Hello there,

I was told by toyota today that I needed to change my 2 front rotors.
I have a 99 camry with 66K on it.
They told me that the pads were still really good and that I had 97% left on the front breaks. They want to to charge close to $400.
I went to NTB and they told me that whenever I change the rotors, the pads need to be changed as well. They are charging $280 ( rotors and pads+ labor).
I later went to Sears and they said the same thing as NTB regarding the pads. They charge 420$ for everything.
Here are my questions:
1) given the fact that I do a lot of city driving ( 90%), is it normal to have to change rotors this soon?
2)What causes the rotors to go bad?
3) Is it true that changing the rotors is useless if I keep the same pads?
4) last but not least, there is a big difference between NTB's and Sear's price.
Has anyone had their car serviced by these 2 companies?

I am also overdue for a 60K maintenance service.
Toyota is offering this service for 370$ and NTB for $280.
I am of course very tempted by NTB's offer. What are the major things that need to be done for a 60K maintenance service?

Finally, I was told that I needed to do a fuel induction. Toyota is offering that at 189$, NTB at 110$ and sears at 80$.
Are fuel inductions really necessary? I am not noticing anyb changes in my car.

I know that I have asked so many questions but I know that I can always count on members of this community to share with me their experiences.

Thanks in advance,
Leila

I have no idea what a fuel induction is. Sounds like BS to me. I don't think 60K service is all that involved beyond inspecting a lot of things and maybe changing out the trans fluid. Plugs and wires should be good until 100Kmi. You could clean the intake and throttle body with some Amsoil or Seafoam which would be beneficial. Easy to do yourself. As well, throw in some Techron injector cleaner into the gas tank. Check your maintenance schedule to see what it says. Probably good idea to change the coolant too if it has not been done for 2 years. The dealers always make a lot of money off these service intervals below 100K in my opinion. They make up a lot of BS like an 'engine flush'.

As for brakes, I would get them done at Sears or NTB. Price difference could be quality of parts. I'm sure Sears probably uses the cheapest it can find. It's always advisable to replace the pads when you replace the rotors so that the pads will seat properly with the rotors. Did they say why you need new rotors? Are you getting pulsing on the brakes? ie. warped rotors? New rotors can cost anywhere from $35 to $75 each. Pads are anywhere from $20 to $70.

dave mc

Type your info in here for a schedule for your car: http://www.edmunds.com/maintenance/maintenance.do Can't vouge for accurracy but, should be at least a good rough guide.

Pretty much agree with davemac2. They will do anything to sueeze extra bucks out of you. For instance the "fuel induction". I've never heard that term either but, they may be talking about a fuel injector cleaning. This is a nearly totally uneeded, huge money maker for many shops. They connect a machine that pumps a cleaner through your injectors and sucks around $100 out of your wallet. Todays fuel additives and detergents make this cleaning almost totally unnecessary. The only time you would consider it is if dirty injectors were suspected to be the cause of hard starting, hesitation, or an injector error code has been set. Give them the one fingered salute on this one.

It's true it's best to change brake pads when you change rotors. I would be curious why the pads have only worn 3% of their thickness yet you're changing rotors. If the rotors are bad because they are warped (you would feel a vibration when brakes applied) this indicates overheating. Put these two together and they lead be to think you have metalic pads installed and the front brakes are dragging. Another indication of dragging brakes is low gas mileage. If your mpg is less that expected, you might want to tell your mechanic. If they aren't dragging and your mpg is good, then I would consider using semi-metalic or organic pads to save your rotors.

the "fuel induction". I've never heard that term either but, they may be talking about a fuel injector cleaning. This is a nearly totally uneeded, huge money maker for many shops.

I agree this service is unneeded. just pour a bottle of fuel injection cleaner in your gas tank and save yourself some money.:2cents:



Give them the one fingered salute on this one.

:rofl: I agree with RIP 100%

I would be curious why the pads have only worn 3% of their thickness yet you're changing rotors.

Me too. sounds like more BS.....it seems like the brakes were replaced not that long ago since pads are almost brand new. if there was something wrong with the roters I would thing the garage would have noticed it when they replaced the pads.:2cents:

Regards,
JOET/CAMRY

If the pads have ever worn down to their backings or the pad wear indicator was not properly square to the rotor, the rotors will be grooved so deeply that resurfacing cannot save them. This should have been at least noticed when the pads were last changed, but not necessarily told to you (stay away from those super cheapo, 5 minute, oil change / brake jobs).

