will be designed down to a price. Therefore not all regulators will display the tight control over output voltage which I was referring to, above. Some manufacturers will supply a specific set of test procedures for determining if the regulator is healthy - something along the lines of - switching different loads on and off - headlights etc., and monitoring voltage to see if it remains within stated specifications.

I just had a look at one online manual for your Windstar and the alternator/regulator testing procedure consisted of simply checking that battery voltage was within the range of 14.1 to 14.7v with the engine at normal operating temperature, so that really isn't much help.

I'd make a note of those three voltages though - they may not shed any light on your present problems but you'll have them available as a reference for the future.

The 1995 windstar has a engine temperature sensor.....
The 1995 was also fully OBDII complient......makes sense in the design stage as they knew that it would have to be with the 1996 model.

Thanks so much everybody. I have been dealing with this crap since October and it is very hard to contain myself. This just has to end very soon. With as much work as I'm putting in its like I should have this thing beating out sports cars or something.

Fuel Pressure Regulator
I read you aren't supposed to smell or see fuel when you take the vac hose off it. I removed the vac hose and believe the engine adjusted as it was supposed to, but I did smell a "hint" and I mean a HINT just once of fuel. I guess I wasn't supposed to smell "ANY AT ALL" (anyone advise?) which could mean of course the FPR needs to be replaced.

Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECT)
It is the original. I looked at the connections for it today and cleaned it with electronic parts cleaner. Made sure was dry before replugging it in. I think this is working properly, though I have not tested it specifically. Since I replaced the cooling fan dropping resistor I noticed the fans kicking on where/when they used to and the temp gauge is back where it used to be as well with the old engine between the "A" and the "M".
Alt, Battery & Grounds Resistance
I have had the alt checked myself and at my shop a few times and it tests good as does the battery.

I retested resistance today with the neg cable off. Every ground I know of went right to 0.00ohm. Some started at a higher number, but as I held it and pressed harder it went to 0.00.

The only grounds I know of are at the alternator, one near the radiator cap on the frame, one opposite that one on the frame by battery, of course the negative cable with 3 grounds out of it. All of these test good.

Voltage
I wanted to retest voltage for spiking when fully warmed, but I still do not have the exhaust pipe setup finished and that heat coming out directly under the middle of the van disintegrates the heat shield paper under there. I need to get the exhaust finished which has turned out to be a major hassle holding me up on trivial tests that require the engine to be fully warmed. I'm taking the ypipe I bought tomorrow to get the rear upstream o2 port moved slightly and then this exhaust saga should be over with except for needing to cut the muffler hanger in the rear due to it interfering with the tow package. After those 2 things are done the system will finally be "BOLT-ON".

12Ounce - Odd that someone would've put antiseize at the starter bolt. I replaced my starter when I first got the van and I didn't put any on nor is there any at the alternator. Good call though.

Selectron - I'll put your voltage tests on my hit list for after I get the exhaust stuff done tomorrow. I appreciate these techniques as I didn't know how to test for alt regulator or rectifier proper operation. I guess those tests equate to what the stupid machine at Autozone (which never works right) does when it does work right.

wiswind - I've been putting off the CCRM for a while now cause of $. Though if my testing in the next few days does nothing for my situation I'm probably gonna order it. Thanks for your info as always on the items I've replaced being fairly normal or not for needing replacement.

Searcherr, I don't think I can add much more than what others have brought up. No battery/alt light come one any? If it's the original alt, you could have a "used up" voltage regulator, which includes the brushes. It is replaceable as a unit or just the brushes, as the alt is quite expensive. But at this point a bench test of it would be worthwhile just to eliminate it. Unfortunately, I have had the alt light flicker on two of my vehicles in identical ways, with the Windstar issue clearing up on its own after having a battery go dead, so I'm guessing maybe the brushes were complaining and then straightened out. The rest of the voltage reg. is electronic, so I wouldn't expect that to fix itself. There wasn't time or an incidence of strange electrical behavior, but what you've described definitely needs investigation. My other vehicle my guess could have been fixed with a new voltage regulator, but I didn't not knowing better to try. Ouch, could have saved over $100.

Selectron would probably know better than I, but I believe that there should not be any significant voltage spikes caused by turning things off as that is part of the purpose of the voltage regulator. I'd guess anything more than a 1/2 volt spike would not be good or normal.

I can't quote or locate it, but I have read on the forum (if not windstar, then taurus) about peculiar performance behavior caused by the ECT as the PCM uses the engine temp to help determine air fuel/trim and transmission operation (or the trans has its own temp sensor that can do weird stuff, don't remember). FYI, the ECT has been in use prior to the 95 windstar in EEC-IV type systems (and possibly others) like the Taurus as they too have a pcm that utilizes that info. I'd also recommend searching discussions on the fuel regulator, again with Windstar and Taurus, as they are very similarly configured.

After I saved this, I read your latest post, so I will add that the bench test verses the underhood test the auto stores do are not equal, with the bench test being much better. I believe they load test it, measure it's output, and check the voltage on the field, and whatever other outputs there are, which they can't do in the car. For example, they weren't able to tell anything was wrong with my alt in the car, but out of it, they could tell the switching diodes were breaking down, the rectifier was starting to go bad. The regulator was still working properly ttbomk. I think one of the diodes may have actually been shorting, causing a drain on the battery.

If you DO smell gasoline at the fuel pressure regulator....then it needs to be replaced.
However.....it can be tough to tell if you really smelled fuel at that point or not.
It WOULD explain a lot if it is leaking....but this would be the first time that I have seen it mentioned (not that it cannot or does not happen).

Instead of "anti-sieze", perhaps better wording would be "thread-loc". It was the original manufacturer's installation. You know, the bolts that come with the blue stuff on the threads.

If the near-stalling coincides precisely with the radiator cooling fans switching off, then I think you may have a problem with back-emf. Back-emf (electromotive force) is the phenomenon commonly known as a voltage spike, which occurs when the current to an inductive load is switched off. Even with a supply voltage of only 12V, this spike can easily reach hundreds, even thousands, of volts.

The spike is negative-going, meaning that it will have the opposite polarity to the supply voltage, and its duration will be very brief - typically just a few milliseconds. Because of its short duration you wouldn't see it on a multimeter, aside from maybe a momentary fluctuation in the meter reading, but it's observable on an oscilloscope, and with a digital storage 'scope it's possible to capture the waveform and analyse it at one's leisure.

There is a path from the positive terminals of the fans, through fuse 'W' (10A, engine compartment fuse box) and into the PCM on pin 4 (Fan Monitor Input), so a spike could be reaching the PCM via that route.

There's also a path from the coils of three relays within the CCRM - the EDF, HEDF1 and HEDF2 relays - into the PCM on pin 17 (High Fan Control), so a spike could be reaching the PCM via that route also.

The back-emf protection for the three (inductive) relay coils within the CCRM is clear to see - they're protected by a single reverse-biased diode, so if that has failed then for sure a spike would reach the PCM.

The back-emf protection within the fans isn't shown. They will likely be brushless DC motors, having a series of (inductive) coils fed via a solid-state current-switching circuit. Each coil will be protected locally by a reverse-biased diode, but in the event of a failure of one of those diodes, I don't know what the chances are of the resulting spike escaping from the motor. The circuitry will be relatively complex - solid-state current switching, current amplifiers etc., and I don't know if a spike could get past them without destroying them in the process.

Faced with this situation, I'd probably just open up the CCRM and check out the diode. It won't have failed short-circuit (if it had, it would interfere with relay operation) but it could have failed open-circuit or the soldering could be dry-jointed (cold joint). PCB track damage would be a less likely possibility too.

If the CCRM had awkward access or looked like it would be a problem to open, then I'd temporarily fit a reverse-biased diode externally.

If the vehicle still nearly stalled when the cooling fans switched off, then I'd remove that temporary diode from the CCRM and temporarily fit a reverse-biased diode across the fan motors - they're wired in parallel, so a single diode would protect against back-emf from either, or from both.

It's possible that you don't have a problem with spikes at fan switch-off, but if the voltage feed into the fans, and the ground path leading from the fans are both good, then that's what I would be looking at next.

I won't go into detail on hooking up the diodes because this post is long enough already, but if you want to proceed with that at any time then let me know and I'll explain more fully. The diodes required would be cheap, and readily-available types.

If you DO smell gasoline at the fuel pressure regulator....then it needs to be replaced.
However.....it can be tough to tell if you really smelled fuel at that point or not.
It WOULD explain a lot if it is leaking....but this would be the first time that I have seen it mentioned (not that it cannot or does not happen).

Well what I did was pull the vac line from the intake manifold and put it directly under my nose while the engine was running while I was plugging the intake manifold with my finger. I smelled it only once and it was definitely gasoline smell, but it was faint and only there for maybe 1-2 seconds. Also, engine wasn't at full temp yet either.

I was just thinking about it though - there's a diagram of the fpr in the cd-rom I have and its very clear that fuel and vac are supposed to be separate so I shouldn't have even smelled a hint of fuel however I really don't see how thats possible that the seal would be 100%. It seems like as the diaphragm slides up and down you would smell "some" small margin of fuel here, but so far no one else has said that and I'm probably looking too far into this. Its probably just bad and may have gone bad when the engine overheated above the "H" mark in October. So it would be rare in NORMAL situations for it to go bad, but in an abnormal situation where the engine got that hot it may have melted the rubber internals (assuming the diaphragm is rubber).

Searcherr, I don't think I can add much more than what others have brought up. No battery/alt light come one any? <<..rest truncated..>>

NO battery or alt light at all.

I still plan (once exhaust setup is back together; now hopefully Monday) to do the voltage tests Selectron recommends. Thanks for the thoughts about the alternator. I honestly don't know how the brushes could still be in good condition after 158k miles. Do these brushes actually rub on something that turns? I seem to recall the words "rotor" or "stator"????

Instead of "anti-sieze", perhaps better wording would be "thread-loc". It was the original manufacturer's installation. You know, the bolts that come with the blue stuff on the threads.

That makes more sense.... still like you observed it reduces current flow.

What have you done relating to the engine temp sensor?

If the near-stalling coincides precisely with the radiator cooling fans switching off, then I think you may have a problem with back-emf. Back-emf (electromotive force) is the phenomenon commonly known as a voltage spike, which occurs when the current to an inductive load is switched off. Even with a supply voltage of only 12V, this spike can easily reach hundreds, even thousands, of volts. ......

Selectron - WOW. You make me feel good about how much I write. :) I really appreciate this in depth analysis because YES it is PRECISELY when the low-speed cooling fan(s) turn(s) OFF EVERY SINGLE TIME. It does not do this at all when cold or warming up to operating temp - ONLY AT OPERATING temp after low speed fan(s) turn(s) OFF.

I like your diode idea, but I'm just not gonna drive the vehicle till I've figured this out. I may be interested in doing the diode later though if I run into delay getting the parts I need.

Lets assume for the moment the problem IS a back-emf/voltage spike caused from the fans turning off. If I just replaced the CCRM and fuse W (10A) would that likely take care of the problem and in addition that the back-emf could be coming from the fan motor(s) itself/themselves which may mean replacing the motor assembly?

I think once I am able to test for the voltage spike I'll use alligator clamps and keep my eyes peeled on the multimeter for the voltage.

Is a 10A fuse either BAD or GOOD or can it be "going bad"?

However, would this back-emf explain 9 - 11 MPG? It doesn't seem like it would huh? This is what makes me still concerned about the FPR and of course again the CCRM since the fuel pump relay is in there in addition to the fan relay.

If I look at the old CCRM what am I really looking for to know its relays went bad? Whats a PCB? Whats dry jointing or cold joint? What do these things look like in non-electrical terms? hehe

Lastly, I know this is going to sound "SUPER-NERD", but I've always wanted an oscilloscope. lol - There've been several situations on my car where I could've used it for testing against spec waveform data in the manual.

What have you done relating to the engine temp sensor?

If thats the same as the engine coolant temperature sensor I've cleaned its connectors and verified resistance at its ground wire. I've done nothing else with it yet.

I will just throw this out there. Is there a way for you to have your PCM checked besides $100 at the dealer? I accidentally cooked the PCM on my Taurus, 3.8L (same as Winnie) and it ran like crap, nearly stalling, running rich enough to spit black out the exhaust. The car will also run this way when putting in a new PCM while it's relearning how to run the engine, as I had done. Eventually it will smooth out. Searcherr and others, maybe yours is not "learning" and retaining what it experiences so it continues to use the same original crappy parameters. The PCM on mine took 5 to 10 minutes maybe to show improvement, high idle helped a lot, driving it for 15 minutes did a lot to smooth it out. I'd expect the same for your's to relearn. Another thought regarding this PCM business that I learned was the compatability of the PCM and engine is supposedly very critical when I was trying to find a used replacement for mine. Could your engine and PCM (EEC, ECU, ECM, ECA, engine computer, etc.) not be properly matched? At this point, confirming compatability wouldn't be hard to check and maybe worthwhile. Unfortunately, you may need to get the exact PCM number off the Ford part decale which was only visible with it pulled out for mine, but maybe going by VIN would avoid that issue. A bad pcm may explain the things that aren't working out like they should. Could your first reman engine screwed up your pcm if not the right match? Can the shop that did your swap read/check your pcm as part of the same job?

The shop replaced the PCM prior to the engine overheat/failure in October with a brand new Ford OEM. The very next day after the PCM was replaced the MAS blew its element wire on my way out of there.

I trust that they put in the right PCM and I was not having bad MPG with the old engine using the new PCM prior to its failure. Thinking back this issue always existed prior to new engine install. It was just much much less noticeable and I always attributed it to "old engine" and it didn't try to stall the vehicle like it does now and I never noticed back then that it was only when the low speed fans turned OFF. Back then I didn't know my dropping resistor was corroding and falling apart either and lots of other old components that had "worn together" were in play in a system that aged with a balance over time.

Now I have a hodge podge mix of old and new components with very few old ones left. My guess is the new stuff is much more sensitive to whatever was causing this issue when it was all old stuff. After replacing the dropping resistor and recrimping the grounds at the battery it makes sense to me now that this problem got worse cause the electrical is now better grounded for transmitting current during the theorized voltage spike after the fans turn off.

If I'm not careful I'll end up blowing my new PCM unless this really is related to the fuel system and not electrical...... could be both and 2 separate (though contributing to the symptoms) problems.

FYI - Cold testing of ECT and IAT resistance:

ECT: 25.35
IAT: 24.96-25.26

Both tests done at 87 to 86 F

I found some spec data and that appears to be accurate for both.

I can't do a hot test till I can run the van for an extended period, but I doubt I will find either sensor is bad.

Voltage tests with zero load:

1. Cold battery after sitting for 24 hours - 12.37v - It actually was 24 hours with the cables connected before the next 2 days it was sitting with the neg cable pulled off.

2. Idle voltage - 14.68v

3. 2000 rpms rev voltage - 14.70v

4. Voltage spike test - Can't do yet. Taking exhaust pipe in tomorrow.

Is that too high or just right for an alternator?

Those sound like ideal voltages from your charging system. The alternator brushes do actually contact and ride on the commutator part of the armature, which is what is spun past the stationary field coils of the alternator. So, yes the brushes wear down, and if you have an externally mounted voltage regulator, you can replace the brushes, if they are short, as an entire assembly with the volt reg, or just the brushes alone. Either way, you will most likely need to pull the alt to do that, and I would go ahead and have it bench tested so your rectifier, diodes, reg and output can be checked and help you to decide what level orf repair to do.

What I meant on the PCM issue is to be sure that the new engine is a match to your old PCM.

I may have to leave your theory to Selectron on the idea of better conductivity and grounding with voltage spikes resulting in greater sensitivity and worse results. I would be more in favor of a better outcome than worse with the said improvements, at the very least more accurate sensor data going to and from the PCM. Certainly poor conductivity to and from the pcm will create biased data and feedback. Tracing and understanding voltage spikes and eliminating them through design is out of my league and I would have to defer to Selectron on that. Voltage spiking from the fans turning off makes me wonder about the control relay involved drawing excess current due to bad contacts or weak pull in coil in the ccrm.

I was going to suggest doing a vacuum hold test on your fuel pump regulator. No leak down, no internal fuel leak.

I was thinking (kinda been obsessing over this crap) about it again and there are many symptoms that to me say the CCRM is toast:

1. My A/C clutch did switch on and off quite often prior to breaking open the system (freon recharge at new engine install etc..) and still does so fairly fast in my opinion now. CCRM controls this too - (As Wiswind has pointed out several times - lol).

2. The cooling fan turning OFF causes almost stall condition every single time and this is directly controlled by and routed through the CCRM (As Wiswind has pointed out several times - double lol) while all known grounds check out.

3. Fuel pump is directly controlled by the CCRM from the PCM (As Wiswind has pointed out several times - triple lol). To me, this could have a direct impact on fuel economy.

4. Maybe i'm wrong on this one, but since I have improved the ground points and system continuity it makes sense to me that this problem seems worse now because the source of the prob is getting through the electricals easier.

I have been studying the electrical diagrams and ground locations all AM hours of the night from the cd-rom I have as well as looking up fpr info and fuel test gauges to buy. I really have tested all "related" grounds, but 1 which is located underneath the battery. There really aren't as many grounds on the vehicle as I thought there may be, but there are many things routing into the grounds that are there and thankfully this seems to have been done in an organized manner.

So without further adue I'm going to take apart the battery area today, test that ground under there and pull the CCRM and have a look at it. I really don't know what I'm gonna see, but I was wondering if I could just clean the CCRM with electronic parts cleaner??? ... and reinstall it after drying and see what it does???

I know the new one is better, but its also $94. I wonder if I could just get one from a junk yard from a 2003 Windstar. It should be the newer one and maybe cheaper and still good to go cause its the revised version.

Thanks again for everyone helping and keeping up. Hoping to hear back from Selectron on my questions to him soon.

2003 does NOT have a CCRM.....they moved the relays into the power distribution box.
You need to use the CCRM that is listed for your vehicle and year.
As far as "Junk yard", you might try ebay.....but....again make SURE that it is the correct one for your year, vehicle, and engine.

I do not know that you can clean the CCRM......relays inside a metal box.
I would not take the box apart.....as it would likely cause more damage than help.

When you said something about a wire at the MAF "blew off".....do you mean that it was burned/charred?.....if so....this could have damaged the MAF and / or the PCM.......

Lets assume for the moment the problem IS a back-emf/voltage spike caused from the fans turning off. If I just replaced the CCRM and fuse W (10A) would that likely take care of the problem and in addition that the back-emf could be coming from the fan motor(s) itself/themselves which may mean replacing the motor assembly?

Yep, that's about right but the problem is that if you do have a spike at switch-off then there are two possible and quite separate sources and you wouldn't know which one was causing it, so you wouldn't know which one to replace. In the absence of a 'scope the only relatively easy way to determine the source would be by temporarily adding spike suppression to each in turn, in the form of a reverse-biased diode, and finding it by a process of elimination. That's not a difficult task, but if you're unaccustomed to working at component level then I probably wouldn't recommend it because there's the possibility of hooking things up incorrectly, and compounding your existing problems.

Similarly with the CCRM - I wouldn't recommend even attempting to open it if you're not experienced at that level because the chances of it going smoothly first time would be pretty slim.

Fuse W won't be implicated in any of this, and you can assume that it's healthy, because it feeds 12V back into pin 4 of the PCM (Fan Monitor Input) to inform the PCM that the fans have been successfully powered up, and if that signal wasn't getting through then I reckon it would be giving you an error code, so you can pretty much forget about that particular fuse. I only mentioned it because if a spike is coming off of the fans at switch-off then it would travel to the PCM via that fuse, but aside from that it's of little significance.

As for looking for a spike with a multimeter, as I said, I doubt that you'd see much except maybe a momentary fluctuation in the meter reading, and that's because it's such a brief event - just a few milliseconds and then it's gone. If your meter has a peak-hold or max-hold feature then it would be worth switching that on in the hope that it might just record it. Also, I'd set the meter to its highest DC voltage range, which is probably 1,000V, because if a spike exists then it would exceed the limits of the lower voltage ranges.

Your battery voltages look ok. The voltage after sitting overnight is low, so the battery is obviously a little discharged but that's not a cause for concern, because it's to be expected if the vehicle isn't being driven daily. The voltage at idle and above idle are both within spec for your vehicle (14.1 to 14.7V) so that's fine too. It's a long way away from being a comprehensive test, but I just wanted to rule out the possibility that the electrical system was running way above or below its normal voltage range.

That's an interesting point about compatibility between the PCM and the engine, and it would be worth checking out, but I notice you said that the near-stalling issue already existed with the original engine so that might suggest that that particular problem is not a PCM compatibility issue.

Regarding the CCRM - if you're not accustomed to working at component level then it's safer to treat it as a sealed unit and confine any testing to the exterior connections. You could check for voltage drop across the various relays' switched contacts via the unit's exterior connections, but that still wouldn't necessarily be a conclusive indication that the unit is good.

You've mentioned the A/C a couple of times but it isn't clear whether you've done this test:

With the engine running but while it's still cold, if you switch on the A/C then that will cause the cooling fans to come on at low speed. If you allow it to run for a couple of minutes to let things settle down and then switch the A/C off, does the engine still nearly stall?

That would seem to be an easy way to eliminate the ECT sensor and the associated portion of the PCM circuit which triggers the fans to switch on and off.

If it still stalls then that would suggest that the ECT sensor circuit is not the cause, but if it did not stall then that would suggest that the ECT circuit requires further investigation, and it would also tell you that you don't have a problem with spikes at fan switch-off.

2003 does NOT have a CCRM.....they moved the relays into the power distribution box.
You need to use the CCRM that is listed for your vehicle and year.
As far as "Junk yard", you might try ebay.....but....again make SURE that it is the correct one for your year, vehicle, and engine.

I do not know that you can clean the CCRM......relays inside a metal box.
I would not take the box apart.....as it would likely cause more damage than help.

When you said something about a wire at the MAF "blew off".....do you mean that it was burned/charred?.....if so....this could have damaged the MAF and / or the PCM.......

Thats odd then cause the CCRM is listed like this in the parts web sites:
Electrical - Powertrain control - Ecm relay
Ecm relay, windstar 1995 - 2003

Same part number for all years as it seems at least from Bob Utter Ford and parts.com.

The MAS element wire (looking in the element air flow tube itself) did not burn or char... it was simply POPPED OFF of its solder. It could've been debris I guess, but its hard to say and quite coincidental that this happened the very day AFTER a brand new OEM PCM was put in. I also have heard lots of people say that K&N oil charged filters cause damage to MAS' so it could've been that too, but overall I'm leaning more at this point to something electrical.

I took the exhaust pipe in this afternoon to get fixed/modified since Magnaflow is dragging their ass. Tomorrow I should be able to fire her up for further tests and for the first time see how the new exhaust note sounds.

I'm going outside right now to deal with the CCRM and new grounds I found. The one that is connected to a connector right off the battery from the connector to the battery is 0.0ohm... but when I try to OHm the other end of the connector-to-van-body I get 1.1xxx ohms. I hadn't checked that side of the connector before I don't think so I'll be exploring that too today.

Selectron - I'm very accustomed to doing detailed work in any area and probably especially component level. I've taked apart IAC's before, electrical ohm and voltage tested nearly every sensor in my whole engine bay in my other car. I didn't like spending all that time on it, but I am more than capable. I've also rebuilt various components too.

I just don't like dealing with "compressed parts" if you will. IE: If taking apart the CCRM means there will be a bunch of springs or compressed metal dealy wheelys that'll pop out at me when I open it that I have to be extremely careful to put back together or else it won't switch right then forget it. If they are all in there loosely or even just firmly so then lets go for it.

The 1995 engine/tranny setup in my Windstar is a 1 year setup. All succeeding years were different especially noting the IMRC. I doubt seriously that I would've got the wrong PCM. I won't discard this possibility, but it will go to the bottom of the list.

I'm heading outside to go take this stuff apart and do a few ground tests. I'll have pics later of the CCRM and be ready to look into it with ya Selectron so POST BACK BIZNATCH ! lol :) Thanks.

You've mentioned the A/C a couple of times but it isn't clear whether you've done this test:

With the engine running but while it's still cold, if you switch on the A/C then that will cause the cooling fans to come on at low speed. If you allow it to run for a couple of minutes to let things settle down and then switch the A/C off, does the engine still nearly stall?



I'm 90% sure it does try to stall using that test method. I have used it in the past because I didn't want to wait for warm-up. I haven't done it in about a week or more and would have to try again tomorrow when I get the exhaust pipe back. I just can't remember 100% though. I'm 90% sure it does try to stall though. Too many things to keep track of here.

Selectron - I have the CCRM off and in my room. Can we do anything with it or are all your tests only going to work if we have the van running?

1. The 3rd ground off the battery that goes to a connector: This ground looks like it goes straight through to the CCRM. I tested the CCRM connector harness unplugged for resistance/cont and got the 0.00 (this is a black wire with a white stripe). I can only surmise that the CCRM module must ground itself to the frame through that tiny ass bolt that holds it on or else I don't know where else its grounded to. In any case from the battery to the connector tip for that special black/white stripe wire the continuity is good, however I am not sure what I'm supposed to see on the multimeter if I put the lead to this connector and to the body when connected to the CCRM. I'd assume I'm supposed to see 0.00 as well, but I believe when I did that I got 1.125. However if the CCRM isn't active perhaps the continuity isn't there for a ground to exist? Me confusing myself. Ya'll think the CCRM would benefit from an additional ground added to one of the metal tabs?

****2. This next thing may be the most interesting discovery I've found yet and for once I know immediately it was clearly WRONG and I have no idea how long it was like this. Could've been for the entire life of the van. In the power relay box while tracing that "connector" ground that comes off the battery I thought it might go to the fuse/relay box. While inspecting the fuses/relays I found that the blue 15 AMP fuse which the owner's manual says is for the EEC (Electronic Engine Control) Module WAS NOT PLUGGED IN!!!!!!!! Whoever was in there before me pushed it in....but instead of it going in between its connector slot it went slanted onto the SIDE of the connector. It was still touching the metal slot on the side, but the tips of the fuse were corroded with black gunk about 60% and it was not in there NEARLY as firm as it is when put properly in its slot. I of course cleaned it up a lil bit and put it in properly. SERIOUSLY I WONDER IF THIS HAS BEEN MY ENTIRE PROBLEM??????
EDIT: Just looked in the CD-ROM - EEC = PCM. This may explain why my PCM fried before.

3. F48F-12B577-BA is my original factory CCRM part number. This part number does not come up anywhere. The prefix and ending letters are different and center number is all that resembles with the new number. In any case I know the right part number to order thanks to ya'll: F78Z-12B577-AB

EDIT: 4. I also noticed a DIODE in the fuse box with a symbol on it: Triangle pointing left at center of a vertical line with a horizontal line left of it at center as well. Wonder if this has to do with voltage spike protection?
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/symbols/diode.gif There... it looked like that but pointing the opposite direction.

Regarding the CCRM grounding - the case is grounded via pin 25, from where a black wire runs to ground point G106. That should be sufficient, but if the mounting tabs have electrical continuity to the case then adding a separate ground wire from one of the tabs to chassis wouldn't do any harm.

That was the ground specifically for the case, but the PCM also has what are shown as 'Power Grounds', presumably coming off the PCB (printed circuit board) and they are from pins 24, 51, 76, 77, 103, and they all connect to ground point G106, so it's important that G106 has a clean, secure connection to the chassis.

The blue 15A fuse - I assume that's in the engine compartment fuse box, in which case it's likely to be fuse R, which feeds pin 55 of the PCM. That's the KAPWR (Keep Alive Power) terminal, which needs a permanent 12V in order to retain system settings in an area of the PCM memory. Even if it looked in bad condition, I think it must have still had good continuity because there are error codes associated with that, so it would have been giving you codes if the 12V was missing or low. It would be great if that does turn out to be the culprit, but for now at least, I doubt it.

The diode you mentioned isn't shown on my diagrams, but if that's in the engine compartment fuse panel then it's likely to be a reverse-polarity protection diode, to protect the more expensive and sensitive electronic modules (PCM, ignition modules, etc.) in the event that the battery is hooked up with the wrong polarity, so I doubt that it will prove to be of any significance.

The CCRM doesn't contain any moving parts - no springs or valves or such - it's just a module containing electronic components - relays, diodes, a few ICs and possibly a few resistors etc., mounted on a printed circuit board, so that's what I meant when I referred to 'component-level' - I was meaning electronic components.

If you intend to open it, then the first thing would be to give it a thorough visual inspection, looking for any signs of overheating such as scorch marks on the PCB or the components themselves. Check also for signs of water ingress and corrosion, and track damage - hairline cracks, burnt tracks, etc. (the tracks are the strips of copper which link the components) and also check the soldering for dry joints. A good joint will be smooth, shiny and silver-coloured, whilst a dry joint will be a dull grey colour and it will often have tiny, visible cracks in the solder surface. A magnifying glass helps a lot in spotting those.

The only thing that I would be interested in testing would be the protection diode for the cooling fan relays. That's in parallel with the coil of the EDF relay, and that relay can be identified by its switched contacts, which receive a 12V feed via pins 6 and 7 (brown/orange) with the output from the switched contacts being on pins 3 and 4 (red/orange). (Edit: I just remembered there's a misprint on my diagram - pin 4 is shown twice with two different functions so that may not actually be pin 4 - you'll still be able to identify the relay from the connections to pins 3, 6 and 7 though). So, having identified the relay, follow the copper PCB tracks from the coil to the diode. Because the diode is in parallel with the coil, an in-circuit test wouldn't be conclusive, so one leg of the diode would ideally need to be removed from circuit in order to test it. The meter would be set to the Diode Test range, and with the red probe connected to anode, black probe to cathode (i.e. diode forward-biased) it should indicate a voltage drop of around 0.6V (600mV). Then with the meter probes reversed (i.e. diode reverse biased) it should indicate an open-circuit. If that's what you get then the diode is healthy. Anything else would indicate a fault condition.

If it's a single or double-sided PCB then it's reasonably straightforward, but with a multi-layered PCB, to avoid the hassle of desoldering, I sometimes just snip a component at the angle of the shoulder, test it, and then solder it back again at the shoulder, with slim aluminium heat shunt tweezers in place between shoulder and body. That's a fairly common practice and safe enough if you're quick about the soldering, and use a heat shunt.

Diode symbol:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Escort/diode-symbol.png

Component marking:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Escort/diode-marking.png

I'm taking the day off to do some long-overdue wood carving which has been on my to-do list since Christmas, but I'll be around if you have any questions.

Where is G106? I searched my CD-ROM and only found up to G104 in the G100's. Also for my CCRM there is no pin 25. It only goes up to 24. Were you talking about on the PCM?

I thought little pieces of metal moved in relays to open and close circuits?

