Need advise on Isolator/Intake repair..

I have an 01 Windstar, 3.8L with the classic 171/174 continous CEL code. Though it has 152,000 miles, it runs smooth. It has started the "baffle knock" in the last few months. I have attempted the MAF clean and can find no air leaks on any line or on the exterior of the intake itself. My main two problems are the knock and the continuous CEL slapping me in the eye every time I drive the van. I plan to complete the TSB repair but with some reservation. I want to ask a few questions before starting the isolator/intake repair.
1. What does the baffle knock consist of? Is it due to being loose or is it normally a broken baffle? What is hitting against each other to cause the knock?
2. I have read many cases to where the new isolator bolt broke during installation although they did not even use the full 89# of torque? Advise?
3. Many attempt to fasten(RTV) the baffle to the intake? Is this necessary and does it prevent the knock?
4. Can I just plug the hole in the valve cover to prevent future problems or must I replace it?
5. Should I bother with the lower intake area since it runs good and not losing any fluids?
6. Can someone provide the parts list for the 01?

Appreciate the help,
JoeJWill

I have a '96....which uses a different intake manifold........ So I do not know much about the '01.

I have saved this link.....which a member put up with some great information....and pictures that should be a great help to you....

http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html

Wiswind, that is a good link.

BTW, my Haynes was written for the '95 thru '01 models. The specified torque for the isolator bolts, for '99's, is written therein as 89 in-lbs, ... not 89 ft-lbs.

A quick note:

I just performed the isolator bolt/revised valve cover TSB this weekend on my 2000 Windstar LX 3.8, using the leckemby.net procedure reference above (many, many thanks to the author).

Overall perceptions:

- At first, I was intimidated by the procedure. But once starting work, it really wasn't terribly difficult. I was done in about 3.5 hours (admittedly, I did it late at night and was pushing along to make sure the van was driveable the next morning)

- I didn't bother with a torque wrench on any of the bolts. Yes, I've seen confusion between in-lbs and ft-lbs on listed figures. Note that the isolator bolts don't actually tighten directly onto the plastic manifold; they have a steel sleeve the transmits the torque to the lower manifold (which is cast metal). The plastic/rubber seal really does the bulk of the work. Note that 89 in-lbs only translates into a 7.5 pound force on the end of a 1 foot long wrench; none of the bolts in this entire project really get very much force.

- The baffle is made of the same black plastic material as the upper manifold. It has tabs that are designed to snap into the upper half of the upper manifold. Yours may be loose - but it really can't move very much. I'd be worried that RTV inside of the manifold might get loose and get sucked into a cylinder.

- I compared the two valve covers; it's likely that plugging the hole would accomplish that same goal as the new valve cover - but I had already paid for it, so I used it. I probably should have removed the metal plate (that's visible through on the PCV mounting hold) on both manifolds, to check if other changes were made underneath the plate, but didn't want to take the time.

- I didn't bother removing the cowl. By removing the IAC, I was able to get enough room to jockey the upper intake manifold off of the engine. I also had no problem reaching fasteners on the back side of the manifold, but concede I have thin hands and arms.

- My van (at 70K miles) didn't yet have the 171/174 CEL, but problems with occasional knock have gotten much worse recently, so I opted to perform the TSB now. So far (only one day's driving), the van runs much better; knock is gone.

I'd encourage you to tackle the TSB. I have decent DIY automotive background, but with the aid of the procedure, the repair was very straightforward.

I hope this helps.

Joejwil,
I agree with Phil-1 in that it is straighforward and an experienced DYI should have no real problem but you do need to judge your own abilities.

Things I would do differently:
-I would use a torque wrench. (Esp. since the plenum is plastic)
-I would remove the cowl.
-I would change the plugs if due while you have the cowling off.

Seems like you read most of the 171/174 threads. I was the one (iirc) that started asking about pluging the hole in the baffle. For the record I never tried it and I don't recall anyone ever giving feedback that they had tried either. I still think I would do it if I ever had take the valve cover off for some other reason.

Not too sure what you were refering to in regards to the "lower intake".

The parts list is in the TSB. I think there are links buried in the forum. If not I know I have them somewhere.

Not too sure what you were refering to in regards to the "lower intake".

The parts list is in the TSB. I think there are links buried in the forum. If not I know I have them somewhere.

I interpreted "lower intake" to be the lower intake manifold - the metal casting immediately below the plastic manifold. The lower intake manifold includes the EGR ports, and also houses the intake runner butterflies.

The leckemby.net procedure includes a more complete parts list than the TSB (which specifically calls to *not* replace the gasket between the uppper manifold halves; I'd replace it).

Hmmm - one of the reasons I didn't use a torque wrench is that I didn't have one that goes that low. I should probably get a nice small "lower range" torque wrench, just for such projects.

I had recently changed the spark plugs on my Windstar - the rear 3 requiring the painful lay-on-your-back-and-reach-up-there method - so I skipped that portion. I suspect it would have been easier to remove at least the top half of the upper manifold, simply for spark plug access.

