Well I am going to post how I found out about all of the specs on my car and the hard truth.

First off I will address the horsepower and torque issue. Yes, Chrysler released the numbers 174HP and 200 ft/lbs or torque for my car. I had always questioned these numbers because it seemed like it pulled a lot harder than a car that runs those numbers. I just let it go and accepted that. I then had an incident with the water pump in my car, to make a long story short because of the situation I was not able to change it myself and took the car to someone my mom told me does a great job. Needless to say they replaced the water pump, and a motor mount, and a supposed leaky intercooler hose. Well they also screwed up the timing and the car was running funny. It would hesitate under hard acceleration and it didn't pull like it used to. At first I expected the worst and worried that the bearings in the turbo were going and causing the impeller to catch. So I took the car to the dealership this time and had them run some tests to find out what was wrong. it turned out they swapped my Magnacore wires with some cheapies that one wasn't even sparking. That was the cause for the hesitation. Now their tests pulled up something interesting. As far as I had found my turbo was set to bleed at around 12 PSI. They gave me a paper showing that I was running at 13.8 PSI and the turbo was fine. This made me question my numbers once again. 13.8 PSI and only 174HP? Once again I just forgot about it. Later on I met up with a guy looking at buying a 1989 Daytona Turbo Z. I told him to go with it, it should have the same set-up my car does. Oddly enough after looking at the car it had the same engine sure enough and there was a Garrett T03 under the hood as well, but the car also had a smaller intercooler than I did, and it was only pumping 7 PSI. This is what that car is stock, but yet it shares another thing with my car, the numbers 174HP and 200 ft/lbs of torque. At this point I am thinking alright, either his numbers are wrong or mine are. I was determined to find out so I started asking around. Well I ended talking to a tech at a Chrysler dealership. He owns a 1986 Shelby GLHS. He has the 2.5L and has replaced the old turbo with the Garrett T03 and added the intercooler from an 89' Turbo Z. His car was quite similar to mine and he was pushing 14 PSI. Now the 2.5 was the weaker if the two options and he had an automatic. He showed me his dyno and I about hit the floor. He was getting 205 HP and 225 ft/lbs or torque to the wheels! This pissed me off, I am thinking alright I have a manual, the better engine, a bigger intercooler, and I am running pretty much the same, I should at least be pulling the same numbers as he is. He agreed, though he didn't believe I was running 14 PSI, so I pulled it in and had him run the tests and sure enough 13.9 PSI this time. Logically I should be putting 205 HP and 225 ft/lbs or torque to the ground if not a little more. Though I have been reserved and never claimed that it was to the wheels.

As for the boost pressure, I didn't start thinking about modding my car u until recently. So I went back to the guy that runs the Shelby GLHS and asked him about mods and he rambled off a ton of different things I could do, and amidst the rambling he said that I could always just drive the boost up to 30 PSI and have some fun. I looked at him and said, haha, bullshit. He said nope, people do it all the time with that engine on the stock internals, it just requires a lot of tuning, and the car is no longer really streetable. This sounded cool to me but I wasn’t sure about it until I met another guy that mods these cars all the time and has showed me some sweet stuff I can do to my car. I asked him about it and he said that I could do 30 PSI on the stock internals as well, no further reinforcement, no crank replacement, no head change all that jazz. Of course I am thinking that this would be cool, but I am thinking the wear and tear on the engine would be pretty bad and that people only would do this for a race setup. I then asked some guys at my local performance shop about this as well, and that said the same. They don't work on many cars with that engine but they know it can handle 30 pounds of boost. Sweet, I'll never do it anyway.

Here are a few things for you guys to chew on:

First a few videos. The first two are of a 10 sec K-car. As I understand he is running the same 2.2L I have. The third on is of a 12 sec GTC, this is what you can do with very little modification.

http://polygon.pgnx.net/LeBaron K.wmv

http://polygon.pgnx.net/LeBaron K.avi

http://polygon.pgnx.net/LeBaron GTC.avi

Now here are some pics of the car. I tried to get one of the turbo but it is hidden behind the intake.

http://polygon.pgnx.net/engine.jpg

http://polygon.pgnx.net/wheel.jpg

http://polygon.pgnx.net/angle.jpg

If you have any more questions, feel free to post and I will answer them as best I can.

EDIT:

I was just over at the Celica forum and noticed that my PM was posted there. Let me just clarify a few things there. Yes, 30 PSI is a lot when you are talking about consumer based cars, but the amount of boost does not necessarily determine how long it takes for a turbo to spool up, mainly it is the size of the impeller and turbo. Some turbos were meant for better boost at low speeds, small impeller, and some were meant for better boost at high speeds, large impeller. An example of this is cars designed to run on the salt flats for land speed records. I have seen some that run quad turbo setups boosting 40 PSI per turbo. Yes it takes a long time for them to spool because they were made to attain high speeds not fast acceleration, sort of like having taller or shorter gearing. On the other hand you can have a pro stock drag car that runs a turbo boosting around 40 PSI as well that pulls 7s and 6s in the 1/4 mile.

