1989 Buick Park Avenue starting problem?

Okay, this is a friend's car, a 1989 Buick Park Avenue with the standard GM 3800 V6 engine.
A couple months ago, she couldn't get it to start. Eventually it would only make a clicking, then nothing at all. She didn't give much details about it.
I stopped over today, pulled out the starter, and took it to Advance. They tested it, and the gear, instead of popping out and staying out, kept jumping around. We picked up a replacement at the junkyard for $35, it tested fine, and I installed it.

Now, here's what I'm getting:
When cranking it at first, it'd make a lot of clicking, and the belt wouldn't move. Eventually the belt started moving a little.
Right now, being powered directly off a vehicle jump-starter at 200amp/12v mode, it'll vary in how much the belt will actually "Move", and the clicking is intermittent.

She had my camcorder, I should've recorded it.
Here's how it sounds:
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/df/0b/ad04370a9ed6.wav

Any suggestions?

Check the battery connection for corrsion and tightness. The positive battery side has a two cable overlay that tends to wiggle itself loose and get some build up as well.

Pull the rubber boots off the battery cable ends & give them a good cleaning.
Try starting with a good battery.

If those two things don't help then remove the fan belt & try it.
If you're still having trouble then put a wrench on the harmonic balancer bolt & see if it's turning freely. Let us know what you find.

I tried it with a second set of jumper cables going directly to the starter, same thing.
I didn't have any battery connected during the last half... I had everything powered directly off a 200 amp jumpstarter. Prior to that it was jumpstarted by my van with my new battery (950 CCA, two months old). I'm assuming her original battery is shot, as it sat through the worst parts of this record-breaking winter in Wisconsin, completely discharged.
By 'fan belt', I'm assuming you mean serpentine belt, as the fan is electric (Transverse engine layout).
Someone at Advance Auto Parts also suggested I try removing some spark plugs so it's not building up compression to see if it spins freely then.

I'm not familiar with a harmonic balancer... where would I locate it?

I don't recall if I mentioned, but at first it wouldn't 'turn' at all... then began turning a little more.

Seems the entire problem I'm having is, the starter pinion will try to engage, sometimes makes it, but keeps jumping in and out.

I already checked the flywheel; it's fine.


[Edited: Oh wait. My old battery was 920CCA. New one is 950]

I had similar problem on my '86 PA - same set-up as yours-- the starter motor takes the big fat shims- otherwise you will eventually tear up your flywheel- I had to eventually replace my flywheel (engine pull) because a bunch of the teeth were ground down from having the same problem as you- I did find though- If I turn that engine by hand to a given spot- it would start much better- those engines like to stop at the same point- and this is where the flywheel gets the most wear- inspect your flywheel all the way around. I also found that unitl I took a known good combination (used flywheel and used starter off my Dad's old engine) that just replacing the starter was not effective- no matter how many shims I used- I went through 3 rebuilt starters until I finally bit the bullet and replaced the flywheel- all those starters acted the same- would "spin-out" - not enage, then after about 10 tries would engage and screech and start the car- ran like this for about 4 yrs- now with the new flywheel- it starts every time and is perfectly normal-- so take a good look at your flywheel- I can post photos of mine sometime....

This is my flywheel where the starter is supposed to be
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/0b/f6/49f29b75ccb6.jpg

Yes, I meant the serpentine belt. You may have a pulley or alternator that's frozen up. The harmonic balancer is the pulley (the lowest one) that's mounted to the crankshaft. You shouldn't have to remove the spark plugs to turn the engine over with a wrench/ratchet. If the engine doesn't turn with the wrench then you could try removing the plugs to make sure the engine isn't hydrolocked. That's a problem on later years with the plastic upper intake.

Okay. My questions aren't from doubt, it's from trying to understand how everything works, so please don't be offended or think I'm saying you're wrong on anything.

So... if an alternator or any other belt-driven item is frozen or causing unnecessary resistance.... the starter will engage, try to spin, but when the torque is too high, it'll cut out and try again? Is that why it keeps clicking in and out?

