I can understand how a dirty filter could affect full throttle acceleration. But, when you're cruising down the road at 65mph, what difference does it make? The O2 sensors should correct for an air filter that's a little dirty, shouldn't it? Dirty or clean, lo-tech or hi-dollar, at 65mph, won't the engine management system make the fuel to air ratio the same?

The O2 sensor tells how much..but it doesn't change the fact that more air means more effeciency. Besides, if a dirty filter cuts it down, then a high flow will also improve a stock setup. You have to remember that the factory only sets these vehicles up to about 80% effeciency so that Grandma doesn't kill herself on the freeway!!!

Go find your kid, wife, or friend and put a WWE Wrestling Choke hold on them and ask them if they can work up to the normal standard you are used to seeing???? Sure they have the food and previous oxygen in their system but they definitly will not be functioning properly when you deprive them of air slowely.....

I can understand how a dirty filter could affect full throttle acceleration. But, when you're cruising down the road at 65mph, what difference does it make? The O2 sensors should correct for an air filter that's a little dirty, shouldn't it? Dirty or clean, lo-tech or hi-dollar, at 65mph, won't the engine management system make the fuel to air ratio the same?

Go to an Advance Auto Parts. I think all Advance stores now have a demonstration display of a K&N filter vs. a regular filter. That will probably make a believer out of you once you see it. A dirt K&N flows better than a clean regular filter.

I don't doubt that a hi-flow filter passes more air. Remember, I'm not talking about running at full throttle.

Y'all are saying that if I pop in a fancy air filter, I'll be able to run down the road at 65 mph with more air flow, and the engine management system will allow me to run lean for more than a few minutes?

I can see a problem with a dirty filter in an old carberated engine with no computer.....but not in our engines....until the filter really gets clogged up.

Well then let me put it his way. You'll know when you're traveling down the highway using less throttle with your foot. More air...less gas. Trust me, I'm not a mechanic!!!

Go find your kid, wife, or friend and put a WWE Wrestling Choke hold on them and ask them if they can work up to the normal standard you are used to seeing???? Sure they have the food and previous oxygen in their system but they definitly will not be functioning properly when you deprive them of air slowely.....

Is everything ok Jethro???? :lol: J/K, I like your analogy!

I can see a problem with a dirty filter in an old carberated engine with no computer.....but not in our engines....until the filter really gets clogged up.

Nah, once my dad's cars got some age on them, he usually just did away with the air cleaner altogether. Nothing flows more air than nothing. They always ran fine

Is everything ok Jethro???? :lol: J/K, I like your analogy!


You like??? Every thing is cool, I just like to find something that a person can relate to.... :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:

Soon than later suffication is eminant!!!

Go find your kid, wife, or friend and put a WWE Wrestling Choke hold on them

To me, it will always be WWF

....my guess is that it won't. Does it detect a lean condition using the oxygen sensors? If it corrects a lean condition, how does it do it?

....my guess is that it won't. Does it detect a lean condition using the oxygen sensors? If it corrects a lean condition, how does it do it?
The PCM uses the O2 sensors to read the O2 content of the exhaust stream. Low O2 readings indicate a large amount of O2 in the exhaust stream (indicating a lean condition).
High O2 readings indicate a rich exhaust.
The PCM tries to compensate for the O2 readings by adjusting the Pulse Width of the Injectors (On time) to either add or remove fuel. This is called Fuel trim.
Positive fuel trim is the PCM adding fuel to compensate for a lean condition while Negative fuel trim is the PCM removing fuel to compensate for a rich condition.
A PCM could fail and not compensate for either a rich or lean condition.

As I look through more old threads about high capacity air filters, I find that some folks FEEL like they're getting better gas mileage with a fancy air intake, but those that actually check it find that they don't see an mpg increase....just some full throttle improvement.

I've decided to stop changing my oil and filter completely. After all, I've never done a blood transfusion on my kids, and I haven't had their livers transplanted.

As I look through more old threads about high capacity air filters, I find that some folks FEEL like they're getting better gas mileage with a fancy air intake, but those that actually check it find that they don't see an mpg increase....just some full throttle improvement.