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-ConnectorDescription.jpg

I reread your post 3 times. 1st time I was completely lost. 2nd time I was sorta getting it. 3rd time .... ok I think I understand your electric-man talk. :) I've pulled my ECU/ECM from my car before and had to inspect it so I know what to look for as far as a bad board and your descriptions helped too.

I have a soldering gun that came with some solder. I'm not sure what a "slim aluminium heat shunt tweezers" is, but I guess they'll probably have that at radioshack. I hate hate hate hate going to that place. I guess that tweezers resists solder so that you won't solder the tweezers with the circuit. lol - At least thats what I'd think it is.

If the CCRM looks good and tests good if I take it apart..... can I use RTV to seal it??? or does the CCRM need ventilation?

Oops, yep, the case grounding via pin 25 refers to the PCM, not CCRM. I haven't seen grounding details for the CCRM, but if there's electrical continuity from the mounting tab to the case then it'll be ok to add a separate ground wire. According to the diagram you've posted, the CCRM is grounded via pin 15, so it would be worth tracing that and ensuring that it's clean and secure at whichever ground point it leads to. The location of the ground points aren't shown on my diagram so I don't know where G106 is located.

Relays do indeed contain a spring-loaded moving contact, but PCB-mounted relays would typically be sealed units so that isn't something that one would normally disassemble.

The heatshunt tweezers look like this (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?menu=1611&Mname=Soldering&criteria=tweezers), but I don't see them listed on the Radio Shack site, and yep, they're made from aluminium so they don't accidentally get soldered into circuit too. With a little ingenuity you could make something similar with a couple of offcuts of aluminium and a rubber band or similar to make them self-clamping, which would serve just fine for occasional use.

Regarding sealing the unit - if you have to break a seal to open it then I'd reseal it, using a silicone-based sealant.

I present to you all.... the insides of the mighty CCRM:

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Windstar-1995-0001-smaller.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Insides-Windstar-1995-0003-smaller.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Insides-Windstar-1995-0004-smaller.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Insides-Windstar-1995-0006-smaller.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Insides-Windstar-1995-0007-smaller.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Insides-Windstar-1995-0008-smaller.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Insides-Windstar-1995-0009-smaller.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/CCRM-Insides-Windstar-1995-0011-smaller.JPG

Aside from the expected debris, dirt, visiting MOSQUITO who met his match with electricity... I found the CCRM to look much better than I thought it would.

The ONLY thing I saw questionable visibly was on the bottom of the board edge at the diodes where it looks like the whole edge of the board has bubbled. It may be along a trace on the board. I would think this was probably due to the major overheating in October. I don't like the CCRM's proximity to the upper radiator hose. In any case I'm gonna clean it and the connectors up good later today, ensure the ground/cont is good from CCRM to PCM, reinstall it, put the exhaust back together finally, and see what happens after I get the van to operating temp. I want to find out if that 15A fuse was an issue before I go clipping diodes on the CCRM.

Selectron & anyone else - Interested in your opinion(s) of the bubbling or if this is just normal board construction.

The bubbling effect on the tracks isn't uncommon, and it's mostly not a cause for concern. The old Sinclair computer circuit boards always had it, and just about every track inside a GEC TV would always be bubbled, straight out of the factory. If you rub the edge of your fingernail over it though you'll probably find that it's good and solid underneath. That can be confirmed by a few quick continuity checks from one end of a track to the other. If overheating had caused it then the green protective coating would be discoloured and broken, but from what I can see, it looks ok.

One thing which did catch my eye was the ceramic resistor on the edge of the board - that's the big white chunky-looking thing. Ceramic resistors are used when a considerable wattage is to be dissipated, and therefore they run hot, and that frequently leads to them drifting in value over time so it would be worth giving it a quick check. The resistance value is marked on the inner face - the side which is facing the relay - I can see the markings but can't read them.

The markings are interpreted like so:

0.27 ohms would be marked 0R27
2.7 ohms would be marked 2R7
27 ohms would be marked 27R
270 ohms would be marked 270R
2.7 kilohms would be marked 2K7
27 kilohms would be marked 27K
270 kilohms would be marked 270K
2.7 megohms would be marked 2M7

... so you're looking for a marking resembling one of those.

Check the resistance one way and then reverse the leads and check again. Because it's in-circuit, it's unlikely you will read the exact value because there may be components in parallel with it, but for an in-circuit check, the value should be the marked value or less - never higher. If the measured value is higher then that indicates that it's faulty.

I'm surprised at how dusty the unit is, so I hope the relays were well-sealed at the manufacturing stage.

Ford kept the fan relays mounted separately from all the other relays in '99, when electrical things were changed around a bit. All relays became plug-in design that year. Two different sizes of relays for fan control were required. The larger one (gray in the photo below) was for "high speed". (I have lost one "high speed" relay in my 230 kmiles.) You can see an alligator clip and conductor lead that I've added. The lead is soldered to the high speed relay coil grounding conductor. During severe summer driving or when towing, the alligator clip is moved to a grounded bolt. This keeps the fan in high speed anytime the ignition key is "on".... hopefully helping the tranny and ac.
.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3306/pict0087hk0.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0087hk0.jpg)
.
Click on thumbnail to enlarge.

It was very hard to see, but here is what is written on it:

CPR 5 - 9 DALE 5w
62 Ω 5% C9423

Connections are at sector R6 on the board.

Resistance is futile. :) Sorry. lol

Resistance is: 64.0 Ω on the nose and flipping the leads (testing at both metal prongs coming out of the ceramic) shows exactly the same thing.

Do dis mean we have brokey CCRM?

Omega symbol & Ohm's law: Ω (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A9) & Ohm's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm_%28unit%29)

Ford kept the fan relays mounted separately from all the other relays in '99, when electrical things were changed around a bit. All relays became plug-in design that year. Two different sizes of relays for fan control were required. The larger one (gray in the photo below) was for "high speed". (I have lost one "high speed" relay in my 230 kmiles.) You can see an alligator clip and conductor lead that I've added. The lead is soldered to the high speed relay coil grounding conductor. During severe summer driving or when towing, the alligator clip is moved to a grounded bolt. This keeps the fan in high speed anytime the ignition key is "on".... hopefully helping the tranny and ac.
.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3306/pict0087hk0.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0087hk0.jpg)
.
Click on thumbnail to enlarge.

Wwweeerrry enteresting silly wabbit.

I find it rather interesting that for the first time in my life I'm hearing/learning about these "ceramic resistors" and both are problems. The other day I replaced the ceramic dropping resistor for the cooling fans of course. Now I'm betting Selectron will say the ceramic resistor in the CCRM is bad based on his info that resistance shouldn't have been higher than 62. I guess I don't understand enough about electricity though yet to know why just 2 ohms higher (64) would be a problem..... but I await da grand masta electric-guy. TELL US O WISE ONE! ..... lol .... I need sleep. :rofl:

I'm surprised at how dusty the unit is, so I hope the relays were well-sealed at the manufacturing stage.

Yeah Wiswind has recommended the new revision CCRM several times noting that the seals are much improved over the old one.

Resistance is futile. :)
Chuckle, chuckle. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon10.gif I must admit, if I was trying to fix your Windstar I'd have lost my sense of humour long ago.

The resistance value you measured will be ok. Notice the '5%' marking - that's the component tolerance of +/- 5%, so although its nominal value is 62 ohms, its actual value can be from 58.9 to 65.1 ohms. You would need to remove one leg from circuit and measure again to be certain, but chances are that's a healthy resistor and you can forget about it now. Oh yes, and the 5W will be indicating that it's a 5 watt device.

There was a suggestion from Wiswind back on page one, to unplug the fans very temporarily and see if the stumble still happens. I reckon that would be well worth trying.

First, I'd do the test which I suggested on the previous page to eliminate the ECT sensor - switch the A/C on while the engine is still cold, and if it still stumbles when the A/C is switched off then that eliminates the ECT sensor and associated circuit.

Then for the second test, I'd unplug both fans. Pull the plugs directly at the fans but leave everything else intact. The PCM will then still get its feedback signal via fuse W into the PCM, pin 4, so it will think the fans have been successfully activated. Allow the A/C to run briefly and then switch it off. If it still stumbles then the fans will also have been eliminated (don't forget to plug 'em back in!).

Actually, you can do that in a single test - unplug the fans and then, with the engine running but still cold, run the A/C briefly. If it still stumbles at switch-off then you know that neither the ECT sensor nor the fans are responsible. That's a quick and easy test which would narrow things down considerably.

Affirmative Captain. :smooch:

Thanks for the explanation of the markings on the resistor. I was hoping you'd say 64 would be ok. I realized to get a better reading I'd have to disconnect it, but I really don't want to disturb the board more than I already have.

Today's Agenda (lol):

Prior to tests
1. Clean CCRM with electronic parts cleaner and allow to dry completely
2. Reinstall CCRM etc... with temporary seal (DUCK TAPE).
3. To keep engine cold will turn off engine between tests

Test Hit List:
1.a. As had planned (just was waiting for exhaust to be finished): Radiator fans unplugged test (a/c not active) - while cold
1.b. Passenger side fan unplugged; driver fan plugged - while cold
1.c. Driver fan unplugged; Passenger side fan plugged - while cold
2. A/C Turn off test while engine cold (fans of course plugged back in)
3. Test PCM ground wire and cont to CCRM

After Tests
1. Remove CCRM
2. If haven't isolated issue test fans diodes in CCRM - Not sure I'll be able to accomplish this because I cannot trace the path of the fan pins from the connector unless I remove several pieces on the board.
3. Reassemble CCRM and seal it better (unless I need to leave it some air?; debating on putting some filter material at its air openings vs just rtving it shut)
4. Reinstall CCRM etc..
5. May turn efforts to looking at the fuel system if electrical issues aren't found in this series of tests

Testing for today was cancelled due to inclement weather. :) lol .. and cause I woke ma azz up so late.

And so left with not knowing what to do with myself I decided to take a much closer look at the CCRM and clean it up REALLY good.

First of all I think I goofed using the electronic parts cleaner (lets just call it e.p.c.) on the circuit board and associated parts as some sort of invisible plastic film apparently lifted up off of "some" of the board components and some of the board itself. Should I be worried about this? Was this weather protective film?

Secondly - got the board nice and clean and unfortunately felt I had to remove the flaking plastic.

Thirdly and probably most importantly - I spent a great deal of time on the connectors and inspected each one correlating it to the CCRM diagram.

-All pins were corroded to some extent
-Pins 6 & 7 were HEAVILY corroded with some metal decay/erosion and the tips of the pins after cleaning reveal maybe 25-35% loss of metal material just at the ends. These pins are also a different color than the rest now. They are slightly reddish/silvery almost sorta bronze looking, but not quite. Oxidation?
-Pin 18 was pretty heavily corroded as well with no erosion
-Pins 1, 2, 4, & 11 were moderately corroded with no erosion

6 & 7 pins (whaddaya know) from the diagram are for "Reduced BATT (Cooling Fan Control Relay)'s" function.... which is what sports fans? yes.... its what I'm having problems with. I was able to scrape enough off to make them shine again (not just the tips, but where the connector harness slides in and makes contact). Since these particular ones for "low speed fan operation" are so worn out I wonder if the cooling fan dropping resistor behind the headlight being broken eventually causes and then exacerbates the failure of the CCRM?

18 is the fuel pump - more irony? Perhaps not.

1, 2, & 4 were moderately corroded and again apply to the cooling fans

13 - 24 are hardly unimportant, but were just moderately corroded as well

I scraped with wire brushes and picks at every pin to get it all clean and then washed it over in the end with the e.p.c.

Lastly, I would really like to know if me sealing all the openings on the CCRM will be bad (heat dissipation) and if it really needs these air openings as I don't quite understand why (though its covered) its basically left open to the elements.

I've never been a big fan of that parts cleaner stuff, well not for cleaning PCBs anyway. My tried-and-trusted method for PCBs is just to sweep the debris and dust off with a soft-bristled paintbrush - just a regular 1" brush such as you might use for painting a window frame. Provided there hasn't been any spillage on the board (coke, coffee, etc.) then a brush does the job just fine because it can sweep underneath the components and reach into all the little crevices.

The transparent film will be a 'conformal coating' - it's an insulating layer applied during manufacture to provide protection from atmospheric moisture and to inhibit corrosion. The unit will work just fine without it so it's not a cause for concern. If the CCRM ends up going back into service though then in the interests of future reliability it would be a good idea to give it another coating fairly soon - you can buy it in an aerosol can at any good electronic components store - just ask for a can of conformal coating spray. That stuff isn't applied to all PCBs by the way, so it won't be on your TV or DVD player - it's only on the CCRM because it's intended for outdoor use.

It sounds like you've lost some of the plating on the connectors, revealing the base metal underneath. Provided you have clean metal at the contacts it will work ok for now, but reliability would be compromised over the long-term. The base metal probably has a higher contact resistance than the plating, and it won't be as corrosion-resistant. If it's going back into service then I'd be applying something to inhibit corrosion. WD40 might work, but I'd probably use petroleum jelly, or dielectric grease. If the plating has been eaten away by corrosion though, then the base metal might never give a good, reliable contact and it might need to be replaced.

As for sealing the unit, I'd be guided by the way it was originally constructed and restore it to its original state, so if it was open then I'd leave it open. The relay coils will all dissipate some heat, as will the ceramic resistor, and at the opposite side of the board there's a semiconductor bolted onto an aluminium heatsink, so that clearly dissipates significant heat too. If the manufacturers wanted to seal it they could easily have done so, so I assume they left it open to allow some ventilation, and that's the way I'd leave it.

Regarding the corrosion on the connectors - I could see how that would lead to the fans running slow, or failing to run at all, but I can't think of any way it would cause the stumbling at fan switch-off. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong though, so I'll hope that when it's plugged back in, at least some of your symptoms will have cleared.

Thank you for the info on the "conformal coating spray" as I know I will not feel right about putting it back in there without it. I would've never guessed you could buy this stuff.

Dielectric grease is a good idea. Aren't there two types of this and you have to make the right call on which to use? I already planned on RTV sealing the connector to CCRM though too.

Gotcha. Leave it open as the manufacturer made it. Makes sense to me. This is what I was leaning towards, but I just didn't like all the debris in there.

When I was cleaning the connectors/plating I made sure afterwards that all pins and especially pins 6&7 still came together pretty tight rather.

I thought about replacing those pins too, but I have no way of knowing where I'd get new pins of that same type other than from a junked Windstar.

Its really horrible weather today so looks like another stalling of getting this done. I'm glad I taped off the harness and other things when I took the CCRM out.

I agree with the issue of removing the plating on the connectors....although....once they are corroded to the extent you mention....the plating is done for already.

I also agree with the "conformal" coating spray....don't overdo it.....and do NOT get any on any connector pins.

I would stay AWAY from RTV around the connectors.......and as a note....any time you use RTV around electrical / electronic "stuff", make SURE that is is labeled as "Electronic Grade"....
If it is NOT electronic grade, it will cause corrosion.

In all honesty....I would consider a new CCRM as the new replacement has better sealed relays......as FORD upgraded them from the original specification.

The two types of dielectric grease would presumably be non-conducting, and conducting. To be honest it's something I never buy - I just keep a tub of petroleum jelly in the toolbox. That's non-conducting by the way, and if you get dielectric grease then be sure to get the non-conducting type.

Unfortunately, replacing the pins on the CCRM connector just isn't a practical proposition, so if they've deteriorated to a point where they're no longer going to be reliable, then replacing the CCRM is the only realistic option.

Thanks guys.

Ugh.... new CCRM contimplating.

I wasn't gonna RTV anywhere near the pins. I was just gonna plug the harness/connector together, screw the bolt in, and RTV seal the outer edges where the harness/connector meet and possibly where the wires go into the plug too.

If I spray the coating I'll tape over the connector first.

Dielectric grease vs petroleum jelly - Wouldn't the jelly melt and/or liquify under engine bay heat? LOL - I've noticed in the past that just body heat causes it to get slippery. :naughty:

I think I'm going to put the old CCRM back in and see if any problems have been resolved. If it is resolved what I may do is perform the mentioned tests and add a test by putting that 15A fuse back in the wrong way as it was before and see if the problem returns. If not then I'll know for sure .... CCRM.

Another day of 93% humidity and thunderstorms. Nothing new.

Today was a big turnaround for the weather. Awesome clear day and low humidity.

The old CCRM is back in and I did not buy the conformal coating as it would be worthless if my cleaning efforts did absolutely nothing which is exactly what it seems.

I don't know why I was gonna do cold testing besides the A/C switch off thing.

No matter what I do for tests the engine does not try to stall when the van is cold to moderately warm, though in these conditions it does a "quick" hesitate (very quick) when the fans go off... not nearly as bad as when its fully hot... but its definitely sorta like a hiccup and this is only when COLD and after switching off the A/C..... which really just equates to again when the fans turn off. Overall I'd say fan operation works as normal when turning the A/C on and off.


When the A/C is switched on the fans kick on every time. I mention this because when the fans come on does not seem consistent without the A/C on using the temperature gauge as a guide for "when" it should kick on.
I unplugged the fans when the engine was fully hot and let it get up to the mid-range R before plugging them in again. 1st did so with A/C off and then A/C on and then off. There was no "attempt" stall during the fans being unplugged in either of thes tests.


Basically when HOT when the fans turn OFF from turning off the A/C or just on their own without the A/C the van still tries to stall. I had just done it while it was cold and it had that hiccup. Does this mean I've ruled out the fans and the ECT? or do I need to do this test warm?


Something I did notice was how low the RPMs go when I turn the wheel. This of course would be the power steering pump pressure switch (I think). I believe the a couple times it went a lil under 500 RPMs, but after that would hit bottom at 500 consistently. Probably doesn't mean much.On a darker note I bolted up the exhaust today and I'm very unhappy to relay that the flex pipe does not line up right with the rest of the exhaust and the ypipe or the other way around. The receiving muffler side is slightly pointed down and I have no idea why. The magnaflow pipe will not allow the flanges to meet flush as the pipe extends "slanted" beyond the flange welded on it. I have to say I've heard lots of great things about Magnaflow, but this experience has me never wanting to buy from them again. At least the weld adjustment to the pipe finally got the O2 in the right position so that it does not hit the steering rack. I will be bringing the van to the same weld shop tomorrow to finish the damn exhaust once and for all. I'm worried the flex-pipe is bent beyond its tolerance cause I can see light through the tiny holes on the other side. I'm so f'ing aggravated right now. I need this crap to be over.

New CCRM on order from Bob Utter Ford in TX. $94 before tax/ship.

Exhaust - Van at shop to have this resolved. I certainly hope it does not sound NEAR as loud once done properly as it did driving it over there because it almost makes me feel like putting the old Ypipe right back on it. We'll see.

I reckon those tests have eliminated the fans, for two reasons. First is that if the fans had been sending a spike back into the PCM, sufficient to cause it some momentary confusion, then the symptom of near-stalling would happen regardless of engine temperature, and that is not what you are observing. Second - and more conclusively - there is no stumbling whatsoever when you unplug the fans manually. Therefore there is no spike, and so you can consider the fans to have been eliminated.

I'd say a slight question mark still hangs over the ECT sensor, especially if you think it isn't always switching on the fans at the same temperature. At first glance, the fact that the engine stumbles when switching off the A/C, with a cold engine, would seem to rule out the ECT, but before you could be certain I think you'd need to measure its resistance when hot.

As Tripletdaddy pointed out a while ago, in addition to using the ECT sensor to determine when the fans should be switched on and off, the PCM will also make use of it when setting the fuel and air trim, etc. It's possible that although its resistance varies sufficiently to activate the fans, it might be sending an inaccurate indication of the real engine temperature to the PCM. I don't see how that would cause the stumble at switch-off, but to err on the side of caution I'd measure its hot resistance anyway. You already gave the resistance as 25.35 (I assume that's kilohms) at 86ºF, which is just about exactly where it should be according to my chart. If you have a means of measuring the engine temperature then I'd measure the resistance again at a higher temperature to check if the resistance drops to the expected figure, and if so then I'd say that would conclusively eliminate the ECT. If you don't have a temperature probe and you don't want to detach the ECT to test it in boiling water, then you could wait for the thermostat to open and then switch the engine off and check the resistance, using the thermostat rating as a reference point on the chart.

If there's a new CCRM on order then there probably isn't much else to do in the meantime eh, except keep your fingers crossed that it clears up at least some of the symptoms, and hopefully all.

Have you tried disconnecting the ac clutch coil? Its a large coil ... would pack quite a back-emf wallop if not corrected by its diode.

Have you tried disconnecting the ac clutch coil? Its a large coil ... would pack quite a back-emf wallop if not corrected by its diode.

Thanks Selectron. Affirmative. I will teste HOT ECT when I get the van back hopefully today or tomorrow. That exhaust shop is taking forever. ...and yes I am hoping the CCRM resolves everything.

12Ounce - Would the ac clutch coil cause back-emf even if the ac is OFF?

Selectron - Guess I have to go reread your explanation, but I'm confused how unplugging the fans and then NOT seeing the stumble/attempt stall ruled out the fans themselves. I have to run, but I'll reread your explanation in a lil while.

Thanks for hanging with me everyone.

Remember that the ac is engaged during any anti-misting mode. But, "no" ... the clutch would have to be energized to cause a problem ... disconnecting is just an easy to-do check.

Guess I have to go reread your explanation, but I'm confused how unplugging the fans and then NOT seeing the stumble/attempt stall ruled out the fans themselves.
I was responding to this:
I unplugged the fans when the engine was fully hot and let it get up to the mid-range R before plugging them in again. 1st did so with A/C off and then A/C on and then off. There was no "attempt" stall during the fans being unplugged in either of thes tests.
The way I'm reading that, the fans were unplugged while the engine was running. If that's the case and if the spike suppression component(s) in one or both of the fans had failed, thus enabling one or both to generate a spike, then I'd be expecting that spike to jump the air gap to the connector at the instant that it was unplugged. From the connector, it would then have a route via fuse W and into pin 4 of the PCM.

Provided that there's no stumbling at fan switch-off (i.e. A/C switch-off) when the engine is cold, then that in itself is enough to rule out spikes from the fans so I'd completely forget about them and turn your attention elsewhere.

With the appalling fuel consumption and with an engine which is so readily pushed into nearly stalling, I'd have been expecting a code or two - am I right in thinking you're not getting any error codes?

No codes. I wish there was. Been hedging on whether or not to get OBDII connectivity to see how often the O2's are reporting (good ones supposed to be 5-7 times a second), but bad O2's are supposed to report a code..... which again isn't there.

New CCRM arrived today. Van still at exhaust shop. Guy fiddle faddled for the entire week cause I guess I didn't act like it was a big priority. :banghead: They are open tomorrow (Saturday) and I'm gonna get the van one way or another. Provided it doesn't rain I'll be putting in the new CCRM and see what happens.

I'm hoping its the CCRM and that I've latched onto something here with the idea of the cooling fan dropping resistor being bad possibly causing the CCRM to degrade faster than normal.

12Ounce - I guess if the new CCRM doesn't fix it I can try unplugging the coil if I can reach it, but the near-stall problem definitely happens when the A/C isn't even on.

Got the van back finally. Exhaust work was not done right. Had to stay there and guide the guy through it. In the end I have a monster unnecessary tailpipe sticking out from the Borla cat-back kit. All of the work I wanted done was done from the flex-pipe back though the 1st muffler/resonator nearly touches the bottom of the van. I'm going to have to experiment with it with someone shifting the gears to make sure it is or isn't.

The worst part of this though is that it appears that the Ypipe is leaking at both manifold junctions which I guess is my fault for thinking they'd seal metal-on-metal due to the way they are designed. Until these seals are fixed I can't really tell if metal is hitting metal with the rest of the exhaust setup. Guy at shop told me to use some exhaust puddy stuff to seal up the Ypipe/manifold ends. They didn't charge me anything cause of how long it was there for something so simple, but I gave the guy a 10 spot anyway. The leaks show themselves pretty violently by shaking the van at a certain low RPM range. Its not nearly as pleasant to drive as it was before. If this sealant crap doesn't fix it I'm done and I will be putting the OEM pipe back on.

CCRM will go in later today when its cooler and when I'm less furious that this debacle is not yet near finished. I think this time just for variety I'm gonna get drunk before I start working on it.

ECT hot around 209-211F resistance was 2.315 - Is that right?

During low speed fan operation alternator voltage was 13.99 - 14.03 and it jumped back up above 14.1 after the fans cut off. If there was a voltage spike as I was watching continously on the multimeter it did not show as the fans cut off and the engine tried to stall again.

YEAP thats right..... after replacing the CCRM with the new one the van still tries to stall after the cooling fans cut off. There's $100 wasted now as the old one was working fine. Eventually I'll get the conformal coating and spray it down and keep it for a spare.

I am about the bring the van back to the shop. At this point I have no clue what it could be, but I am thinking along the lines of fuel problems or the fans themselves.

That's not good news eh, but with the original CCRM connector contacts eroded down to the base metal, its reliability was always going to be questionable and sooner or later - probably sooner - I think you'd have ended up having to replace it.

Assuming that be a resistance value in kilohms then that's just about where it should be at that temperature, so I'd say the ECT sensor is now completely eliminated.

Voltage at around 14.0 rising to 14.1 at fan switch-off seems perfectly reasonable too. You'd see a similar slight rise if you ran the blower motor and then switched it off, or the rear window heater element, headlights, etc. - that's quite normal.

You can eliminate the fans completely by briefly running the A/C with the fans disconnected, as suggested a couple of pages back. Just in case it wasn't clear exactly what was required, I'd suggest this sequence:

1. Unplug fans, directly at fan connectors, while engine is off.
2. Start engine and allow it to settle to a steady idle.
3. Switch A/C on and allow it run briefly - say up to a minute, so it also has time enough to settle down.
4. Switch A/C off.

If it still stumbles then the fans can't possibly be implicated, because they aren't even in-circuit.

Have you tried running some other fairly heavy electrical loads, such as those I just mentioned - headlamps etc., to see if it also stumbles when they are switched off?

Van at "trusted" shop with printed instructions.

Fix almost stall issue.
Fix bad mpg.
Fix exhaust.
Fix leaking freon at compressor.

I hope they go the distance this time as last time right after the engine install they just said to drive it a while and see what it does. It probably wasn't good for employee morale either that the same vehicle was there for as long as it was. lol

EDIT: I did do your suggested test in that order and the engine DID NOT stall. I thought I said that in the last page, but maybe I was confusing. The only difference in how I did the test was in #1 I started the engine and unplugged the fans carefully while it was running before the fans kicked on. Since it DIDN'T stall with the fans unplugged thats why I was confused how I'd ruled them out as it would seem unplugging the fans and then NOT having a stall would mean the fans are the culprit.

I haven't tried running with electrical loads.

My votes' for the fan "system" but with all the "bad voodoo" :D your van has, I can't commit to just the fan motors. It sounds like the anti-spike gizmo Selectron spoke of is not doing it. :screwy: :banghead:

Good luck and my condolences. :D

EDIT: I did do your suggested test in that order and the engine DID NOT stall. I thought I said that in the last page, but maybe I was confusing. The only difference in how I did the test was in #1 I started the engine and unplugged the fans carefully while it was running before the fans kicked on. Since it DIDN'T stall with the fans unplugged thats why I was confused how I'd ruled them out as it would seem unplugging the fans and then NOT having a stall would mean the fans are the culprit.
That wasn't clear to me when I read the other post. As I understand it now, this was the sequence of events:

1. Start engine
2. Unplug fans while engine still cold
3. Switch on A/C and allow it to run briefly
4. Switch A/C off

If that was the sequence and if there was no stumble at A/C switch-off then it's telling you that there's a problem with the fans, and I'd say it's most likely a back-emf problem. Since there are two fans, the next step would be to repeat the test but leave only one of the fans in-circuit, then repeat it again with only the other fan in-circuit. That would tell you which of the two was causing the problem.

If it's for sure that there was no stumble at A/C switch-off when the fans were out-of-circuit then you might want to make the repair shop aware of that, to save them some time.

My votes' for the fan "system" but with all the "bad voodoo" :D your van has, I can't commit to just the fan motors. It sounds like the anti-spike gizmo Selectron spoke of is not doing it. :screwy: :banghead:

Good luck and my condolences. :D

CONDOLENCES ! LOLLLLLLLL :grinyes::lol::runaround::screwy:

That wasn't clear to me when I read the other post. As I understand it now, this was the sequence of events:

1. Start engine
2. Unplug fans while engine still cold
3. Switch on A/C and allow it to run briefly
4. Switch A/C off

If that was the sequence and if there was no stumble at A/C switch-off then it's telling you that there's a problem with the fans, and I'd say it's most likely a back-emf problem. Since there are two fans, the next step would be to repeat the test but leave only one of the fans in-circuit, then repeat it again with only the other fan in-circuit. That would tell you which of the two was causing the problem.

If it's for sure that there was no stumble at A/C switch-off when the fans were out-of-circuit then you might want to make the repair shop aware of that, to save them some time.

FOR sure there's no stumble when the fans are unplugged and I let the temp get up to the "R" on the temp gauge before cutting the van off and having OFFed/ONed the A/C a few times.

I just called the shop to tell them about the fans being unplugged deal. Kinda feel stupid now as I could've easily resolved this myself by replacing the fans which I do believe is fairly simple. I was one step away from diagnosing which fan too, but I didn't do the vice versa unplug test cause I forgot when I went out there.

Crickets.

As suspected I haven't heard a peep from my shop. Gonna call'em tomorrow morning. At least I saw they moved the van from its original parking spot.

They didn't touch it for 4 days cause of backed up work allegedly though I wouldn't doubt it either because in this padoo ass town there's very little in the way of a shop that knows what tha hell they're doing which is why they are my "trusted" shop.

I talked to the head owner there though and he said from what I described that it is likely the fans pulling to many amps, but in any case the focus is the fans and a new set of fans costs a minimum roundabout $160 cause the assembly is all you can get now.

Compressor - Told him I saw drops of freon at the mid-base of the compressor and he said thats probably the front seal. Big poop sports fans. More big $.

I read the FORD TSB about the cooling fans to be replaced as an assembly........It is because the assembly needs to be ballanced.....and if it is not....then it will wobble and ruin the bearings in the motor.
So the whole assembly is the way to go......sadly...more money...but it will be done right (will last).
This will be a first for the fan motors to cause this.....but the symptoms are pointing that way.....since the CCRM did not solve the problem.
Although....I STILL feel better with you having a new CCRM in there.

It is a sad break about the A/C compressor leaking.
Maybe you can get lucky and have it be a seal that they can replace.
If one ends up replacing the compressor......they come with or without the clutch assembly.
I would go for the one with a new clutch assembly.

hello

>Compressor - Told him I saw drops of Freon at the mid-base of the compressor and he said that’s probably the front seal. Big poop sports fans. More big $.