Your flywheel looks great- I would start trying different sized shims- Although I could never find the perfect combination- some worked better than others- and I ran like that until it got increasingly worse. If you still have the original starter, I would consider having it rebuilt- all my troubles started when I changed from the original starter- then things went downhill from there. I do know that now it works great with an original flywheel and an original starter combination...

Oh, where would I get different shims from? Is it trying to push too far in or something?

The starter could be drawing more amps than normal because the engine has too much resistance. When that happens the voltage can drop way too low & deenergize the solenoid.

Also you said the jump starter is 200 amps. A good battery will have 800 or more. As I said before start with cleaning the battery terminals (very common problem) & get a good battery in there.

Any auto parts store has starter shims- they are in the "help" section at Autozone. I agree, low voltage can be an issue- but the starter usually engages- and doesn't turn over. Try the good battery, and good connections - first- by all means- then go from there...

Okay... it's a 1989 Buick Park Avenue, standard GM 3800 V6 engine.
I removed the serpentine belt, removed a spark plug, and removed the air intake hose.

It'll try to turn over, will even stay engaged now without constantly clicking back out (Put a smaller shim on). However, it turns very slowly and at a variable rate, connected to a 950ccA battery with a full charge. I removed the oil filler cap and I can see the valves moving, I verified there's a spark, sometimes when cranking with the spark plug out, air/fuel will suddenly 'poof' out the hole... and also sometimes air suddenly blows back through the intake, especially if we spray starting fluid in there.

When we stop trying to crank, and randomly throughout the process, this thing will run, and I don't know what it is:
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/93/63/3b1226ae4b5c.jpg

How the car sounds:
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/0a/72/9921cd05b6cb.wav
(Listen to the last ten seconds)

Any more suggestions?

The thing that runs is your air pump that supplies air to your ride level system-- It is a Park Avenue you know- it has that feature- it always adjust the level when you shut off the car- people who become annoyed by it - or when it becomes stuck on- or when there is a persistant leak- making the pump run a lot overnight will disconnect it- (unplug the wiring harness) to avoid running down the battery all the time---Heck- I just unplugged Dad's '87 PA pump two weeks ago...Your starter sounds good- one thing that happened to me is that my cam sprocket and timing chain became really sloppy and worn so bad- it jumped time- and while trying to start it- I actually crunched 7 of 12 lifters- and bent 3 pushrods-- it is an interference engine you know-- I had even looked at the rockers to see if they were moving- and they were- but until I pulled off the front valve cover (the easiest) I was able to see lots of clearance and slop in some of the rockers- there is no valve adjustment on these- it was then that I turned the motor over backwards and noticed NO movement5 of any rockers- that I determined my timing chain was slipping- Once I took the timing cover off- I found that the dampner shoe had fallen completely out due to the tensioner spring breaking- then the timing chain wore all the teeth off the top of the cam sprocket-- Yeah, I sometimes had spark too- when the chain sometimes turned the cam sprocket- so be sure your rockers are all rocking- an easy check on the front valve cover.....

It sounds like it ran out of gas. Assuming it has gas in the tank then you may have a bad fuel pump. Is this a Vin C engine? If so check for fuel at the Schrader valve on the fuel rail. Turn the key to run a few times to pressurize the fuel rail. Then just press in the center of the valve & see if fuel sprays out. Position your hands so the fuel can't spray you in the face.

I'm not sure on her VIN.... all I know is it's the fuel-injected 3.8L V6.

Is there another way to determine if it's a bad fuel pump?

Could be the chain and gear also based on the popping back description, should do a compression test at least.

It's most likely a C, next time you're at the car check the 8th digit of the VIN. The best way to check the fuel pump is by connecting a fuel pressure gauge to the Schrader valve. The Schrader valve is like the valve for putting air in a tire. If she still has the plastic cover on the engine you'll see a cap sticking through the cover. The Schrader valve is under that cap.

Edit - Do you have a voltmeter?

