Here is the deal....about a year ago my car died while I was comming home from work. It just started to loose compression and died. I parked it came back the next day and checked the timming belt. It was find but I changed it anyway. Wouldn't start. So I took it to a shop...they were idiots....they ended up putting three different relays on it and inertia switch, the computer on the car...with no prevail...then they told me no compression on #1 cyl finaly I told them to stop...I parked the car for a year..

Now I've got enough time to get it running again...I decide to change the head gasket. So I do ..I look at the old one and it looks like crap..So anyway I go to start it up and it turns over and a cloud of white smoke..I mean big time..ok i was upset..but I took the head off again cleaned both the block and head realy realy good. Get a new gasket and bolts again. Put it all back together..and again same thing. So I tried bars stop leak for heads.....it worked for maybe a day...so I tried once more...still no good...

I did note some symptoms though...If i take the radaitor cap off and leat the enormus amount of pressure..it runs ok still with smoke. Now if I shut the car off and fill up the radaitor...it won't start for about 4 min of crancking..and smoke...but once it turns over it will run. now while running i put more water in the rad. and engine bogs down..so I give it gas and it starts to overheat.
Finaly I have totaly removed the head from the vehicle no manifolds on it. It had a damn good seal on the head, had to push pretty hard for it to come off. So I think the gasket job was ok. Is my head cracked? I looked and didn't see any noticeable ones. The block seems to be holding the water and oil..Oh Yea the oil was milky bad....
If the intake gasket was leaking the water into the intake...would I have the same symptoms? I noticed a big build up of the bars stuff where the gasket and intake is suppost to cover one of the holes. Does water fill the head cavities of just have chambers in it? Because it looked like the water was in the chambers if you look frome the holes on the intake side.
I can get a used head for a 100 bucks or take my old to a machince shop for 30 bucks...should I just buy the head??
Any suggestions would be nice thanks

Sorry about the long post
Is there anyway to flush the block out while the head is off? I know I need to get that water out of the block.

Have you changed the oil?

If you had a leak it is very possible that there is a lot of water in your crankcase... which is a good reason you are seeing smoke. You may have repaired the leak, but you didn't remove the water.

If your oil is milky that is a good sign that there is coolant in there... if it was sitting for a long time with water in it you could have some other problems to worry about.

Yes, a leak on the intake gasket can get into the head. If the leak is between the coolant passage and the intake port... it just sucks it right in.

Another thought is that the head may be warped. If not torqued correctly it can lead to more problems. Maybe it doesn't seal as well as you think it does.

Yes I did change the oil. The coolant still comes out the tailpipe. I also torqued it correctly when I put it on. I am wondering if there is a crack in the head that is causing my problem. Should I get the used head and try it with all the new gaskets or should I take my old one to the machine shop? Anothere thing...I never saw the engine leak around the head...not water at all, even when it went out.

Take your head to a machine shop and have them check it for cracks and to make sure it is not warped.

I want to save money of course. Maybe I should just buy the used head, I'm out 30 bucks just for them to look at it.If it has to be machined I will pay more. Kinda makes me mad the car ran soo good, purred like a kitten. I always changed all filters and fluids. Engine has 112000 on it.

Would suck to drop $100 into a new head and still have your problem.

Do you have any experience identifyiing small cracks in a head? If not, try and get a friend to take a look. Sometimes they are hard to see.

The only way coolany gets into the exhaust is through that head gasket or the intake ports.

Sounds like you had used some sort of adhesive when you put the head on before... just because it was glued down tight does not mean it was sitting flush. It could be warped. You said the engine has been overheating, so who knows.

If you opt for the new/used head, how do you know it is good? Are the valves in it any good? WIll it require machining or is it ready to mount? If it has some sort of warranty and you want to get everything over with then you should be able to swap things out ok... but I'd recommend trying to identify your problem instead of just hoping it goes away by swapping a head. Maybe the problem is with the block? Less likely, but possible.

Maybe if the machine shop tells you that your head is warped or cracked they will gie you a discount on any work the new head needs.

