97 GrCaravan - Start, run 3 seconds, stall (gauges dead) then "fixes" itself... HELP!

I have a bizarre problem with my 97 Grand Caravan that I hope someone might be able to help with... this happens intermittantly, might go a couple of days between occurances, might go a couple of weeks:

Occasionally, when starting the vehicle either cold or warm, when the key is turned to the "On" position, the LEDs and the gauges will be dead, as will the overhead display for mileage, etc. When this occurs, and ONLY when this occurs, when I attempt to start it, it will start but dies after about 3 seconds of running. I can try over and over again to no avail. It has to sit awhile and then it will "fix" itself....gauges come alive, fires right up, stays running like nothing ever happened. Sometimes it will "fix" itself like this within 5 minutes, might take 2 hours, might need to be overnight but there's absolutely nothing that will help till it's ready to come alive ... ??? I've even had it towed to a shop but by the time it got there, it acted just fine. :banghead:

In dealing with this over several months, here are a few things I have noticed:

1) When I turn the key to the "On" position and I see that the gauges and LEDs are dead, of course I know it won't be kind enough to start for me, but I can hear the fuel pump power up and the fuel system is pressurized ... it DOES start but apparently runs only on the existing fuel pressure in the system (that's my guess) and when that's gone (2-3 seconds), it stalls.

2) If I need to be out and about in the car and make a stop (or several), I'll turn the engine off, but I won't turn the key all the way to the "Off" position. Rather, I'll back the key off only as far as the "On" position (so the engine isn't running but the odometer LED stays lit) and lock the vehicle with the remote and take it with me. When I come back, it never fails to start ... I don't know if that's a clue or if it's just happenstance... :screwy:

3) Twice while driving, the gauges and LEDs have gone dead, but the engine never stalled, it ran fine. I was hesitant to turn it off till I got back home for fear it would leave me stranded. However, both times, before I got to my destination the LEDs and the gauges came back alive like it had never happened.

4) This has nothing to do with battery power or the starter ... it never fails to crank over normally.

5) One shop run by a good friend thought it sounded like an ignition switch problem (which seems perfectly logical) so they replaced the ignition electrical switch and the tumbler ... didn't help.

I've spoken with Service Managers at 2 dealers and described the situation. Both of them said my description of the symptom makes no sense at all because the gauges and LEDs are controlled by the Body Control Module which has nothing to do with the fuel pump and/or engine running. While I agree, that doesn't change the fact that this IS what is happening, that the non-running condition and the gauge thing always happen simultaneously.

I know I'm not the only guy that this has happened to ... another friend of mine bought a used '97 Grand Caravan back in mid '05. He told me a similar thing happened to his a few times, but he fixed it!

"You fixed it?" I asked.
"Yep, fixed it permanently" he replied.
"No way!"
"Yes, way!"
"And how'd you do that?"
"I sold it..."
" ...oh"

Well, I might like to hold onto mine, so is there ANYONE out there that has had a similar problem and has found a fix? ... Please?!