Freon in not a liquid at STP (standard air temperature and pressure). That's why it works as a refrigerant. If there is any liquid at all coming from an A/C compressor, then it's either condensate (the inlet pipe is cold when it's running and water vapor from the air WILL condense on it), or it's oil from inside the A/C system. However, if there is a big enough hole to allow the oil out, then the A/C system would be dead, because all of the refrigerant would have leaked out and the low pressure safety switch would have triggered to protect the compressor.

I read earlier in the thread that you were trying to check the resistance of the ground wire. I'd guess at this point you're past that, but I thought I'd offer my two cents anyway. There's actually a very simply method to get a good idea if the wire has low resistance.

The key is to measure the resistance of the wire without including the ohmmeter leads. An ohmmeter works by forcing a known current down a wire and measuring the voltage drop. Since R=V/I, the resistance can be determined. The problem with measuring the resistance of a wire is that the ohmeter has wires too, so the error due to the resistance of the leads is quite high. The electronics industry makes special ohmmeters for measurement of small resistances that use four wires instead of two. This is called a "Kelvin" measurement. These meters tend to be expensive, but you can get the same effect with your two wire ohmmeter by using it as a voltmeter.

The idea behind a four wire resistance measurement is use one pair of wires to drive the current into the resistance and the other pair to measure the voltage drop between the two points where you want to know the resistance. Since the voltmeter wires don't carry any current in this setup, there is no voltage drop along these wires and the voltage measured is only the voltage along the resistance, in this case the ground wire.

Fortunately, you don't really need to know the actual value of the resistance, just that it's low. The whole problem with a bad ground wire is that it changes the voltage on the computer, so voltage drop on the ground wire is what your really care about. All you need to confirm is that the voltage between the engine block or chassis and the battery negative terminal is low.

Therefore, do the following:

First check for a catastrophic value with a continuity check (i.e. is it < 10 ohms) with an ohmmeter. Once you confirm that the wire isn't broken, then start the car and set the meter to measure voltage. There is no risk of damaging the meter since it is in voltage mode and will not draw any significant current. If you're looking at a ground wire between the battery and the engine block, put the voltmeter positve probe on the engine and the negative probe on the negative terminal of the battery. Since the current should be flowing from the battery negative to the engine block, you should read a negative voltage of a few 100 millivolts if the alternator is charging the battery. A positive voltage would indicate that current is flowing from the engine block to the battery, meaning (since this is the ground current) that the battery is discharging. The more current on the wire and the more resistance between the probe points, the higher the voltage. Just guessing, but I'd say that anything higher than 0.3 volts is suspect.

If there is a problem, the first thing to check is the connections at the battery post. I've had plenty of times when my engine ran rough due to a poorly torque or corroded battery post terminal.

However as far as your real problem goes, I don't have much to offer.

hello
Huh. HELLO! lol

wiswind - Thanks for the TSB info. Its still strange to me and sounds like a way for Ford to make more money, but hey... everything in "balance" right.

wiswind/tomj76 - The liquid I see dripping from the compressor starting at the front seal (I guess) and ending up at the dead center of the compressor before it drops is a YELLOW liquid. I have cleaned it a few times and it comes back. Somehow the a/c still seems to work, but not nearly as quick as it used to and the "cool" is still satisfactory, but not as cold as it used to be prior to the engine debacle.

Could the use of too much oil have caused a leak when they recharged it after the engine was put in? Or since this is a 158k used compressor was it likely to leak anyway on recharge after probably NEVER having been flushed before?

Do shops really replace the front seals of compressors? I'd think they'd want a new compressor to just put in place huh? Can you even get seals for them?

tomj76 - WHOA!!!!:eek7: - I especially dug this part:
However as far as your real problem goes, I don't have much to offer. :rofl::tongue::lol:

To finish up this post I have to say I am f'ing livid. Tomorrow makes 2 weeks and the most done to my van has been it was put on a lift and its still sitting there with NOTHING accomplished as I passed by there yesterday and confirmed that not jack sh!t has been done. I didn't even go to the office... I just walked into the bay. Mind you I will admit everytime I pass by there, their bays are full and their parking lot is full too and these guys REALLY DO know what they are doing...... but this waiting is f'ing killing me.

Apparently they are not eager to work on it because of the jacked up exhaust and what it is going to require to get it corrected. They've told me more than once they'd like me to get a new Ypipe because the one I was sent isn't the right one..... but its the right one as far as Magnaflow is concerned and now its already got alterations to it and really it is the right shape, 3 O2 ports were in correct positions and the 1 that wasn't was only slightly off, the bracket I had to cut was just a tad in the way, but the pipe extending beyond the rear-most flange was retarded (had to cut it off) as it blocked and hit head on the mating flange at the flex-pipe, and finally its been discovered as of LATE that the flaring for both exhaust manifolds is too LONG and wide hence the exhaust leaks there.

I told them why can't they just take it down and apply the exhaust sealant stuff like I had asked and the main guy there disagrees that it will hold up over time and will eventually crack and leak again. I don't know how true that is because the stuff used at the other shop to seal the rear-flange of the Ypipe to the flex-pipe is damn rubbery/hard when it dries up and seems like it would last a lifetime. So this presents another problem either that the flaring on the magnaflow Ypipe has to be corrected, give them another Ypipe, or put the old damn Ypipe back on, but it really pisses me off that I cannot use the high-flow setup which I WANTED and SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE GOT DAMMIT! Why does everything have to be pushed and seeming like some FORCE INSISTS on making things so utterly difficult for me?

I'm bringing the old Ypipe over to them this morning (if I wake up in time) to see if they will be receptive to my idea of putting the OEM flared ends on the new Ypipe OR move the new Cats from the new pipe to the OEM Pipe. I don't know which they will buy into better, but I am not going to wait another damn week fiddling trying to get another Ypipe in the mail especially while Magnaflow owes me at this point anyway.

Since they are tackling the exhaust first the A/C or the near stalling issues have not been addressed at ALL!!!!!!!!! Not to mention the poor MPG issue either...... which I am hoping with the new CCRM, better exhaust, Fixed A/C, and fixed FANS that are near stalling the vehicle that the poor MPG just DISAPPEARS on its own somehow especially since we are LITERALLY..... LITERALLY being ROBBED at the gas pump.

I'm placing orders for the fan assembly and new compressor tonight and having it shipped directly to the shop. Gonna go with the compressor without the clutch because when they did the engine I had'em put on an entirely new clutch assembly down to the shim(s).

Want to hear the REALLY REALLY REALLY worst part of all this and I don't even know if I've written about it in this thread or not so forgive repetition if I did: There is engine oil seeping out from the tranny/engine mating surface; thats the bell housing edge I believe its called. So far I have wiped it twice and hoped that as I drive on the new engine it will stop cause I haven't even put 200 miles on it yet.... but I'm almost scared to even tell the shop this. I would hope they could just retorque the engine/tranny mating bolts, but of course what scares me is that they'd have to pull the tranny to redo the seal. The leak is very very very very subtle. It takes a really long time for it to form a drop and I never see any on the pavement.

RockAuto - just ordered; being sent to shop - 1995 FORD WINDSTAR 3.8L 232cid V6 FI (4)
DORMAN 620102 (620-102) (http://wiki.rockauto.com/1995%20FORD%20WINDSTAR%203.8L%20232cid%20V6%20FI%2 0%284%29_Engine%20Cooling%20Fan%20Assembly_1141614 _10638) Engine Cooling Fan Assembly $110.79
MOTORCRAFT YC2523 (http://wiki.rockauto.com/1995%20FORD%20WINDSTAR%203.8L%20232cid%20V6%20FI%2 0%284%29_A%7CC%20Compressor_1141614_6628) A/C Compressor $217.79

I've bought Dorman before and satisfied with quality and this is a completely NEW fan assembly so I'm up for saving $55 - $60 or more from the OEM or other brand. The compressor however I didn't want to go other than OEM cause it lasted so long.

Can someone tell me the difference in YC2523 and YC189 if you navigate through the parts lookup on www.motorcraft.com? (http://www.motorcraft.com?) Both say "new compressor" and 1 says "air conditioned" (DUH!) and the other says "DEALER OR FACTORY INSTL" - The YC2523 was cheaper for some reason.

I got the van back today after nearly a month.

Total damage was: $1086. YEAP.... again $1086.

Apparently the exhaust caused them all sorts of trouble and he said he didn't want me to think they were mad or something, but that normally he wouldn't have taken the work but because it was me and all that I've been through with them in the past few months he did. He said the person that did the welds before him really caused him all sorts of trouble and the Ypipe was extremely difficult to deal with alone as stainless is really hard for his machine to deal with and he went through about 7 blades trying to get it right.

I am petitioning Magnaflow for labor reimbursement which is $510 of that bill and the cost of the pipe $269. If not I've already told'em I'll file a small claims court suit on next Monday the 23rd. We'll see what the email says in the morning.

Now for what you've all been waiting for. The answer is NO. While the van runs smoothly and seems to me to accelerate much easier/smoother the problem of the "almost stall" still occurs after the NEW RADIATOR FANS turn off. It comes back up to idle speed, and then tries to do it again. These hiccups never amount to an actual "stall", but they do bother me and I thought that it was related to the poor MPG. At least the exhaust leaks are gone and its quieter, though of course not as quiet as stock but its well within tolerance. The leaking compressor was replaced too.

So we have things FIXED and a new set of fans I apparently didn't need, but the "almost stall" thingy is still there and as far as the poor MPG goes I have no idea and neither do they. All they keep repeating to me is that the engine is TIGHT and new and that I need to put some mileage on it. He says that he's had Ford engines all his life and he's known them to do what mine is doing. I know my old engine did it too, but it was "ever so slightly so" and something I always kinda ignored.

I have decided that the best fix for this at this point is to just leave the A/C on as much as possible thereby the fans will always run. I've thought about replacing the alternator, but after all the money I've spent at this point I really would like to see it truly go bad before I do.

Selectron and whoever else - If you have any simple methods of testing (or refer me to a previous post in this thread if you've already written it) that I could try to isolate this issue let me know, but if the methods aren't fairly simple then I'm probably gonna leave this alone for a while till I put at least 500 miles on the thing. After all this crap I still have to change the oil after 500 miles too.

Thinking with bare parts logic the only items remaining that haven't been replaced are:
All sensors besides the: TRS, VSS, DPFE and AFM (MAS or MAF)
Alternator
Coils
Fuel Pump
Fuel Pump Regulator

I think sometime soon I'm gonna order a Fuel Pump adapter so I can test fuel pressure & the FPR just cause I'm curious, but not because I really think that may be the problem. Though there are signs/descriptions from other non-Windstar forums that it could be the FPR. It just baffles me that they wouldn't even want to look into the fuel system, but I should trust their experiences right?

I believe he didn't look into the "near stall" (bad MPG related I believe it to be) thing further because he didn't want to charge me any more money. He spent 6 hours on the exhaust and it was probably more than he said.


I thank you all for your suggestions, help and just for trying.

If you want the radiator cooling fans on all the time, unplug the wire connector to the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor, which is screwed into the top of the thermostat housing or right next to it. The ECT has a two wire connector.

With your electrical problem still there, I would suspect your alt. Have you had it tested, especially load/bench tested? The in car test isn't as meaningful.

Actually I don't know why cause this doesn't make any logical sense man, but I feel as though I have proven this isn't electrical. I just FEEL it. I think instead it is actually due to fuel. I am thinking the FPR is it and it is easy enough for me to replace. The description I read somewhere of people's problems with their vehicle and fpr's is damn near exact to what I'm experiencing on my van. It is in an easy enough spot to replace so I'm gonna get one today and see if that resolves it. If it doesn't then I "truly" wash my hands of this till it causes some other major problem or continues to show horrible mpg even with the new exhaust setup in place.

I'll get the alt tested at a few places today and see what it comes up with, but I did have it tested a while back and it was fine not to mention my own multimeter tests. In any case if it isn't the alt or the the fpr then I wash my hands of this. I could go on and on and on and on and on guessing, but right now there is nothing giving me any sign saying "I'm broke here... fix this"..... damn I sure wish it was that easy.

Oh and here is my thinking on the FPR. I kept asking "What happens in the van when the rad fans cut-off." Well, without looking in a manual it comes to mind that one of the things that MUST be happening is a very subtle change in fuel pressure from a lil higher to a lil lower. If the material inside the FPR melted a little when my engine overheated for so long a period back in October then perhaps subtle fuel pressure changes/management are no longer possible within spec. I DID smell a FAINT HINT of fuel when I pulled the vac line off the FPR and sniffed the FPR spout that one time. I'll do the pressure testing before replacing it and see what up.

Here's the procedure I'll use to the best of my ability: http://www.2carpros.com/car_repair_video/test_fuel_injection_pressure.htm - Good video.

The test of pulling the temperature sensor wire....I would NOT leave it that way....as it will not do nice things for your PCM control......as in mileage.

At this point.....I would do as you said.....drive it for a while and see how the fuel economy is.
Take it out on the freeway for a nice long easy ride......at speed limit with cruise control on.
The PCM is in need to learning the "driveability" information.
From there.....if the fuel economy is OK.....I would change the oil and keep going.
We might get lucky and have this straighten out as the PCM gets the adaptive data......or maybe something simple will surface.
The Fuel economy is going to be a real indicator of how things are going overall.....so let's see how that does....after the driveability/ adaptive....etc data is learned.
With as much money as you have spent.....I hate to see you dump more in if it is not a serious problem......or at "maybe it is this".

Alternator tests good (very good) yet again with high rev and low rev tests performed on a load testing machine.

Obtained the FPR and a fuel pressure testing gauge for the test port. Its nice. Has a release valve.

I swear it drives so smooth, but does not seem to have the upper end power or the lower end power it used to. Seems like the engine is revving more than it would normally for the forward motion it is producing.

Once it cools I'm gonna go do the fuel testing.

Guy at parts shop (willing to hear anyone's thoughts now) asked if I ever replaced the coils. He showed me what a new set should look like. Says that the silicone layer just below the coils should be a caramel looking color and flat with no spacing at the edges and no bubbling. I looked at mine with some semi-dim lighting and its flat and no bubbling, but couldn't tell if it was shrunk from its edges.... otherwise it just looks fine.

How could I tell for sure if I had bad coils though?

Leaving the A/C on all the time down here in tha 99% humidity pressure cooker called Southern, LA is no problem for me and I don't like unplugging the ECT either since I know how much it impacts the fuel injection system.

Was going to do this FPR thing today, but there was a massive severe thunderstorm outbreak and we also think we have a nest of yellow jackets building outside that i have to be careful of. Probably dealing with this tomorrow.

I've read up on a couple tests for the ignition coil. Gonna try those too.

Sorry about the ECT. I wasn't thinking. I thought you have Alldata or like for this, so you should be able to find a resistance test. I think primary is 1 or less ohms and secondary is 6.5 to 11.5 k-ohms. I also like to check every single contact to see if it is grounded when it shouldn't be. Speaking of lousy mileage, has anyone pulled your plugs to see if excess fuel isn't burning? I would have thought lousy mileage would give you rich O2 codes. If the engine is revving too much, is the trans slipping? You'd think there would be some sort of error code for the trans shafts, etc. not matching rpms right.

The ignition coils would be a possible issue if you had rough idle....misfire....etc.
As you said that it is running smoothly......I would not look at the ignition coil.

With the vehicle running smoothly......I would see how it does on a couple tanks of fuel with nice easy driving.......
If the fuel economy is OK....then we are pretty much out of the woods.
We might even get lucky and have the idle drop go away once the driveability information is learned by the PCM.....(Let's take all the luck we can get).
But the real key on how things are will be the fuel economy over the next few tanks of gasoline.......

I did Fuel Pump and FPR tests. Here are the results:
1. Pressure gets up at around 36-38 (repeated key flick about 10+ times)
2. Pressure increases exactly 5 psi from 30 psi each time tested
3.a. Tested at 2500 rpm for 1 full minute: Remains at 30 psi and at times drops to 28 psi on throttle up and stays at 28psi until idle.
3.b. Tested at 3000 rpm for a few (maybe 20) seconds: Remains at 30 psi and at times drops to 28 psi on throttle up and stays at 28psi until idle. At idle fuel pressure remains 30 psi and never goes higher.

NOTE: The only test that got it higher than 30 psi was when the engine was off and Ignition was in ON position.

Questions:
1. Desn't this mean we have a bad fuel pump here? or a clogged fuel filter?
2. What are the odds I have a clogged fuel filter after only 8k miles of a new fuel filter being installed in a 158k mile fuel tanked vehicle?
3. Would ya'll replace the FPR too anyway? or just leave it? I ask because it increases by only the minimum 5psi to 10psi range I saw on the 2carPros video.
I'm asking all this because I'm in a bit of disbelief after all of this that I may have found the true culprit.

I'm going to be furious with my shop tomorrow morning. This is making me wonder now if the 1st NEW engine was ever bad at all. If I don't have fuel pressure correct or just a "weak pump" would I not have bad oil pressure as well?

Here are the tests I did:
Fuel Pressure Regulator and Fuel Pump Test - Gauge connected to test port for all tests
Bought an Actron fuel pressure tester with fittings and pressure release valve/button and bought FPR at Advance Auto yesterday.

At engine off; ignition ON position
1. Flick ignition on and off several times to verify pressure remains constant
Should be between 30-45 psi (210-310 kPa)
If not then bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter

At engine ON; ignition ON
2. Remove vacuum line from FPR
Gauge should increase 5 to 12 psi
If not then bad regulator; replace

At engine ON; ignition ON
3. Increase engine speed to 2500 rpm and maintain for one full minute.
Record fuel pressure.
Should be between 30-45 psi (210-310 kPa)
If not then bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter

I watched during each test to make sure there was no fuel leak at the test port/gauge connection point. I hand tightened it as tight as I could get it.

I need fast answers so I'm going to post this post in its own thread too. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5754879#post5754879 - This'll be good for others to quick reference anyway rather than this monster thread.

I know OEM would be what most recommend, but I'm in serious money savings mode now. What of the following choices for brands would be your next choice?

Bosch
Carter
Python
Airtex
Master Electric
Best Test (BTF)
Delphi (says actual OE part)
BWD
ACDELCO

Another thought - if the TPS was bad could it throw off my test results with the FP? IE: Pressure accurately reported, but TPS not throttling the injectors like its supposed to?

Ok I tried to replace the f___ing fuel filter today and after 4 hours of wrestling with the damn thing and a trip back to get a fuel disconnect tool that fits the got damn thing will not come off of the front side stainless-steel connector line. I even invited the neighbor over to give it a shot cause he'd done it on his and he couldn't get it off either. It would not fucking budge for the life of either of us.

Something very odd though. The rear line just slid right off like someone had f___ing lubed it with KY. The retaining clip doesn't do anything and to me it does not feel like this line is secure under pressure, though there are no leaks either..... but this could explain why sometimes I swear I smell fuel from that side of the van after it has sat for a while or even while out and about. Could this be my pressure problem?

I put the fucking filter back on.

Tested again with FPR vac line off...... now pressure goes up to 40 PSI from 30 PSI every single time.

At idle and at accel to spec test rpms the psi remains FLAT at 30psi and does not move at all.

WTF?

I am going on vacation for 4 days and forgetting this bullshit. I hope I have some good n nice n sweet replies to read when I get back. :( lol omg I want to shoot this thing with a rocket so bad.

Make SURE to RELEASE the fuel pressure at the fuel rail pressure test point.....in order to avoid getting sprayed in the face with gasoline.


Rear connector for fuel filter should have a "duck bill" clip.....remove clip and the line comes right off.
FRONT crome connector.....there is a metal "retainer" clip.....then you need a 3/8" (or 5/16" either should work).....you slide the sleeve up inside the crome cup that is over the fuel filter nipple.....push the sleeve up inside there as far as you can......to release the clips inside the crome cup.......pull the crome cup OFF....
I know that this sounds easier than it realy is....why they had to go the Fort Knox method for the front connector and so easy for the back one......I don't know.
Maybe 1 engineer designed rear connection and another did the front.
How either is better than just a simple hose clamp.....I don't know.

From what I recall fuel pressure is checked by:

1) Make sure that the fuel pump is working... (Key on, engine off, P>35 psi)
2) Make sure the fuel filter is OK... (Key on, engine on, idle speed, 35psi<P<45 psi)

The regulator maintains a constant pressure over the injectors. The vacuum line allows the regulator to sense the pressure on the injector outlet. Therefor, at conditions where the manifold vacuum is high, the fuel pressure will drop. When the vacuum line is disconnected from the regulator the pressure will remain effectively unchanged. If it drops a lot, then that would indicate a fuel supply problem (filter or pump).

3) Check the regulator with the vacuum line in place by reving the engine and watching the fuel pressure modulate. Then check it again by disconnecting the vacuum line, reving the engine to see it stay steady.

4) Check the fuel pressure doesn't drop too quickly after turning with the fuel pump turned off. It shouldn't drop more than 5 psi over a 10 minuite period.

I'll take a at the troubleshooting guide for the exact conditions and specs in these tests.

Ok I tried to replace the fucking fuel filter today and after 4 hours of wrestling with the damn thing and a trip back to get a fuel disconnect tool that fits the got damn thing will not come off of the front side stainless-steel connector line. I even invited the neighbor over to give it a shot cause he'd done it on his and he couldn't get it off either. It would not fucking budge for the life of either of us.

Something very odd though. The rear line just slid right off like someone had fucking lubed it with KY. The retaining clip doesn't do anything and to me it does not feel like this line is secure under pressure, though there are no leaks either..... but this could explain why sometimes I swear I smell fuel from that side of the van after it has sat for a while or even while out and about. Could this be my pressure problem?

I put the fucking filter back on.

Tested again with FPR vac line off...... now pressure goes up to 40 PSI from 30 PSI every single time.

At idle and at accel to spec test rpms the psi remains FLAT at 30psi and does not move at all.

WTF?

I am going on vacation for 4 days and forgetting this bullshit. I hope I have some good n nice n sweet replies to read when I get back. :( lol omg I want to shoot this thing with a rocket so bad. my vote is for a rocket propelled grenade launcher, i would have already obliterated mine by now, but alas i hear there is a shortage on those suckers. apparantly al qaida has dibbs, sorry man, i feel your pain. if you're coming through GA on your vacation please stop by and see me. maybe we can figure out a way to demolish both of them at one time on the cheap.

I'm really, really, really sorry for your pain man, BUT....
I'm really, really, really sorry, BUT.......
that filter change from hell was just the cherry on top of your unbelievably, horrendously awful vehicle rebuild!?!

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST THING I'VE EVER READ ON THE FORUM!!!

If there was some way to make that into a Youtube video! That would have been priceless!

Have you seen or heard of the frustrated office worker who just had it with his computer, because try after try after try, he could not get his work to print up on the network printer. Well this 6', 300lb guy rips his computer and monitor off his desk, keyboard and mouse crash to the floor and drags them by the wires and clearing stuff off his desk. He nearly hurls the monitor as he hauls all of it 15 some feet and jams the monitor screen into their photocopier and makes copies of the screen!!!

If I could, I could watch that all day long.:D

I'm really, really, really sorry for your pain man, BUT....
I'm really, really, really sorry, BUT.......
that filter change from hell was just the cherry on top of your unbelievably, horrendously awful vehicle rebuild!?!

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST THING I'VE EVER READ ON THE FORUM!!!

If there was some way to make that into a Youtube video! That would have been priceless!

Have you seen or heard of the frustrated office worker who just had it with his computer, because try after try after try, he could not get his work to print up on the network printer. Well this 6', 300lb guy rips his computer and monitor off his desk, keyboard and mouse crash to the floor and drags them by the wires and clearing stuff off his desk. He nearly hurls the monitor as he hauls all of it 15 some feet and jams the monitor screen into their photocopier and makes copies of the screen!!!

If I could, I could watch that all day long.:D

I'm back from my fishing trip that wasn't so relaxing, but was 50/50 on fun. Still better than dealing with the van.

tripletdaddy - I wish I could've made you laugh some other kind of way, but I'm glad that at least I have provided some people with "some" entertainment. At least thats 1 positive out of all this crap. :)

Yes, I've seen that video a couple of times. Almost as priceless as the one where the guy starts smashing his keyboard and then uses it like a wrestler uses a folding chair to smash the monitor onto the floor. Priceless. :lol2::iceslolan

I read the reply you wrote in the other thread. I guess because the psi was/is at the bottom of the spec (28-30 psi) and then 28 psi under load that it was a bad fuel pump.

I don't really understand how I can't at least have a pump thats going bad with it at bottom spec. I ran this by my trusted shop and they don't think the pump is bad either.

uzzo2 - Yeap. Gotta get one of those rocket launchers.

wiswind - O voice of wisdom.... save us from the fires of hell.... sigh. Thanks man. I know and I'm glad to be reminded to release fuel pressure cause just 1 more foul up like GAS in the FACE during this debacle may just push me over the edge into "losing it land" like the computer smashing dudes.

It is definitely Fort Knox on the front connector as it will not budge at all. Maybe its solidified in there and the spring thingies just won't move cause of it. I'm gonna try to see if I can loosen them up with a small flat head screwdriver 1 side then the other and then see if the fuel line disconnecting tool will work. I can barely see when I tilt the front side connector downward to see down it there are like 2 parallel straight clips holding the filter on.

So here's the plan for today:
1. I do not plan to give taking the filter off much effort at all if I cannot budge the 2 parellel clips holding the front line on.

2. If #1 fails which I'm sure it will beautifully I will use a new clip from the new filter to put on the rear connection hoping this solves my loose line issue and maybe just fucking MAYBE this was my whole problem as the old clip was not keeping the rear line secure/stationary.

I can only hope that the fuel shooting out is due to the rear line thing and not damage to the front line. God help me. Here I go. Post back soon.

The heat stopped me from trying #1 so I went straight to #2 and put a new clip on there and wa-la success. No spewing gas everywhere. I will just drive it like the shop said and see what happens and I will continue to leave the a/c ON..... which isn't a problem in 95 degree heat and 90% humidity in this New Orleans, LA metro area anyway.

As time goes on I'll post back. I'll test to see if the stall condition went away or not by having a "good clip" on the rear connection of the fuel filter when I go drive it sometime.

For the sake of submitting and completely giving in to Murphy's law and because usually things happen opposite of what you want or say I'm betting that the problem is not fixed and that driving it around for a while will not fix it. But we shall see.

A big fucking "WHEW" for now.

EDIT: I forgot to add that fuel pressure did slightly go UP from previous tests to a steady 31-32psi after I put the new clip on back of the fuel filter line. Removing vac line from FPR raises psi steadily (not fast like before) to about 39-40psi repeatedly over 3 tests. I revved the engine to the rev limit by hand in the engine bay while I watched the fuel pressure gauge and it remained 29 - 32psi and really only hit 29 psi when I let off the accelerator momentarily which would seem right to me cause it came back to 31psi at idle.

So far the moral of the story (which has not ended yet i'm sure) is to make sure that rear fuel filter connection clip is in good shape and replace it every time you replace your fuel filter which is what the manual recommends anyway. I know whoever did my fuel filter last time did not replace it.

IDEA: If the fuel pump screen/strainer was clogged couldn't you get it unclogged by using Seafoam or B-12 Chemtool? Usually the idea behind using this stuff is to have a full tank of gas to clean the injectors right.... but what if I intended to clean the screen/strainer.... wouldn't you put it in when the tank is at its lowest amount of gas so that the chemical additive is more potent? What ya think? Anybody?

I know I know... I'm trying to clean the screen without dropping the tank... the only reason I ask about this idea is because 1 time I used the B-12 Chemtool and I used a plastic pen to hold the gas spout open so I could pour it in. Afterwards I noticed that the pen had started to "chemically melt".... so that B-12 Chemtool is some serious shit! What ya'll think of the idea?

searcherrr (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=104894)
In response to your private message. I had my pump done. I had just filled it with gas and didnt want to mess with it. The way I was able to identify the problem was using the fuel pressure tester with key on engine off. It should have read about 34 lbs I believe and mine got progressivly worse. I would turn the key to the on position and check and it was like 15 lbs. Turning the key on and off a bunch of times would bring it up to pressure. Thats not how its supposed to work though. Its a shame my daughter wrecked the car becuase thats new too. vbmenu_register("postmenu_5758829", true);

searcherrr (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=104894)
I just read your post about fuel pressure test. I dont understand your procedure. You should only turn on the key once and when the fuel pump stops running it should be at pressure. If you have to turn off and on to get it to pressure the pump is bad. The Fpr disconnected and the car running should only bring the pressure up a little. It will fluctuate without the vacume line connected. Very little chance of a bad fuel filter with only 8000 miles on it.

Did installing the fuel filter clip fix the "horrible MPG" by any chance? If so, you've been every oilman's dream.

Sorry if I didn't get around to mentioning it, but you were thinking maybe the gas smell you had noticed by the driver's door was caused by the loose fitting on the fuel filter. What I really think you were smelling is the escaping gas vapors that go to the EVAP canister which is right next to the filter and door. I too will get just a whiff of gas, try to smell it some more looking for a leak but never can smell anymore to trace it to a leak. I'd say that's what you have. I'd think the fitting to the filter would more obviously show symptoms of a leak.

Using the B-12 at too strong of a potency, as you have already proven, might harm something that you didn't intend to. I'd reread the label, but I remember reading that if your tank is too small, they wanted you to use less than the whole can. You'd really kick yourself if you melted the filter sock or something else. If you have any grit in your tank, bye bye pump. I've dropped a few tanks and have always been amazed and impressed how remarkably clean they were. No varnish, buildup, grit, etc. You're in LA, so you might get more hard stuff in it, but I think these modern gases have such good additives that clean and help disolve things and absorb water, you probably don't have much in your tank, unless someone sabatoged it or accidentally left open on a dusty road.

Did installing the fuel filter clip fix the "horrible MPG" by any chance? If so, you've been every oilman's dream.
I don't know yet. I haven't driven it beyond 1/8 of a tank. I was exactly at 1/2 tank when I reset the trip odometer and I'm going to run it to E and see how many miles I get. If I get 200 or close to it I'll be happy that I've fixed the MPG thing, but I will monitor it on next fill-up and use the "gallons filled" receipt to remind me.

THEORY: Would/Could the hose being "half-on" the back end (just beyond the snap-on ring) of the fuel filter nozzle cause slight seepage of fuel/vapors during use and also while sitting not in use...... but just seepage balanced enough to leak just a lil bit of pressure/fuel (while not pouring all over the ground) such that it causes bad MPG and other fuel related issues?

I'm wondering about this now regarding how the computer has learned the driving habits over the past 8000 miles in this setup. Should I pull the battery cable to reset the computer or should I just continue to drive it and let it learn how it is with the hose clipped all the way on the rear of that fuel filter nozzle?

