haha i wish

but i gotta ask yall....do you think the enzo will out perform the F1 and become the worlds newest fastest street car?

Originally posted by snowboarder
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t73509.html

What about lowering your ride.

With regard to the question of who will be the top dog... The new Enzo has some technology that the McLaren had no intention of using. Traction control, very complex engine management, suspension dampening, etc. All of those systems do make considerable contributions to the overall performance of the car, but they still come at a cost, usually weight. The McLaren is still considerably lighter and has more horsepower. When it comes down to shear performance numbers, the horsepower-to-weight ratio says it all.

There is no question the McLaren will still hold the top dog position for top speed, zero-to-60, and likely 0-100-0. However, the Enzo may well be faster around a circuit than the McLaren as a result of the added systems to aid in traction and performance.

Having said that, keep in mind that all the test drives so far indicate that the chief test drivers are able to make a faster lap WITHOUT the traction control turned on. For the normal, non-professional driver, the traction control system is a very good idea. But to compare car to car, we have to consider the very best it can perform, which may will be without the traction control system on.

To really be sure, it will take a head to head competition between both cars in a controlled environment. I would be willing to bet that several magazines will bring us all the details as soon as they can get their hands on an Enzo.

As a side note, I was able to view the Enzo in person at its first showing in the United States at the Las Vegas SEMA show at the Bridgestone Tire booth Nov 5-8. The car is very impressive. I was quite shocked to see the car at the show.

Do you have any clients that are looking at the Enzo or is everyone that isn't one of the lucky 399 screwed?

Originally posted by XOTech


As a side note, I was able to view the Enzo in person at its first showing in the United States at the Las Vegas SEMA show at the Bridgestone Tire booth Nov 5-8. The car is very impressive. I was quite shocked to see the car at the show.


yea the car is very impressive and it look good

but if i had to choose between
for example f50 or enzo i would take f50
and between mclaren and enzo i would take mclaren
and beetween 550 barchetta and enzo.. hm i would take enzo.. sell it and buy 3 barchettas :D

The MacF1 is giong to be bested by a few cars, soon. Teh Enzo being one of them.

Now power to wieg ratio is one thing but traction, handling, braking, downforce is another...and the Enzo is far superior to the F1 in these respects.

I expect the Carrera GT to do the same aswell of course the Veyron 16/4.

let´s see and wait what the future brings

Despite the fact that Ferrari has set the Enzo sales to proceed as a 2 year lease and a probation evaluation at that time and that any attempt to sell the car prior to that "Acceptable Evaluation" will result in the elimination of the allocation and any further opportunity at any such exclusive Ferrari cars, the cars are being sold. If an Enzo is what you must have, then an Enzo you may have. I get calls almost every day regarding the Enzo, both buy and sell.

Ferrari highly desuades the outside trading of their cars (to the best of their ability). They build the cars for the most exclusive of owners to enjoy. I personally find that a bit overbearing of Ferrari. Once a car is sold, Ferrari really has no merit to dictate what the owner does with that car. If an owner wants to briefly enjoy the car and then sell it, that is his choice.

As for who will be the fastest, I am sure I have answered this question on another thread, possibly the McLaren thread, but...The Ferrari Enzo does have considerable technical advancement over the McLaren, but all that traction control is specifically intended for the novice or gentleman driver, not the professional. As you may note, the professional tests that thus far been conducted have all been without the traction control. Test editors for the various magazines drive the car with the traction control on and off and find their times faster with it on. All the numbers so far indicate that the McLaren is still faster by some margin. To be quite honest, I don't believe the Fastest is the issue at hand. I don't mind that the Enzo is or isn't the fastest.

Quite simply, it is the newest Ferrari creation and it is rightly Great in it's own respect. It is different. Exotic cars don't all have to be progressively the fastest with each newly released car. Just that they continually exist is enough to excite me. I love them all. As for the Veyron, it is not yet a real car that can be tested and confirmed. On paper, the specs look amazing. If all of those manufacturers claims make it to the production model, that would be amazing and I would try my best to secure my own. Time will tell.