Hello PADA,
Before going any further the one who discovered this little gauge smacking trick is P. Petruzzi, he shared it with every one and it sure has saved us all a lot cash! If you are out there, Thanks again Paul!
Pada, you are definetly NOT the only one who has had or IS having this problem, many many of us have battled it, and of course Chrysler knows nothing about the problem - BALONEY -, anyway, if you search this site for "intermittent start problem" (see below for direct link) you will find that in most cases one of two possiblities exist, either resetting the IOD fuse in the power distribution box or a cold / cracked solder joint on the instrument cluster printed circuit board. In July of 05 I pulled my circuit board, resoldered the main connector pins and have never seen the problem since. A quick way to check if indeed it is a cold solder joint is to: when you turn your key to the "on" position (not "start") and the gauges and such are dead, leave the key in the on position and smack the dash with your fists on both sides of the steering wheel above the advisory lights and watch for everything to come back to life, (no kidding) my hunch is they will. Some people who are having similar but not exactly the same symptoms are finding that pulling the IOD fuse in the power distribution center for a few minutes and then reinstalling it seems to correct the problem, hence the dash smack will get you in the right direction. If indeed you find that you need to pull the instrument cluster it is a relatively easy job if you are so inclined, I took some digital pics of mine during the disassembly and repair, due to the size of the pics and the number of people having this problem my wife let me put them on her web site - ingriddijkers.com from their go to the links page and scroll down to the "caravan pics" link near the bottom of the page, I hope the IOD fuse reset fixes your problem as it is faster but this fix isnt difficult either just takes a bit more time - if searching for the intermitt start dosnt work you can also search for posts from me as i have responed to this problem many times as many of us have... one of these two corrective actions will fix your problem,
sorry for the long winded response,
I'll see if I can resond back with a quick link to the pics, (found it - see below)
best of luck, pls keep us posted on how it turns out, and if there is anything else we can help with
Bob White
pentabob
Plymouth, Mich
98 caravan sport

pada here is the link to the pics, you can click on them to enlarge them:
http://ingriddijkers.com/CaravanPics.html

here the link on this site I mentioned above about this problem, there are 2 pages:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2015820

WOW ... quick reply!

Thanks VERY much, Bob! Actually, I've tried the Dash Whack Procedure, but I did it with the flat of my hand all along the top of the dash from the left to the right as far as the center vents and it didn't make a difference. Maybe I just didn't do it firmly enough, but I was afraid I'd crack that black plastic and I'd be sorry. The symptom hasn't surfaced for about 10 days so I'm about due :^) When it happens again I'll be more agressive...

Interesting what you say about the solder joint / connector ... that's one of the areas in which my friends shop wanted to look, but since the problem comes and goes and it wasn't present by the time the car got to him, I had decided not to go there quite yet. A break in the solder would most likely be visible if I pulled the cluster though, right?

And in your case, you did experience the non-starting thing at the same time, too ... ?

Thanks for the link(s), haven't had the chance to study them yet, but will soon ... I'll keep you posted.

Much appreciated,
Paul Cooper (pada)
San Diego

P.S. Bob, I just read through the thread you sent as a link. (Earlier, I had started to read through the postings, but by the time I got to page 3 of 134, I was crosseyed) WooHoo! This has GOT to be it! I can hardly wait till it happens again so I can play The Dash Bash! ... plus it could prove to be somewhat therapeutic... :grinyes:

Paul

BTW, anyone have an experience of their own to add that may help? Thanx!

Hello PADA,
Before going any further the one who discovered this little gauge smacking trick is P. Petruzzi, he shared it with every one and it sure has saved us all a lot cash! If you are out there, Thanks again Paul!
Pada, you are definetly NOT the only one who has had or IS having this problem, many many of us have battled it, and of course Chrysler knows nothing about the problem - BALONEY -, anyway, if you search this site for "intermittent start problem" (see below for direct link) you will find that in most cases one of two possiblities exist, either resetting the IOD fuse in the power distribution box or a cold / cracked solder joint on the instrument cluster printed circuit board. In July of 05 I pulled my circuit board, resoldered the main connector pins and have never seen the problem since. A quick way to check if indeed it is a cold solder joint is to: when you turn your key to the "on" position (not "start") and the gauges and such are dead, leave the key in the on position and smack the dash with your fists on both sides of the steering wheel above the advisory lights and watch for everything to come back to life, (no kidding) my hunch is they will. Some people who are having similar but not exactly the same symptoms are finding that pulling the IOD fuse in the power distribution center for a few minutes and then reinstalling it seems to correct the problem, hence the dash smack will get you in the right direction. If indeed you find that you need to pull the instrument cluster it is a relatively easy job if you are so inclined, I took some digital pics of mine during the disassembly and repair, due to the size of the pics and the number of people having this problem my wife let me put them on her web site - ingriddijkers.com from their go to the links page and scroll down to the "caravan pics" link near the bottom of the page, I hope the IOD fuse reset fixes your problem as it is faster but this fix isnt difficult either just takes a bit more time - if searching for the intermitt start dosnt work you can also search for posts from me as i have responed to this problem many times as many of us have... one of these two corrective actions will fix your problem,
sorry for the long winded response,
I'll see if I can resond back with a quick link to the pics, (found it - see below)
best of luck, pls keep us posted on how it turns out, and if there is anything else we can help with
Bob White
pentabob
Plymouth, Mich
98 caravan sport