The cost of machine shop services is part of the price for doing the job right. Taking short cuts can lead to higher costs. What kind of guarantee would you get with a used head? You would have to make sure the surface is correct and that there are no cracks in the used head. Did you replace the head studs? Did you use a straight edge and feeler guages to check the block?

Here is my plan of action now. I am going to take the old head to the machine shop on friday to see what they can find out. I am hopeing that they find out what is wrong. I have a slight feeling that it might have been the intake gasket leaking, probably not, but just a feeling. The guy that is going to sell me the used head garuntees that it will work. And no I haven't used a feeler to check the block. I did examine it pretty well and haven't discovered any problems there. Now I am pretty sure that the new gasket I put on the head was correctly installed. I saw no signs of leaking on the gasket. it was sealed realy good. I used no sealant on it when I installled it just the gasket some new head bolts and proper torque specs. I suppose when and if I get the used head I should have a machine shop look it over too. Thank you everyone for your input:)

A straight edge and feeler guage is the only way to check the mating surface on the block for warpage. I don't know of anyone who can measure a gap of .003" by just looking at it.

You see you learn something everyday....I will have to check that out...I've heard your head is more liklely to warp than the block.

That is true the head is most likely to distort. Places where usually the block distorts is between cylinders. I have seen this area as a low spot on many blocks, but usually within spec. I have never seen one where I could slide a .003" feeler guage between the straight edge and the block.

Leakage from the intake gasket is very possible... you couldn't tell by the condition of the gasket though?

Out of curiousity... just how fast was the system losing coolant? Was it a fast drain and constantly had to be refilled? How much water was in the oil?

Without looking, I am not certain how the coolant is routed through the head, but I suppose there is the possibility that the head could be cracked somewhere that you can't see... somewhere that is allowing coolant to escape. It doesn't necessarily have to be a crack on the mating surface... though that is usually the case.

I believe you mentioned the car was overheating... if it runs too hot, no telling what might go wrong.

No the car seemed to hold coolant in the radiator. It wasn't loosing it realy fast...the smoke would stop after a few min. I would still have to add water. I did notice on the intake manifold a bubble of the stop leak stuff in the center of the intake....wish I had a camera....also on the head you could tell it was leaking into the inside ports and there was build up aroung the bolts. It was running hot when I put some throttle to it but would cool back down on idle. Still lots of pressure in the radator though. Would you get the pressure when the intake gasket is bad? Also when it first went out it didn't overheat....and when I changed the H gasket the first time the first cyclinder had water in it, and the past two times changing it there was none...oil was just slightly milky. Thanks

Well maybe your maounting surfaces are ok. The water in the cylinder could be from a leak at the intake... but it also could have gotten in there if you didn't drain the block before you pulled the head. Some people pull the head and coolant drops right down in there.

Anyway... I wouldn't be surprised if the intake was sucking in the water. As for the pressure build up, I would suspect that is a result of the stop leak you added... probably plugged up the radiator.

So do you think I might be wasting my time, to just try and change the head, intake, exhaust gaskets? See if that fixes the problem. Or spend 30 bucks at a machine shop and maybe 150 for the head? I only paid like 35 bucks for all the gaskets?

Cleaned the intake side of the head tonight after work. The condition of the two center intake head bolts was pretty bad. There was a big build up of what almost looked like rust, with a whiteish-yellow tint to the center intake bolts. I also noticed that the two center intake ports seemed to be pretty clean, not a lot of black residue. Really clean around the valves on those two ports. Also on the center cylinder domes on the head...I notest that the collor was almost a rust color. The first and last intake and domes looked alright, domes being where the valves are, black residue color.
I also checked out the water ports with a high powered light, looked for about two hours trying to find a crack, but was unsecessfull. I looked inside the intake and exhaust ports and was unable to see a crack, everything seemed to be in pretty good condition. Also checked around the lifters and the whole top surface of the head and was unable to find a crack. Wish I had a camera to take a picture, because I am almost certain that my problem is comming from my intake gasket. The signs are just there and my gut feeling says that is what it is.
Do you absolutley have to use band new head bolts on this head...kinda pricey...my old ones were only in there for a short time almost brand new.?
Also on the exhaust gasket, which surface do I put the metal towards? The exhaust manifold? Would apreciate, and have apreciated any and all comments:)