I've decided to stop changing my oil and filter completely. After all, I've never done a blood transfusion on my kids, and I haven't had their livers transplanted.

No, but I am sure they blow their noses and take a dump on a regular basis

So, when I replace the air filter, I may only see a temporary change in mid-throttle performance and mpg...if any. The engine will get more air flow at the same throttle position, sense the lean condition, and the ECM will correct for it. Is that right?

I merged both of joema's topics togather here.
Even though the PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio at all times, the high efficency filter may increase MPG based on VOLUME.
If you can create the same horse power using less air, you will reduce the need for fuel and still maintain the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio and this is the theory of high efficency air filters.

Now we're talking! So if the air to fuel ratio is right, and the O2 sensors aren't reading exactly where they want to be, which one wins? My guess is that the O2 sensors would ignore the ratio, as long as the ratio is within a certain range. Could be the other way....that the ratio is held constant as long as the O2 is within tolerances.

Are you saying that a high flow filter acts kinda like a super charger...in a way? More molecules of air and fuel in the same combustion chamber....Could be.

My best guess is this....and I'm not a mechanic, but I've worked with automatic controls. As the air flows into the engine, it has to flow through the filter, the throttle plate, all of the intake manifolds, and through the intake valves. All of these create a pressure drop. More pressure drop yields less air flow. The immediate effect of a new air filter would be less pressure drop, and therefore more air flow, at, let's say, a throttle position of 65% open. Less pressure drop in the total system means more air flow. IF the O2 sensors are in charge, they would see a lean condition, and increase the fuel. So, you would go faster. To stay at 60mph, you lift your foot off the gas a little. The throttle closes to, say, 61% open, the fuel gets cut back proportionally by the ECM, and you're back at 60 mph. If this was true, the only effect of a new filter would be that your throttle plate has to run a little more closed at a given speed.....the pressure loss in the filter will be moved to the throttle plate

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

Did you put in one of those FIPK kits? Or just replaced the filter with K&N?

I was looking at the plumbing from my factory air filter box to the engine. The neck that feeds the filtered air is very flat and looks restrictive. At one point it even feels closed! I can see how a smooth neck from the air filter that is round throughout would allow better air to the engine.

I am thinking seriously about an FIPK, then a Nelson Tune. Thats it, no headers or exhaust etc.

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

A mistake some people do when they hook up the FIPK is they don't disconnect the battery for at least 15 minutes. Doing this will let the computer completely readjust to the new intake. Also the benefit of FIPK will be felt better if you have a cat-back duall exhaust (though not required). I can say it helped the erformance of my truck.

:sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse

one mistake I made when installing mine is that I forgot to plug my MAF back up when i got thru

A mistake some people do when they hook up the FIPK is they don't disconnect the battery for at least 15 minutes. Doing this will let the computer completely readjust to the new intake. Also the benefit of FIPK will be felt better if you have a cat-back duall exhaust (though not required). I can say it helped the erformance of my truck.

:sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse


Really? I installed my FIPK last week and I didn't do this. I have noticed a huge difference in performance but I'm still on my first tank of gas so I can't comment on mileage yet. Should I go ahead and diconnect now? What exactly does this do for the PCM?

one mistake I made when installing mine is that I forgot to plug my MAF back up when i got thru

I did this too when I installed mine. Mine idled somewhere around 300 rpm until I plugged it back in. It sounded mean as hell though idling that low..like I had a cam or something.

Yup, K&N FIPK. Part # was 63-3050 and installed as per instructions.
Cost was $329.00. If they had a money back guarantee, I'd send it back.
I guess when they have claims of up to 11HP increase and a mileage increase of "up to", that also includes the number 0.

I don't think the 63-3050 was an FIPK kit. I think it was just a high flow filter setup. I was looking at the same one but they had some different ones on Summit and K&N that were actually labeled FIPK kits. Maybe I'm just a dummy and can't read but that's what I got from it.

EDIT** Yeah I just looked on K&N's website. The Aircharger (63-3050)and 77 Series kits are not the 57 Series FIPK kits. That's a whole 'nuther setup I guess. Funny thing is that K&N doesn't have a FIPK kit listed for a 2005 5.3L Silverado. WTH is up with that?