pada here is the link to the pics, you can click on them to enlarge them:
http://ingriddijkers.com/CaravanPics.html

here the link on this site I mentioned above about this problem, there are 2 pages:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2015820

Bob, that's some excellant information! I have worked as a Quality Inspector for printed circuit boards. From what I see of your pictures there is not enough connector pin protrusion through the holes. It is also possible that when this board went through the "Wave Soldering" process that the solder did not flow up the pins and above the board slightly under the connector. This can be due to not enough flux, poor speed settings on the wave machine and just a poor quality company that assembles the boards. Here's a pic of poor quality wetting/flow and some info on wave soldering. Typical cheap workmanship!

Figure 2 at this link is the way the joints should look on both sides of the board.
http://smt.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=229920

Poor Quality Joints

http://images.pennnet.com/articles/smt/cap/cap_0506smt_coverf05.jpg

Wow... Thank you very much pentabob and Stevo2 for sharing your links about bad Printed Circuit Board (PCB) soldering... very interesting AND sobering. It begs the question, do either of you (or anyone else) know about any other PCB(s), in addition to the instrument cluster, that might suffer from this defect?

Great pictures and commentary guys... thanks again.

Hi you guys,
Yes I did have the exact starting problem you have Paul, start, run for a second or so and then just quit, then if I attempted to restart the van 3 times it would flat lock out the starter and starting system, I attributed that to the anti-theft system installed from the factory, never really looked in depth at the schematics though to prove it, so the key there is to not trip that circuit, it is actually doing exactly what it was designed to do.
When inspecting the solder joints I anticipated being able to actually see the defect also but that wasnt the case, by the pics you can see however that they are a far cry from a quality solder job, so what I did was to just reflow and add a bit of solder to them, when I heated one of the lower outside pins of the connector (can't remember which one) it just flat opened up, it was more of a bubble of solder rather than an actual mass of solder.
Stevo2, I'm certain that you are familiar with that defect, the best way I can describe it is as I mentioned above, it appeared to be a bubble, cold soldered or something? not sure, but as soon as heat was applied it looked similar to the pics you supplied, not quite that bad but.....
H-Horseman, dont know of any other areas off hand in the Caravans, although I'm certain they are there, perhaps others here know of other chronic areas.
It's a real shame that Daimler hasnt even addressed or acknowledged the problem, I dont mean that they should fix it as warranty or anything but for petes sake quit throwing expensive modules at the problem, after all there is plenty of documentation out here that they should at least be aware of the fault.
When you read through the all of the posts and start adding up the $$, its a ton!!
Enough ranting, sorry.....
I'll check back again soon,
best of luck everybody,
Bob White

... It's a real shame that Daimler hasnt even addressed or acknowledged the problem, I dont mean that they should fix it as warranty or anything but for petes sake quit throwing expensive modules at the problem, after all there is plenty of documentation out here that they should at least be aware of the fault. When you read through the all of the posts and start adding up the $$, its a ton!! Enough ranting, sorry..... I'll check back again soon, best of luck everybody, Bob WhiteTruer words were never spoken pentabob. Not only am I amazed at the knowledge you, Stevo2 and others bring to this forum, I am also amazed that you guys know as much or, more often than not, know WAY more than my dealer does (or maybe is willing to admit). Sheesh.