I am pretty sure that my engine can handle 30 PSI, but we are talking a few weekend racing events before the engine would need to be rebuilt, but it is possible.

Just a little more info for ya'.

Polygon: Thanks for the info. I'm really impressed with the videos. However, like most people, I'm the type that doesn't believe without legitimate proof.

You said that the owner of the shop handed you a slip showing that you were boosting 13.9; could you please scan this? Also you mentioned that you went up on the rack to get dyno'd; what did you run? And can you scan that slip as well.

I still find it hard to believe that ANY car can boost 30 on stock internals. Do you have any sources that justify this claim besides that word of people that you've encountered?

Sorry if it seems like I'm shooting you down, but I've never heard of any car that can boost that high using stock internals.

-Ray

Originally posted by kuya1284
You said that the owner of the shop handed you a slip showing that you were boosting 13.9; could you please scan this? Also you mentioned that you went up on the rack to get dyno'd; what did you run? And can you scan that slip as well.

Yeah, I was able to find the slip showing that it's boosting at 13PSI and as soon as Neutrino finds the adapter and USB cable for this scanner I'll scan them in. As for the dyno, it wasn't my car that was dynoed:

Originally posted by Polygon
Well I ended talking to a tech at a Chrysler dealership. He owns a 1986 Shelby GLHS. He has the 2.5L and has replaced the old turbo with the Garrett T03 and added the intercooler from an 89' Turbo Z. His car was quite similar to mine and he was pushing 14 PSI. Now the 2.5 was the weaker if the two options and he had an automatic. He showed me his dyno and I about hit the floor. He was getting 205 HP and 225 ft/lbs or torque to the wheels! This pissed me off, I am thinking alright I have a manual, the better engine, a bigger intercooler, and I am running pretty much the same, I should at least be pulling the same numbers as he is. He agreed, though he didn't believe I was running 14 PSI, so I pulled it in and had him run the tests and sure enough 13.9 PSI this time. Logically I should be putting 205 HP and 225 ft/lbs or torque to the ground if not a little more. Though I have been reserved and never claimed that it was to the wheels.

I still find it hard to believe that ANY car can boost 30 on stock internals. Do you have any sources that justify this claim besides that word of people that you've encountered?

Nope, I have tried to find some online sources to prove this but I haven't found any yet. It is surprising how little information is out there about my car, and how much of it is misinformation. I will say though, you do remember my comment about the guy in a GTC running 9s in the 1/4, guess how he was doing it. He was running close to 30PSI. Thing was he had changed all the major parts in it after learning the hard way. He was able to run at that boost pressure for about two weekends of racing before he was doing an engine rebuild, so then he decided to get some heavier parts in there to take the stress, but he did do it for two whole weekends.

Sorry if it seems like I'm shooting you down, but I've never heard of any car that can boost that high using stock internals.

-Ray

Nah, I'm happy to provide information and answer questions. I'm sure I would be doing the same if I were in your shoes. Just remember it has taken me about five years to find all this information out about my car. That is the main reason I am so adamant about it.

Oh, and DragonKnight, My engine is a Chrysler engine and my Turbo is made my Garrett, there isn't a part of my powertrain or drivetrain that is madeby Mitsubishi. The GTC's that came with the 2.5L stage 1 turbo had a Mitsubishi turbo on them, I thought the engine was but I have been told by many people that it was a Chrysler engine as well. The LeBarons have very little in common with the DSM setups.

I have found some new information if anyone cares. There were four GTCs offered in 1989. I will list them from fastest to slowest.

1. 2.2L I4, Turbo, Intercooled, Five speed manual.

2. 2.2L I4, Turbo, Three speed automatic.

3. 2.5L I4, Turbo, Five speed manual.

4. 2.5L I4, Turbo, Three speed automatic.

Now the numbers listed for number 2 on our list are, guess what, 174HP 200 ft/lbs of torque. That car runs 7 PSI of boost max with no intercooler. It couldn't run higher boost without one. There is NO way that my GTC and that GTC run the same numbers.

Hi

just to clafify. your posts states that your confused as to how you can make 174hp at 13.8psi. well it doesnt. it makes 174hp at 12psi. 12 is the stock boost from the factory. and they make 175lbs-ft in 87 until chrysler beefed the trannys up some.
these engines make 7hp per 1psi. and the TII's have a T04 not a T03 as on 1984-1987 cars. max boost for T3 turbos is 20psi with an intercooler with 21being the max boost for the Mitsu TEH04. again with an intercooler[but they generally run out of steam aroud 17-18psi] T4's will run up to 28-30psi but you need race gas and a decent interoolcer.