I personally believe that the McLaren has already been bettered by the Mercedes Benz CLK-GTR, Porsche 911 GT1 and Dauer 962. The Enzo is just the next car on the list that is better than the F1

Pennzoil,

With regard to the Mercedes CLK GTR, the Porsche GT1, and the Dauer 962, all three are great cars, no doubt. I have had a hand in selling each of them. As for performance, they are astounding to say the least. As for better than the McLaren. There are those that are entitled to their opinion, but from the official standpoint of being the titled "Fastest Production Car", the McLaren still holds that position. Now I don't want to initiate a huge discussion as to what "production" is, but there are more McLarens than all three of the others combined.

As for the numbers, the McLaren is faster to 0-60 and top speed than both the CLK GTR and the GT1. Not to mention that both those cars were built for far less drivable use. They were both pure racecars that were modified for the street. Their market value today will tell rather quickly how well they have aged and how popular they are today. Both the CLK GTR and the GT1 have plummetted in value since their inception. The CLK GTR is holding its value better than the GT1, but can be had for the $$subMillions. The GT1 can be had for in the high $600K's.

As for the Dauer, by the numbers it is certainly faster, but it is more accurately termed a Tuner Car. There are most certainly faster cars out there in the world than the McLaren, but despite the Tuner nature of those normally "One-Off" cars, none have near the quality, attention to detail, durability, or sheer ability to impact and inspire the entire automotive culture quite like the McLaren. The Dauer 962 specifically is an excellent example of what is possible with the right combination of components and such. The result is a very impressive car. I like the 962 a great deal. I don't feel that it is as visually impressive as the McLaren, but it is unique and commands respect in its own right.

All to say simply that the McLaren is still the Fastest Production car on the planet. Whether the Enzo will have what it takes to remove that title from the McLaren remains to be seen. I like the Enzo a great deal as well and have had a tremendous response for the car from my clients. The quality of the car is also quite good. Undoubtedly, we will see a proper pairing off of the two cars. As for now, my money is still on the McLaren.

Sorry for the long post.

hi XOTech

your long posts are always welcome here in AF
i can only say for me, but i love them. you should be here more often.

still a question:
what about the price from the clk gtr? is it under a million? how many have been produced? there´s also a clk gtr roadster, right? 6 were made,or?
whwat about the price for a mclaren? i have no idea! but i can imagine the prices differ from the models.

Originally posted by Menu dei Motori
hi XOTech

your long posts are always welcome here in AF
i can only say for me, but i love them. you should be here more often.

still a question:
what about the price from the clk gtr? is it under a million? how many have been produced? there´s also a clk gtr roadster, right? 6 were made,or?
whwat about the price for a mclaren? i have no idea! but i can imagine the prices differ from the models.

the CLK-GTR was 2.6 million deutschmarks pre tax yes?. 25 were sold of the coupe. 5 roadsters were sold, or are to be sold at least.


XOTech: you have driven all these cars i mentioned, taking into account handling and all aspects of speed, which do you think is the fastest. which in road form is fastest around a circuit?

Menu, Thanks for the comment. I try to keep my replies short and to the point, but I see that they are quite long when they finally get posted. When we love cars as much as we do, it is hard to keep quiet. :)

As for the prices... The CLK GTR is currently selling for the low to high $900,000's. I have seen a few cars cheaper and some higher. New, the GTR sold for approx. $1.2million (25 cars produced), the GTR SS sold for approx. $1.25million (unknown production numbers-about 5), and the Roadster sold for $1.5million (5 produced).

As a result of the questions, I have done some additional research as to what they are currently selling for. I found several cars for sale with most quite highly overpriced. If they actually sell for that, I would be surprised. Keep in mind that such high asking prices are often also including lofty commissions and other such costs.

The McLaren has gone up in value in the last year quite impressively. They now consistantly sell for $1.2million in Europe and $1.4-1.5 here in the US (there are considerable import and conversion costs required).

Pennz,
Unfortunately, I have not had the pleasure of driving all of them. I can only answer from the perspective of having been around all of them considerably over the years and when each of them campaigned on the racing circuits. In road form, the McLaren is most definitely the most capable in terms of handling what one would encounter on typical roads. The others are not nearly as well suited. Road quality must be much better for the other cars in order to fully explore their capabilities. The McLaren is uncanny how it can follow the road and react to driver inputs required to cover pavement at high speed.