FYI - Tonight I turned the A/C off as I sat idle when I came home to see if the near stall thingy happens still. IT DOES STILL HAPPEN. ARRGGGGHHH!!!!!! I'm still set with using the A/C on all the time to alleviate this, but of course this is just a workaround. When it tries to stall or "dips" in idle it does this twice in succession and goes down to about 500 rpms each time. Then it levels off. I don't know if it stays leveled off indefinitely (while leaving a/c off all the time), but I do know it does this idle dip as I've been saying only after the rad fans turn off.

Sorry if I didn't get around to mentioning it, but you were thinking maybe the gas smell you had noticed by the driver's door was caused by the loose fitting on the fuel filter. What I really think you were smelling is the escaping gas vapors that go to the EVAP canister which is right next to the filter and door. I too will get just a whiff of gas, try to smell it some more looking for a leak but never can smell anymore to trace it to a leak. I'd say that's what you have. I'd think the fitting to the filter would more obviously show symptoms of a leak.

Using the B-12 at too strong of a potency, as you have already proven, might harm something that you didn't intend to. I'd reread the label, but I remember reading that if your tank is too small, they wanted you to use less than the whole can. You'd really kick yourself if you melted the filter sock or something else. If you have any grit in your tank, bye bye pump. I've dropped a few tanks and have always been amazed and impressed how remarkably clean they were. No varnish, buildup, grit, etc. You're in LA, so you might get more hard stuff in it, but I think these modern gases have such good additives that clean and help disolve things and absorb water, you probably don't have much in your tank, unless someone sabatoged it or accidentally left open on a dusty road.
WOW!!!!! YOU ARE RIGHT!!! I BET I AM SMELLING THE EVAP CANISTER!!!.... BUT REALLY MAN SHOULD I BE SMELLING IT THAT STRONG? I have never known any other vehicle I've had to let off that strong a fuel smell, but on my 3000 I know the EVAP canister is in front near the fans so maybe the fans dispurse it before I ever smell it anyway. You are so right cause I sit there and constantly sniff around trying to find where its coming from, but it makes all the sense in the world it's the EVAP.

I put a can of B-12 in at half tank. It treats up to 21 gallons and I have the 25 gallon tank so I had roughly 12.5 gallons in when I poured it in. This would be a lil stronger than the recommended mixture, but I decided to just go with it. I'm still less than 1/8 of a tank lower than the 1/2 mark so I have a bit of fuel to burn before I know how many miles I'm getting per half tank since the CLIP of the fuel filter being fixed.

In hot weather, you are better off keeping the A/C running....it actually keeps the motor and TRANSMISSION COOLER.
The A/C being ON will KEEP the radiator fans ON at low speed when the vehicle is not moving at a minimum speed......which will keep the temperature of the coolant cooler (and not waiting for the engine temperature to cause the fans to come on)....and this will keep the transmission fluid cooler.....so......it is better.

Hopefully things will settle down for you now.
I think that the PCM will learn the changes on its own.......so no need to reset it....(which would cause it to have to relearn a lot of other data)

Searcherr, I've lost track of your agonizingly long repair saga (for you),....:shakehead: I have forgotten your repairs in an attempt to stop the stall, rpm dip that occurs when turning off the radiator fan.
Did you replace the ccrm, both fans, fan dropping resistor, etc.....?
If you run it with the ac off and let it get hot enough, the fan will come on low and then turn off on its own and cause the dip?
So, the dip happens at both fan speeds turning off?
No major dip at startup?
Can you stick an ampmeter in with the fan circuit to observe the amperage draw when it dips?
Have you tried turning the fan on and off by pulling the ECT wire connector to see if it still dips?
Try using a gound and hot jumpers in place of the wiring to the fan, and see if using that creates the dip problem. Somehow avoid using the wiring connector so that you don't backfeed the electrical system with the jumpers.

Just got back from Pensacola (235 miles each way). Currently I'm getting 10mpg in town and 17 mpg on the highway and these figures are very accurate. I just took a trip and tested it. Overdrive is definitely getting utilized and besides the problem I've been trying to figure out (almost stalls/stumbles at ONLY hot idle when in park or in drive at idle when A/C is off after radiator fans turn off) the van drives like a dream and sounds just as it should (very smooth running) except when I turn off the A/C and the fans turn off.

All those items you mentioned in the previous post have been replaced. Every time whether its a shut off of the a/c or a/c off and fans turning off on their own it tries to stall the van. I guess we could call it a stumble and it picks itself right back up. YES, this only happens when full HOT. Never at cold.

I still don't like that I smelled even a "hint" and it was just a HINT of fuel for a split second and then gone from the FPR and I also don't like that when observing the fuel pressure while doing various testing that the psi remained 30psi and at one point dipped to 29 and eventually came back up to about 31.

I don't have an ampmeter. I have a multimeter..... Could I measure amps with that? or does that just measure volts?

I have tested ECT resistance and it checks out, however I have not tried pulling the ECT connector while its in use I don't think.

I am not sure I believe (unless someone can explain otherwise) the new fans are pulling too many amps. As I understand it the motors themselves pull the amps so why would i observe a higher than usual amp draw with the new fans? I could buy something being wrong with the harness setup, but again I'm really sick of dealing with this. The damn shop should've resolved this stuff and I got aggravated in May and didn't even bring it back to them. My stance right now is to just leave it be until I have more time and money to deal with it. Aside from the almost stalling or stumbling and the horrible MPG the van runs and sounds like a damn champ. Its just so smooth and a pleasure to drive. I just wish I could lick this damn MPG problem and the near stall issue.

I'm starting to think about replacing things randomly, but trying not to let myself.

Things that come to mind are the coil pack (It looks fine, but I've seen others say so did theirs and their pack was bad), the TPS, the crank or cam sensor, power steering pressure switch/sensor (if this vehicle has one), the FPR, the fuel pump and anything else i haven't replaced yet. Something I haven't replaced has GOT to be the issue.

Also wanted to note. After I redid the negative battery post wires and put in the new dropping resistor the "near stall or stumble" issue seemed to get WORSE! It would cause it to stall out more ..... um.... prominently.... for a lil bit longer and lower on the RPMs.

Lastly, I think I (we) need to entertain the idea that the near stall/stumble is not necessarily related to the radiator fans turning off, but somehow just a symptom of some other indirect issue. It could be the fan circuit etc.. but I want to entertain that possibility that its not related to the fans (IE: possibly fuel or some other electric somewhere).

On the Eve of what I'm calling Katrina Part 2 (Gustav) I thought I'd tackle this gas mileage problem perhaps 1 more time from a different perspective before I have to evacuate. All forecast models are concentrated with a bee line to Louisiana and as of 3AM CDT its forecast to be a Cat 3 or 4 at landfall and I would be within 75 miles of the eyewall on the worst side of the storm for its strength and tornado spawning.

Sooo...... I was wondering.... would it be stupid of me to go and replace the ignition coils or the TPS right before I pack up to leave? or would it in the long run possibly save me a bunch of gas since I'm getting a wonderful 10mpg in town traffic (which I'm sure to encounter a lot of in evac mode) and 17mpg on highway.

Approaching this differently from what I haven't replaced I figured is a better strategy because at this point there are lesser things I haven't replaced than the ones I have. lol

TPS - Throttle Position Sensor (Has yours ever gone bad?)
Crankshaft position sensor (Has yours ever gone bad?)
Camshaft position sensor (Has yours ever gone bad?)
Ignition coil (Has yours ever gone bad?)
Ignition control module (Has yours ever gone bad?)
O2 sensors are originals from at least 1 previously overheated cat; but no O2 codes
Used cleaned MAS (still looks good though; no codes) (Has yours ever gone bad?)
ECT (resistance tested out correctly) (Has yours ever gone bad?)
Intake Air Temperature sensor (resistance tested out correctly) (Has yours ever gone bad?)

Fuel pressure regulator (smelled a FAINT FAINT FAINT amount of fuel from it and you aren't supposed to; though FPR tests pass) (Has yours ever gone bad?)
Fuel Pump (to me its a weak pump, though shop doesn't agree even though I saw 29 - 30psi on the gauge) (Has yours ever gone bad?)

Alternator - though tests good multiple times, but could the regulator or rectifier be on its last leg causing anomalys that cause no codes and don't drain the battery? If so I've never known another alternator like that.

Odd problems that may or may not be related
-Window washer push-in button requires just the right push to get it to work
-NEW rear window opener buttons work in REVERSE:
--Pushing up on right switch opens right side rear window; push down closes
--Pushing down on left switch opens left side rear window; push up closes

Does this window switch thingy perhaps tell me there are some grounds crossed somewhere
or did my new switch just come made in the reverse?

Starting with the easiest parts to replace (TPS, IC, ICM, FPR, ECT) would ya'll at this point just start replacing items and SEE what happens?

Have you considered this hurricane maybe a blessing in disguise? If you have comprehensive insurance coverage, inocently park it in a flood zone and cut your losses! Then you can start with a fresh new van with its own set of problems!?! You may be better off!!! :D

Ok, ok. On many of the things you mentioned on this fan stumble business and bad mpg, I just don't know how to procede. If you have all new plugs, wires, whatever and no codes, I'd wait on the coil. I don't know 100% if it has an icm or if that is part of the pcm, but it makes you wonder about the two. If it does, I thought that it could cause mpg problems. At a parked idle, does it ever have sooty exhaust?

On the electrical issue, I'd make sure the battery and alt are strong, which I think you've done. Does the alt light ever flicker? So my next suggestion would be to be sure you have clean and tight grounds for the fans, the body, block, ignition. A bad ground to the fans will cause a voltage drop and spike and a current surge to the fans. I wonder if the shielding for interference for the ignition isn't right, though that might code too.

I doubt changing the ect would help the electrical issue, but if it's values are off it could affect mpg. It's cheap and easy to replace. Be sure to buy a brass and not a plastic one, but if you are confident in what you measured to be ok, then don't bother. A trick or test of a sort to see if the ect has any influence on your fan maybe, is to with a warm engine, pull the connector to the ect causing the fans to come on and then reattach it causing the fans to go off, as long as the engine isn't too hot to need the fans on at that moment. If the problem still exits, I'd think that would rule out the ect, which I doubt anyway would be the culprit, as it only sends a signal to the pcm and the pcm sends a message to the ccrm to turn on the fans.

On the same line of thinking, the iat may be worth testing, as it too affects fuel, egr, etc.

You may be able to measure current with your meter, but usually very little fused. Often in a different jack you can measure more, but unfused.

I'd think if you have a problem with the FPR, you would more than once be able to smell gas. I assume you are smelling the vac line to it, which if there is a leak, would suck it up, so that you could smell it and if enough, cause some surging or emission code, which you aren't.

I can't offer anything on your list of parts going bad as none have. Have you searched for bad mpg and fuel? I've had fp issues, but none that cause mpg problems.

I have the same problem getting the ww fluid to come on too. Sounds like the new window switch is backwards. Any chance the wires were swapped putting the connector on? You may be able to release the two wire pins inside the connector and swap them. The switch simply alternates polarity to the window motor, but the input or output is reversed.



I still think you should consider the flood and insurance angle. :D Good luck man. You and the rest of you down there will need it!

Mine's a '99 so things will be different. But some early failures for me included: IAT valve, Camshaft pos sensor, and the DPFE sensor. Later (150 kmiles or so) I also lost the camshaft synchronizer and the fuel pump, .... and of course, the intake manifold thingy more than once. The coil got replaced at about 200kmiles ... but it was because of a wrong diagnosis.

The crankshaft sensor and the Throttle Pos Sensor are still original at 240k miles.

Good luck dealing with the big bad blow!

BTW, 10 mpg for pure city driving ain't bad, I get less I'm sure.

Have you considered this hurricane maybe a blessing in disguise? If you have comprehensive insurance coverage, inocently park it in a flood zone and cut your losses! Then you can start with a fresh new van with its own set of problems!?! You may be better off!!! :D


LOL - Unfortunately I gotta take the van if I want to keep anything of mine. :) but it was good to read something funny. :)

Thanks for your other suggestions.

12Ounce - Can anyone else confirm getting 10mpg in town? I can't believe that could be true and LEGIT or OK??????? :eek7: If this is the way it really is can some others let me know? I thought everyone was getting better than that city/hwy? cause if people are not then I'm just wasting my time on nothing.

I use the on-board calculator. If I reset this thing and do several miles locked down in city, stop-and-go driving ... I've seen readings as low as 8mpg. Of course, purely on the highway I want to see mid-twenties and better. But if there is a mixture of highway driving and a good bit of town driving ... the "high teens" is all I hope to get.

17 does sound low for highway. At least 20 or more would be expected. On long trips, I may get 25, but that's if it's flat, no slow downs and cc all the time. That's also with a somewhat loaded van. I don't do city driving, so don't know there. Are you heavy footed with the gas and brake? That will suck down your mpg.

I have not been on for a couple of days....but cannot offer much advice anyhow.
This is a super difficult problem to track down.
The ICM is a part of the PCM on the older (most likely newer also) windstars.

17mpg sounds a bit low.......city mileage can be anyone's guess.....some folks spend more time sitting idling in traffic....creeping forward a few feet every few seconds.....and those folks are going to see pitiful mileage.

I would also expect 20-24mpg from this vehicle.
Problem is.....3-4mpg is a tough problem to track down.....as it indicates "sort of" a problem......but not a serious problem.
Tire inflation.....brake dragging....etc can easily rob a few mpg's from you.

I also hate to tell you to throw parts at it to try to fix the problem.....as you have already replaced so much.
Some things are "tune up" items......air/fuel filters and such.....so this is where I normaly start.
The stumble seems like the PCM is seeing something it should not......or not seeing something it should.
With no codes......it is a crap shoot.
Although fuel pressure and fuel flow are NOT monitored at all by the PCM.....which puts that on the list.
But a fuel pump is pricey.....in the cost of the unit....as well as the cost of the installation (gotta drop the fuel tank).
How a fuel pump would cause a stumble only when the fans turn OFF is beyond me......

I would re-check all the power and ground connections.......remember that these were messed with during the engine replacement process.
It is super easy to miss a connection......or break/damage a wire or connector.

THIS POST #129 IS TO SERVE AS A THREAD SUMMARY AND NEW START:

Problem remains:
Near stalling only at HOT idle and also HOT running while in DRIVE and vehicle stopped as soon as cooling fans turn OFF. Problem seems slightly worse than a few months ago. Has been driven now roughly 2000 miles on new engine.

Isolated behavior:
KEY NOTE: Unplugging the cooling fans ELIMINATES the near stalling effect at ANY engine temperature WITH or WITHOUT the A/C on. Allowed temp to get up to "R" on the temp gauge briefly to ensure it still didn't try to stall while fans were unplugged. Does not try to stall COLD or HOT with cooling fans unplugged when A/C cycled on/off.

Things replaced/tried/investigated:
1. CCRM
2. Both cooling fans; Old ones worked fine; New ones on and same problem.
3. Radiator Fan dropping resistor
4. ECT checks good in low and high temps
5. Alternator is fine; tested many ways; tests good.
6. Grounds at front of vehicle & at alternator checkout. Haven't checked grounds elsewhere (IE: At firewall side of engine bay)

Ongoing Theories:
1. Back-EMF from cooling fans
2. Back-EMF from ac clutch coil?
3. List of things not replaced in post #122.

Possible back-emf paths to the PCM:
1. Fuse W (10A in engine fuse box) to Pin 4 at PCM
2. CCRM (replaced)
3. FANS - Selectron had said that back-emf protection was not shown in the diagrams he looked up at the time, but that a reverse-biased diode was likely built-in to the fans themselves and that even if the diode onboard the fans failed he wasn't sure back-emf/voltage spike could get past the fans without destroying them.

Proceeding:
I've msg'ed Selectron (anyone else contribute if you can/want too) about proceeding with the back-emf theory and hopefully we can discuss how to put in a reverse biased diode to test back-emf coming from the fans. Though what I do not understand is that with the fans unplugged the problem goes away, which is good, but I have NEW fans now so it would seem that something is being missed.

Given that I have new fans, if the diagrams only show paths of the CCRM and Fuse W as possible paths to get back to the PCM with back-emf, then does this mean that the problem MUST BE a bad GROUND SOMEWHERE?

Would an EMF reading device help me at all in this matter?


New problem surfaced (may or may not be related):
Smell Radiator fluid inside and outside when 1st use of heater a few days ago. Coolant reservoir emptied completely when using heater for 1st time since February. Thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5849387#post5849387

While looking for a new coolant leak tonight I discovered 2 or 3 mini vac hoses at a vac junction that were 75% pushed onto their spouts. I pushed them in the additional 25%. AIR LEAKS THERE? Who knows.

More interesting. UNMETERED AIR? - There is a dent and/or "POSSIBLE CRACK" in the center section air intake pipe pretty close to where the pipe could hit something that looks exhaust or DPFE related. Someone working on my van must've leaned on the air intake pipe as if it were a table to cause such a dent or "possible crack" in that hard plastic material. I didn't have time to remove the center section air intake pipe, but I rolled some clear duck tape all the way around it and over this spot. If air was leaking there I'm hoping it'll just suck inward of the tape and seal the leak and MY GAWD COULD THIS BE THE END OF THIS GHOSTLY NEAR STALLING AT IDLE/DRIVE-WHILE-STOPPED?

I will not know for sure until I fix my new and so wonderful coolant leak coming from the NEW FORD OEM radiator cap.

If there was unmetered air at the dent/crack in the air intake middle pipe it didn't fix a damn thing to cover it up. Still tries to stall ONLY after rad fans turn off.

I think I'm gonna get creative here. I'm gonna run the van for 30 - 45 minutes without the radiator fans connected. Gonna get a big fan and put it right in front of the radiator (or 2 big fans if needed) to keep it cool once it goes just above the "M" on the temp meter. What I am attempting to do is more than rule out that the engine doesn't try to stall when the radiator fans are not in play at all.

Thats my project till Selectron can get back on here and help me with this diode idea he had.

I was thinking about this again (especially since it seems Selectron gave up on me; lol) and I'm not really feelin the back-emf thing now. Here's why:

1. The other day I revved the engine to 1000-1300 RPMs and held it steady as the radiator fans were on. I held the RPMs in that range until the fans cut off (when I should be expecting the back-emf; at fan turn off) and when the fans cut off the engine DID NOT TRY TO STALL like it does when its idle or in drive at a stop.

If this was a back-emf issue from the fans it would not pick and choose when it delivers this back-emf, it would ALWAYS deliver the back-emf regardless.

2. Both fans are new. If this was a back-emf issue from the fans it would've been solved when installing new fans (or very likely so).

New thoughts:
I do not believe I have an electrical issue now cause the back-emf should occur at all times regardless of RPMs and should even try to stall the van while in motion as the radiator fans are cutting off which would normally be during low speed stop-n-go traffic. I think either air/fuel is getting cut off or slowed enough that when the cooling fans turn off, proper idle cannot be maintained and that this "halfway" reset/restart (near stall) of the engine is causing random electrical problems upon getting back up to speed. Previous electrical problems include: Broken MAS element wire and PCM fried.

FACT: This only happens at idle (in park or in drive)tells me there is a problem maintaining the subtle balance between air/fuel required to hold idle speed.

FACT: The RPMs needle constantly hunts up and down within about 100rpms even when there is no load running against the engine.

FACT: Giving the engine enough gas to hold idle over 900 RPMs while the fans cut off keeps the almost-stalling from happening every time.

FACT: Almost stalling does not occur until after the fans have turned off at least 1 time.


New Action Plan:
I believe I'm going to start replacing the most relevant suspects and see what happens. I didn't want to, but I'm tired of it being like this. I'm going to go in the order of the following list:

1. Remove cowl and Inspect for vacuum leaks. I've never wanted to remove the cowl. Uggh.

2. While cowl is off - Inspect for bad grounds.

3. FPR - ORDERING TONIGHT - The FPR is in constant motion, helps control idle speed and fuel flow, may have melted/damaged internal rubber parts due to previous engine overheat, but not damaged too bad to where it can't work at all. I also have smelled a FAINT amount of fuel from the FPR's spout when removing the vac line and you are not supposed to smell ANY FUEL at all when doing this, but I was never sure if it was supposed to be a very strong smell or just barely a fuel smell or what.

4. TPS - Original and in nearly constant motion; wear item

5. IAC - I have a new one installed, but I'm gonna try another one (swap in) and take it back if the problem is still there.

6. Ignition COILS - (will remove and inspect closely first; if look good may skip it)

7. ICM

8. Camshaft position sensor

9. Crankshaft position sensor


The bottom of the list:
10. MAS - Used/New cleaned MAS is installed. Still looks good; no codes. May clean again and swap in another to see, but this is a doubtful cause to me at this point.
11. O2 sensors; though no codes; are originals from at least 1 previously overheated cat

12. Fuel Pump - Will retest, but to me it is a weak pump, though shop doesn't agree.

13. Alternator - Though multiple tests show it as good if I haven't resolved this problem by this bullet #13, there will be extremely little left to look into. Maybe the regulator or rectifier could be on its last leg causing anomalys that cause no codes and don't drain the battery? If so I've never known another alternator like that.

I intended to do the #3 FPR with #1 and #2, but of course I just did the FPR cause it was easiest.

Tests done with new FPR in.

Result: No change in engine behavior, unless 1lb less of fuel pressure resulted.

Detailed Results:
1. When I connected the fuel pressure test gauge (with relief valve button) to the test port there was absolutely ZERO residual spray of fuel. ALL other times that I have tested the FUEL pressure there's always been spray. The gauge showed "NO FUEL PRESSURE". It was just absent completely and this is after the engine had sat for over a day or so in about 40 - 60 degrees overnight temperatures for a couple days. Since its gotten cold outside maybe this resulted in this test result of no pressure. I found it suspect thugh.

2. Results of fuel psi testing are as follows related to the procedures listed below:
a.1. Flick ignition on/off several times - Pressure remained at 28-30psi (barely making it to 30psi; more like 29psi)
b.2. Remove vac line from FPR - Pressure remained at 38psi
c.3.a. Idle PSI = 27 - 29psi
c.3.b. 2500rpms for 1 full minute = 27 - 29psi

3. NOTE: 9 months ago when I tested fuel psi the lowest I got was 28psi. Since then and about 1500 - 2000 miles of driving its gone down 1psi.

For reference sake to go with results above:
Fuel Pressure Regulator and Fuel Pump Test - Gauge connected to test port for all tests

At engine off; ignition ON position
1. Flick ignition on and off several times to verify pressure remains constant
Should be between 30-45 psi (210-310 kPa) (Ford service manual)
If not then bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter

At engine ON; ignition ON
2. Remove vacuum line from FPR
Gauge should increase 5 to 12 psi (Ford service manual)
If not then bad regulator; replace

At engine ON; ignition ON
3. Increase engine speed to 2500 rpm and maintain for one full minute.
Record fuel pressure.
Should be between 30-45 psi (210-310 kPa) (Ford service manual)
If not then bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter


Question: Until I resolve this matter could I simply run with the FPR vac line disconnected so that my FUEL PSI is in spec range? Should hurt anything huh?

New idea for test: If the fuel pump is "going bad", but I get 38 psi at fpr vac line disconnect then if I am right about my near stalling being the fuel pump shouldn't this "near stall sputter; dip below 750rpms" cease if I left the vac line off the fpr for 10 - 15 minutes while at full hot?

New idea for test: If I can rig something up I'd like to test the PSI before the fuel filter and after the fuel pump. This I think would help me rule out a clogged fuel filter (which mine is new as of 9000 miles ago) as I have not been able to remove the one that is on there now.

Executive Decision: After over 1 year of living with this problem I have decided that my fuel pump is "bad/going bad" and has been in this state for a very long time and likely the only reason it hasn't died yet is because of my repeated use of B-12 Chemtool. I am going to get 2 other mechanic's/shop's opinion (other than my trusted shop who told me the fuel pump was probably ok despite my test results). I have simply decided to embrace and believe the Ford CD manual's documentation. I mean they didn't write it for their health. I will do the last easy "FPR vac line removed" test and see if the engine tries to stall or not in that condition as I had not paid attention to this before because every time I'd removed it before it was just momentarily to test the FPR's function.

Items done thus far are IN BOLD according to new ACTION PLAN above:

1. Remove cowl and Inspect for vacuum leaks. I've never wanted to remove the cowl. Uggh.

2. While cowl is off - Inspect for bad grounds.

3. FPR

4. TPS - Original and in nearly constant motion; wear item

5. IAC - I have a new one installed, but I'm gonna try another one (swap in) and take it back if the problem is still there.

6. Ignition COILS - (Old ones test out fine, but NEW lower resistance Accel coils installed anyway.)

7. ICM

8. Camshaft position sensor w/ New Synchro

9. Crankshaft position sensor


The bottom of the list:
10. MAS - Used/New cleaned MAS is installed. Still looks good; no codes. May clean again and swap in another to see, but this is a doubtful cause to me at this point.

11. O2 sensors; though no codes; are originals from at least 1 previously overheated cat

12. Fuel Pump - Having shop replace it today. I want to see the FUEL PSI within factory specs no matter what anyone has told me that they don't think its bad. Furthermore the tank is very likely dirty since I had a clogged filter recently.

13. Alternator - Though multiple tests show it as good if I haven't resolved this problem by this bullet #13, there will be extremely little left to look into. Maybe the regulator or rectifier could be on its last leg causing anomalys that cause no codes and don't drain the battery? If so I've never known another alternator like that.

My vote is still for the RPG through the back window:rofl:
Don't dread taking off the cowl, it's a lot easier than it looks, i can have mine off in about 15 minutes. Take off the windshield wipers and the antenna, several screws, then unplug the wiper motor and just pull it all out together, easy cheezy, good luck!

6. Ignition COILS - (Old ones test out fine, but NEW lower resistance Accel coils installed anyway.)did you do this, how did it come out?

Working in these threads right now:
Re: Bad fuel pump? 95 3.8L 158k miles
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5893703#post5893703

Re: Bad coil pack symptoms
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5893762#post5893762

My vote is still for the RPG through the back window:rofl:
Don't dread taking off the cowl, it's a lot easier than it looks, i can have mine off in about 15 minutes. Take off the windshield wipers and the antenna, several screws, then unplug the wiper motor and just pull it all out together, easy cheezy, good luck!

If the problem is still there after I get it back from the shop I'll pull the cowl and so a thorough vacuum line inspection.

RPG sounds like a lot more fun.

Items done IN BOLD:

1. Remove cowl and Inspect for vacuum leaks.

2. While cowl is off - Inspect for bad grounds.

3. FPR

4. TPS - Original and in nearly constant motion; wear item

5. IAC - I have a new one installed, but the problem at idle behaves like a bad IAC.

6. Ignition COILS - (Old ones test out fine, but NEW lower resistance Accel coils installed anyway.)

7. ICM

8. Camshaft position sensor w/ New Synchro - Since synchro installed there is a rattling/clicking/tapping sound from it.

9. Crankshaft position sensor


The bottom of the list:
10. MAS - Used/New cleaned MAS is installed. Still looks good; no codes. May clean again and swap in another to see, but this is a doubtful cause to me at this point.

11. O2 sensors; though no codes; are originals from at least 1 previously overheated cat

12. Fuel Pump - Have yet to test PSI with new pump. Will tomorrow.

13. Alternator - Though multiple tests show it as good, my shop told me Thursday its bad. I don't know why and wasn't given any details on this, but $350 parts/labor later I have a new alternator and I'm not even sure I believe I needed it.

#8, I would ask the shop to look into the rattle sound from the synchro....it should be quiet.

IAC
I looked into vacuum lines this weekend and put together a makeshift vacuum testing rig today. Well, I found a couple of things. I didn't remove the cowl and just eyeballed where everything coming off the intake plenum was and following it all with my hands to where I couldn't see I felt if it was plugged in all the way. Some weren't, but I doubt they were leaking cause they were mostly plugged on well.

I put the air compressor on at about 17lbs and connected it to the air pipe right behind where the maf sensor goes so that I'd be testing from the pipe to the throttle body and beyond.

What did I get? BIG TIME ..... BIG TIME .... BIG TIME AIR coming out of the IAC itself. I removed the IAC cover and cupped the IAC with my hand and then removed it (repeated several times) so that I could hear the air leak sound changing to confirm it was at the IAC and sure enough this brand new IAC has been broken from Day 1. It did this on the old engine prior to the new engine install too, but it wasn't nearly as noticeable on the old engine for some reason.

The IAC on there is from NAPA, which my trusted shop swears by. Hoping that I could see some difference in the way my RPMs behave when I turn the steering wheel and when the fans cut off, I very tightly wound some electrical tape around the IAC where I think its leaking (at the metal joint part; where the pintle electrical portion inserts into the valve opening portion) and unfortunately I saw no difference in the way the RPMs behaved. The IAC electrics could be blown out too, so it may be more than a leak from the IAC.... perhaps the old alternator is the culprit.

Does anyone know what the knob on the side of the IAC does?

Today I'm going to let the shop know the results of my vac leak test and IAC thing and see if they'll give me my money back because I really want to get an OEM one. I told them from day 1 it wasn't acting right, right after I got the van back from the new engine installation.

What aggravates me after all this time is that I was the one who had to do the vacuum leak down test whereas I've asked them to do it several times and they always must've thought it wasn't necessary and didn't do it.

HOPE: I have none. I am happy I've identified the IAC as a problem, but I am not waving the "war is over" flag until I try a new OEM IAC out first.

POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE TO FUSE BOX -
Also, I have stumbled across something pretty stupid. The Positive battery cable that goes to the fuse box seems to have a crappy connection to the battery despite my best efforts with the wrong tools to recrimp a new end on it. I was plucking/tapping on it while under the hood and found the under hood light would flicker on/off at some points in sync with my tapping. So I have to recrimp it "the right way" and hope the connection is better, though since the battery doesn't move (its secure) and neither does the cable during operation I doubt this was a big deal.... but its also disturbing that mere tapping on it can flicker the hood light too. I guess I have to invest in a crimping tool and find out where/who sells the GOOD crimping stuff cause the stuff I've seen at Wal-mart and/or Autozone usually isn't that great.

I looked up 1995 3.8L windstar on rockauto's website.
Under "fuel/air" all the way down, Throttle body Gasket, they list several gaskets.
Felpro # 71216 is the one for the IAC

I would try getting that and installing it.
If it does not solve anything....it is a wopping 62 cents.
I would try to locate it at a local auto part store, unless you have something else to order.
Cheapest shipping for just that 1 part to my house is $7.40

I didn't mean to insinuate that it was coming from the IAC gasket. Its coming from the IAC casing itself. AIR just shoots out of there and I can feel it very liberally. I'd call it a major vac leak... definitely not tiny enough to make a hiss or a squeaky noise.... just "foof" air sound rushing out. Makes all the sense in the world to me now because as the IAC tries to adjust it has an air hole right there inside itself.

In any case a new IAC with a new gasket is on order. If idle doesn't stabilize this time (I will pull the battery cable for 5> minutes to clear learned values) I'll do another vac test and if air comes from the same area then we know we're probably dealing with air coming out of the throttle body somewhere near the IAC.