I had the lovely opportunity to due this TSB twice since Ford gave me the same easy to deteriorate isolator bolts. The second time around, the new isolator bolts seemed to have a different rubber sleeve (green). You will need these because I also replaced the valve cover (and I did take them both apart) to realize that the only difference was the hole. The oil blow-by problem will not go away with or without the new valve cover, trust me on this one. I currently have attempted the in-line filter home made modification and I have yet to come to a conclusion if it helps or not. I also had the baffle knock and after several pros and cons from posters here, I decided to RTV with a good brand and have had no problems. As a matter of fact, its down right hard to get the stuff off after a removal for inspection purposes. Good luck and all the info needed for the mod I have found here.

I currently have attempted the in-line filter home made modification and I have yet to come to a conclusion if it helps or not.

I'd appreciate it if you could post pictures of the PCV filter you made. Even with the revised valve cover, I suspect some oil still makes it into the manifold.

Yup, I made sure my new isolator bolts had the green bushing...

Here's the filter setup in a 3.8L Mustang, a little different layout but same idea:

http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/pcv_filter.htm

Thanks for the link.

Note for others: The previous link also includes a detailed view of changes made to a valve cover. While it isn't technicall a Windstar valve cover, the changes appear to be identical to what I saw on my Windstar. This means budget-sensitive Windstar owners should be able to modify their original valve cover to match the revised cover. You'd probably only need to some tin snips (there is one corner of the interior baffle that has a new notch), a pair of pliers (one corner is bent slightly differently) and some reliable way to plug the hole (I'd suggest an appropriate size bolt, with a nylock-style locking nut).

The filter looks like it does the trick. My '95 Ford Contour is also noted for oil from the PCV line causing intake crud problems; I'll look into these solutions.

I also had to do the upper intake manifold the second time to get the improved isolator bolts ... similar to Mackab's experience. I also did the RTV "fix" the first and second times ... with good results. I did the second repair before conditions were bad enough to cause codes.

I don't remember exactly, but I'm sure the first repair had 50 kmiles or more before the second one.

And even though the upper intake manifold was oilier the second time around, there was NO PLUGGING of the EGR jets. FURTHER, THERE WAS NO SLUDGING DOWN INSIDE THE LOWER MANIFOLD CYLINDER INLET PORTS. The IMRC butterflys were as clean as I left them in the first repair. I attribute this all to the fact that the upper plastic assembly was completely RTV-sealed to the plastic "spacer". That is, each of the six air horns was sealed at its lower end .... where each is inserted down into the spacer. (Those who have been "in there" will know where this is). This action forced the oil to pool on top of the spacer and only go lower into the intake "inside an air stream" .... not seep down around the outside of the horns ... where it clings to walls and does not get into the combustion chamber borne on air.

So, in my situation, the oil collects on top of the upper intake spacer until the pool gets so high that some of it may be picked up by the intake air and carried over inside one or more of the horns. I contend this does no damage and will not cause intake gumming.

Now what I did, with the RTV, was a bit extreme. You have to believe that the RTV bead that you put in place will stay in place and not go below and take up residence under a valve head ... or worse. So I'm not suggesting you do as much sealing as I did .... a little RTV is all that's necessary to get rid of inner baffle noise and vibration.

However, I would caution everyone on any efforts to eliminate the oil getting into the upper intake chamber "in the first place". The PCV path has been well engineered, I think, and does a good job of keeping the lower short block free of combustion sludge ... at the small cost of returning some crankcase oil up to the top of the intake.

DON'T tamper with the PCV path unless you are willing to pay the price of a misadventure!!

Can you share some more about how you sealed the bottom of the baffle air horns to the lower half of the upper intake manifold?

As I recall, there's a slight 'lip' near the top of each air horn on the lower half of the upper intake manifold. I'm guessing you ran a small bead of RTV around each, and then seated the baffle into the RTV. Did this make it more difficult to place the upper intake manifold (i.e., normally the baffle is 'clipped' into place, then installed with the upper half of the plastic manifold) or did you place them both together (meaning you can't actually see how well the baffle seated into the RTV)?

This is an interesting approach.

Phil-l
I think you imagine it pretty accurately.

I first secured the inner baffle to the upper piece using a few scattered daubs of RTV. (My retaining clips had already broken off before the first repair ... they were waiting for me atop the spacer). The two parts were pressed together and the RTV allowed to cure a bit.

On installing the upper (two-part-assembly) to the plastic spacer: I first did a sealing experiment on a single horn ... allowed some cure time ... and then pulled the upper away from the spacer to evaluate the seal. (You're right. You can't see what the results are without disassembly). The final method was to run a RTV bead in each female "nest" and also a mating bead around each male horn tip. You have to work pretty fast to get all this done before curing begins ... especially on a warm day. The bead diameter was approx 1/8" - 3/16". Using my finger, I trimmed the beads to what I felt was a shape that would surely seal the joints.

Thanks for the info.

I must admit, I'd be scared that some of that RTV would blob up enough to become a piece that ultimately falls off (I once had something similar happen in an auto cooling system; the piece of silicone ended up getting stuck in the thermostat, holding it open). But it is surely an effective method of keeping any PCV oil out of the intakes. And a small - very small - piece of silicone would probably ultimately make it out the exhaust without damaging anything.