Yup, K&N FIPK. Part # was 63-3050 and installed as per instructions.
Cost was $329.00. If they had a money back guarantee, I'd send it back.
I guess when they have claims of up to 11HP increase and a mileage increase of "up to", that also includes the number 0.

YOW! My FIPK (57-3021-1) for my '02 5.3 was $196 delivered.

YOW! My FIPK (57-3021-1) for my '02 5.3 was $196 delivered.

yea, I got mine off e-bay for about that.

A mistake some people do when they hook up the FIPK is they don't disconnect the battery for at least 15 minutes. Doing this will let the computer completely readjust to the new intake.

There is no need to do this, the PCM will make adjustments for most operating conditions.

If you put in a K&N air filter in place of the stock one you won't see much of a difference. If you install a K&N FIPK and get rid of the stock induction system then you will see, hear and feel an improvement. If you get rid of the huge muffer for a small turbo muffler then your engine can really breath and sound better. Both will improve gas mileage.

Well whats everyone else getting for mpg with an FIPK installed?

Well whats everyone else getting for mpg with an FIPK installed?

Yes!!!! We're back to square one. The questions I had were:

What was the before AND after gas mileage with a fancy air intake (and NO other changes)?

AND

Will the engine management system allow our engines to run lean? (Which would be the initial effect of more air flow.)

I just checked mine last night...and I got 15.96, but thast with the FIPK, Tune, 285's, and a heavy foot.

I changed a few things right around the same time as the FIPK, so that's a no go. There was no lean condition, tho

How do you correct a lean conditon? I know Allen can, but I don't want to have to wait for another PCM and all that..my valves still rattle like mad.

How do you correct a lean conditon? I know Allen can, but I don't want to have to wait for another PCM and all that..my valves still rattle like mad.

I'm having the same problem... Allen is sending another PCM with some more timing removed. He blames our gas in GA, tho it could be carbon build up

Let me know if it clears it up. I'm tired of sounding like a diesel

How do you correct a lean conditon? I know Allen can, but I don't want to have to wait for another PCM and all that..my valves still rattle like mad.


I'm thinking the engine management system, as is, from the factory, controls the lean/rich at one point, by using the O2 sensors. That's why I'm guessing that, even though a fancy air intake COULD pass more air, the engine Control won't allow it....when just cruising down the road at something less than full throttle.

Sometimes you just have to experiment for yourself. Some over the counter things will work, sometimes you need to take a quess and make changes yourself. If all vehicles came from the factory running perfect, we would never get to modify them.

Yeah, but its kind of hard to get mine to run perfectly without having access to HPtuners or LS1Edit

I only added the FIPK and a cat-back dual exhaust from Flowmaster and went from just over 16 mpg to 18.5 mpg at 80mph on the highway (1999 Silverado, 5.3, 4x4, x-cab). Besides the fact the the truck sounds better and has better throttle response, after a few trips to my dad's house (close to 400 miles away), the parts will pay for themselves. After all, I had to replace the exhaust anyway, so I really only factor in the FIPK.

On a lighter note, because the truck sounded better, I'm pretty sure I got considerably worse city mileage the fist summer I had the exhaust on the truck. Just couldn't keep my foot out of it. :)

Hope that helps anyone.

Mike

I came accross this article although not chevy specific still applies and pretty well sums it up

http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng18.shtml

Sorry, but I don't buy this. I do know I had a perfromance improvement after my FPIK. I don't know how he did this "testing" but there's got to be something it that isn't jiving right. What I will do is shoot this to K&N and askwhat they think. Hopefully I'll get a response soon.

I've been thinking of putting one of those on my truck but I'm really skepitical and doing a bit of research especially considering the cost of those things. Too bad they don't have an unconditional money back guarantee, then it would be a no brainer. One thing that doesn't make sense is that the filter sits out in the open in the hot engine compartment. How do you get cold air to the engine when it is sucking hot air, and that deflector they use does nothing to isolate the filter from the hot air. All you have to do is just look at it and you can see that. At least the stock airbox intakes cooler fresh air from outside the vehicle.