I do have a voltmeter, I do not have a fuel pressure gauge, and I think I know what valve you're talking about now... is there a similar (but larger) one for air conditioner recharging in cars? Because I recall seeing a valve similar to that in my car.

I talked to two of my coworkers who do a lot of work on cars...
You guys are telling me it might be her fuel system, or timing problems
Coworkers and her neighbors think it might be her engine computer or timing problems.

Happen to know what size socket I need to manually turn the crankshaft on the belt side? The largest socket I had on-hand was a 1-1/16" and was a hair too small... unless it's metric at which point I just have random sockets lying around.

It's 1 1/8 if I remember correctly.

I was turning my engine over by grasping the serpentine belt and pulllng- or as well as a screw driver on the flywheel - or by the crankshaft bolt. a loose engine will move with any of these concepts. When mine was out of time- it backfired through the intake- and out the air cleaner several times- sputtered a whole lot- was really having trouble.....

Yeah this one is backfiring to the intake and air cleaner... goes slow trying to turn over.

How would I check the timing? Is it going to require dropping the engine or transmission?

Remove the front valve cover- feel all the rocker arms- are they really loose (mine had collasped the lifters and has 1/8 gaps). turn the engine slowly forward and backward- and see if rockers are rocking. then if you can pull the spark plug under the rockers- see that as you rotate the engine that as the piston travels up the corresponding valves are closed on compression stroke- (every other stroke)-- on my engine was obvious- the rockers would rock in forward direction- but every time I reversed the engine direction- the rockers quit rocking- then it was time to pull off the timing cover.......

I just checked, it is VIN C. I noticed she has really crappy "melted" gaskets, and someone on Yahoo Answers posted

"
You most likely have a bad intake manifold. The gaskets have gone bad and the manifold have degraded and the coolant have leaked into the cylinders causing a hydrolock condition. Very common problem on the older 3800 engine and I have fixed many at the dealership"

Your thoughts?

Which gaskets looked melted? The hydrolocking is a some what common problem on the later years with the 'plastic' intake manifold & also after GM started using Dex-cool coolant. Although not common that doesn't mean it couldn't happen on an 89. Check to see if the coolant is low or if the oil looks milky. Are you having any more trouble with the starter cranking over the engine?

Unfortunantly, the little blonde carowner is away for the weekend, and wouldn't trust me with a stick, much less keys to her car. I believe whatever gasket between the intake manifold and the engine block looked more like caulk than a real gasket (as in, it had sort of... folds in it like where it may have squeezed out).

That silicone gasket is out of a tube- each end of the intake uses that- comes in the intake gasket kit- the sides use the metal gasket (by the heads)- so what you are seeing there is perfectly normal- may also mean the intake has been removed before-and the mechanic used a lot of it-- no big deal...tell that little blonde we haven't got the time to waste- if she wants it fixed- that she should let you have at it-- it certainly won't fix itself.....

Well, what check would you recommend?
If I'm lucky, I can convince her to let me tow-rope it to my house so I can work on it without burning $10 in gas.... and so I can get good pictures of it, rapid responses, etc.
She hasn't been able to drive it since mid-December, so idk why she's being so "blah" about it.

Sure sounds electrical. I would check the termainals and battery for corrosion or grounds being the car being almost 20yrs old.

I cleaned off all the connections... Going from my good battery, I had one jumper cable (+) going to the "Engine" wire (+), another cable (-) clamped onto the engine block (-), and a third jumper cable going from my battery (+) straight to the Constant / +12v on the starter.... so the only "Original Cable" I used was the one for powering the engine computer / dashboard / headlights. The starter was directly connected to my battery by a jumper cable.

I don't know. She texted me before...

>>Did you place my starter in there all the way? cause i got my car to work..
<<Idk k congrats have fun with it
>>oh? you dont know?
<<i'm not going to say anything
>>What why?
<<I am confident that I am capable of putting two bolts in two holes properly. Enjoy your car
>>Well i hope so!
<<K
>>Well I was just wondering that was all cause i didnt remember

So yeah. She somehow thinks I can't figure out how to get a starter in, her car works, and I stopped caring a long time ago.