I wouldn't worry too much about the new head bolts. Your new ones shouldn't have been stretched out much yet. Some people would insist on changing them, but I wouldn't worry about it. They are still new.
Usually the holes on the exhaust gasket willl only line up one way... maybe you have something generic that fits both ways though... I would think the metal side would go toward the engine... but I doubt it is a big deal either way. I have never had an exhaust gasket get stuck on my escort.

If you put it back on and all is well, consider getting an oil additive that might do a little something for some of the damage done by the water.

Well no go, guess my gut feeling was wrong. Put all new gaskets onto the head, intake and exhaust manifolds. Put it all back together filled it with water, tried to start it and it shot water out of the radiator, without the cap on. Guess the head is realy cracked, or worse. I will get a new head slap it on and find out the block was cracked. If the block is cracked it must be inside...because there is no water comming out of the block. Guess I will have to take the head to a machine shop to rule it out. Anyways good nite and sleep tight.:)

Well it shot water out the radiator... but is there water in the oil?
It is still possible your cooling system has blockages... you siad you had been using some stop leak stuff.

If the water is staying out of the engine, then problem solved. Now you have a new problem in your cooling system to address.

If you do find water in the oil you will have to ask yourself whether it was there before you changed the gaskets or not.

No I am pretty sure that there is water in the oil...and its blowing out white smoke out the tail pipe.

Right... but what I was asking was if you changed the oil again this last time you replaced the gaskets on the head. If you didn't change the oil, then there would still be water in there from the leak.

mightymoose 22-

How many times can you torque the head bolts before they are stretched out of spec? The head on the motor in question has been removed and reinstalled a couple of times.

-Kimberly

stepheneking-

Ask the machine shop if they can give you a discount on a gasket set since you are going to need a new one.

Welllllll... you aren't "supposed to" reuse them at all. It is my own personal feeling that since they are still new and the engine has not been run very much with the new bolts in there that you are ok to reuse them.
After being torqued thebolts are suppsedly a bit weaker... how much weaker I don't know. I have reused head bolts before for similar reasons and never had a problem.
To me it is like changing your oil every 3000 miles... yes, it might be a good preventative thing to do, but isn't absolutely necessary. There are other factors that can be considered too.

It's Sarurday. I just noticed your thread on Friday about the water shooting out of the radiator with the cap off. This is normal after refilling the cooling system. It is air pockets in the head. I just refilled my cooling system after a flush and mine gushed out of the radiator neck, too. Let the system stabilize and get up to temp before you draw any conclusions. Also, with the head off, you can detect a crack in the combusion chambers or valve ports by pouring alcohol (rubbing) into them. Make sure the head is dry before you do this. I think you'd be all right on reusing the head bolts. Just retorqe them to specs in a criss-cross fashion.

Wow thanks for all the input. I really am unsure about why the exhaust is still blowing out white smoke. The engine fires up and runs good jut white smoke... I retorked everything properly......but I do hear bubbles in the overflow when it is running you can see them too...a sure bad sign I guess....or maybe I need a new radiator cap. And no I didn't change the oil yet...I think I am still getting fluid in the oil.Thanks a bunch for everyones input:)

Bubbles in the overflow... I can't quite make sense of that unless your system is not completely filled. Air bubbles should find their way to the top of the radiator, but I can't imagine the air getting sucked through to the overflow.

A couple things. Since you know you had water in the engine you will have to change the oil. Until you do there is no way to know if the smoke you are seeing is from water that entered before you changed the gaskets or after. Also, when you get the engine running be sure to add coolant through the overflow and not just by filling the radiator... make sure the rad cap has a good seal though.