The other two (CLK GTR and GT1) are unbelievable no doubt, but just different, they are more brutal, and require more precise and heavy inputs from the driver. My observation would be that the CLK GTR and the GT1 are far more race than street, whereas the McLaren is, of course, street first then race car.

On the track in roadcar form, I might suggest that the CLK GTR may be only slightly quicker than the McLaren, but I don't believe the GT1 would be faster.

As many of you may recall, back in 1995 through 1998, the McLaren campaigned with the other two on the racing circuits. The McLaren was hugely successful its first year, and proceeded to command many top spots the following three years. Even today, the McLaren is still campaigned. There are two cars running in the Japan GT.

The McLaren proved to be very reliable (critically important in endurance racing), very strong in speed, and very stable at speed (superior aerodynamics) and in cornering (well balanced setups). Recall what happened to both the CLK GTR and the GT1. Both cars were aerodynamically unstable in certain situations. Both cars flipped over backwards at speed, the CLK GTR flipped at the LeMans in 1999 and the GT1 flipped in the Petite LeMans in 1999.

I expect that the full race trim CLK GTR and GT1 would be faster than a McLaren roadcar but not a McLaren GTR. The racing records plainly show the better of the three cars.

I am sorry, this is a REALLY long post.

hi XOTech

i have read some of your new posts and have to thank you again.
you´re not only a fan of supercars your background and technical knowledge is by far the best i know :D
your posts cannot be long enough



the clk gtr ss? i have never heard of that.
is it a racing version? or a bit modificated verion of the normal clk gtr?


why isn´t mclaren going to build the mclaren 2? :p

Menu,
Thank you for your comments. I don't want to bog down the comments by making things too long, but I do love cars a great deal. :)

As for the CLK GTR SS, it is basically little more than an additional version of the CLK GTR that has more horsepower, less restrictions, and is an attempt at making the car more desirable as a result of making it more exclusive. The performance was clearly better than the non-SS version. Exterior changes were very minor, but subtle enough to tell something was different.

As for McLaren Cars, Ltd. they have made little consession as to the fact that they will never build another McLaren or an attempt at another McLaren. They have succeeded in producing the fastest production car on the planet for over 10 years running now. More than that, they feel that the McLaren is a car that succeeds in every area... driving feel and pleasure, braking performance, engine performance, chassiss grip and feel, reliability, visual impact, outright quality in production, etc. All of the things that make the McLaren stand out among all other cars, McLaren has done better than all others. They feel that they don't need to make the statement again that they are the best at their trade...making a nearly perfect and supremely dominant supercar.

While the McLaren may be the current Supercar that all others are currently judged by, there will more than likely come a time that the McLaren will step down from its position as the Fastest Production Car in place of another. Not to mention, as car manufacturers push their own envelopes of quality and performance, todays supercars are becoming more and more refined. The new Enzo has some of the best quality I have ever seen from Ferrari. That is very refreshing to see.

As I have mentioned, the Enzo may well indeed take the Title from the McLaren. I have my doubts, but I will be the first to conceed that it is possible. We shall have to wait and see.

wow that amazing

Road and track's test times for the Enzo show that it was indeed faster than the McLaren in both 0-60 and the 1/4 mile.

Originally posted by XOTech
While the McLaren may be the current Supercar that all others are currently judged by, there will more than likely come a time that the McLaren will step down from its position as the Fastest Production Car in place of another. Not to mention, as car manufacturers push their own envelopes of quality and performance, todays supercars are becoming more and more refined. The new Enzo has some of the best quality I have ever seen from Ferrari. That is very refreshing to see.

As I have mentioned, the Enzo may well indeed take the Title from the McLaren. I have my doubts, but I will be the first to conceed that it is possible. We shall have to wait and see.

As Ferrari stated, the Enzo is capable of much more performance in it's current state, but to put such a machine in the hands of the consumer would be political suicide. The Enzo is more stable at high speeds than the F1 because it has more downforce, where the F1 gets light and tail happy. They were smart to build a safe, fast car to give the buyer enough performance to get a good idea of what a race car is like, but not a crazy dangerous car just to say they have the fastest suprcar for sale. :smile:

i got road and track recent mag and according to them the enzo crushed the mclarens time!