Progress! And a very interesting discovery. Super mega A++ for effort and stick-tuitiveness!! Not having a clear picture in my mind of the location of the leak on the IAC, it does seem reasonable that it shouldn't leak with your pressure test as that would indicate there is unmeasured intake air and a vacuum leak. I wonder why there aren't any codes for the unmeasured air from the IAC leak.

NAPA supposedly warranties parts for lifetime, but of course not all of them. I was surprised when I asked if they do have LLT warranty on parts. Turns out, NAPA or Carquest or a heavy truck parts supplier may be the best place for a higher end wire connector. You probably don't feel like replacing the whole wire assembly, though some here are strong advocates of not using some inferior clamp connectors and instead using a prefab wire with the right ends on it like or better than OEM. I think what is on it is two or more wires crimped together at the battery clamp, so replacing it may be not reasonable. You may consider getting a copper lug and solder it to the end of the wire.

There are some much more expensive wire connectors at good hardware stores, Home Depot, Lowes, and some auto parts stores. They aren't your typical connector. I'm not sure they even crimp on. I think they screw on maybe like a compression type connection and the wire end is encapsulated to prevent corrosion. It might be called GRIPPS, but don't quote me on that.

I would check into what it would cost for a new wire....might be less fuss and not expensive.
If it is a high current wire...and has been loose for some time, the copper wire inside the connector could be chared and/or corroded.

Autozone - They have Tsunami brand lugs/connectors that have an allen wrench screw to compress the wire down inside the gold plated lug. It was 6 bucks. The other positive wire is crimped pretty good already so instead of making the 2 consistent I'm opting to leave it alone (experience teaches me that :) gleaming smile). So I'll have one gold n shiney one going to the fuse box and a regular copper lug to the starter.

I also bought a heavy duty pliers/clipper and basically I'm just gonna clip a bit off the cable and put the fresh end in the tsunami lug. I'm still debating on opening the pliers/clipper (pricey) instead of using some big ass garden shears.

I think I'd prefer the crimping method if I could get a crimper that would do it right, but the kind of crimper I'd want to get will cost at least $25 and it'll rarely be used. Reason I'd prefer the crimp method is it leaves no space inside the lug whereas the allen screw down type leaves some space on either side of the cable I think, but I have to try it out first. If it doesn't lose the signal when I move it around afterwards that'll be fine with me.

I would check into what it would cost for a new wire....might be less fuss and not expensive.
If it is a high current wire...and has been loose for some time, the copper wire inside the connector could be chared and/or corroded.
I should've went with that idea to begin with. I went outside tonight to replace the IAC and put a new lug on the fuse box battery cable at the battery side and found that after I cut back about 1.5" of the cable that it looked like it'd gone a few rounds with some lava. So with 10 minutes left till Autozone closed I rushed over there and got a new cable and some red electrical tape since they apparently only sell black cables. huh. I threw in a nice new roll of blue shop towels too. :)

Replacing the fuse box battery cable was surprisingly easy as Ford thought of this when building the fuse box. When you push a lil tab to the side the end of the box slides up allowing access to the 2 nuts that hold on the heavy voltage cables (1 goes to battery and other to alternator). You also have to release 2 tabs on the side of the fuse box itself to raise the box up a lil bit so you can get a driver/socket behind the box. I wedged a screwdriver handle under the fuse box to hold it up while I operated on it.

After that I resistance tested from the alternator positive lead terminal to the positive lead on the battery cable and got a 0.00 resistance where prior I believe it was showing above 1, which ain't good.

Replaced IAC with new gasket.

Both old IAC and new IAC resistance test around 9.4-9.6 ohms which is within the 6 to 13 ohm allowance according to what I was lucky to find in the Ford Cd-Rom...... but the old IAC is leaking air right?

Well...... I thought so. :( I have to say my constitution is pretty low right now, but maybe there is a glimmer of hope here by the results. The results are that the problem is now worse. Yes, worse..... the "near stall" does seem worse.

So to wrap up.....

Summary of Results:

Replaced thought to be leaking air IAC

Replaced fuse box battery cable

Whistling - There is from time to time a whistling noise (or was at first) when you first turn the wheel slightly left or right. The other day after I taped the old IAC where I thought it was leaking after I shut off the engine there was a very long whining/whistling/squealing noise AFTER the engine was off and finally wound down like letting air out of a balloon.

Near stall issue is now worse

Engine intake vacuum - Now shows in the middle of the green area at idle whereas in past was borderline in the red zone.

Fuel Pressure - Oddly enough fuel pressure is now LOWER at 2000rpms or above, at 26psi since the new fuel pump installed. At idle it is at 28psi which is actually just like the old pump and worse for PSI at acceleration. At key flick (no engine on) pressure gets up to around 37-38psi and holds when you turn it off for at least 5 minutes.Does this mean I have leaky injectors (or no, because pressure holds at key flick)? Cause thats the only thing not replaced yet on the fuel system. -----OR----- because I know I obviously still have a vacuum leak is fuel pressure being affected negatively?
Since new fuel pump my in town mileage has dropped to about 8mpg. :(


Action Plan:
Air was coming from somewhere near the throttle body for sure during the vac leak test. I was positive it was the IAC, but that has to be wrong since the van is still showing near stall signs and they are worse. They are either worse because the new IAC is working better than the old one OR the new positive battery fuse box cable is providing less resistance.

Tomorrow I will proceed with another vac leak test and try to better isolate where the leak is coming from. I'm very discouraged cause this is having me look towards the throttle body which isn't a cheap replacement (I think).

Hey.. If its a vac leak near the throttle body take a propane torch. Turn the gas on.. But of course don't light it.. LOL Just hold the unlit propane torch around the area were it may be leaking and see if the engine idles better or smooths out...I done this before and man does it help.. Of course the mechanic that taught me this died in an explosion...Naaaa! He is still alive. Just kidding.:evillol: Now the type torch i am speaking of is also use in plumbing to solder pipes..

What is the knob for on the side of the IAC?

For whatever reason I've identified on my old and new IAC that air comes out of that spot. Whats the deal with that? Is that how its supposed to be?

Having tested 2 IACs and both leaking from the same spot I did an internet search and on another Ford using the same or similar IAC with a knob on the side it turns out this isn't a knob after all. Its some type of check-valve vent for when the throttle plate slams shut... so in other words its only supposed to let air OUT and only under a certain condition involving the throttle plate..... therefore detecting leaking air from it during a leak test doesn't show me anything.

Unless I can seal this vent or make an IAC block off plate there doesn't seem to be a way to leak test this setup "well". The plate would have to be made of hard steel so that it could be locked down well with the IAC mount bolts.

I can't believe the tightening torque for the IAC is listed as 71 - 101 ft lbs!!! WOW! I have a torque wrench, but I don't have a 8mm socket that deep. I hope I've got the thing tightened good enough.

Right now what I really need to know is what the IAC voltage should be.

Thoughts:

You really need to apply vacuum instead of pressure to the IAC to check that check valve for it to shut and not leak. It needs to seal tightly on its own with vacuum or it's not right.


Those torque values are WAY too high! Are you sure it isn't in-lbs. instead? In fact, that's way too high for that size bolt. The max for that size bolt might be around 20-25 ft-lbs. Tightening too high might break it and deform the IAC. My Haynes manual does not list a torque for the IAC, just "securely", but I did notice the torque for the air intake plenum bolts as 71 - 106 in-lbs. for the 96 - 98, 71 - 97 in-lbs for the 96 and later for the throttle body mounting nuts, and the same torques for the fuel rail mounting bolts for all years. Makes me wonder if you misread it. I definitely don't believe they meant to torque it up to 101 ft-lbs!?! That would snap it off!?!


Lastly, the IAC operating voltage and resistance you already have....from me....on a previous post...I think you should be able to find it.

I have not used a torque wrench on my IAC....just tightened as any other bolt.....it is small.....no need to get carried away.

Your IAC is working, otherwise your motor would be stalling all the time.
It can get sluggish.....but as you have changed it...and had the same issue, I would rule that out.
I would consider the IAC to be in good shape.

What you posted about the knob......sounds like I would not mess with it.....it is there for a reason.

SPECIFICATIONS
TORQUE SPECIFICATIONS
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³ Description ³ N-m ³ Lb-In ³
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³ Idle Air Control Valve to Throttle Body ³ 8-11.5 ³ 71-101

Thats exactly a COPY and PASTE from the CD-ROM.

I wish I could find the IAC voltage ya'll, but this stupid website thread word search has been broken ever since I've used it. The only searches that appear to work are forum searches. When I search in a thread itself it never pulls up anything.

EDIT: I looked up every post that you made in this thread tripletdaddy and I didn't see a mention of IAC operating voltage. There must be some minimum character constraint necessary for the "search thread" search, because iac turns up zilch.

EDIT2: I found it in other thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=937096 :) - I had already forgotten that I guess cause my new IAC didn't solve the problem.

Can anyone help me locate G100 - ground point listed for the 95 3.8L engine? I have looked very carefully and I cannot locate it. It seems to be diagonally between the FPR and the big saucer thing (EGR related?) in the engine bay.... I need to know if its MISSING on mine and if thats why I can't find it or maybe this was a misprint in the manual:
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/G100-UnknownGroundCable.JPG

I found it. Its behind the fuel injector wiring harness on the side of the rear head. The ground leads into the main vehicle wiring harness.

Been working/looking/inspecting the engine bay all day and now night. Inside for a break.

The main intake vacuum line (hard clamped metal fitting over rubber over metal line in front of the intake next to the FPR vac orifice) was loosely on and wouldn't remain flush with the intake so I put a mini hose clamp on it. MAYBE this was a source of air.... probably not. We'll see.

Confirmed location of G100 ground and checked continuity: GOOD.

Finding location of interior grounds. There are 2 behind the glove box that I believe go to the PCM and they don't look tightened flush all the way down and the metal in there is rusty looking. Gonna loosen these, clean corrosion and tighten down.

There's another ground apparently under the driver side carpet beneath the area of the fuse box and another one behind the driver head rest upper part of trim going towards the roof which is responsible for the fuel pump.

JOY JOY JOY FUN FUN FUN.

The diagrams for my '96 show a ground connection....inside...driver side..up above the fuse box.....feel around up there for one.
Did not know about any under the carpet.....maybe they moved it.....or I just did not see in the diagrams......

The diagrams for my '96 show a ground connection....inside...driver side..up above the fuse box.....feel around up there for one.
Did not know about any under the carpet.....maybe they moved it.....or I just did not see in the diagrams......

I made a mistake there. That driver side under floor carpet isn't so. I didn't realize the diagram I was looking at was backwards from how I was thinking. The one I was looking for is actually the 2 of them behind the glove box.

Are any vacuum tubes only open when the ignition is on?

If not, then I don't believe I have any leaks. Leak tested over and over and listened and felt for air and nothing.

On the ground connections.....look for the one over on the driver side.....up in there above the fuse panel.....

Sumary of Post:
Basically I've gotten no where after checking grounds behind glove box and re-doing them up though I've noticed a strange happening with one of the grounds at the battery (slimmest cable) which caused the van not to start.

Van still tries to kill at idle after fans with FPR vac line off (higher fuel pressure).

Details:
First off I regrounded the interior grounds behind the glove box. The metal they were above was all corroded and there was even a little piece of OEM super sticky tape between one of the connections though I don't think I really did anything here because the way these grounds are shaped (like they have teeth on the inner circle of the ground loop) they cannot sit flush on the metal which is why they appeared to be slightly raised. They were both already tight, but I sanded/scrubbed the connections and mount points anyway and taped over them so they hopefully don't rust again in the future.

Something odd happened today. I was putting things back together, after deciding against removing the new radiator fans cause of too much work, and there is the slimmest battery ground cable that runs to a black connector just in front of the battery area hanging above the radiator.

Well, I'd figured that the female end of the connector was grounded somewhere so I checked continuity and get nothing....... but sometimes when I check the female end (against the frame of the van in a spot I've designated and scrubbed to test with) I get a solid continuity of zero resistance 0.00. I tried jiggling the cable and it doesn't seem to do anything. So, I took the male end of the connector (from battery) and grounded it with a alligator cable from the battery.... then when I went in to start the van there was NOTHING on.... and the instrument panel lights were extremely dim and barely showing. No dome lights etc...

So, I figured well maybe I should reconnect that ground connector... and I did so and still I got nothing in the van excepting a constant CLICKING sound in the cabin that seemed like it wanted to come on, but couldn't.

I disconnected the ground connector again and reconnected it...nothing.

Finally not knowing what else to do I pulled the negative terminal off the battery (ground connector for slimmest battery ground cable connected) and put it back on..... got NOTHING...... then I moved/twisted the negative terminal and the hood light came on and so did the dome lights inside and the van would then start.

My question is though.... WTF was that? Why does that female end of the ground connector sometimes show good continuity and other times not even if I haven't even MOVED the wire at all??????

I have yet another thing to try and it will probably get me no where, but I'm starting to think about the PCM Relay. I wonder if its worn inside and intermittently works and doesn't work.... or gets stuck inside? Relays have flipping metal "doors" or switches inide right? If the PCM Relay were bad it would explain a number of things... but I wonder if it would explain bad MPG too?

I tried tonight for the 1st time to see if removing the vac line from the FPR and running the fans and then letting them turn off would produce the same near stall thing..... and it still does it. I know that when the vac line is off the FPR fuel pressure is like 36 - 38psi from recent previous tests, but I didn't have the fuel psi tester connnected this time as I just wanted to see if fuel pressure was the issue. I could take this as its NOT fuel related or I could see it like I still have a leaky injector that just flowed more fuel faster with the vac line off the FPR.

On the ground connections.....look for the one over on the driver side.....up in there above the fuse panel.....

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5908226#post5908226

Been delaying all night going back outside to fiddle with the van.

Big oops on the black ground connector mounted above the radiator near the battery.

According to diagram 10-12 Grounds in the Ford CD-ROM it shows a black wire going to a black/white stripe wire coming off the battery and this is the only one like that off the battery so I'm sure of what it is now.

What is it? lol - Looks like its the main ground to:

PCM, MAF, CMP, A/C high pressure fan cutout/fan switch, ICM, CCRM, and DLC = data link connector.

To me that makes it the most important GROUND in the whole van aside from the 2 other battery grounds.

I just find it odd that a ground this important would be in a connector (technically connector C135 is what its called), but maybe they thought that was better than exposed to the elements. I guess I could see if this connector is dirty in the female end, but half the time when I do this I end up removing some important dielectric paste or some shit cause I can't tell if its sludge, dirt, or the good paste stuff.

Van delivered back in shop and their parking lot was overflowing more than Wal-marts (exaggeration, but you get the point). My bet is on 1 or more leaky/faulty injectors.

Freebie tensioner install due to the fubbed alternator install to get rid of noise at alternator/belt/cam sensor area.

Freebie a/c clutch readjustment since its never been right since they did the a/c work.

The big one - Fix the horrible fuel economy which is now at just about 100 miles per half tank since new fuel pump installation. Fuel PSI is DOWN since new fuel pump install.

DRAWING THE LINES:
1. This is this trusted shop's last chance. I'm finally drawing lines. If they can't DIAGNOSE it (like their name: DIAGNOSTIC... ) then from now on they are only going to get simple things of obvious or just remove/replace nature.

2. If they don't fix this fuel/near stall issue (which I suspect will fix the near stall issue) I'll be bringing the van for 1 last shop visit out of town to a trusted shop I used to use when I lived 20 miles away. They never let me down and I never had to return to them for repeat work and they work on commercial and consumer stuff so they know their sh!t well.

3. IF THEY CAN'T EVEN FIX IT.....then I will be purchasing the usb/odbii connectors on Ebay and run some freebie OBDII software to log the van's computer data over time until something pops up at me. No more guessing.

If I knew of a scan tool that had a usb connection and allowed saving data logs I'd prefer that over a USB/OBDII connection to laptop, but I guess those things don't seem to exist.

Summary of post:
Shop ran vehicle on the computer and can't find anything wrong with it. Surprise Surprise.

Replaced PCM Power Relay after picking up van. No change in near stall behavior.

I'm gonna hold off on bringing it to my out of town trusted shop for a while.

Going to buy a hand vacuum pump and do a real vac leak test and if I find none I will buy injectors or rebuild the ones I have and install them.

Details:
I thought about my post above there about "Drawing the Lines" and right now I have 147 miles down and I'm almost 1/8 tank below the 1/2 tank line. Since the new fuel pump and/or higher performance coils the fuel consumption seems to have risen and fuel PSI is lower.

If I make an improvement in MPG at all I'm going to think that the higher performing coils need to go and I'll put OEM in there.

Here's what I'm thinking though.... by the time I'd run out all the gas in the tank I won't even be over 300 miles. The last time I had MPG this bad I had gas leaking out somewhere and coincidentally it was on a Ford Thunderbird. Gas is obviously leaking out somewhere and/or I must have a vacuum leak. The guys at the shop say a vac leak would've shown up on the computer system they hooked it to, but it didn't..... so that response means they didn't physically vac leak test it.

Knowing the injectors are all thats left I am probably going to replace them, but not before I do a proper vacuum leak test with a real hand vacuum pump. If I find no leak I'll replace the injectors and if that doesn't resolve my issue I may call Jasper and start a warranty claim stating very poor mileage and all the things that have been replaced, tested, etc..

Does anyone know the parts are sold to rebuild the injectors yourself?

I would not attempt to rebuild them myself.
The flow rate must be really close from injector to injector, or you will have more problems.
There are a couple of places that I have heard of that you can send your injectors in to have them cleaned and flow tested and matched so that all 6 are within very tight specifications of each other.
I would lean toward this instead of new fuel injectors.

On Rockauto, the Motorcraft injectors for the '95 3.8L Windstar are $57.79 each.
I would go this route with new ones rather then the cheap ones.....which is why I lean toward the method above.


There is a motor ballance test that one can do.
You connect a tachometer to get an accurate reading of the RPM (you need something better than the tach gauge in the dash....the Scangauge should be good enough)
You set your accellerator so that the motor is at a given RPM (near idle....not fast).
You unplug the electrical connection to the Idle Air Control (IAC) so that the PCM cannot adjust the RPM.
You record the RPM.
Then you unplug each fuel injector, record the RPM and plug it back in.
The RPM change for each fuel injector being unplugged should be really close for each of the 6 cylinders.

I have never done this test....but have been told about it.

Wiswind - Thats a very interesting test. I was working on coming up with a few of my own last night too. I'm gonna cap various vac lines as an alternate method of vac testing and see what happens.

FUEL filter - I'm going to replace the fuel filter again. Knowing my new fuel filter ran on the old gas tank for at least 2 fill ups and knowing how filthy it was I ran another fuel PSI test with Key flick. First turn comes up zero.... I dunno if this has anything to do with air in the tester at first or whatever.. but I always bleed the tester before turning the key so I dunno... 2nd key flick 10 psi.... 3rd key flick 20 psi.... 4th key flick 30 psi....

Operating PSI since I fixed the 2 PCV valves issue is now 29 psi, though the near stall is still there. :( But MPG should improve dramatically now I would think because the engine was starved of crankcase ventilation... it was in effect "negative crankcase ventilation".

Working here at the moment:
PCV valve and breather - http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5910510

Never ceases to amaze me.

My Battery was testing GOOD, but was BAD. "Yeah, what huh... how's that again?" I just got this big ass battery a little over a year ago when I was up North with my lazy ex.

Wal-Mart Auto is where I got it and so I brought it back there and they had a 40 minute testing machine that would tell if it would hold a charge and the end of the test said it wouldn't. Though on their handheld tester it tested GOOD. At AUTOZONE the roll out tester tested GOOD, but low charge.... thats where it all started... I couldn't start the van at Autozone as I was picking up a new fuel filter (AGAIN).

FUEL INJECTORS - I know everyone besides the 95 crowd has the IMRC... but assuming that isn't in the way and you are just looking at the intake manifold, can you get down below it well enough to test injector resistance and voltages? I am thinking that somewhere somehow with a bad cell battery, and likely the old alternator that caused it, that some coils or circuits must be messed up at the injectors or elsewhere.

MPG - I've yet to verify MPG cause today was a long ass day, but now that I have a solid battery, alternator, and crankcase air flow I want to see what kind of mileage I get on the road. Maybe I'll find out tomorrow on my BIRTHDAY !!!! Would've been great if my van would've let me fix it for my birthday.... but no dice.

In a dark and lonely place on the internet I read someone posted that the PCM in a 95 Windstar was holding certain injectors wide open at irregular times. I think it was injector #2 and #5 if i am not mistaken. I'm wondering now about the PCM having been programmed right and if this non-Ford engine computer has anything to do with whats going on.

Engine PCM (ECM) Calibration
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5911151#post5911151

Bad battery recently.. blown PCM in past... blown MAS (element wire snapped in half though to be electrical...... New alternator now which revealed bad battery... now what?

I cannot believe this, but the freaks over at my TRUSTED SHOP (which is now becoming the GOON-SHOP to me) replaced the alternator, but did not replace the regulator on the back. ..... and guess what I've determined is bad... THE REGULATOR. I have learned not to count my chickens before they're hatched, but this could very well be the mainmost part of the array of problems I've ironed out.

This would explain the blown PCM and blown MAF element wire (literally severed itself) and perhaps even the blown IAC from a year or so ago. I am just in awe that they left the old regulator on there. I mean am I alone here in thinking that after replacing a 160k old alternator that you'd want to replace the whole thing as STANDARD procedure????

This just keeps getting better and better. I literally will have built a new Windstar by the time i'm done.:crying::eek7:

Still focusing on the injectors too. Also thinking of getting a new fuel cap and I got a new tool yesterday to install the fuel filter.... hoping it makes it a lot easier this time.

Fuel pressure leak down rate: acceptable or not (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=941340)
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=941340

Interesting results came about yesterday as I was trying to get even more creative with testing. Before I found out about the voltage regulator being bad, I determined that I can get the van to repeat the "near stall" behavior by pumping the brake pedal 4+ times and then the near stall happens a few short seconds afterwards. If I push the window button up when the window is already up the cabin lights dim, if I have headlights and a/c on alt voltage drops to 13.8, when fans are going on/off with other stuff on I saw it go as low as 12.5 and back up to 14, its not going over 14 right now. When I saw the original voltage regulator on the new alt I was some pissed off.

I don't know what this means.... could just be that I gave the voltage regulator 1 less thing to regulate, but I unplugged the EVAP purge regulator valve harness connector and I swear I was in disbelief as the fans turned OFF and the engine didn't try to stall!!!! Though I think repeats of this test it may have tried to stall again. Until the new volt regulator is put in though, I cannot be sure of anything electrical that I test so if its still doing its crap I'll have to redo that test again after I install the new volt reg.

Having experienced this idle "change" issue on my other car....also when pumping the brake..... it made me think it had to be a leaky booster when in fact it was nothing to do with anything.... What I do know is it was caused by a vac leak at the Throttle Body pivoting plate.

Removed all vac lines at main junction as a "whole" and removed them all individually and tested each time only to be met with more frustration. No leaks, which is good... but at this point I'd settle for something easy.

More to come... I'm dead tired so I'm gonna go rest now.

Your "trusted" shop sounds not so trusted. Never heard of ANYONE installing a brand new alt that didn't come with a brand new volt reg and brushes already bolted on to it. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE who makes or sells one like that. Are you sure they ain't part swapping on you? No manufacturer even on drugs would not have a new reg/brush unit on their alt. It would give them bad product returns/warranty claims till the cows come home. It just doesn't make any sense for ANYBODY to do that, even your "trusted" mechanics. Maybe that are deliberately sabotaging their own work to get rid of you, hoping you go elsewhere. Reusing the old volt reg is just idiotic!?! It just doesn't make sense. Seems they are just handing you reasons to come back to complain for their shoddy work and parts. The battery could have shortened the life of your alt too. You could ask the shop for proof of the alt being brand new, but what you obviously want and should have gotten in the first place is a brand new and complete alt. It goes without saying if the alt has an internal reg., the reg is part of the alt and would therefor come with it if you just asked for an alternator.

The fuel fill cap you have should be good since you haven't mentioned having any codes, specifically for the EVAP system. There's a code for there being too high or too low pressure in the system as it is supposed to be sealed at a steady pressure. If after running the van and you open the fill with the engine off, like when you buy gas, there should be a slight audible whoosh like air moving sound, though it will be louder when very hot outside. However, if very loud when not cold would suggest something is clogged, like the in-tank valve. But heck, why not buy a new fill cap, what's one more thing to shake that bad voodoo you have. :)

Lacking tightness of the system could lead to excessive fuel usage that would be noticeable by a strong gas odor. If the smell is stronger under the hood, you should test the VMV. Check for battery voltage at the vapor purge reg valve electrical connector (disconnected) with the key on, engine off. No bat+ means the pcm needs to be checked.

An OBDII SCAN tool should be able to check for excess pressure and other possible component problems in the EVAP to see if the EVAP is keeping the pressure down where it belongs.

Things that may cause too high pressure are:

The charcoal canister needs to be airtight. Remove the close-off line near the canister and install a hand pressure pump to 2.5 psi confirming only the pressure vents through the close-off line.
Then install the pump directly at the canister with 2.5psi. It should hold the pressure.

The in-tank evaporative emission valve may be plugged. It needs to be able to get to to outside air (pressure).

The hoses and lines in the EVAP system to the canister, tank, vapor management valve, etc., and the canister inlet port can't be plugged, kinked, pinched, etc.

I know I said the EVAP system would have codes if something is wrong with it, but thinking about the stall not occurring with the EVAP purge regulator valve harness disconnected suggests to me either the electrical signal isn't getting to the reg valve, or the valve is no good. Possibly the pressure sensor in the gas tank is not operating right, thereby confusing the PCM not to send the correct signal to the purge valve. Some more food for thought from my Haynes. "Poor idle, stalling and poor driveability can be caused by an inoperative vapor managment valve, a damaged vapor canister, split or cracked hoses or hoses connected to the wrong ports.

Well....your engine is STILL a FORD engine......just remanufactured by someone else.
This should not have any effect on the PCM.

As far as the voltage regulator.....I don't know how a alternator could be replaced without a new one.....as it is part of the alternator assembly.
HOWEVER, I can certainly see how a defective battery can cause it to fail.
I installed a Motorcraft alternator on my Windstar......a month later it failed.....actually melted the alluminum case.
So.....it is possible to get a dud replacement part.

A defective battery can also impact fuel economy as it is a additional load on the motor.

I don't know about ya'lls alternators, but on mine the regulator is external on the back side of the alternator. Still, it does not make sense to me that they wouldn't have included it.

I'll be working on the van either later today or tomorrow.

Very confused now because this is the one they put in:
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=RAY&PartNumber=2133110F&Description=Alternator+-+Remfd+-+Standard

Comes 100% new with new regulator and rectifier... but what is puzzling is that the regulator is clearly on the OUTSIDE. I'll have to check my CD-ROM and verify.

CONFIRMED: Regulator is on outside. That Napa link has to be a misprint.

Yes, just about all of the alts since I don't know when have an integral regulator bolted to it, typically on the back side for ease of access, as is on our Windstar. It's that way on my Taurii as they use the same alt unit with possible slight electrical/orientation modifications. Umm, the distinction I'm familiar with, and I'm pretty confident I'm right on this though I could be wrong, is an "externally" mounted voltage regulator is mounted external TO the alternator, ie. it is mounted somewhere else in the engine compartment, but not externally mounted ON the alternator. The old style alts were built without the voltage regulator, thus the distinction of internal vs. external. That's just how they were made years ago, and probably for a couple of reasons. First, they were with old tech electronics that were more failure prone so needed to be more easily and frequently replaced. Remote placement kept it cooler to extend its life. And, probably it was easier to make the alt without the volt reg as part of it. Now, they are able to work around those issues with new tech, etc., and one of the manufacturers came up with the nice setup as you see on the Ford alt. The style we have has the volt reg, rectifier and brushes all in one mounted IN (not on) the back of the alt. That's a whole new design that makes the highest failure part of the charging system very simple to repair. Rather than trying to figure out which subcomponent has failed, you replace the whole thing. The typical Delco Remy design also has an internal reg, but they weren't smart enough to make it so easily accessible by burying it inside the two halves of the alt case. I think only the brushes are externally accessible. If you pull it out of the back of the Ford alt, you'll also see why it qualifies as an internal regulator. It really is in the alt. Not to beat this to death too much, I think you'd not call it an external reg if there was a cover over it. Some have that, but Ford decided to skip it and make it cover, reg and all in one. You can also note that it is installed flush to the back of the alt. Needless to say, they have switched alt designs on the 1999 and up to our great expense of an entire alternator when something goes bad with it as the reg and even the friggn' brushes are SEALED inside it!?! RRRrrrrrrr!!!

Does what I wrote above constitute to ya'll as a bad voltage regulator?

To ME... there are dirty scrape marks on the regulator which is how I have evaluated it to be the OLD one cause I just don't think the new one would be dirty at all.... but what if I'm wrong... what if the tech just had dirty hands that dirtied up the edges of the new regulator? lol - Either way does this behavior constitute a regulator not working right?

"If I push the window button up when the window is already up, the cabin lights dim, if I have headlights and a/c on alt voltage drops to 13.8, when fans are going on/off with other stuff on I saw it go as low as 12.5 and back up to 14, its not going over 14 right now. When I saw the original voltage regulator on the new alt I was some pissed off."

And basically when accessories are on (headlights, a/c, etc..) and the fans cycle on/off and the a/c clutch cycles on/off the voltage slips to the lower 13's and as low as 12.5 at various times. Assuming all connections are good (which ya'll know I've thoroughly done over at this point) isn't this behavior of a bad voltage regulator?

A bad voltage regulator will usually cause the low-load voltage to be either too high or too low. If the low load voltage goes much higher than about 13.8-14 volts when revving the engine while under hood temperature is warm, the voltage regulator is most likely bad. This is assuming a good, fully charged battery. The normal voltage at low load is about 13.2 for a very hot underhood temperature, to a little over 14 volts for a cold temp. At bitterly cold temps the voltage may be near 15 volts but should drop as the temps go up. When putting a load on, such as the windows, which draw high amperage, it is normal to see lights dimming since there will be voltage drops along the wiring, even though the battery voltage will show less of a drop. Your alternator should maintain normal voltage range when running the heater and radiator fans, etc. If the voltage drops too low when "normal" high loads such as I just described are applied, and the engine is revved a little, then the alternator itself is likely bad, not the voltage regulator. Needless to say, proper checking can be tricky. Most alternators fail because of long term high heat in the rectifiers and subsequent failure of the rectifiers. Usually they go open, cutting out at least one of the three phases supplied from the alternator stator windings. Once that happens, the additional load on the remaining rectifiers will cause them to fail soon after. Often that will cause noises to come from the alternator. There are testers that can tell this by the amount of "ripple" in the current from the alternator. When even one of the six rectifiers goes bad, there will be a great increase in ripple and that is how the testers "know" that an alternator is bad, regardless of it's output current and voltage. I suppose that if someone connected a small speaker in series with a capacitor and connected this combo across the battery, the ripple squeal would be much more noticeable on a bad alternator than from a good one. I've never actually tried that but it seems as though it would work. Without the capacitor in the circuit the speaker would be destroyed in seconds after touching the battery terminals.