You wont be able to run 30psi on your stock set up. your going to burn out your pistons and do some serious damage. 1st your fuel pump isnt good for that sort of pressure, even if you upgrade your fuel pump, you will need at least a 5th and/or even a 6th injector for that sort of pressure, and a bigger turbo. atleast a T3/T4 hybrid if not a S60-70.
Not to mention that your intercooler isnt up to the task of 30psi either.

Gary Donovan runs 33psi in his Reliant. Read up on what he has done to get it there. its all stock parts. but not stock interms of setup.

dont want to bum you out.. or say your a lier.. im just trying to save you a motor ;O)

even at 24psi with your stock intercooler, your still putting down good numbers. and remember. these motors are know for hp. they are know for their torque!

a 2.5 turbo with a mitsu turbo thats been intercooled and a 5th injector installed @ 19psi Butch Nordstrom was able coax 218hp and 306lbs-ft..
yes.. 300+lbs-ft. :D

again, if you havent already been. www.thedodgegarage.com is by far
THE place to learn about these engines and their potential.

the biggest upgrade of them all? a full 3" exhaust system! :D
Bernard

Originally posted by lanosx
Just to clafif, your posts states that your confused as to how you can make 174hp at 13.8psi. well it doesnt. it makes 174hp at 12psi. 12 is the stock boost from the factory. and they make 175lbs-ft in 87 until chrysler beefed the trannys up some.
these engines make 7hp per 1psi. and the TII's have a T04 not a T03 as on 1984-1987 cars. max boost for T3 turbos is 20psi with an intercooler with 21being the max boost for the Mitsu TEH04. again with an intercooler[but they generally run out of steam aroud 17-18psi] T4's will run up to 28-30psi but you need race gas and a decent interoolcer.

1. Stock I have heard 11PSI, 12PSI, and 13PSI. My car was stock and I never changed anything. My max boost was close to 14PSI. I even raced the guy in the GLHS and won. How do you explain that then? He is lighter. He should have won if my car was only putting out 174HP and 200 ft/lbs of torque. I have learned not to trust stock numbers from Chrysler. They have downplayed a lot of their cars for insurance purposes.

2. From 1984 - 1988 any car that had a Turbo I was equipped with a 2.2L I4 with a Mitsubishi turbo non-intercooled. Then in 1989 it was switched to a 2.5L with the same non-intercooled turbo. Also in 1989 the Turbo II was introduced. Any car that had the Turbo II was equipped with a 2.2L I4 with an intercooled Garrett T03 turbo and new for 1989 was the A-555 Getrag forged five speed manual. Then in 1990 the Turbo II was dropped for the Turbo IV which used the 2.2L I4 with a Garrett VNT intercooled turbo and the A-568 transmission, an A-555 with better syncros. The T04 was never used on a production Chrysler. It is a track turbo and is near useless on the street. It takes too long to spool up. The T04 is good for boost levels beyond 30PSI and the T03 is good for boost up to 25PSI.

You wont be able to run 30psi on your stock set up. your going to burn out your pistons and do some serious damage. 1st your fuel pump isnt good for that sort of pressure, even if you upgrade your fuel pump, you will need at least a 5th and/or even a 6th injector for that sort of pressure, and a bigger turbo. atleast a T3/T4 hybrid if not a S60-70.
Not to mention that your intercooler isnt up to the task of 30psi either.

I never said the intercooler could handle it. I know the stock one is only good for the stock boost, same for the fuel system. I only said the internals cold take it. Perhaps only for a few runs, but last time I checked top fuel drag cars are rebuilding their engines after every run, which is the norm when you get into a non-streetable car. Perhaps you should read what I typed up there again.

Gary Donovan runs 33psi in his Reliant. Read up on what he has done to get it there. its all stock parts. but not stock interms of setup.

I have been to the Dodge Garage many times. If you have been there, perhaps you have heard of Dempsey Bowling? I know him personally and has helped me a lot in information on how to mod my car. I know my stuff, you brought back a post from the dead that you have no idea what it was about. I posted this for a group of Celica drivers who thought my car was a bucket of shit and couldn't hope to beat their GTSs. Don't correct me if you don't know about it yourself, you seem to be the misinformed one.

You dont have to get defensive, i wasnt attacking you. and im not a dodge hater. but you have your facts a bit jumbled, not me.

1984-1987 were garrets
1988 to 1992 were mitsu's
91-92 r/ts where garrets.