If you ever pull it off again, let us know if it looks like the silicone 'rings' look to have survived without losing any material.

Yes, will do.

And remember, this is the second time I've done this procedure ... I could not see any loss of RTV material. The "RTV rings" were all in place, most clung to the female spacer upon the disassembly, ... a couple stayed on the horns.

I checked today for the hole in the 5 o'clock position inside the valve cover and could not see one. I have the black valve cover; most have described the replacement as a silver cover. I have not taken off the intake cover to see if a previous repair has been done. I guess that will be required to be for sure.
1. Can someone tell me exactly where the knock comes from? What is hitting?
2. I can find no external air leak causing the 171/174. Is the leak internal? And will the isolator bolt correct the CEL code? Other than the knock and the light, the van runs smooth.
thanks, JoeJWill
JoeJ

Your Windstar is a 2001 so it came from the factory with the redesigned valve cover in black. The replacement silver valve cover was for the 99-2000 year Windstars.

If you have the infamous "baffle knock", it is inside the upper intake manifold ... that plastic cover thing that is to top of the engine. It's acually a two-piece affair ... and its the inside piece that breaks free and starts vibrating. The intake "upper" is attached to the intake "spacer" (the plastic piece that the throttle body is attached to) with 14, or so, screws around the perimeter.

The leaks causing 0171 and 0174 are often caused by the "isolator bolts" (a bolt with built-on seals) that attach the "spacer" to the metal "lower". You will not see the bolts until you remove the "upper".

I would go ahead and replace the upper intake FMC 2F2Z9424AA 151.75 dealer retail price is 159.00 I found one place for 129.00 but would had to wait on shipping. It looks a little different such as the top seems to be a little more sloped.. the baffle is welded in.. well plastic welded.. My intake looked a little rough on the inside plus the baffle had a crack and a chip. The chip was my fault.. I started it up this morning on a cols start and no knock....Take the cowl off it will make the job eaiser. One plug holds the wiper in so be carefull.

Just to add to 12Ounce's response.

The TSB states that it is to be performed if the vehicle has 171/174 codes and there are no other drivability concerns. (I think yours qualifies).

Different years require different degrees of the TSB. As was pointed out your may have the updated valve cover.

All of the years covered require the Isolator bolts. It is the deteriorization of the rubber that causes the leaks. There are other ways to get those 2 codes but sooner or later the bolts will deteriorate. The Isolator bolts have been re-designed with a different type of rubber. The TSB states to relace the port seals as well. I personally do not feel this is necessary an a good cleaning of the top of the lower intake should be sufficient but to be on the safe side you should replace them. If your vaccum regular hose is loose replace it as well. (you can check this without disassembling anything.). The TSB calls for a new valve cover. It sounds like you may have the updated version. I did not but I did not (asnd still don't) think it is necesaary.

I have a lot of experience as a DYI and it took me about 6 hours or so. I took my time. It is a straighforward job and I would think that anyone who has done drum brakes or something similar should have no problems. Print out the link that shows the step by steps (can't remember who posted it). They are excellent instructions. If you are going to do it yourself then take your time, plug the intake holes when you get the top off to ensure nothing falls in. When you get the top off then you will see the rattling piece that 12ounce has mentioned.

Good luck.

Joe on the 2001 you are ok on the valve cover all you will need is the isolator bolts. FMC 3F2Z9S479AA qty 8 72.08. Port seals/gaskets is FMC XF2Z9H486AA qty 6 18.96 I paid 97.41 tax included for all if your dealer is higher than this I got a web site you can go to.. Also I do trust most opions on here as far as the intake issue. I would replace it. you do have a great deal of miles on it. the part number is FMC 2F2Z9424AA 151.75 AT MY LOCAL DEALER .THE retail is 159.00.
You also want to check the vacuum lines like stated on the tsb for leaks mine were ok.. This site was were i was going to order from but my dealer was resonable enough. I think they have the same intake for 129.00 but check with shipping charges. hope this helps..

http://www.newfordparts.com/

Thanks so much!!! Hopefully, I will start this week if the dealer has the parts.
Should any of the gaskets/seals be reused?
Joe

Thanks so much!!! Hopefully, I will start this week if the dealer has the parts.
Should any of the gaskets/seals be reused?
Joe
Not for the intake, but the throtle body will be fine other than that there no other seals you will run into.. just port seals need replacing . just make sure you inspect the vacuum line one for the throttle body back side 1 for the brake booster and a unit line not quite sure what that was, it had 2 hoses pluged in together to the lower intake plenum and a plug you need to unplug.all this is on the backside of the intake.

What does one do if you've snapped off two isolator bolts by over-tightening? Have I made a bad situation many times worse?

Wiswind, that is a good link.

BTW, my Haynes was written for the '95 thru '01 models.

I would like to have a Haynes like yours, mine was likely published later and covers even the Freestar. That is not a plus, it just adds to confusion when it covers more models. Ideally Haynes should have published separate manuals: one for the 95-98's which are significantly different from the 99-03's, and one for the 99-03's and the Freestar which are very similar.