Truer words were never spoken pentabob. Not only am I amazed at the knowledge you, Stevo2 and others bring to this forum, I am also amazed that you guys know as much or, more often than not, know WAY more than my dealer does (or maybe is willing to admit). Sheesh.


I don't know of any other problems specifically like this for Chrysler but this problem as a whole is running rampant in the automotive market! Electrical and transmission problems are just too many to name. What they have done is switched from actual hands on testing the vehicle to computer aided failure analysis. The true functional testing is now done by the customer and when things fail, they may or may not get addressed by the manufacurer via recall/service bulletin. It costs less to do it this way even at the expense of upsetting the customers. The Need for Greed!

Hi all

I have exactly the same problem.
Car won't start, and no power to the gauges.
I'll try to remove the sucker and do as you suggested.

Keep your fingers crossed.....

Hey everyone, I really appreciate all this feedback on my issue. I'm sorry you've experienced the same thing, but sometimes it is gratifying to know you're not the only one! The symptom hasn't re-surfaced yet, but I'll keep you posted. Please do the same ... Thanx!


... and Disel, allow me to be the first to welcome you into our little club! :lol:

Paul (pada)
San Diego
97 Gr Caravan 3.3

Hi

Nope :shakehead , i did all. Removed everything, but things seems to be fine there :banghead:

When i turn the key to run, after a while, the "Alarm Set" flashes once (or sometimes until i turn off) and the waring for handbrake flashes.
And the beeping sound "beeps" every time the warning for handbrake flash.
And after a few secs, the odometer and "gearindicator" turns off.

Well, english aint my best language, but i hope you understand what i mean :lol:

So, any suggenstions ??

//disel

Hi Disel,
your problem is definetly different than the one pada is having, but is also very interesting just the same, in the morning I'll see if I can do some research into your symptoms and get back to you, cant promise anything but will give it a shot, any other info you can supply will help,
talk to you soon,
bob

OK

I can get the trouble codes from the computer.
1,2,4,7,8,24,30,55

//disel

Disel,
Just want to be sure....
this is a caravan?, what year?, what engine? does the engine crank, start, and then quit?, or is it that the engine never even cranks over?
any more specifics would help tremendously.

three quick questions:
1) what happens to the brake indicator lamp after the odometer and gear selector lamps go out?, does the lamp and chime continue or do they also quit?
2) have a quick look at your brake reservoir to make sure the fluid level is up, perhaps you actually have 2 different problems or...
3) did in-fact all of this start at the exact same time?

if your symptoms are different then pada's original post perhaps a new thread should be started, sometimes we tend to get off track from the original threads topic in cases like these.

I'm pretty certain that if you can give a bit more detail someone on this site will recognize the symptoms and be able to supply some good info.
talk to you soon,
Bob

OK

I can get the trouble codes from the computer.
1,2,4,7,8,24,30,55

//disel

Try re-running these codes again. I believe your first code should be a 12 and the last code is a 55 but 4,7,8 dont make any sense.
Do you have someone there that can scan your computer with a scanner to get more detailed codes?
To begin with, make sure your battery cables are squeeky clean and tight at both ends. Here in the US we can have our batteries and charging system checked for free at most auto parts stores, do you have something like that in Sweden? Do you notice this problem more if you wiggle your keys in the ignition switch? Just a thought, maybe the switch is intermittent?

See my posting on the '01 T&C Theft System dated Feb. 12th

Hi

Well, it's a Chrysler Grand Voyager, -2000, 3.8L AWD.

The brake lamp continues to flash, and the chime too , but not all the time.
Sometimes the chime just "chime" one time, the stop.

And the brakefluid level is ok.

When i turn the key.... nothing is happening.

About the trouble codes.....
The codes are 1, 2 , 4, 7, 8 , 24, 30, 55... NOT starting with 12


//disel

Some updates....