To put this a different way, I will again make mention of the fact that I do like the Enzo a great deal. It has grown on me the more I see the car. As for the Road & Track article, the pictures were great, but the text was nothing short of ignorant ramblings. The author had a very small knowledge base of the Enzo, other than the poor information he was told and rumors and mis-information that he had accummulated. His knowledge of the McLaren was also severely lacking. It was painfully obvious that he did no background research for his article whatsoever. The numbers that he used to compare the two cars were the numbers that Road & Track had gained in their own test of the McLaren in a long since previous issue. Those numbers were considerably short of the McLaren's true performance.

If you do a simple survey of other magazines that have tested the McLaren accurately and fairly, you will quickly find that Road & Track do not have the accuracy or the ability to test cars of this calibler at the upper reaches of their ability. Suffice to say, I was disappointed in the times and speeds recorded when the McLaren was tested alone by Road & Track. Now they use those inaccurate numbers to compare the Enzo. I don't find that fair or of good sport.

I don't mind if indeed the Enzo is faster than the McLaren, but I need to see it in valid black and white. Thus far, Road & Track has fallen far short of proving that.

I don't agree with the logic of Ferrari intentionally detuning the car for the sake of safety or avoidance of "political suicide". Ferrari has always put their best foot forward. Sometimes it has been good enough, sometimes it has not been. The Enzo is a remarkable car, no question. On paper, it has yet to prove it is in all regard better than the McLaren, in speed or performance. We know at a minimum that the McLaren has a 241mph top speed and the Enzo that is 217mph. Those numbers are very far apart. Granted the Enzo should make a run without the speed limiter and fully prove its merit. I am anxious to see the result. As far as 0-60 and 1/4 times, survey the numerous other magazines that have tested the McLaren and you will see that they are indeed very, very close, but the McLaren is consistantly quicker.

I am sure there will be a magazine to accept the challenge of pitting the Enzo directly with the McLaren to put to bed all such arguements and rumors. That will be a magazine I shall rush to purchase.

Road and Track tested the Mclaren not too long ago when they put it up against the F40 and the 959. They tested the orange one from Arizona so their times aren't too long ago, if I remember correctly they were just last fall.

XOTech, I have to say the Enzo does indeed outperform the McLaren. The only thing it loses out to the McLaren on is the top speed, but that's really a moot point, who needs or has the chance to go 220+ mph?

As for comparing various magazines (and I'll try and dig up the online articles or maybe scan in the print versions), I've compared a few and most that I've seen find the Enzo to be quicker. Not to say that one is 100% definately faster than the other, as the test driver as well as road conditions make a huge difference, but I have to believe the Enzo is the quicker of the two. But the Enzo clearly also has much better braking ability and cornering ability. As for your claim that the HP/Weight ratio says it all, well that's nonsense. HP to weight ratio is only one of MANY factors that lead up to speed/acceleration. Tires can make a massive difference. As does aerodynamics, suspension, transmission, etc. (Though almost everything helps in some way to determine the overall HP that reaches the drive wheels, saying HP/Weight ratio says it all is a bit of an overstatement.)

As for your comment on the Enzo being more for gentlemanly type of drivers, it has often actually been compared to a turing car meets super exotic in terms of the way the ride and handling is.

As for Road and Track's test, I agree. For a 1500 mile road test, I would expect more lavish writing along with a lot better technical details (not just on the Enzo but also on the competition)

I propose we start a fund to buy me an Enzo and a McLaren for you so we can do our own road test :grinyes:

Just a side note, the McLaren cost ~890,000 US Dollars when it first came out if I'm not mistaken. The Enzo costs around ~650,000 USD. How do the prices compare? The McLaren has been out for awhile now, so if the Enzo had come out at the same time as the McLaren, any guesses as to the price? Or if the McLaren had just come out now with the Enzo?

cool man i never knew that

Great Informative discussion going on here. Its good to see some other views and data on the McLaren/Enzo issue. Im not going to dive into everything but im going to have to agree more with flewps info. As from an overall comparison, I am going to have to say the Ferrari Enzo far exceeds the F1.

well said the mclaren is nothing compared to the enzo.
the enzo is the king of supercars