Phil

Well, ya'll are gonna love what happened today (yesterday now as I wrote this post yesterday). Turns out a long time ago in this thread when I said I didn't think my problem was electrical and instead fuel that I was probably right....... OR that it may be both. I am not sure by Phil's response if my regulator is bad, but I do know from looking at it its the original one on a new alternator and I'd feel better with a new one on the new alt.

Went to start the engine today to take my sister to get her first Learner's License and was going to pickup my voltage regulator and I've been letting the van sit for 4 or 5 days since I put in a can of B-12 chemtool to about 12.5 gallons.

I start it up and the engine is struggling to stay running and shaking the van all over. Stepped out of the vehicle, raised hood..... SMELL GAS... GAS GAS GAS....Gas spitting out of the engine where the exhaust manifold meets the exhaust downpipe... definitely 1 or more leaky injectors on the front bank as I have been suspecting. Now that I've taken a leak down time for the OLD injectors I can leak down time it when I put in the new ones and have a baseline to go from in the future.

The amount of gas coming out was quite a bit compared to supposed to having NONE... it was enough to make a 3-4 inch diameter puddle. This also makes me wonder.... or believe now that I also had an exhaust leak where the manifold meets the downpipe... otherwise I wouldn't have seen gas coming out right? And how could I see gas coming out if it wasn't pretty full in there from sitting 4 days? What ya'll think?

I imagine this problem finally revealed itself after everything else in the fuel system being new and putting "NEW PRODUCT - LOW USE" higher fuel pressure on the injectors......combined with putting some fuel additive in there and wa-la.... the leaky injector(s) got worse and revealed itself.

FUEL coming out of the exhaust manifold where it meets the exhaust pipe is a bit concerning. Makes me think my "used to be trusted shop" did not tighten the pipe enough.

"Trusted shop" downgraded to "GOONIE BIRD MONKEY Hybrids with wrenches".

I am ordering injectors tonight and of course for all this trouble I will replace them all.

I also plan to have quite a talk with my shop (who still has my 3000GT in their repair bay too) and ask them if they are trying to get rid of me. I really don't know what else to think unless they've really been this fucking stupid. Though I went to another shop too and they didn't catch it either.... nowadays it just seems like if the computer isn't telling them some code they turn off their brains. I really cannot stand it..... it infuriates me to no end..... and now I see what my Dad went through around this town when we were growing up.... literally NO ONE could fix anything that required a level of analysis at all... even after like 7 or more visits. The end result would be Dad would go out to buy a newer used car.

Think about it.... when i PULLED the EVAP harness connector the van didn't try to stall that 1 time its probably because there was higher fuel psi and stability to run the engine through the fans cycling off, but subsequent times it just didn't work out maybe cause the PCM learned from that 1 instance where the EVAP was out of the loop and then the same problem came back again.

Hopefully the injectors will be here tomorrow cause I got some really fudged up stuff going on at the home front right now.

Thinking I was sent the wrong injectors. Part#'s do not match, but I think they are the bigger ones for 96-97 and possibly... and UP.

Question becomes: Using bigger injectors on stock setup that requires less lbs/hr injector fuel flow rate will I have a negative performance or mpg effect?

Injector part number comparison: 95 3.8L vs all other Windstar Years 3.8L

1995 3.8L
DELPHI Part # FP10049
MOTORCRAFT Part # CM4760

1996 3.8L
DELPHI Part # FP10049
MOTORCRAFT Part # CM4766

Fuel injector flow rates
1995 Windstar 3.8L 15 lbs./hr - 155hp - 170cc per min
1996-98 Windstar 3.8L 21 lbs./hr - 200hp - 218-220cc per min

Old OEM Ford number: F1ZE-9F593-B4C - Short number on injector: F1ZE-B4C
New OEM Ford Number: F1ZZ 9F593 B - Probably new short number on injector: F1ZZ-B

Its interesting to me that Delphi got it wrong, but I'll trust Ford/Motorcraft before I will them. All other web sites (except the injector remanufacturers sites) confirm that these injectors from 95 and all other year Windstars of 3.8L variety are different. Try convincing an injector remanufacturer of that when their web site says otherwise. Thats when you just use the part number on the injector like I ultimately had to.

I confirmed too that later year 3.8L Windstars injector part numbers vary from the 95.

95 owners beware. If you buy new injectors from a remanufacturer you will likely not get the right ones. Ensure part number match before ordering. I was able to peak at my part number at the right front side of the intake plenum near the FPR to verify the right #.

So now the joy continues. I have friends coming in tomorrow for Mardi Gras and we were supposed to use the "PARTY BUS" for all of that and now I can't.

I know Wiswind advises against remanned injectors, but the ones I found come with a 2 year warranty like new ones do and if pressure holds as it should and MPG improves as it should I'll be a happy camper... and of course after this long saga full of Southern VooDoo I need to try to save some cash. Just re-ordered new remanned ones from a different site than before: injectorwhse.com - The ones I got before were from precisionautoinjectors.com and now the guy won't contact me to return them, but thats odd cause he was very accommodating by refunding my shipping without me even asking on the 1st order. He did that cause I ordered Express Mail and he didn't ship it till later.

Where am I getting the patience? I mean its just absolutely amazing.... all i wanted was 1 thing.. a set of injectors and its listed EVERYWHERE incorrectly by every injector remanufacturer. Sure i could go to Ford and/or Autozone or the likes and spend $60 or more for new injectors, but honestly I feel remanned ones are the same and I've saved about $100 .... assuming the 1st guy refunds my money.

Oh Joy.... Oh Joy.... Oh wonderful Joy joy joy.:shakehead:runaround::crying:

Remanufactured injectors should be fine.....I try to have everything matched up.....maybe different manufactures are consistant with the OEM.....but I like to have them all the same....just to be sure.
I do advise folks to make sure that the injector needs replacing....not just dirty like I have had happen a number of times on my windstar.

You can also look the injector up on www.motorcraft.com
I came up with CM4705 on there and on RockAuto for the 1995 3.8L

Yer a bad ass. :)

Wiswind, how do you know you have a dirty injector vs. one that isn't working right? I believe I have a bad one that is not injecting a mist but dribbling too much gas into the cylinder causing a flooding condition, a dead cylinder and gas out the exhaust manifold and the tailpipe. It's kind of too late to use fuel injector cleaner at this point for that one but I'll put some in to keep the others clean. Oh, BTW, the pintle cap on the injector was not dirty or anything that would block the spray, but the new one by GP Sorenson doesn't look anything like the original. A mechanic friend of mine says the new style is a much better design that doesn't have the problems of the old one like in the pintle area.

Status: Intake manifold all apart. Old Injectors loosened and ready for pulling later today after I sleep a bit. Its a serious bitch to get all that stuff out, and I left as much stuff connected as I could pulling the plenum attached to the throttle body attached to the air pipe all in one assembly. Was tricky getting it out like that, but my sister and I managed to do it. Promptly afterwards I taped up the intake so nothing would drop in there and since its been sitting I taped up everything else that shouldn't be exposed to elements either, including the connectors, vac lines, etc..

I will be changing the oil too, cause I'm told there is probably gas in it.

I will be replacing both upstream O2 sensors and while I've confirmed a long long time ago that these are not a or the problem my shop told me they were slow.

I will replace the voltage regulator that I believe to be old.

Finally, I'll replace the fuel filter if I can manage to get the damn thing off with a new tool I found at O'reilly's. I'm not sure about this yet as I would like to see the fuel pressure at first key flick after installing the new injectors. If it doesn't come up above 30psi then I'll replace the filter for sure cause it had a few runs in the old filthy gas tank before it was cleaned.

Finally received my USB to OBD/CAN connector today.... direct from Hong Kong. Took 3 weeks. I just hope I can actually use it with the free internet software.

I would've had all this done by now, but MARDI GRAS has been priority. hehe - Had a lot of fun. Too bad its over.

I think this is a very interesting indirect find that when there are issues with the rad fans cutting on or off and then engine sputtering, that our Windstars are likely to have an injector (and/or fuel delivery) problem.

The CCRM adjusts fuel flow rate (I'm sure of it) when the fans kick on or off. It must be in this minute fuel delivery change at idle that the bad injector is no longer able to handle subtle fuel delivery changes for either being stuck open or closed or just stuck not moving in either direction leaving "whatever" amount of orifice open at the spray end to cause problems.

I never in my life would've thought a fuel injector would be the fix for this problem, especially with NO CODE from the computer. I am 95% certain this is the fix for my problem in this big ole thread and I'll know for sure tomorrow when the new injectors get put in.

Working here now:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5923959#post5923959

Got the laptop outside.

Status:
Injector 4: Cap broken off into intake; hopefully fell off in previous original or 2nd defective reman engine; This means the spray pattern was not right for this injector.

Injector 5: Faulty; stuck; leaking; gas was coming out of the tip of it. How could my van have passed the computer tests if this was the case, let alone for Injector 4 too. End cap severed at base yet still hanging on.

Injector 6: End cap severed at base yet still hanging on.

Injector 3: End cap severed at base yet still hanging on.

BIG BIG FIND: AUTOMOTIVE 101 - Don't cross the plug wires to the coils. Spark plug wires #5 and #6 were crossed. Therefore big MPG and other idle etc.. problems. This has been this way since the original engine.

Ghostbusters: "Crossing the streams is bad."

more later...

Well, all the lil bitty things that I've found add up to a nice cup of bullshit.:headshake

The injectors with the "End cap severed at base yet still hanging on." - I would imagine would have a modified improper spray pattern, especially the one missing the cap altogether. The leaky injector #5 was my obvious fuel pressure and gas leak problem.

The 2 PVC's instead of a breather and a pvc.

The backwards synchro.

The criss-crossed spark plug wires (5 & 6).

Plugged fuel filters.

Dirty gas tank. Filthy naughty dirty.

Bad battery (after buying new) due to bad voltage regulator.

UGGG....... WHAT ELSE AM I GOING TO FIND THAT THESE PEOPLE I'VE PAID THOUSANDS TO, HAVE MESSED UP.

Status: All injectors off. Waiting for mosquitoes to subside before I go back outside. Entire engine compartment taped off where anything thats usually not supposed to be exposed is. Fun fun.

"Waiting for mosquitoes to subside".....I have to do a double take when I read that......not an issue on a February evening in Wisconsin.

I would think that your motor would run rough with wires 5&6 crossed.......
Now 5&1 or 6&2 crossed, would not matter as they are on the same coils......and fire together anyhow.

"Waiting for mosquitoes to subside".....I have to do a double take when I read that......not an issue on a February evening in Wisconsin.

I would think that your motor would run rough with wires 5&6 crossed.......
Now 5&1 or 6&2 crossed, would not matter as they are on the same coils......and fire together anyhow.

Try the absolute opposite side of the USA... hot humid sub-tropical masquerading as tropical, scum bucket South Eastern Louisiana.

Yes, mosquitoes here are a big problem. If you hear of West Nile Virus, more than likely its being circulated here. I could only pray for decent cool weather here.

5 & 6 - Yeah, this pretty much means the firing sequence has always been OFF beat. If I don't see MPG improvements and the IDLE thing gone after all this stuff I'm gonna sh!t a cow.

At first when I discovered this I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me. Then I thought - well I replaced the coils.... Did I hook it back right? - and after thinking about it I know I put the wires back exactly how they were before. I was very careful to make sure I did put them back on the same coil plugs, but what I didn't know was I was putting them back in the wrong sequence. I can see why the tech made this mistake cause the wires swap places in how they are run to the coils and you couldn't see well without pulling the wires up over the oil cap. I even had my sister trace it to make sure I wasn't going crazy. lol

Status:
Very pissed about what else I found today. I know this is the shops fault too. Who in their right mind would route the main PCM wiring harness between the hot egr intake/exhaust pipe (driver side) and the rear (right engine) valve cover? On my 95, there is about 1" .. maybe 1.5" of space between those. Both get very very hot as we all know and the egr pipe hotter than hell. I had been noticing before that the main harness plastic protector holder, that routes right behind the rear fuel rail, had the little flaps in the upward unsecured position.

I was never able to see what the deal was till the intake plenum was off, but the flaps of the harness protector atop the engine could never go down because it just wasn't put back together properly. ALL of the bottom side of the main PCM wiring harness for about 4 inches is cinged/melted very badly. Most of the wires in the PCM wiring harness have merged together as a chunk of melted plastic and wire sheaths. Fearing what would happen if I tried to pick it all apart, I stopped after picking 1 wire ever so slowly with a screwdriver end and the wire sheath just peeled off.

Since I have no odd electrical behavior (I think) and think that the injectors and swapped ignition wires are going to resolve my issue, I'm betting that the metal core of the wires are not touching each other, but merely their outer coatings are merged. I put some liquid rubber all over the cinged area and puddied it back good. Then I wrapped some serious layers of electrical tape several times around it all.

After having to unplug everything (some stuff really hard to reach) I spent probably about 4-5 hours on just repairing the harness, getting it out of the wrong position, repositioning it, and stretching ma big azz to plug everything back in. Now its routed correctly, past the egr pipe (to the right of it) and away from the valve cover.

All I wanted to do today (yesterday now) was test the injectors before reassembling and then reassemble... only to find 1 more thing that some knuckleheads did wrong.

The sad sad sad thing about this is that if my injectors and spark wires in the right positions don't resolve my problem I can only assume that 1 or more of the wires where the main harness melted have to be touching and arcing out.

Status:
Bad news. Did the pressure hold test before reassembling. Purged air out the fuel pressure tester relief valve. After that if I leave the key turned to ON to where the dash is lit we hear a constant stream of fuel being spraying into the head. Ironically its the rear bank (we think) and the leaky one was in front on cylinder 5. Time to wip out the multimeter and check the voltage and continuity of the wiring. Cowl will finally have to come off cause I gotta test at the PCM.

Not sure what to do. Repair the main PCM harness or get a new/used one. I imagine new they are quite expensive.

Am I correct to think that pressure should be "holding" and not "squirting constantly" before starting the engine right (KOEO)?

Would it matter (doing the test above in this post) if the IAC, TPS, EGR, are all unplugged and just the battery and injectors plugged?

I comment cautiously because I don't know much about fuel systems ... especially on your year model: And I have never "heard" fuel flow through the fuel rail ... (may have something to do with having very old ears.) There should be no fuel flow out of the fuel rail into the head unless an injector is opening (... or "firing"). Normally an injector only fires for a brief fraction of a second for each two crankshaft revolutions. Do you have any observations, other than hearing, that fuel is flowing into the head? ... flooded cyls perhaps ... wet plugs?

I think you are right to be concerned about the possible damaged harness. I have a test that has never failed me: The harness is unplugged on both ends and brought to a bench. With a ohmmeter, each pin-to-pin continuity is verified ... and keeping in mind that one pin, at on end, should only connect to one pin at the other ... not two.. not three... This simple procedure has helped often.

I just read the alldatadiy description......and they don't mention any fuel squirting with the key sitting in the ON position with the motor not running.

I can understand a small squirt at the beginning.....don't know if that happens or not....but certainly not a constant flow.........and I think that they may have done this with throttle body fuel injection....1 fuel injector for the whole motor (my '81 Plymouth Horizon had that).....with throttle body fuel injection, there was a distance to travel between the throttle body.....and the individual cylinders.....so maybe a need to "prime" for easier starting.
Sounds primative....but that little thing pulled a easy 47mpg......
(Read that Smart Car......at 1/2 the size.)

If there would be a constant flow......you would notice a problem when you go to start the engine......
With the concerns about getting raw fuel into the catalytic converter......I would be surprised if there should be ANY flow without the engine turning over.
Added to this is the fact that the fuel injector is spraying right at the intake valve....so there is little delay in drawing fuel into the cylinder when cranking the engine.

There is a check valve in the fuel pump assembly that maintains fuel pressure when the fuel pump is not running.

When you turn the key to the RUN position.....but don't start the engine....you will hear the fuel pump come on and run for a second or so....then turn OFF.

The fuel pressure regulator will maintain the fuel pressure so that the pressure across the fuel injector is constant........from input to output......the output being in the vaccum of the intake manifold.
As the manifold pressure increases (low load), the fuel pressure regulator will reduce the fuel pressure in the fuel rail.....to compensate for the increased vaccum in the intake manifold.....maintaining a near constant pressure drop through the fuel injector.

In the 2 hose system (our older windstars have this).....the fuel pressure regulator opens at the desired pressure, and lets the excess fuel flow back to the tank.
So the pressure regulator provides just enough back pressure to maintain the desired fuel pressure.

A new fuel injector wiring harness for 1995 3.8L lists for $52.43 and sells for $36.18 at Y2KFORD in Seattle.
The 3.0L version is not so cheap.....list of $1048.57....their price $723.51
For the price...for your 3.8L version...plus shipping....from how you describe your harness.....I would just replace it.

When measuring voltages......when you turn the key ON.....you will have + battery voltage supplied to the injectors, the RED wire......through fuse 'S' 30amp in the power distribution box......then through the contacts of the PCM power relay.
The PCM relay coil is energized through fuse '20' 25amp in the I/P fuse panel.....and grounded through the CCRM.

The PCM provides a momentary ground to the injector to energize it.
So....sitting in the driveway with the key ON, motor NOT running, you should measure the +12V at both electrical connections on the injector relative to GROUND....as the PCM should be not providing a ground at that time.

Y2KFORD also lists the injectors for the '95 at suggested list of $86.23 with their price at $49.61

Thanks ya'll!

47 mpg would be great Wiswind. :) What an early performer that car was huh? lol

The harness that melted together isn't just the injector wiring harness (EDIT: misspoke here; its not the injector wiring harness at all; its the main PCM wiring harness on the MALE end connector side over from the main fuel injector harness connection where the PCM harness and injectors harness meet). It is the main PCM harness that goes off the right side of the valve cover with a huge square-ish connector with a bolt in the middle of it that looks like it routes to the driver instrument panel. If i follow it to the left it goes atop-center of the engine over left of the pulleys to the PCM. I'm talking about like I dunno.... maybe 20-30 wires to various things (including the injectors) that melted/merged together. Basically I figure this is just the main wiring harness. I would probably need to repair it or order a new one cause I have no idea what wires to what devices may be arcing.

The spray of fuel we hear with KOEO is definitely constant. Thank ya'll for confirming for me thats not right.

Startup problems - perhaps running as long as I have with 1 leaky and 3 other broken spray end cap injectors actually for some odd reason kept me from having startup problems. I bet if I put it all back together as is now that I'd have startup problems for sure. Maybe its since I moved the wiring harness and disturbed something that its acting up like this and wasn't before, but I find that hard to believe.

Spark plug 5 was pretty black due to the leaky injector there (cleaned it since its still so new). I haven't pulled the other ones to check because the other injectors didn't seem to be leaking.

Pressure can't be maintained if there is an opening in the fuel system regardless of the fuel pump check valve. There is no question that at least one of the injectors in the rear bank is squirting constantly with KOEO.

From what I read elsewhere and what you guys say I shouldn't see ANY voltage at all at the fuel injector harness connector with KOEO and pressure should just hold and if it doesn't then 1 or more of the injectors must be getting voltage when it shouldn't be or that new injector may be bad..... which I seriously doubt, but hey I can't rule it out till I confirm whats going on.

This kinda makes sense to me because on my original engine I had a misfire on cylinder 2 i think (it was rear bank for sure) and the rear cat glowed red after I got home from being stuck in MS when the original engine overheated. Now a burned through spark wire was found in that case, but this problem could've been contributing to it too. Not to mention another thing... maybe I wasn't (prior to this injector project) having starting problems cause everything else is so new in the engine bay. lol

I spent some time tonight looking up injector data and basically it doesn't appear that you test them for voltage, but that their resistance lowers the battery 12v voltage when its applied. I did some fiddling around with online calculators and it looks like the amount of voltage passing through my injectors at hot idle would be around .0057v to .0060v.

Therefore.... someone remind me again of what the injector resistance should be. lol - I've been researching for hours. I know I had to have obtained that information somewhere on here already.

My old fuel injectors Ohm out as:

EDITED: to remove the k behind the numbers

14.7 ohms injector 4 -----front bank
14.5 ohms injector 5 -----front bank
14.5 ohms injector 6 -----front bank

14.5 ohms injector 1 -----rear bank
14.4 ohms injector 2 -----rear bank
14.3 ohms injector 3 -----rear bank

Does this tell me anything at all?

From what I read elsewhere and what you guys say I shouldn't see ANY voltage at all at the fuel injector harness connector with KOEO...

If you're measuring voltage directly across an injector pair - the red wire and the non-red wire - then that's correct, but as Wiswind said, you should read 12V on both wires when the meter's common (black) lead is connected to a known good ground elsewhere in the engine bay.

... pressure should just hold and if it doesn't then 1 or more of the injectors must be getting voltage when it shouldn't be or that new injector may be bad

No, that isn't the way that it works. Each injector's red wire is intended to always have 12V available (with the ignition switch in the Start or Run position), so if an injector was being held open due to an electrical fault, the fault would be on the ground side of the circuit, and it would indicate that the non-red wire had a permanent short to ground, instead of just being switched to ground briefly by the PCM. Or it could indeed be a bad injector.

I spent some time tonight looking up injector data and basically it doesn't appear that you test them for voltage, but that their resistance lowers the battery 12v voltage when its applied.
That's a pretty dodgy test and I'd just ignore it. It's a primitive way to indicate continuity through the injector's solenoid coil, but it's much better to measure that with a multimeter on the resistance range.

Speaking of resistance, your readings for the old injectors don't seem right - if that's around 14.5 ohms each then that sounds ok, but I wouldn't have been expecting kilohms.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're seeing anomalies in the injectors at the moment though, because the TPS is unplugged. The PCM uses inputs from several sources to determine the duration of the injector pulses, and the input from the TPS will be one of the more significant inputs, so if that's missing then it won't be too surprising if the injectors aren't behaving in the way you would expect, so I don't think that you necessarily have a new fault condition.

Injector coil resistance will be 11 to 18 ohms....from the chart for 1996 that I am reading.
So your resistance is fine.

Things are looking up....we are off page 13.....so the jinx should be off.

I am betting that if the injector is leaking....that it would be some dirt on the valve seat.
One thing that you can do is put another injector into the leaking location......if a known good injector is leaking there....then you may have an issue.

I have had a LOT of trouble with misfire from dirty injectors, as I have mentioned before.
When an injector is not spraying due to dirt......the PCM is trying to compensate.....and everything is OFF......

I want to stop and thank Wiswind and 12Ounce and everyone else (tripletdaddy of course too) yet again. I really feel better with you all along this horrible journey of mine.

Hey Selectron. Thanks for coming back.

You were right about the "K" for ohms. I just edited my post. I had the digital multimeter set to K with ohm symbol, but the display only showed ohm symbol without the K when I tested again just now.

Injector Harnesses Test
I tested all 6 injector harnesses just now and made sure the black wire of my meter went to the ground wire of the 2 wire injector harnesses and the other probe (red) went to the VPWR wire of the injector harnesses.

Key On Engine OFF - Results are as follows:

EDITED: mV is correct; NOT "v" as was before. Also, since I remember from my photographic memory the location of the injectors that were measuring 11.8 I know it was 2 & 3 and not 5 & 6 since I keep confusing which bank is which.

5.43 mV Injector 4 -----front bank
5.50 mV Injector 5 -----front bank
5.48 mV Injector 6 -----front bank

5.59 mV Injector 1 -----rear bank
11.8 mV Injector 2 -----rear bank
11.8 mV Injector 3 -----rear bank

I forgot to test from the VPWR wire to a vehicle ground. Those tests were strictly from injector wire to injector wire using the injector harnesses only.

What do ya'll take from that?

What I take from it is that I have a short to ground on Injector 2 & 3 which makes sense since this is where I hear the constant squirting coming from with K.O.E.O., but what confuses me is that I have voltage AT ALL on any of the injector harnesses while the engine is OFF (yet key ON) and/or not CRANKING. I thought I shouldn't even see those 5.5mV readings??

Guess I need to test from VPWR wire on injector harnesses to ground too. I'll do that in a lil while.

Selectron - I found some reference values in my Ford CD-ROM (for the injectors) and they were in units of measure mS (millisiemens). The values were stated for KOEO, Hot Idle, 30mph, and 55mph. They are:

KOEO: 0 mS
Hot Idle: 5.7mS - 6mS
30 mph: 4.9mS - 7.9mS
55 mph: 6.8mS - 11.7mS

I used this conversion calculator: http://www.unitconversion.org/electric-conductance/millisiemens-to-amperes-per-volt-conversion.html to convert mS to likely probable voltage that the injectors should be seeing. The problem is I don't know if this would be an accurate method for determining the right voltage for my application (the Windstar engine). Is that an accurate way to determine voltage from mS or no?

For voltages calculated/found using the mS values above, I came up with:

KOEO: 0mV
Hot Idle: .0057mV - .0060mV
30 mph: .0049mV - .0079mV
55 mph: .0068mV - .00117mV

So if I'm figuring all this stuff out right (for the first time ever) as I read that the injectors don't even require a whole VOLT to run the engine at hot idle?????

I would NOT use the non-red lead at the injector to check voltage at the RED wire.....use a known good ground.

If you still see a super low voltage at the red wire on several of the injectors......measure again at the injector plug of the wire harness.....with the injector UNPLUGGED....
In other words.......secure the black lead to a known good ground.....unplug the connector from the injector and check the red lead.
If it is low with the injector plugged in.....and high with the injector unplugged.....then it is somehow being turned on.
If it is low with the injector plugged in AND unplugged.....you have a voltage supply problem.

Now.....you mentioned that the injector wiring harness was melted?.....For the cost (just over $36 plus shipping) I would replace it.
It is more likely that the harness melt is a problem than the PCM......not certain.....but it is a known issue......and (my favorite) it is cheaper.

With the motor running? You cannot rely on a meter reading at that point as the injectors are being pulsed.....so it would be a Oscilloscope viewed waveform.
If you have a leaker with the engine not running.....then there is no need to worry about looking at the run pulses.

Hopefully there is not a short to ground in the wiring harness for any of the injectors. If so, such injector is most likely TOAST!. As we know, they are only meant to be pulsed on for a few milliseconds at a time and if a continuous current flows through them the coils will certainly overheat and possibly cause the pintle to be jammed open.

Phil

Hopefully there is not a short to ground in the wiring harness for any of the injectors. If so, such injector is most likely TOAST!. As we know, they are only meant to be pulsed on for a few milliseconds at a time and if a continuous current flows through them the coils will certainly overheat and possibly cause the pintle to be jammed open.

Phil

What if i only tested it with the KOEO a couple times less than like 30 seconds outside in the cold? I just wanna know if by testing them (2 & 3) for that short a period if I may have blown my new ones.

The new ones have not run in a running engine yet and my TPS and IAC are still unplugged as the rest of the intake is still off the top.

I'm going to continuity test the injector harness while its disconnected from the PCM harness.

I'm also gonna pull the cowl and continuity test the injector harness while plugged in to the PCM harness (PCM end) from the injector harness main connector site to the PCM as well as from the injectors to the PCM itself.

From what I see I think i'm going to find the injector harness itself is in good shape, but that the PCM harness (the one that is partially melted) is the problem.

I mean, isn't it obvious with injector 2 & 3 showing 11.8mV at KOEO that 2 & 3 are shorted to ground? Or is that not good enough to be concrete about it?

Injector coil resistance will be 11 to 18 ohms....from the chart for 1996 that I am reading.
So your resistance is fine.

Things are looking up....we are off page 13.....so the jinx should be off.

I am betting that if the injector is leaking....that it would be some dirt on the valve seat.
One thing that you can do is put another injector into the leaking location......if a known good injector is leaking there....then you may have an issue.

I have had a LOT of trouble with misfire from dirty injectors, as I have mentioned before.
When an injector is not spraying due to dirt......the PCM is trying to compensate.....and everything is OFF......

I don't know if I said it or not, but what I'm doing now is with newly installed injectors within the past few days. Intake is still off along with the IAC and TPS out of the loop. I only posted info on the OLD injectors for reference. So no dirt on the new injectors.

My OLD injectors are no longer installed. This constant squirting of fuel at KOEO is with the NEW injectors and I believe this was happening with the old ones too because I have always (since new engine install) noticed a little bit more than usual amount of white smoke out the tail pipe in the morning or after it sat for a while.

I guess things are looking up. lol - Its hard for me to be positive right now because I'm scared I'm going to find something else wrong that the shop did.

I have my settings displaying 20 posts per page so on my view here of the forum we're on page 11. lol - Maybe when MY view is past page 13 the jinx will go away.

Yeah, I thought about swapping out injectors to see if the squirting still happens in the same position, but I really don't think I need to since I know I have new injectors and I've so far seen voltages of near 12v at KOEO on inj 5 and inj 6. I'm about to post some other test results too.

I have to apologize to ya'll. A lot (or most) of these posts come in during the weee weee weeee hours of the morning... late late late... and I think I've screwed up a few details. I'm gonna go back over the last 2 pages of posts and make sure I got things right (mostly for test results). For some reason even though I've marked things well in the engine I cannot seem to absorb that the 1,2,3 cylinders are in the back and 4,5,6 in the front.

I think I kept saying 5 & 6 were the ones with the higher voltages, but at the same time I said they were in the rear bank... which is incorrect. I distinctly remember testing those near 12v results in the rear most right two (closest to driver wheel) cylinders which are 1 & 2.

I realized I'd made this mistake tonight when I went out in the cold to test some more stuff. So I'm gonna go EDIT a couple things and then post some new test results too. My new test results are confusing me even more.

I'm starting to wonder if shoving paper clips in and out of the connectors has cleaned off the connector surfaces thus changing the test results..... OR handling the harnesses and bending/twisting/jiggling them etc... may have changed the results cause I did the same voltage tests tonight (in addition to others) and got different answers than the other day.

"Waiting for mosquitoes to subside".....I have to do a double take when I read that......not an issue on a February evening in Wisconsin.

I would think that your motor would run rough with wires 5&6 crossed.......
Now 5&1 or 6&2 crossed, would not matter as they are on the same coils......and fire together anyhow.

I thought on my 95 the pairing of the ignition coils goes like this: 1&6, 5&2, 4&3

I'm assuming "pairing" works that each coil set is directly across from the other, measuring/looking across the shortest width of the coil pack.

I found some reference values in my Ford CD-ROM (for the injectors) and they were in units of measure mS (millisiemens).