On that note, if the rotor is grooved, the new pads will break in with a raised groove across it's facing somewhere -- at this point, regardless how "good" the pads are, they must be replaced if the rotors are replaced.

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.
I was told by Toyota that my rotors were indeed warped and that this is caused by high heat.
I changed my front brakes over a year ago so I was surprised when they said that I still had 97% left in them. I tend to use the brakes quit a bit since I drive mostly in the city....
I have been hearing a squealing noise from the front 2 months after changing the brakes. I took it back to Toyota and they told me that everything was fine.
That noise finally diminished. I was told today by Toyota that they felt a "pulsation" when hitting the brakes and heard some squealing so that pushed them to check the rotors.

As for the fuel induction, I was told that they thought that my mpg in my car could improve (how could they now, they don't fill the tank!!!!).
I was suspicious from the beginning about this fuel induction thing. You all confirmed my thoughts!!!

NTB is charging $54.99/rotor and Sears is asking for $85.99/rotor.
Sears wants to charge me $35 for brake fluid exchange as well as $79.99 for fuel system cleaner.
Are these 2 operations necessary when changing rotors and pads?

Thank you once again for your assistance,
Leila

An induction cleaning is cleaning the throttle body awhich can be done in your drive way for 15 bucks or so. the rotors can warp, crack, fade,etc. I'd never go to sears or NTB. Try doing it your self if possible. Yes the dealer makes a killing on maintnece but anywhere it's done is backed by Toyota.

I was told today by Toyota that they felt a "pulsation" when hitting the brakes and heard some squealing so that pushed them to check the rotors.

The question is not weather they felt pulsation when they used the brakes while test driving your car; but rather did you feel pulsation when you hit the brakes in your car?
a good way to tell if your rotors are warped and brakes are pulsating is when you apply the brakes if you feel the brake pedal bouncing up and down rapidly, then yes your rotors are probrally warped. if the break pedal doesn't bounce up and down rapidly then your brake rotors are probrally fine.:2cents:





Sears wants to charge me $35 for brake fluid exchange as well as $79.99 for fuel system cleaner.
Are these 2 operations necessary when changing rotors and pads?


the break fluid should be changed/flushed only if it is contaminated or if it hasn't been changed in a few years.

I would pass on the fuel system cleaner. If you feel your car needs a fuel system cleaning go to any automotive store like Auto Zone, Advanced Auto, Pep Boys etc. and buy a container of fuel system cleaner and pour it into the gas tank when you have a full tank of gas in the gas tank. it is a very small bottle. do this and save yourself around $78.00 and give that garage a one finger salute....:wink: Good Luck

Regards,
JOET/CAMRY

Another important thing is rotor thickness. Did they measure it? The minimum thickness could be stamped on the rotor body. Or you may consult the manual for the correct numbers and measure it yourself.

Since you do a lot of city driving that may be the issue.


Sam

It's interesting how all these are related...

Unless you're racing, it's unlikely you'll ever be able to consistently heat the stock rotors enough to warp them with standard replacement pads even if they are worn below their minimum recommended thickness -- it's just not likely, especially in city driving where you exceed 50 mph rarely if at all -- Maybe if you are making several highway stops on a long trip and having to brake from 75 or 80 to a dead stop more than twice every 5 mins, but other than that it's really not possible to warp these things (to even the point where they need to be resufaced), and if any mechanic tells you that, you may want to consider taking a walk -- remember they only make money on labor, not so much on parts, and anyone who's ever done their own, can tell you that you can do all four wheels in an hour after the first time.

Most "pulsating pedal" issues are really (cheap) pad issues -- and think about it -- when the rotors are replaced, the pads are as well, so you'll always "think" that the new rotors were the "fix" when it was really the pads that needed replacement. A good shop should attempt to resurface the rotors first before telling you that the rotors need replacement, but alas, in most cases they would have to farm that job out, so it's cheaper to just replace them.

Just like with doctors, there are "specialists" in certain areas of autmotive repair -- sometimes it helps if you can find one for your specific issue, because the big chains like Sears, and your corner gas station may not have the right equipment, expertise, or time to give you the best job for your money.