When i turn key, the ABS lamp is always "on".
The chime doesn't chime at all ('cos i closed the door).
But the "Alarm Set" flashes approx 10 times.
The Brake lamp always flashes

//disel

Disel,
Didnt want you to think we gave up, been looking at some prints and testing my van, totally unable to duplicate your symptoms, is it at all possible that you just have a virtually flat battery? able to power warning lights for only a short time and fully incapable of cranking the engine? will the headlights come on and stay on for a time? if they do come on try to crank the engine, what happens to the headlights? any further clues will help. still can't make any sense of the codes you have supplied, how exactly are you getting them?
the more info the better
talk to you soon,
bob

Hi

Nope, got a brand new battery.
Lights are OK.

One other thing that doesn't work is the "upper computer" , dunno the english word for that.
The thing that tells u where u heading, how much fuel u are using now ...
You know waht i mean ??

That "thing" is kinda dead. Doesn't show anything.
It usually says the direction (North, South...), and outside temp....
But nothing at all

My local dealer says, problem with ground OR power.....
Yeah, but where ??

//disel

Disel,

Your problem with the overhead panel is one of the same symptoms I sometimes have (I started this thread) which is addressed by the first reply to my inquiry (by pentabob).

Check out his link to the other thread where it is explained in more detail and also the link to his photo page for a possible answer.

Paul (pada)

Thanks so much for all help !!!

I'll try to resolder the connector at the instrument cluster.
I checked it out before and it looks fine, but you never know...

Where can i find a wiring diagram for my car ??
Its a Chrysler Grand Voyager, 3.8L AWD, -2000.
It was sold in Germany, but now, it's in Sweden.
Dunno if it differs anything from the US versions, except for the name ??

Is there a CHRYSLER Grand Voyager in US ?
Or is it Plymouth ? Or Dodge ?
Or are they all the same ?

Once again, THANKS !!!!

//disel

Hi Disel,

In the U.S., it's a Plymouth Grand Voyager (Plymouth no longer exists), Dodge Grand Caravan or Chrysler Town & Country. All are esentially the same with the exception of trim levels and badging...

Paul (pada)

Hi! I'm new to the site and I have read all the messages from all of you and sympathize with all of you. I have a 98 Plymouth Grand Voyager SE and a couple months ago I noticed the instrumentation panel stopped working while I was driving. I thought this was very strange as this or anything like this has never happened before, so I was near a Chrysler dealer so I drove in and asked for some advise and whether or not they knew what causes this and of course his answer was he had never heard of this problem that no one has ever complained of any such problem ever before. Bull Sh?t! When I went back out to leave everything was working fine. Then didn't do it again for several more days, then every day that passed it became more frequent, and then didn't work at all, then a week later it worked again, then not for a week. Well I kept asking around at different shops and one fellow said his brother in-law had the same problem with his van of the same year and model and he discovered the fuses were working their way out changing the resistance to the computer making the instrumentation panel go wacky. But after looking closer at my fuses, I think it was a corrosion problem and when he moved them it just started to work. So I removed both battery cables and cleaned them and the battery posts then pulled every fuse out of the panel 1 at a time and notice they were all slightly corroded, so I took a really fine file and removed all the corrosion from all the fuses, then re-installed the battery cables and all worked fine for a week not a glitch. Then it turned colder out the following week and it started acting up again. It didn’t work all week. Then thinking back I realized that every time it acted up was when the outside temperature was colder. Every warm day was when it worked flawlessly. I think your right in assuming a cold solder joint as this would be affected in cold weather since the metal would contract and loose connection. This will be my next step as soon as I get a warm clear day that I can work on it outside. I was also told to check all the ground connections to the frame that they had a tendency to corrode badly on this model. If anyone has noticed the failure during colder weather please let me know. So far in my case it's only the instrumentation panel failure and has never failed to start yet. Robert B

:rofl: I found the problem. It was the heat/rear viper board.
take a look at "Caravan Fix (somewhat) Instrument Problems "

Now i just have to put all things back.......

//disel