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_turbo.html

yes i have been to gary's site.. i have been a visiter there since he
1st bought his reliant way back when he was running with a full interior
and a modest set up.

the a-555 [getrag] was new in '87 it was made to deal with the increase in power of the [then new] shelby Z's TII engine and to allow for a more "agressive" launch. the a-568 came after, it was Chrysler take on the a-555 and labeled by many to be a more superior tranny than the 555.

There are also a lot of things that could explain the increase in your boost over stock. from exhaust work, to porting .. you could even be experiencing boost creep.

Bernard

Originally posted by lanosx
You dont have to get defensive, i wasnt attacking you. and im not a dodge hater. but you have your facts a bit jumbled, not me.

I am not getting defensive, and I don't want you to think I am. I just don't like being corrected when I'm not wrong. I think perhaps we are both right to an extent.

Yes, the Turbo II was brought about in 1986 in the Dodge line of cars. It was a first for any of the Chrysler cars in 1989.

Yes, the A-555 was first used in 1986 in the Dodge line as well for the Turbo II, but it was a first in 1989, once again, for the Chrysler line. The A-568 was used on any car with the Turbo IV and Turbo III; this included the Chrysler LeBaron GTC, Dodge Daytona Iroc R/T, and Dodge Spirit R/T. The A-568 was an A-555 with better syncros, as I said before.

I know for a fact that the Turbo II used a Garrett T03. I thought it was a T04 when I first got the car, then I saw one pulled off a GTC TII, sure enough, it was a Garrett T03. All the 2.5L TI cars were Mitsubishi turbos and the 2.2L TI were Garrett. As far as I have been able to find out, the TIII was a TII with a DOHC Lotus head and the TIV was a VNT Garrett designed turbo.

Also, those boost test were run at the dealership with techs that I knew that were turbo FWD Mopar enthusiasts like myself. They would have told me if it were experiencing boost creep and the test would have showed that. I told you, the car was STOCK no porting, no extruding, no exhaust replacement.

EDIT:

I just looked at the Dodge Garage link you posted and it just backed up everything I said. Chrysler NEVER used a Garrett T04 on any production car they ever built. It has no streetable application besides in a sequential turbo system. Yes, I was wrong about the Turbo I, but I am not about the rest of it.

Originally posted by Polygon


I am not getting defensive, and I don't want you to think I am. I just don't like being corrected when I'm not wrong. I think perhaps we are both right to an extent.

Im glad you see it this way, i wasnt trying to come off as a "know it all". just shareing my views.

Yes, the Turbo II was brought about in 1986 in the Dodge line of cars. It was a first for any of the Chrysler cars in 1989.

I guess this is there marketing gets things confusing. I could swear the redesigned [87] Daytona Shelby Z was a Chrysler. Infact, my friends dad's "Z" is. again marketing.

Yes, the A-555 was first used in 1986 in the Dodge line as well for the Turbo II, but it was a first in 1989, once again, for the Chrysler line. The A-568 was used on any car with the Turbo IV and Turbo III; this included the Chrysler LeBaron GTC, Dodge Daytona Iroc R/T, and Dodge Spirit R/T. The A-568 was an A-555 with better syncros, as I said before.

Okay, i see where your comming from, your taking specifics about brands. i thought you were talking "in general" about the tranny and the TII motor for that matter.. okay. its all figured out now.


I know for a fact that the Turbo II used a Garrett T03. I thought it was a T04 when I first got the car, then I saw one pulled off a GTC TII, sure enough, it was a Garrett T03. All the 2.5L TI cars were Mitsubishi turbos and the 2.2L TI were Garrett. As far as I have been able to find out, the TIII was a TII with a DOHC Lotus head and the TIV was a VNT Garrett designed turbo.

agreed.

Also, those boost test were run at the dealership with techs that I knew that were turbo FWD Mopar enthusiasts like myself. They would have told me if it were experiencing boost creep and the test would have showed that. I told you, the car was STOCK no porting, no extruding, no exhaust replacement.

To explain, i wasnt stating fact, but offering ideas as to why, your website stated you were puzzled as to how you could get 174 from 13.8psi.. and i offered that they came with 12 from the facotry. but in '89 they had a 2.5in flange, perhaps this might explain the increase. is your exhaust of the same diameter when new? again, just offering ideas.

EDIT:
I just looked at the Dodge Garage link you posted and it just backed up everything I said. Chrysler NEVER used a Garrett T04 on any production car they ever built. It has no streetable application besides in a sequential turbo system. Yes, I was wrong about the Turbo I, but I am not about the rest of it. [/B]

I think we were on different levels of thought. i was talking about "in general" You were talking specifically for "chrysler only". i see this now. its all good.

Bernard