It's interesting how all these are related...

Unless you're racing, it's unlikely you'll ever be able to consistently heat the stock rotors enough to warp them with standard replacement pads even if they are worn below their minimum recommended thickness -- it's just not likely, especially in city driving where you exceed 50 mph rarely if at all -- Maybe if you are making several highway stops on a long trip and having to brake from 75 or 80 to a dead stop more than twice every 5 mins, but other than that it's really not possible to warp these things (to even the point where they need to be resufaced), and if any mechanic tells you that, you may want to consider taking a walk -- remember they only make money on labor, not so much on parts, and anyone who's ever done their own, can tell you that you can do all four wheels in an hour after the first time.

Most "pulsating pedal" issues are really (cheap) pad issues -- and think about it -- when the rotors are replaced, the pads are as well, so you'll always "think" that the new rotors were the "fix" when it was really the pads that needed replacement. A good shop should attempt to resurface the rotors first before telling you that the rotors need replacement, but alas, in most cases they would have to farm that job out, so it's cheaper to just replace them.

Just like with doctors, there are "specialists" in certain areas of autmotive repair -- sometimes it helps if you can find one for your specific issue, because the big chains like Sears, and your corner gas station may not have the right equipment, expertise, or time to give you the best job for your money.

I agree with you SpinnerCee. I have owned a car/truck (most of them Toyotas) since 1985 and I have never had to replace the rotors because they were warped. :sunglasse only had to replace rotors if there was metal to metal contact if the pads completely wore out.:banghead:

My girlfriend had a 1988 Toyota Tercel that had to have the rotors replaced because of pulsation. the car was like that when we bought it used and once the rotors were replaced the pulsation (in the brake pedal) stopped. when I replaced the rotors I didn't replace the pads as they were practically brand new. I never new cheap/low quality pads can cause pulsation. Live and learn I guess.:p

I drove up and down Mount Washington (7 miles each way) a couple of summers ago and the brakes were pushed to their limit. even though I was driving slow and had the transmission in first gear going downhill the brakes were smoking like hell. I had to pull over a few times.:frown: hopefully the rotors didn't warp. Thank God it was a rental.:lol:

Regards,
JOET/CAMRY

A...er...a...well...uh...nope, not a mechanic but, I've seen quite a few warped rotors. A dial indicator will reveal them if you can't tell by looking. Maybe they build em tougher in Queens.

RIP: I'm not saying that rotors can't warp, but it takes severe-duty type abuse to really hurt them -- many machanics use warped rotors as a reason to replace because as you noted, that can't necessarily be seen with the naked eye, and requires a tool that even many shadetrees don't have (a dial micrometer).

There are also "cheap" rotors as well.

JOET/CAMRY also made a good point: don't let a mechanic tell you what the car you drive everyday is "doing" from a test drive -- it's also possible that rotor/pad issues will exhibit other symptoms that mimic a wheel balance issue and it's important to note that other "simple" problems like underinflated tires (or unequal inflation left-to-right) can cause brake pulsations and steering wheel pull under braking.

There are also conditions that can compromise rotors and brake systems in general -- a car that has been sitting (outside) for a long time (a year? over a winter?) may develop brake issues -- the rotors will rust -- this rust will certainly not form evenly across the rotor surface -- the first use will scrub most of this rust off, but the rotors will be pitted, and may never be perfect without at least resurfacing (consider this with a used car). Rust may also form on the pins that the caliper floats on, taking a while to regain smooth operation. Moisture can enter the brake fluid...

Thank you all for the second set of answers.
I took my car today to another mechanic in order to check out my brakes. I did not talk about the rotors. After examining the car, he told me that the rotors were seriously warped and that he could not resurface them. He also added that I did not need to change the pads because I still have on them 97%. He said that he would sand them and that he honestly did not think that they needed to be replaced.
I trusted his judgment and I have brand new rotors now.
Thank you all for your help. Once again, this forum has been very informative.

Best,
Leila

"He also added that I did not need to change the pads because I still have on them 97%. He said that he would sand them and that he honestly did not think that they needed to be replaced."

I have done this on my own cars and have not had any problems. He is sanding the surface of the pads so that the old pads now have a new surface to seat to the new rotors.

Mike