One more thought... all the extra mosisture in the exhaust may have ruined your O2 sensor. That may need to be replaced as well. I am not sure of a way to test it though.

Bubbles in the cooling system can be caused by a headgasket that is not sealing between the cumbustion chamber and the cooling jacket.

Water in the oil will destroy bearings. Do not run the car with water in the oil.
White smoke coming from the tail pipe is indicative of a failed headgasket or a cracked head.
What did the machine shop say about the condition of your head?

weather you re-use your old head or get one from the bone yard have a machine shop go over it. My head did the #4
intake valve seat drop so for $150 they replaced the seat W
/a stainless steel one, reground all the valves, cleaned it
checked the cam for wear. Then buy a fel-pro gasket set
w/head bolts and you should be good to go.

Hey guys me again a lot has happened since I started to work on the darn car. Now I'm in a different state. Anyway got the head off the car again.....going to take it to the machine shop sometime this week to have it checked out....none of my replacement of gaskets fixed my problem.....but my question is.....

I've got the head totaly off the car...exhaust and intake sides off too.....is there a plug to drain my block at all? I can't seem to find one.....I realy think I should drain my block out....what do you think.....let me know if you know of a drain plug....THANKS:grinyes:

One of those things(drain plugs in blocks or rads..) not a good idea/little benefit to touch in the first place. You can get almost all the coolant out by pulling off the lower rad hose. And if you are careful and have a good pan you don't spill much anyway. The lttle bad coolant that does get left in the block/rad mixes easily with the far greater volume of what you have to add to the system anyway.

You can take out the plug with an allen wrench from under the exhaust manifold. It is toward the front of the engine and under the manifold.
I always drain from here when I am going to remove the head, otherwise there tends to be coolant that flows into the cylinders when the head comes off.

Hey guys, looked and looked and couldn't find the drain plug you say is under the exhaust manifold. I have the head totaly off, along with the exhaust and intake manifolds. Still can't find no drail plug of any sort. Not a big deal I guess. I figure I can drain most of the coolant out of the bottom raid hose.

I looked at the water pump and it seems to be ok. What do you all think should I replace it or just leave it alone? Its not leaking and the bearings seem to be in good condition.

I also found out some good news on my head, I guess its good news being that its not cracked. The machine shop pressure tested it and said it passed. They did say it was worped pretty good though. So they are going to resurface it for me. I have heard people say that they start to burn oil after having a resurface done, what do you all think?

Also how should I go about chainging the oil and coolant...any special things I should know when I go to slap the head back onto the block? Someone said use some stuff called MOTOR UP? Know anything about it?

All and any information would be very helpfull. I realy appreciate all the advise you've all given so fat THANKS:grinyes:

Come on guys any advice? Also will the two metal dowels cause a problem since I had the head milled. Or do you think everything will be ok? Let me know I would appreciate it. Thanks again

Everything should go on fine if the resurfacing was done right. There really isn't much more to worry about if you aren't also changing the water pump. Just put it back together then change oil and coolant as you normally would.

Hey just thought I would let you all know that every thing worked great. I put everything together and she fired right up. I even drove it to KY and back to MI about 1000 miles round trip.
Now I was just wondering the thing has a rough Idle when in park. You really don't notice it when your driving just when you come to a stop. Also the check engine light is on. I was thinking that it was probably due to a cloged up o2 sensor due to the fact I had all that smuck on it running it with a blown head gasket. What are your thoughts? I can't find any vacume leaks...could it be the trottle posistion sensor? Would appreciate all the help you can give......And THanks For All The Help Everyone Has Given Me:grinyes:

Vacuum leak
Fuel filter
Timing
Plugs/wires

Disconnect your battery for 15 minutes. It will make the CEL go out and should reset the computer to default settings, but the computer will "relearn" for lack of a better word, your new conditions. If it is a soft code and has occurred only once it will go off and not come back on. If it is a hard code and ongoing the CEL will come on again. You are right about the O2 sensor. It may have been comtaminated while you were having head problems.