Nope, the S isn't referring to Siemens (the standard unit of electrical conductance), but instead it refers to the second (standard unit of time). Thus the figures you're seeing in the manual are the pulse durations for the fuel injector measured in milliseconds (mS).

The figure which you quoted of 0 milliseconds for KOEO is handy, because that confirms that the injectors should indeed remain switched off at that point, which is what we'd all pretty much agreed on. Then at hot idle you've quoted around 6 milliseconds, which sounds perfectly reasonable. Then of course if you were driving the vehicle, as you accelerated up through 20mph, 30 mph, 40 mph, the pulse duration would keep gradually increasing in order to allow greater fuel flow in order to attain those speeds. It's often spoken of in terms of 'duty cycle', with the duty cycle increasing at higher speeds, decreasing at lower speeds, and falling to zero at KOEO.

Just to clarify on the subject of the injector operating voltage - it is always 12V (nominal), and flow rate is adjusted not by varying the voltage, but rather by varying the length of time (pulse duration) for which the injector is held in the 'open' position.

At KOEO, no current should flow through the injectors, but if you have an electrical problem which is causing one or more to be held open, then current flow through an individual injector will be around 0.8 amps (12V divided by 14.5 ohms), with a power dissipation of around 10 watts (12V multiplied by 0.8 amps) - that's far too much heat to be dissipated continuously in such a small, unventilated component, so don't leave the ignition switched on for any longer than necessary whilst you're taking voltage measurements, and do allow an interval for cooling between taking sets of measurements.

Do as Wiswind said when measuring voltages - connect the meter common lead to a known good ground, and measure the voltage first on the red wire and then on the non-red wire. No need to measure the voltage directly across the red and non-red wires, because we can derive that later, by subtracting the non-red voltage from the red voltage.

You said you've discovered anomalies in your voltage readings, so I won't comment on those until you've clarified them.

This post for corrections only:
From post 191 up till this one check for BOLD and RED corrections I've made to my posts.

Nope, the S isn't referring to Siemens (the standard unit of electrical conductance), but instead it refers to the second (standard unit of time). Thus the figures you're seeing in the manual are the pulse durations for the fuel injector measured in milliseconds (mS).


You are definitely much more an expert on the electrical stuff than me, so I don't want this to seem like I'm arguing. I merely want to be VERY sure on this unit of measure because I researched the "mS" notation before doing all that stuff I did in prior posts.

What I've found is that:
lowercase notation: "ms" = milliseconds
and
lower/uppercase "mS" = millisiemens

In the reference value chart I found it shows as lower/uppercase "mS" specifically.

I looked it up here on these sites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS
http://www.sizes.com/units/symbol/mSmn.htm
http://inst.sfcollege.edu/mugs/DRC/User%20Manuals/Scientific%20Notebook/text%20format/SCIENTIFIC%20CHAP2.txt
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/electric-conductance/c/
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/time/c/

I debated with myself too about milliseconds vs millisiemens. In any case whether we are dealing with TIME or AMPERAGE/VOLTS zero is zero for KOEO.


Just to clarify on the subject of the injector operating voltage - it is always 12V (nominal), and flow rate is adjusted not by varying the voltage, but rather by varying the length of time (pulse duration) for which the injector is held in the 'open' position.

Got it.


At KOEO, no current should flow through the injectors, but if you have an electrical problem which is causing one or more to be held open, then current flow through an individual injector will be around 0.8 amps (12V divided by 14.5 ohms), with a power dissipation of around 10 watts (12V multiplied by 0.8 amps) - that's far too much heat to be dissipated continuously in such a small, unventilated component, so don't leave the ignition switched on for any longer than necessary whilst you're taking voltage measurements, and do allow an interval for cooling between taking sets of measurements.


I've decided I see no reason to leave the injectors plugged into their harnesses until I've isolated the electrical fault, so they are unplugged for now.


Do as Wiswind said when measuring voltages - connect the meter common lead to a known good ground, and measure the voltage first on the red wire and then on the non-red wire. No need to measure the voltage directly across the red and non-red wires, because we can derive that later, by subtracting the non-red voltage from the red voltage.


Coming up in next post. I did this earlier. Just didn't get time to post it till now.


You said you've discovered anomalies in your voltage readings, so I won't comment on those until you've clarified them.

Yes, but its been hard keeping track of all this ... retracing errors I made myself and things that happened that I'm doing a double take on. You see in next post.

EDIT: I had written quite a bit on millisiemens calculations, but a google search for that term and fuel injectors comes up with zilch so my Ford Cd-ROM must've notated "mS" improperly and was meant to be "ms" cause "m uppercase S" is millisiemens though from what Selectron said and reading up on injector stuff milliseconds is the appropriate word.

Reference Values from the FORD CD-ROM (I accidentally found these):

ms = milliseconds
KOEO: 0 ms
Hot Idle: 5.7ms - 6ms
30 mph: 4.9ms - 7.9ms
55 mph: 6.8ms - 11.7ms

Here are the previous test results I posted earlier:

Tested Injector Wire to Injector Wire - 1st Test
5.43 mV or .00543 volt - Injector 4 -front bank
5.50 mV or .00550 volt - Injector 5 -front bank
5.48 mV or .00548 volt - Injector 6 -front bank

5.59 mV or .00559 volt - Injector 1 -rear bank
11.8 mV or .01180 volt - Injector 2 -rear bank
11.8 mV or .01180 volt - Injector 3 -rear bank

Now for what I did last night:

Tested Injector Wire to Injector Wire - 2nd Test

Same as 1st test results except the 11.8 mV was missing from injectors 2 & 3 and instead was around 5.5mV like the others. ODD???


Tested Injector Wires to Chassis Ground - 3rd Test

3.3 mV | Injector 4 -front bank - red wire
Nothing | Injector 4 -front bank - non-red wire
3.0 mV | Injector 5 -front bank - red wire
Nothing | Injector 5 -front bank - non-red wire
2.8 mV | Injector 6 -front bank - red wire
3.3v - 6.0v | Injector 6 -front bank - non-red wire

3.2 mV | Injector 1 -rear bank - red wire
Nothing | Injector 1 -rear bank - non-red wire
3.2 mV | Injector 2 -rear bank - red wire
Nothing | Injector 2 -rear bank - non-red wire
4.0 - 3.2 (settled at 3.2) mV | Injector 3 -rear bank - red wire
Nothing | Injector 3 -rear bank - non-red wire


Continuity testing of entire Injector Harness while unplugged from PCM - 4th test
All continuity tests passed with zero resistance.

This leaves the continuity tests from the male ended injector harness connector on the PCM side to the PCM connector (gotta remove that dang cowl).

Ok ironing things out:
1. Even though I'm going crazy with all this I know injectors 2 & 3 showed 11.8mV or 11.8v the 1st time I checked KOEO red injector wire to non-red injector wire. Problem is since I screwed up the mV vs V thing I can't recall which (mV or V) it was for sure.

2. I should be getting NOTHING for the red wire's against chassis ground right? Whats up with this mV stuff I'm seeing?

3. Why did injector 6's non-red wire give me a mV results against chassis ground?

4. Perhaps in twisting, moving, the injector wiring harness I've caused some shorts that were revealing themselves to go away? or vice versa?

5. I shouldn't be seeing "ANY" voltage at all (even mV) off those red wires with KOEO...... but given the resistance of the injectors between 11.0 and 18.0 ohms (haven't measured the new ones; but old ones were 14.5 ohms on average) would a mere 3.2mV to 5.5mV of voltage even cause an injector to open at all going against say 14.5 ohms of resistance? IE: .0055v / 14.5 = 0.000379310345 amp .... looks like nearly zero current flow to me equating to likely zero injector opening huh?

6. Lastly - Anything that looked odd I repeated the test for several times before writing it down.

:banghead:

I think continuity testing to the PCM from the injectors and from PCM injector pins to chassis ground is gonna show me what I'm looking for. Its gotta be some trickle current getting in somewhere.

Couldn't millisiemens apply for "amperage/volt" running through the injectors given their resistance and given the various stages of use: KOEO, Hot Idle, 30mph, and 55mph?

I ask because when you convert millisiemens (assuming its millisiemens for argument) to amp/volt using the reference values the Ford CD provides you get volt numbers that come extremely close to what you'd experience at Hot Idle and the 11.8's are close to what you'd experience at 55mph thus would explain the constant stream of fuel we heard in inj 2 & 3. If this is right to have Hot Idle mV's during KOEO then it would indicate that the wiring for KOEO and Hot Idle conditions are crossed??? or would this indicate that the TPS unplugged may have something to do with all this?

... What I've found is that:
lowercase notation: "ms" = milliseconds
and
lower/uppercase "mS" = millisiemens

In the reference value chart I found it shows as lower/uppercase "mS" specifically.

Yes, you're right about the abbreviation in both cases, so millisecond should indeed be abbreviated to ms and not mS. The convention is that where a unit is named after a person (watt, ampere, etc.), the abbreviated form should use a capital letter, whereas when the unit is not named after a person (second, metre, etc.), the abbreviated form should use a lowercase letter. Thus millisecond should be written as ms, and millisiemens as mS. I routinely write the abbreviated form of millisecond incorrectly, and it appears the Ford technical authors have done the same thing; I'll need to be more careful in future. Regardless though, I can assure you that the Ford manual is quite definitely referring to the pulse time duration, measured in milliseconds; they would have no reason whatsoever to bring conductance (siemens) into the picture, so put all thoughts of that aside because it will only confuse things.

Speaking of confusion, I'm looking at your voltage readings and scratching my head because it looks like you have no voltage reaching the injectors - all red wires should have been reading around 12V with respect to an independent ground, so are you sure you had the meter's common lead on a good ground point? I'll make a cup of tea and read through the voltage readings again.

Okay, there's something badly amiss with your voltage readings, because all injector red wires should measure 12V. Forget about anything else until we sort this one out. It's only likely to be caused by one of three things:

1. Meter common lead isn't connected to a good ground point. When working in the engine bay, the quick way to check that is to connect the common lead to your chosen ground, and then probe the battery positive terminal with the red probe - if you don't see full battery voltage then it isn't a good ground.

2. Meter display is being read incorrectly - verify what 12V should look like on the display by taking a reading directly across the battery.

3. Fuse 'S' (30A) in the engine compartment fuse box is open-circuit. That's easily checked. It might also be worth checking fuse 20 (25A) in the interior fuse panel.

I can't think of any other explanations - oh, unless the harness which feeds the injector red wires is somehow open-circuit - either because it's unplugged, or faulty.

... I "vote" for #4, because harness damage has been observed.

Ok. I'm gonna do a sanity :eek7: check and recheck a few of those voltages I took. I'll recheck the meter leads, I'll check battery voltage to a chassis good ground, etc...

Gotcha - I'm convinced (hehe lol) ... its milliseconds and not millisiemens. :tongue:

Last night before I did all this I even recrimped the test lead alligator wires cause I didn't like that they were showing .9 resistance on the ohm meter. Afterwards I got'em to 0.00 resistance. I did also check battery voltage against a known good ground too and got the right number too. I also checked ground continuity from the engine block to the frame and got 0.00 too, but the alternator ground strap IS NOT connected at this time though having confirmed 0.00 resistance elsewhere from the block to the frame I thought would've been good enough. Perhaps I'll connect the ground strap/cable to something on the block and redo these tests and see what happens too.

But... my main purpose in going back out to redo these tests is for sanity :sly:. lol

#4 - Yeah... I have to wonder about this now for sure. I wish I could've taken a picture for ya'll. I went to the day I was repairing the melted harness and my camera wouldn't come on. Go figure. The bad voodoo :evillol: seems to be infectious.

I can't think of any other explanations - oh, unless the harness which feeds the injector red wires is somehow open-circuit - either because it's unplugged, or faulty.


"harness which feeds the injector red wires" is what I'm calling the main PCM wiring harness - the main PCM wiring harness is what melted together. I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being open circuits at that point.

Last night at first I had started testing voltage with the fuel injector harness unplugged (cause of my continuity test of the injector harness), but then I caught myself after the 1st try and plugged it in to get those voltage numbers.

What is the tiny lone red wire with a white strip that has a small connector end that almost looks like a L shaped vacuum line boot? This lone red wire with white stripe slides over a small bolt stud sticking out of the engine block top right (relative to actual pulley front of engine this would be right rear). You can barely see it as its under the fuel rail and some other stuff.

Ok, since I know the injector harness check out for continuity at all pins/wires I disconnected it from the PCM harness connection point and instead only tested the 1 red wire (to save time) that goes to the PCM. I clamped an alligator lead wire to the male pin (remember PCM side of harness; black connector) with some electrical tape around the tip so it wouldn't touch other pins.

Then I clamped the other end of that red lead to my red test probe on the meter.

I had already secured a known good chassis ground (tried 2 known good chassis grounds too) with a black alligator clamp lead and then attached this to my black meter probe. I also attached another alligator clamp to the alternator ground strap and to the engine block to cover the ground that is not attached right there... even though I apparently didn't need to because chassis ground continuity was still ohm'ing 0.00 from the block to the chassis beforehand.

FINALLY: OBSERVED VOLTAGE FROM MAIN RED INJECTOR WIRE THAT LEADS TO PCM HARNESS

RED WIRE to chassis ground: 3.0 to 4.0 mV

Battery voltage tested separately: 12.06V

So that no good right?

Selectron has directed you properly.

The only sensible interpretation of the mS figures is that they are improperly labeled timing data.

However, if the purpose is to diagnose the source of the "leaking" sound, could a simple check of disconnecting all injectors from the wiring harness, then turning the key on assure you that it is not an electrical problem, since injectors should not allow any flow without electrical power applied?

Also, if you are convinced an injector is leaking without electrical power applied (an therefor the problem is a mechanical fault and not electrical) is it possible for you to remove all injectors from the manifold, install them on the fuel rail without inserting them back into the manifold, then turn on the key to apply pressure? This more involved, but it will immediately allow you to observe any leakage that occurs from each injector. In addition, you can confirm the operation of each injector by using a wire from battery to one terminal of the injector, and another from the other injector terminal to ground, catching the fuel spray in a can. I've done this on my Chevy, but not on my Windstar.

If you do this then you should be aware of the potential fire hazzard as you will be atomizing fuel in the same vicinity as electrical sparks.

None the less, the electrical readings suggest that you are not getting any power at all to the injectors, which as noted above, should always have 12 volts on one of the terminals. Also, I'm curious as to how you are accessing the harness wires, if the injectors are in place when you are taking your voltage readings. I didn't think there were any exposed wire in the harness. Is it possible that you're not making contact to the actual wires when you take these readings?

Just a couple notes about using a meter....
1 Volt = 1,000mV...... I have found that readings like you are seeing in the mV range are not reliable....in other words....can be just random inductance into the meter leads.

Resistance measurements..... for a sanity check......at low resistance value readings......try putting the 2 leads together so that you are measuring the resistance through just the leads......it is not unusual to see some resistance......even a couple ohms....
Sometimes just reseating or turning the leads where they plug into the meter can vary this.

My point being......you can drive yourself nuts with these 2 things.

A bunch of posts up, I listed the path from the battery to the red lead connection on the fuel injector......through the PCM relay.....and the fuses involve in making it happen.
Of course.....a blown fuse would impact ALL the red leads......not just one or a couple.
With the Key in the Run OR the Start position......have about +12V to ALL of the fuel injectors through the RED lead......REGARDLESS of if the engine is running or not.

The PCM is connected (through the wiring harness) to the other lead at each injector.
The PCM will be at a high resistance at that other lead......preventing current flow through the injector......when the engine is NOT cranking or running.

When the engine is trying to start or is running......
The PCM will apply a very short duration (that is where the ms....milisecond discussion comes in) in order to MOMENTARILY energize the coil.....and cause a very short squirt of fuel.

The PCM is looking at a variety of inputs to determine WHEN to squirt.....particularly the input from the camshaft position sensor....to know when to spray fuel into the open intake valve.

The length of the squirt (HOW MUCH fuel for each single fire of each cylinder) is based upon what amount of fuel is needed in order to maintain the optimum air/fuel ratio.....which is where the upstream oxygen sensors come in.....along with known data about RPM, how much air is measured flowing in through the MAF.....what temperature is that air as measured by the Input Air Temperature Sensor (how much is the air going to expand?).....and a few other things.

But.....again.....with the engine not in the start or run mode (but key in the run position) you should have +12V coming to each injector.......but NO fuel squirting.......and no path to ground through the PCM.
Which is why......using a known ground......you should read about +12V at both terminals of the fuel injector (if it is even possible to probe with your meter with the injector plugged in).

Now....it was suggested that you unplug the electrical connector from the injector and measure the voltate at the red lead terminal IN the wire harness injector plug.....you should have +12V at each red lead with the key in the RUN position.......and in the resistance mode (OHMS) you should see a high resistance value at the other (non-solid red lead) terminal.
The Non-Red wire is going to be a different color or color combination (stripe) at each injector......as each of those wires are going to a different pin on the PCM (whereas the Red wires all connecto together at some point in the harness).

Don't worry about getting confused about the cylinder numbers above.......as long as you get it figured out.......if you have an injector that is spraying under the conditions you list......it is not a good thing.....regardless of which cylinder position it is at.
So all the advice still applies the same.
Of course.....it is easier to work with the front injectors.....

How about SHOW N TELL ?
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/Fuse-S-Blown-95-Windstar-3.8L.jpg

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/Current95Windstar3.8EngineBay.jpg

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/InjectorAndPCMHarness95Windstar3.8.jpg

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/PCMWiringDiagramRelativeToEGRpipeSMALL.jpg

PHOTOS:
1. Obvious. :) A little humor too. - Like how I matched the fuse color to the words? lol

2. I thought it would help if ya'll saw my current working environment so that the questions about how I'm testing would be easier answered. TOMJ76 - KEEP UP!!! Old injectors are OUT (4 of them no good to me)!! New Injectors are in, but I have unplugged them until I fix electrical stuff.

3. MELTED PCM HARNESS photo - that whole red line indicates what I covered up with new electrical tape hoping to God it wasn't shorting anything out. The green line indicates where the injector harness goes into the PCM harness.

4. ENGINE WIRING diagram - A rough diagram I made up to explain to the shop what they did. I figured it'd help showing ya'll too.

I HAVE NEVER IN MY LIFE BEEN SO HAPPY TO FIND A BLOWN FUSE!!!

The skinny:
Tracking down voltage issues after hearing the injectors squirting full blast, I think the answer is in my test results which made me think I was going crazy. I DID SEE 11.8v on 2 & 3 when I first started testing, but thereafter is when I believe that fuse "S" blew from me handling the PCM and injector wiring harness. So, after that when I retested I got nothing or some obscure mV readings.

I suppose my test leads flopping around for a few moments before testing could've triggered a fuse to blow, but I saw no sparks during any of my tests as I was very careful what touched where, especially since I'm real close to raw fuel.

I had noticed after the 1st voltage tests that the check engine light was not coming on anymore at Key On. At the time I didn't know what that meant, but I do now since Selectron made me recheck fuse "S". Fuse "S" was NOT blown before I started working on the vehicle as I'd checked it several times in the past when trying to trace down all this stuff. What I'm gonna have to do now is check EVERY FUSE after all of this gets fixed right because I have to assume that ANY/ALL wires touched some place they shouldn't have due to the melted PCM harness.

I think that handling the harnesses basically revealed a short over X number of wires. This very likely has everything to do with my engine trying to stall after the fans shut off and the weird a/c clutch coil clanking on the 1st start of it after its sat for a long time.... and last, but certainly not least... this will finally probably resolve my MPG issue.

Tomorrow I'm going to the shop with my Father (team up on'em) to talk some sense into these people. They have been reasonable every time and always worked to resolve things, but since this is such a hairy and potentially time consuming issue I'm wondering what they are gonna say. All I want out of them is a new wiring harness as I will replace it myself. If they can't do that and just want to repair it.... sorry but.... f them.... I'm not letting them touch my engine bay anymore.

I'm very clear on how to use my meter. This stuff is cryptic enough as it is so I'm gonna leave meter usage practices out of this. I know i need to make sure continuity is good before testing voltages etc.. and that leads shouldn't touch unless I mean for them too, etc...

I repeatedly test my meter leads for resistance. They always come up 0.00 - its a digital multimeter with auto-ranging. I know what yer sayin though, cause someone (probably was you Wiswind) told me about that a while back. When I attach test leads (alligator clips and paper clips) I do a resistance test so I know what the variance is now.

What I didn't know though was that I could see obscure erroneous mV readings. I guess this is similar to seeing the mV readings range all over the place when a positive lead is connected and no ground is connected yet.

GOING ON SAFARI:
I will certainly post back to let everyone know what happens after the shop visit tomorrow, but tomorrow as well I will be going out of town and leaving this project on hold till I get back. I've been holding off a girly-friend of mine for 2 months now on a visit and now that I know this repair is going to be quite hairy I'd rather go see her, have a GOOD time, and then come back and resolve this after the shop gets me the stuff I need or after I order what i need, or if I just decide to buy a bunch of wire and fix it myself.

HUMOR OF THE DAY:
I went to NAPA Auto Parts today to exchange the faulty alternator that my shop just put in only a couple weeks ago. I had them test the new one. Guess what? It had extreme physical damage at one of the mounts (looked like it got in a fight with a sledge hammer). They put it back and should have another one for me tomorrow. :) WONDERFUL LUCK HUH????? LOL

I am now wondering if the new alt that the shop put in was bad to boot or bad after it encountered my engine bay with this wiring problem..... but..... my old alternator I do believe was GOOD and didn't need to be replaced to begin with so I really believe this alternator from NAPA that the shop put in was bad to begin with.... especially since the voltage regulator looks like the old one or just looked very beaten up.

Well, I thought my photo post would've generated even a LiL bit of buzz and laughs with you guys. lol - Hope so.

Yesterday was a good day.

I went to the shop. Told'em about the melted harness, 5&6 spark plug wires swapped, injectors, blown fuse etc... and the owner offered to come and repair the harness at the house since I had it all apart in the driveway. He came over, inspected it, and then left and came back with some tools and we worked together on it.

I don't have the info on me at the moment, but I wrote down the color/stripe of the wires we had to repair and at least 3 of them were fuel and O2 sensor related. There were 2 others: 1 a ground wire to the block which had escaped me until I looked into replacing the injectors... it was hidden basically behind/under the fuel rail and stems off the PCM harness to the block. 2nd - Red wire with white stripe running to what appears to either be an engine block temp or pressure sensor. (EDIT: Found out this is the "TEMPERATURE SWITCH" aka "Water Temperature Indicator Sender Unit" aka "Coolant Temperature Sender")

I cannot find this in the PCM connector diagram. This wire and the ground were exposed significantly and very close to each other. The others were in the vicinity too, but not as close.

Alternator - Yesterday marked the 3rd Alternator from NAPA that was no good upon arrival to their store. 3 alternators in a row tested bad before I even installed them (the last 2). Finally I went back to my now "sorta trusted shop again" to get my money refunded so I could go somewhere else to buy another Alternator. Supposing to be the less quality store (Autozone) I went there to get a Duralast. Had'em test it.... PASSED on 1st try. Bought some new 30A small fuses too.

Currently the engine bay is sitting how you all saw in the photo as I've run out of time. I can't keep a lady waiting forever and tomorrow during the day I'll be driving to visit her for a couple weeks. It sucks that after coming so close to finishing this crap that I'll have to wait to get back and put it together to see if the wiring fixes were the magic touch that ends this bad voodoo Saga.

POETIC IRONY????? - When I was at Autozone as soon as I walked in I saw the tech that installed my engine (twice) who no longer works at my "sorta trusted shop". He was let go. I hadn't seen him anywhere else EVER in my life except at the shop. I was having a good day and then I saw him and just tried not to laugh or worse get mad at all the problems he's caused me.

The owner, that came to my house yesterday, tried to take blame personally for the spark plug wires n stuff .... but I couldn't agree with him cause I know how he is (meticulous like me) and I told him I knew it was that guy he fired and that things have probably been setup all fudged up for over a year and a half since the new engine install.

Until I get back and then we can finish this.:biggrin:

What a learning journey you are on! (... and I don't mean the one with the lady friend.) That engine bay looks very sanitary. You are using tape and protective paper on the engine very wisely. You've spent more, time if not money, than the car is worth ... but think what you've already learned. A bounty!

Education is expensive ... but always a good investment.

Searcherrr - regarding the issue of spark plug wires 5&6 being crossed, which you mentioned a few days ago - I noticed an anomaly in something which you later said, but I didn't mention it at the time because I wanted to get the injector voltages sorted out first.

So, from post # 205:
I thought on my 95 the pairing of the ignition coils goes like this: 1&6, 5&2, 4&3

I'm assuming "pairing" works that each coil set is directly across from the other, measuring/looking across the shortest width of the coil pack.

Well when I was looking at the fuel injectors on the '95 PCM wiring diagram, I happened to notice that it shows the ignition coil pairing as being: 5&1, 3&4, 2&6.

Wiswind's post #189 fits in with that pairing:
I would think that your motor would run rough with wires 5&6 crossed.......
Now 5&1 or 6&2 crossed, would not matter as they are on the same coils......and fire together anyhow.

So I'm wondering if maybe you're identifying the coil pack's terminals incorrectly. Are the numbers marked on the pack? If not then it would probably be a good idea to get somebody to clarify the numbering of the terminals before you reconnect the leads.

This one's been nagging away at the back of my mind all weekend so I decided to investigate. Below is a link which shows the coil's high-tension (HT) output terminal numbering, and if you start out at HT terminal one and then proceed clockwise, the numbers run incrementally through 1, 2, 3, 4, but then when you get to terminals 5&6, they break the sequence, so I assume that's where the confusion has arisen. Now that I understand that, I can spend my Sunday thinking about something else. Of course, the way to avoid confusion altogether with ignition coils and spark plug leads is to do what I do, and drive a diesel. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon10.gif

'95 3.8L Windstar ignition coil, high-tension terminal numbering (http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Windstar/Windstar-ignition-coil.gif)

This is why I try to have ONLY 1 wire disconnected at a time.......greatly reduces the chance for me to grab the wrong loose end.
That is a lesson that I learned very early on......and has stayed with me.
Of course, this is not always possible.....but I certainly do look for a way to do this.
Otherwise......I tape and label the wire ends.
Of course....this is starting with a situation where things are connected in the correct place to start with.

I'm very interested to see what a new wiring harness does. My van does funny things at idle and I have a replaced parts list similar to this one, too. Plus perpetual 171/174. I wonder if I don't have similar electrical problems.

Ooopss. :)
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/WindstarIgnitionCoil.jpg

Selectron's nice graphic to supplement my lil self-drawn diagram above:
http://redirectingat.com/?id=252X400&url=http%3A//i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Windstar/Windstar-ignition-coil.gif

I had drawn out my diagram above for another thread I did (Bad Coil Pack symptoms) and not recalled that 5 and 6 have weird positioning.... weird to me. It is ME who made a mistake on 5&6. I thought since 1,2,3,& 4 are in the position they are in that the last 2 positions would be "middle 5" and "last 6", but clearly 6 is in the middle on the non-connector/harness side and clearly 5 is the last terminal on the non-connector/harness side.

Its simply easy to mistake this and I goofed. I even labeled it wrong in the engine bay despite my diagram being correct, and I will have to fix that when I get home. Lucky for me I have great help on here and ya'll noticed it before I tried to start the van. I would've been some f'in pissed.

I have 2 new coil packs (1 performance and 1 OEM; perf. one on vehicle). The OEM pack has the numbering on it with a sticker. I will confirm on that pack too when I get home later this week, but I believe the diagrams are accurate and that Selectron found my boo boo.

Drive a diesel huh. :) lol

12Ounce - EDUcation indeed sir. INDEED. $$$$$$$ and lots n lots n lots of TIME. I do like knowing all that I know now though. I really do, because it just is good to know what I'm dealing with whenever I bring it in somewhere if anything else.

Wiswind - I guess in all this highly technical stuff I thought like Selectron mentioned (going clockwise around the coils) that 5 & 6 would be in order even despite the diagrams. I guess I was mirroring what I saw to draw that diagram, but wasn't registering that in my engine bay I had it backwards.... which means that my shop DIDN'T mess up the spark wiring after all.

Freakzilla69 - I'd seriously doubt this problem I had would be on other Winnies unless someone had pulled the engine and rerouted the PCM wiring harness OVER the EGR pipe and between the rear (right) valve cover of the engine like on mine. This key mishap is what caused my wiring to melt. If I were you I'd scout all your wiring and make sure its not touching anything hot or rubbing on anything that moves.

I'm about to post the wiring numbers so ya'll can see what I believe will be resolving this problem FINALLY!!!!

The following is a list of the wires that were melted together and sitting right next to each other exposed in various places with current likely arcing across each other's wires.

Color Legend:
DG = Dark Green
LG = Light Green
GN = Green
BL = Blue
DB = Dark Blue
BK = Black
Y = Yellow
P = Purple
R = Red
W = White
O = Orange

1st Color = Main Color/2nd Color = Stripe

DG/Y - pin 40 circuit 238 - Fuel pump monitor input

BK - pin 25 circuit 57 - Case Ground

LG/P - pin 17 circuit 639 - High Fan Control
....Or it could've been P/LG, but I think it was LG/P; P/LG is pin 61 circuit 393 for HO2S #2 Input - heated oxygen sensor 2 input)

R/W - pin 93 circuit 387 - HO2S #3 Output - heated oxygen sensor 3 output
Although, i recall this going to what looks like the temperature switch on the block

O/LG - pin 43 circuit 71 - Fuel Flow Output (digital cluster only)
Not sure what this means for me since I have the analog cluster, because this wire does exist and I explicitly wrote "ORANGE with GREEN STRIPE" on my lil notebook.
**There is a LG/O which is pin 99 circuit 560 for Fuel injector #6, but I'm sure it was Orange over with green stripe.

BL or DB - Just blue wire. Matches are a DB on Pin 6 circuit 349 of the Ignition Control Module for the Crankshaft Position Sensor (+) and what makes more sense due to my problem that started this thread: DB pin 14 circuit 228 Low Speed Fan Input from PCM. THIS COULD VERY LIKELY BE THE BIGGEST AAAAAHHHHH HAAAAAAAAA !!!!! OF THE THREAD!!! ATTEMPTS STALL WHEN FANS CUT OFF!!!!! Also, circuit 228 passes through connector C100 (the big one in front of the brake booster which goes to the melted spot on my PCM harness).

*If ya'll are wondering, I brought my notebook with me to be able to post this thread later on during my visit to my lady friend. I'll probably be home to finish up the van later this week. For now though I figure those wires are something to ponder. I think it says a lot about what was going on, if not everything.

G'night - it beez 5:15 AM CDT

Hello Sports Fans!!! I'm baaaaackkkkkk! .. like Randy Quaid in Independence Day!!

If anyone is still watching - There is this thread I just created:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5976208#post5976208

Well, I had no desire or energy to put the van back together a couple months ago. I ended up staying longer at my lady friend's house (a month) and left the van cocked up on one side in the driveway with everything taped over until I could get to it.

The past 4 days I put everything back together meticulously taking care to follow torque specs and methodical instructions in the shop manual. Tonight around 9pm CST (or is it CDT now?) I took my sister and mother outside to say a blessing over the hood of the van before I tried to start it up. Excited 10%, and 90% knowing to expect a problem resulting in a feeling of indifference, instead of the old forgotten used to be reaction of disappointment,

.....I had my sister turn the key to light up the dash so I could listen for injectors spewing gas before engine start. This time I didn't hear it. So far so good.

At least the dash lights up as it should since replacement of fuse S, which blew after handling the melted wiring harness - pre-repair.

Started. No good.

Fuel spewing out of front exhaust pipe where 3 outlet manifold meets front down pipe. Same condition as it was before we (The owner from the shop and I) fixed the melted wiring harness. Engine shaking the whole van pretty harshly.

New alternator, new battery, new injectors, repaired wiring and those who remember .... an array of other new parts not to mention engine and tranny too..... still no fix.

What was odd though was before I'd heard (1,2,3) injectors squirting furiously just at Key On Engine Off before the PCM wiring harness was repaired, so I would've thought my problem would've been back there. For all I know though there is gas spewing out of the rear exhaust too and I don't realize it.

Thoughts:
1. What are some things that would cause gas to spew down the exhaust pipe unburned?

2. The fact that I have gas spewing out of a joint between the exhaust manifold and the downpipe - could this mean that the entire exhaust pipe is "FULL" with gas up to the top of the joint? Cause I don't see how else gas would spew out of this joint with pressure going OUTWARD. Would seem to indicate backpressure buildup, but I have new cats and new exhaust pipes..... ????????? what da hell?

3. Is it possible that with the electrical problems at the harness, a bad alt and a bad battery ALL AT THE SAME TIME that a spark plug on the front bank (4,5,6) blew out?

4. Could my "performance" ignition coils be causing too much spark for the stock plugs to handle? Could that in-the-middle-of-repair-upgrade have blown out a plug?

5. Due to all the electrical issues, could the new PCM be blown out with me getting no indication of it on the dash?

6. Finally, I commend anyone who is still following this thread, and again thank you further for your time and help. Any new ideas you have are appreciated. I hope someone can help me find a new direction for tomorrow because all I have left are guesses about a blown plug(s) or a blown computer and gas shooting out the front of the engine.

You've got to find precisely where the "gasoline" is squirting out ... more than just "out of the front of the engine". Maybe you could position a large mirrow, or other glass surface, as a target for the expulsion. Stuff shop towels around??

Be careful!

OK.....I put a post in your new thread about what can cause gasoline to show up in the exhaust......

What I would do......is get your hands on a timing light (while you may not have seen those 2 words together in some years.....I'll bet that (like me) you are old enough to know what one is).

Once you locate a timing light. Disable the fuel pump......no fuel pressure.
Then.....one cylinder at a time......clamp the timing light pick up onto each spark plug wire......and have someone crank the engine, like they are trying to start it.
You are looking for the timing light to flash.....indicating a spark.
No flash......no spark.
The timing light pickup is activated by current (not voltage) through the spark plug wire.
Take your time and check all 6 cylinders.

If you have 1 or more cylinders without a spark.....correct that problem before moving on.

You might consider putting in a OEM style coil pack.
I don't think that a "performance" coil pack would be the cause of this problem....however, I have seen some things listed in catalogs that do not match up with our windstars......so the concern would be if the coil pack is wired correctly for the windstar.......

I cannot see why you would have fuel spraying out at the exhaust manifold / exhaust pipe junction......
The only thing that comes to mind is some obstruction.
On your new catalytic converters......I really hesitate to say it.......if I were standing there in person.....I would have a quick escape route planned out before I said it.
But......it does need to the considered.
Raw fuel into a catalytic converter causes it to get very hot (as you had happen before with your "red hot" situation a number of pages back).
So.....now that I have said it.....I would eliminate a obstructed exhaust situation before moving from the spark issue to adding more fuel.

YES....it is possible....but not certain, that you have fuel coming out of the rear exhaust manifold / tail pipe junction.
DO NOT get under the vehicle while it is running to try to determine this......as I don't want you to get fuel in your face (and end up getting burned, should it ignite).
Each exhaust manifold has its own catalytic converter.......and they merge after the converter....
I am sure that you know this by now, having been under there as much as you have.
But.....it is possible that 1 bank is OK, while the other bank is not.......or that both banks are blocked.
What you DO know for sure is that you have the fuel issue on the front bank of cylinders......it is the rear bank that you don't know about.

One might be able to probe the pins on the fuel injector electrical plugs.
When connected to the injector, ignition ON, but motor NOT running, you should measure the +12V to ground at BOTH wires.
1 wire stays at +12V, the other wire goes to the PCM......and the PCM MOMENTARILY grounds (around 0V) that wire to cause the injector to spray.
You will not "see" this on a meter because the sample time of the meter is much slower than the ground (0V) pulse.
So.....if you see a low value......you have a problem.
At this point, you can see where a pinched wire harness for the fuel injectors can cause a injector to stay "ON" and spray fuel constantly.

Now.....once you know that you have spark at all plugs.....no exhaust obstruction......and no low pin at any of the fuel injectors with the ingnition ON, motor OFF.....you are ready to proceed from there.

If you think only 1 injector is spraying too much....and you do not find a low line to any injector....you can unplug the injectors 1 at a time.....to see if that will narrow down the leaker.

Needless to say......if you have fuel spewing out the exhaust......you likely have fuel leaking past the rings and down into the crankcase........so you are looking at needing to change the motor oil.
I am just not getting past the pressure at a level to have you see fuel come out at that point......some pressure is normal.....but that much raw fuel?

You've got to find precisely where the "gasoline" is squirting out ... more than just "out of the front of the engine". Maybe you could position a large mirrow, or other glass surface, as a target for the expulsion. Stuff shop towels around??

Be careful!


I know exactly where its coming from. Its where my Maganflow Ypipe meets the front exhaust manifold. This is the nightmare Ypipe that won't go away. If I'm seeing gas out this area this also means there is an exhaust leak there too I would think. I can't see how it would matter though, cause the flow of exhaust (when not spitting fuel) flows down and outward and the flared/tapered metal joint where the Ypipe and manifold meet doesn't seem like it would allow much exhaust to get out. I definitely don't "hear" a difference with this tiny opening either.

I'm not getting a CEL. Would this mean the PCM is busted?

I pulled spark plug #6 today and it was wet with fuel and black and it's only 10k miles old, but was also in my old engine. I am hoping the old injectors being faulty and wiring shorted issues that were resolved have fixed this condition and that new plugs will resolve my issues. The plug wires were replaced with the plugs 10k miles ago. I wonder if they went bad too. :( Ugg.

From what I've read a totally black plug is carbon deposits and carbon conducts electricity very well, thus distorting and spreading out the electric charge the plug is supposed to emit in the gap... instead the charge follows the black carbon and I guess amounts to no spark.

I might have a timing light somewhere. I've always heard of it yeah, but never actually knew how using one helped me. lol - I may try the timing light procedure after I replace the plugs. I had already bought a set a few months ago in case I needed them. Putting OEM Motorcraft Platinums back in. I hate gapping plugs. I've been waiting years for good gapping tools to come out and I finally see Accel has released a set of gapping pliers.

Since plug #6 was bad I bet all or most of the others are too from the previous messed up engine condition where the injectors seemingly were squirting erratically and/or full time due to crossed/shorted PCM wires.

You got me scared on an exhaust blockage. I still have that back pressure tester, maybe I can hook that up (if I think I need to after resolving the plugs issue) and see if there is excessive back pressure buildup. 1st guy I was trying to save money with did all kinds of shitty welds, though I doubt he did one large enough that would block enough exhaust air to cause a restriction.

Keep in mind, I have not driven the van anywhere since it started doing the gas spitting. It has just happened in the first 30 - 60 seconds of idling in the driveway. If I can't resolve this with the new plugs, then I think I've made up my mind to deliver it via tow truck to the shop that messed it up to begin with.

If the new plugs don't resolve this issue, I will probably put in OEM coil pack if the shop can't resolve the problem.

Wiswind - Thanks a great deal. I am going to mesh your instructions with what I know now since I've found #6 plug fouled and proceed with testing after I replace all the plugs.

GAS AND OIL MIXED - I HOPE YOU CAN GUIDE ME HERE. I just changed the oil yesterday after I got it all assembled, because I knew this was happening from I think you and another Ford tech telling me this (The shop told me that as well), that gas going into exhaust means gas into crankcase oil.

I only ran the engine for maybe 20 - 30 seconds SINCE THE OIL WAS CHANGED yesterday. Prior to that, the engine sat not running for over 2 months with the old oil. I think I could smell the gas in the old oil.

1. Anyway, my question is since I've only run it once 20 - 30 seconds 1 TIME since the new oil was put in do I yet again have to change the oil or will it be ok?

2. Are my brand new rings on this new engine now bad? They've run probably 2500 miles with the old faulty injectors fouling the plugs.

I would not think that your rings are bad.....I just mentioned that raw fuel sitting in the cylinders will leak down past the rings into the crankcase.

I do not know how to check for exhaust back pressure, or know what the specifications are. Fuel leaking out around the joint.....just is not normal...I would expect it to drip on down. You pretty much have my head spinning on this one.

You are smart to not let the motor run when fuel is leaking out that spot......however it limits the troubleshooting process.
I want to tell you to unplug the fuel injectors on at a time to see if unplugging 1 will change things.....but that has the motor running FAR too long.
HOWEVER.......I think that removing each spark plug.....1 at a time and inspecting them.....maybe 1 or 2 are wet and the others are not?.......which would narrow things down a bit.

Thanks for info about the rings. Think the freshly changed oil is ok since that 1 short idle?

Yeah, I'm gonna go plug by plug and label them and take pictures of'em so ya'll can see too. If the problem still exists after the new plugs then I'll try all the other stuff you mentioned.

Exhaust backpressure testing is as simple as vacuum pressure testing except its done using a hole on the exhaust somewhere. I have one that mounts into the Oxygen sensor holes that I can put on any of the 4 to see if there are pre or post cat pressure build up issues. There is a colored green/red range on the backpressure meter. Basically there should be little to no back pressure on fuel injected engines... less than 1 psi.

Just for safety's sake I think tomorrow I will remove the front O2 sensor just to check if the pipe is full of fuel. I'll stick my finger in there and fish around and see if its wet.

Gapping spark plugs - I absolutely HATE doing this. I'm meticulous and I cannot relax unless each plug is gapped exactly right and the same on each. With no good tool to do this without damaging the center electrode I built something out of a piece of 2x4, a wide head nail, a piece of deck strong-tie flat metal and 3 screws. I used a knife to dig a small indention into the 2x4 piece and hammered the nail into it at that spot. Then I screwed the deck plate into the 2x4 with half the head of the nail exposed. Now I have a flat plate to hook onto the ground electrode and can slide it under the plate and tilt the spark plug backwards to bend it backwards without touching the center electrode. Then to close the gap, the lil taps on a table or piece of wood. Came out pretty good, but I'd much rather have a set of gapping pliers that I finally see someone (Accel) came out with.

Don't get too carried away with the gapping of the plugs.....the Platinum enhancement could be damaged by too much contact with hard tooling.
You can usually see it.

As far as oil.....hard to say how much fuel might be in it.
You could try the "sniff" test......
Once you get the motor running smoothly, I would change the oil again.....as you can pretty much count on some fuel with the amount you mention seeing at the exhaust.

As far as the CEL, maybe you did not have the motor running long enough to set a CEL.....although I would not try to run the motor very long when it is not running correctly.....and codes may not be of much help........the problem being......was the code caused by the problem or causing the problem?......you don't need a code to tell you that you have a misfire.........you don't need a code to tell you that your exhaust is too rich (fuel coming out is about as rich as it gets).....

It would be good to eliminate excessive back pressure from the list....as well as see if you have 1 super wet/fowled spark plug......
If you can narrow down to 1 cylinder......unplug that fuel injector's electrical connector......

Another thing to try before starting the motor........turn the key to the "ON" position....but don't start the motor...
This will pump the fuel system up to pressure.
Then turn the Key "OFF".....and see if the fuel system holds pressure.
If the pressure dies down quickly (like in 30 seconds to a minute), you could have a fuel injector spraying, or leaking fuel.
If the fuel pressure drops quickly.....you could try unplugging the fuel injector harness....and see if the problem still happens (which would eliminate a physical problem vs a electrical).
If unplugging the harness clears the problem....you can reconnect it and try each injector.....to get down to the injector that is staying ON......and then correct the problem from there.

Today's News:
I started late today (like an hour ago) and cleaned #6 and #5 plug bores before I put the new plugs in. Both are gapped wrong and way too low from the factory spec and neither gap matches either. DOUBLE WRONG.

Those plugs I've removed (taking a while cause of cleaning the oil/fuel mix out of the plug bores first) are both not set to the right gap at all. In fact they are like .046 on #6 and #5 is .039. #6 was filthy wet with fuel and oil. #5 was wet with fuel, but not as much as #6 and thats probably because #5 was removed by me previously and I cleaned it up hoping that would do the trick. Still, .039 gap when you are supposed to be in a range of .052 - .056 to me is waaaay off and not enough spark to burn all the fuel properly..... hence another reason that expedited fouling my plugs.

I just hope that I haven't ruined the plug wires SOMEHOW????:sly: I guess if the new plugs do not fix anything I'll have to make sure the NEW plug wires weren't ruined too when the electrical gremlins were still present (hoping that I did get all those gremlins too). Your instructions for the timing light would tell me this answer.

I pulled the O2 sensor in the front too, and found it had fuel still moist on it and it was a tiny bit oily too like the plugs were. I hope some seals aren't ruined now letting too much oil into the plug chambers???? Comments on that??

I may go back out in a bit and finish the 3rd plug (plug #4) before the sun goes down and do the rear bank tomorrow since I don't wanna be eaten alive by mosquitoes and other insects while I'm inserting my body into the engine bay. I think I can reach the rear plugs just by removing the air pipe and nothing else. Looks easier than I had previously thought except for the pain of laying on top the engine.


Reply to post:
Are you saying gapping the plugs isn't important?

I had thought gapping the plugs to the right gap spacing was important on all plugs except Iridium's, but even then I don't see why you wouldn't gap them if you can do it without touching the center electrode.

If you were just talking about being careful while gapping, I haven't touched the center electrode at all except to check the size. While gapping, I have devised a tool/method to not touch the center electrode.

How long after the motor is running right ya think I should change the oil? After 1 tank of gas? I ask cause I was thinking about getting ALL the fuel out before I waste money on more oil. Is there an additive that helps to get rid of fuel in the oil that wouldn't gum up my new engine?

Good point on the CEL. I thought about that. I bet it wouldn't kick the code till the vehicle reaches full operating temp.

I don't plan on starting it again until all the plugs are removed, inspected and new ones installed.

I would have to get very clever about unplugging the injectors because I really don't see how I could reach the connectors to unplug them with the whole intake put back on. I have a long spring grabber tool though for things that fall down during repairs...... maybe I can weasel that thing in there and open the clips up with a small pick at the same time. Only problem with that is that 3 of the injector connector's clips are broken and I secured them with security ties before putting the intake back on. I'd have to weasel a clipper in there first to get those off to do this test and then I'd have no way of redoing the security ties unless I'd take off the intake again. :(

I continuity/resistance tested the injector harness separately with no power to it and it checked out fine. I now remember though that I only got as far as injector #2 and #3 before Fuse S blew out prior to the PCM wiring repairs. It was that testing and manipulation of the wiring that caused the fuse to blow mid-test. So I know the injector harness is good, but I don't know if the PCM is grounding it right or if its LIVE all the time on that live 12v ground wire.

Keep in mind, my injectors are brand new so they should be operating just fine barring irregular PCM signals (grounding on/off).

Thanks Carl.

YES, correct spark plug gap is important.......I was just cautioning to be careful as the platinum enhancement can be damaged if one jams a tool against it.
Most likely, the 0.039 gap would still "work"....maybe more prone to "fowling", but not right away.
I DO check/adjust the gap on spark plugs before I install them.
The correct spark plugs are rated at 100K miles.

Spark plug wires do not take well to being handled.......take the time to grasp the boot...and twist the boot on the spark plug before pulling......to prevent damage.
Easy to forget when one is frustrated / in a hurry.

I am leery of "performance" spark plug wires after a friend put a set of Taylor "performance" wires on his Sunbird.....rough idle (missing) showed up right away.
As he had done a complete tune-up.....he did not know what the problem was.....and over the next 6 months was trying all kinds of things......
Then one night, he tried my trick of lifting the hood in the dark, with the motor at idle.
He said it looked like a city around the spark plug wires.
New wires.....problem solved.
Needless to say, while he was happy to have solved the problem, he was very unhappy to have had it caused by a "premium" part that he had paid extra for.

As far as the injectors being new.....I am hoping that you have the correct ones for the vehicle.....they MUST have the correct flow rate. Too much or too little is no good.
They are rated by flow rate (how much fuel flows when they are "open").
The PCM is calibrated to expect a given fuel flow rate when the injector is spraying.
I am pretty sure that you got the correct ones....but I have seen some strange claims on the internet....

:)

Yeah, I got the right ones. I actually had to send back the ones I got at first because they were the wrong part number (wrong flow rate) and were for all the later year Windstars with more HP. Swapped'em out and got the right part number. Too bad too that I had rushed shipping on the 1st order and was sent the wrong injectors, but the guy refunded shipping for me on his own..... which was nice.

I just think the old rich condition (which I hope is old now) with the bad wiring, bad alt, bad battery = irregular unreliable voltage throughout the van messed up the spark plugs because of irregular injector firing over 10k miles from the old engine to the new one.

I take great care before removing the plug wires. I always grab the boot and pull directly straight outward, while not putting tension on the wire itself. Lots of practice while working with other electronics (always grab the connector) has me that way. Good advice to state in any case.

I'm removing AUTOLITE Part # AP5145 {PLUGS Platinum} plugs and installing the OEM MOTORCRAFT Part # SP482's {#AGSF44FMF6} which are platinum as well. I'm hoping to see this thing perform better than I've ever seen it when I'm done.

Good thing there is no monetary cost on Hope.

Raw fuel leaking out the exhaust manifold - exhaust y-pipe connection....

Ran the engine for 20 to 30 secs...

Spark plug gaps....

If you've really got copious amounts of raw fuel leaking (blowing?) out that connection, a spark plug gap that's within a factor of two of the spec isn't very likely to cause this. Twenty to thirty seconds is not very long to fill up a whole exhaust pipe (or even one cylinder for that matter), so the leak you're looking at sounds to be large.

If an injector was leaking continuously (or more than one), then it could result in much more fuel than something that's only happening while the engine is running. An injector could be stuck open either mechanically or electrically. As mentioned, one wire of each injector is connected to VPWR at all times, and the PCM grounds the other (through a transistor in the PCM) for a length of time according to the amount of fuel that is needed. Most of the time this wire is not grounded, so a normal voltmeter will read only a small voltage (maybe a few 0.1 volts) across the wires (not to ground). I used an oscilloscope recently to look at these voltages on my Windstar and was able to observe the voltage waveform. I also tried a DVM on it, but it recorded only a small voltage.

I also checked my injectors for leaks without using any special equipment. I pulled them out of the lower intake manifold, leaving them on the fuel rails which was still connected to the fuel lines and disconnected wire to each injector, then I turned the on the key to get fuel pressure. Looking at each injector I could see that none were leaking. I also checked each one for operation (being very careful since highly flamable fuel and electrical sparks are involved here) by applying 12 volts from the battery to the terminals of each injector. I let the spray from each injector blow into a clear glass jar so that I could see the volume and pattern of the spray. I didn't do this, but you could also connect the PCM wires to each injector and make sure that there are no leaks with the key off and with the key on.

A quick test to see if you have a injector physically leaking is to turn the key to the ON position, but don't crank the motor.
This will bring the fuel system up to pressure.
Then turn the key OFF.
After a few minutes, check for fuel pressure at the fuel rail.
If you have fuel pressure, not dropping significantly.....then you don't have a big leakage.
If it drops significantly, then you have a leak.

To check if a injector is leaking with Key ON, motor OFF, you could do the same test, but remove the fuse for the fuel pump after the fuel pressure is up.....
Then, leaving the Key ON, motor OFF.......check the fuel pressure after a few minutes to see if it drops significantly.

These checks would see if you have a mechanical leakage (on new injectors, I hope not, but worth checking....maybe a dirt particle on the internal injector valve seat) or a electrical activation of a injector.
It sure is a faster check than trying to measure voltages at each injector.

The spark check (using a timing light) that I mentioned is to see if you have a dead cylinder as far as spark goes.....you know you have spark to some cylinders......as the motor runs (somewhat). No spark to a cylinder will send raw fuel into the exhaust.
There is a spark to each cylinder 2 times in each cycle......1 spark is wasted, during the exhaust stroke.....which I would expect would still ignite the air/fuel mixture.....(backfire?)......the other spark is the one that ignites....and causes the motor to run as it should.

I do remember all the fuss that you went through getting the correct fuel injectors......so I would expect that they are the correct ones.

Sorry I don't have more to offer.....I am not a mechanic.....just trying to think through this along with you.

Today's News:
Replaced all plugs with properly gapped plugs. I became a circus contortion act to do it too.... that is without removing the intake plenum... i just removed the center air pipe piece and pushed my big body to the limits. #1 spark plug was the hardest and I was able to squeeze my left arm down there over the coils to get at it.

The spec is .054" and all the plugs I removed today were between .039" and .046" randomly all different. I don't know what you meant by "factor of 2", but to me thats just stupid for them to have installed them that way and from what i know should cause engine running problems. All plugs were coated charred black and smelled of fuel..... every one. I'm gonna get some pictures up tonight or tomorrow.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that fuel spewing out the ypipe connection is from mis gapped burnt spark plugs, but I was hoping that the plugs were in such bad shape that the fuel coming out was because they weren't getting burned.

Status after plugs replaced: Fuel still spitting out the ypipe connection point, van still acting like its misfiring, though it is not running "as bad" now. I would like to explore this further with you guys so lets keep up discussion, but I have called my insurance company to have it towed to the offending shop tomorrow.

I ran it for about 15 - 20 seconds and the puddle that came out was about 3 inches wide on the ground; not a thick/deep puddle, but spread out evenly on the pavement.

At this point I'm not sure if the PCM was fried and is sending constant fuel injector WOT signals (guessing at that) or what the deal is.

I have not tested the plug wires with the timing light. Perhaps one or more of them is bad. I don't know what else to say at this point. The performance coils should be working fine. They resistance tested fine, but even if they weren't it wouldn't cause gas to constantly spit out into the exhaust.

Since my injectors are new, I would bet the issue is electrically stuck open. I just don't know why because I can't run the engine long enough to hopefully get a code to pop up.

I don't believe any injector is "leaking" per say, but is more likely being held open by voltage. I guess tomorrow I can check pressure though before I send the van off.

THAT SUGGESTION FOR REMOVING THE FUSE FOR THE FUEL PUMP and checking for sharp drops in the fuel pressure is BRILLIANT !!!!! WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT !!!! LOL - I'll try that too tomorrow before the tow if I have time to before they get here.

I really do not want to remove the intake again. It would be easier to do it again though since I've been through it now, but I really don't want to. In order to do all those injector tests thats what I'd have to do and I don't have the patience for it right now since I spent 5 days putting it back together all nice'n spec.

Is there a SAFE way to bench test spark plugs out of the engine?

If I use the timing light to determine if I'm getting spark to the plugs via the plug wires how safe is that? Could the spark jump to me or some other part of the van during testing?

Brief thoughts that would cause this?
1. Fried PCM?

2. Improperly grounded injector harness wiring (somehow due to wires having previously melted together) or charred wiring.. no good anymore.

3. O2 sensor's no good?? Could an O2 sensor poisoned to death by fuel cause an overly continuous rich condition?

4. TPS gone bad?? Could the TPS be just not functioning at all or sending WOT signals causing all this rush of excessive fuel? TPS is the original. I have a new one I bought a long time ago, but never put it in cause I didn't want to mess up the setting. I guess I should have just tried this by now.

No sorries from anyone. :) Ya'll give me wonderful ideas that are thought of differently than I'd think to try. Keep it coming and tell me what ya'll think of my 1 - 4 ideas.:ylsuper::ylsuper::ylsuper: You guys rock! I Love you guys! lol :ylsuper::ylsuper::ylsuper:

#5 - Forgot to mention, Ignition Control Module - Maybe a long shot, but maybe not. I haven't checked voltage to this connector either. Always meant to, but I figured if this was bad that I'd get a code.......yet again.... engine not running long enough to get a code.

I went by the shop today with the old plugs and showed'em. They said I'm running extremely rich on all cylinders, but are seeming to focus on the front bank since I can literally see fuel coming out. I told'em for all I know fuel is coming out the back bank too, but I just don't see it on the ground.

Towing it over there Monday morning. I was extremely worn out and tired from all the work on the plugs yesterday and overslept so I figure getting it to them at the start of the week is more preferred anyway as they confirmed when I went over there.

Gonna perform a few small easy tests this weekend since I still have it. Gonna do the ones ya'll suggest and I just realized that I have a spark plug tester that I've never opened. lol - I have cool things I didn't even know about. It hooks up "flush" between the wire and plug with a light in between, so that'll prove very useful - I HOPE.

"Grounding" the fuel injector harness......
Think of the injector firing in terms of the only electrical connections......a constant +12Volts....and a momentary ground......provided by the PCM.
The only ground should be the ground that the PCM provides to that 1 wire per injector.
I would do the fuel pressure test......Key ON.....pump runs to provide fuel pressure......remove fuel pump fuse (as our older windstars have the fuel pump relay inside the CCRM unit)......and monitor fuel pressure.
This pressure drop should be major......to be providing all that fuel out the exhaust.
Remember....1 gallon is good for a least 15 miles......at 2000'ish RPM.......about 15 minutes.
At idle......a LOT longer.
What "should" be inside the cylinder when the spark is applied is gasoline VAPOR, not liquid.
So.....in short......you have WAY more gasoline going into the cylinder(s) than what is normal.......

I was hoping for a "smoking gun"......1 or 2 spark plugs that are super wet...and the others being OK.
Worth hoping for......but at least you know.....even though it was not what we hoped for......and now you have them all with the correct gap.

Aerostar - It occurred to me yesterday that every time I go over there the shop constantly wants to call the Windstar an Aerostar and just about all of them do it when we're talking about it. I looked up the gap of plugs for a 95 3.0L Aerostar (even though my Windstar is a 3.8L) and found the gap to be .042 - .046" - VERY close to what all the old plugs were gapped at.... even still.... none of them were right on the money at one set gap for even that wrong range. I'm 100% sure this is what they did..... looked up Aerostar instead. Thats where I live everybody..... in loser A.D.D.-ville (attention deficit disorder).

If there is anyone that tells you life in Louisiana is any good, they are full of it, aside from the food. The rest of the people here are morons.

Injector harness idea - I was thinking about my limited access to the injectors now that its all back together and I came up with an clever idea. Since I've fully continuity and resistance tested the injector harness to still be usable and good, I do however have full access to the MAIN Injector harness connector just below to the side of the coolant temperature sensor. Its very easy to get to.

I was thinking that I can run various voltage tests here and just see which wires are grounding for extended periods, or IF THEY ARE, because ya'll say I should only see a brief (if any) voltage across the 2 wires per injector. I could just leave my probe connected to the VPWR wire and systematically run through all other 6 wires in that 1 connector..... thereby testing easily all the signals that are or are not getting to the 6 injectors.

Yes, this leaves out the injector connector harness itself, but again I can't reach it unless I take the intake apart again.

Not sure what I'm going to do tonight. Feeling lazy about all this right now. Might just read up on some tech data and tests to do for the ICM and TPS to add to my list of "TO DO's" from what ya'll have told me too.

I found a test to rule out a bad PCM. Very simple and I like it that way.

Basically it says to stick a light probe (test lamp) between test pin 71 or 97 (VPWR) and suspect injector test pin. If the light is "DIM" (key point) then its normal. If the light is "BRIGHT" its abnormal and instantly the pinpoint test says to replace the PCM.

I think what you said here Carl, "What "should" be inside the cylinder when the spark is applied is gasoline VAPOR, not liquid." - says everything. The charcoal black plugs after 10k miles too. It wasn't really oily... there was "some" oiliness to them, but most of the blackness was flat debris-less on the surface coated like wrought iron colored black spray paint..... which I believe comes from all the leftover burnt fuel.

Since all obvious wiring issues have been repaired and I had several electrical anomalies (bad alt, bad battery, shorted - melted PCM wires related to injector's and O2 and fans, blown fuse "s" from injector wiring testing at KOEO, bad dropping resistor) I wouldn't be surprised if the PCM got wacked at some point.

I sure would like to see a BRIGHT LIGHT indicating PCM needs replacing, because maybe then this damn thing will be over with. If this happens I should be able to get the PCM under warranty or at the Shop's cost.

The black would be carbon.
The fuel burning process produces water and Carbon, as the 2 major elements left over.

I've got to tell you that I think this spark plug gap thing is a rabbit trail...

If you get 20 mpg at 2000 rpm at 60 mph, then ...


2000 rotations/minute * 1 hour / 60 miles * 20 miles/gallon * 60 minutes/hour =

40,000 rotations/gallon or 1/40,000 gallon/rotation of the crankshaft. At 128 fl oz per gallon, this is the same as 0.0032 oz for each rotation of the crankshaft.

Now, if you run that engine at idle for one minute, the maximum amount of fuel that can leak out (if none of the cylinders fired, which isn't true because the engine is running) then the amount of fuel available is:

500 rotations/minute * 1 minute * .0032 fl oz/rotation = 1.6 fl oz.



In half a minute, you'd see have as much, 0.8 fl oz. which is not very much (less than two tablespoons). Also, given that your engine is running, then it's less than this amount, probably no more than half as much.

Static flow rates (flow rate of an injector that is held open) of an injector is about 16 lbs/hr. Since gasoline weighs about 8 lbs/gallon, that translates to 2 gallons/hr from a stuck injector, or about 4.3 fl oz/minute. Six injectors all stuck open would offer almost 26 fl oz (a very substantial amount).

I think the large amount of fuel you're seeing is much more likely to come from one or more injectors held open continuously. As wiswind suggested, the easiest check is to check the fuel pressure drop with the fuel pump off which can be done by pulling the fuse, or by simply turning the key off (which will check for mechanical failure of the injector), or turning the key on without starting the engine and leaving it on (since the fuel pump is only energized for two seconds after key on, with the engine off).

Glad you fellas got back down safe from the space station!