Now this cold air intake unit from volant looks like it makes more sense...note the cold air box with the scoop.

http://www.volantperformance.com/cai.asp

Some really like the Volant. I think the only gain with this is it's more protectctive in four wheeling muddy condiditons. A box is a box is a box and IMHO I believe it to be more restrictive, but I've never seen one up close so I can't say with any assurity. As for the "hot" air from the engine, the kit comes with a shield to guard from the hot engine heat, not to mention that air will be pushing into the filter area from the front and side as the vehicle is moving.
Also, if that dude is going to do a test, he might try doing the same test with no filter and also, did he test with an FIPK system... NO, he only makes a subjective personal opinion on the cone system and did so without any data, foundation and almost from a childish immature way. This tells me his test is skewed and most likely done in a fashion to prove what he wanted to prove. I do believe the Volant to be better than stock, and most probably competitive with the FIPK, but still somewhat restrictive being pulled through a box. Also you can score an FIPK for about $200, delivered if you're patient and look hard and often enough.
One other thing to think about, he did it with an Audi... apples and oranges!!! Do it with a Silverado, or any full size truck for all that matters and then we'll talk.

:disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin

I'm thinking the engine management system, as is, from the factory, controls the lean/rich at one point, by using the O2 sensors. That's why I'm guessing that, even though a fancy air intake COULD pass more air, the engine Control won't allow it....when just cruising down the road at something less than full throttle.

I have already explained to you how the engine management system operates on this vehicle.
As soon as the PCM sees a lean exhaust it compensates for it, so if a high flow air filter does allow more air, the fuel mixture will still be 14.7 to 1.

Also if you really want to measure something his meathod of study is unrepeatable. A G-Tech is not a calibrated accurate to the 1000ths machine like you would need for a repeatable test.

Another thought is Volant makes the Ram Air scoop. When gaining speed at a track or above 50 the ram air effect does help provide the engine more air. That does help you get more air into your engine than just letting the engine pull air in. So what are you looking for, more air in a fast condtion or just the ability to have more air?

Just my :2cents:

Read this post and please be objective, ultimately you are the only person responsible for your truck, its performance and longevity, don´t let anybody convince you of something you don´t want. Having said that, I found this link from a guy that has what I believe a good background in engineering and experience with motor engines of all types, he did this test and pictures say a thousand words. Bottom line, it´s your truck and if you want to run it without a filter well be my guest (just don´t offer it to me as a used vehicle when you don´t want it anymore ) :grinno: but the fact is, a stock air filter will protect your engine more than a high performance one. A good engineer will always take into account economics, believe it or not, he´ll have the mentality of doing things in an optimal way, not in an extreme way, get the most bang for the buck without being wasteful, a stock filter is a balance between performance and filtration capability and personally I am going to autozone right now and buy a stock paper replacement filter and take off the K&N tampax I put on my poor little dirt road driven truck, I know I took some years off of that engine, I just hope she can someday forgive me for it. :banghead:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" even if you offer more aire, the engine will only use what it needs...

ur worrying to much, just put one on and try it, u'll see

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" even if you offer more aire, the engine will only use what it needs...


I bet you could get a few more pounds in that bucket by Forced Induction which I admit few of us have..... :evillol: :evillol: :evillol: :evillol: :evillol:

Well sure you could! but I have nothing against forced induction, you do get more power, but would you rather do it with clean air or with a burst from a sandblaster?

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" ...

Now there is an interpretation I wasn't expecting :uhoh:

Open for local interpretation only....... :icon16: :rofl: :lol2: :rofl: :naughty:

Read this post and please be objective, ultimately you are the only person responsible for your truck, its performance and longevity, don´t let anybody convince you of something you don´t want. Having said that, I found this link from a guy that has what I believe a good background in engineering and experience with motor engines of all types, he did this test and pictures say a thousand words. Bottom line, it´s your truck and if you want to run it without a filter well be my guest (just don´t offer it to me as a used vehicle when you don´t want it anymore ) :grinno: but the fact is, a stock air filter will protect your engine more than a high performance one. A good engineer will always take into account economics, believe it or not, he´ll have the mentality of doing things in an optimal way, not in an extreme way, get the most bang for the buck without being wasteful, a stock filter is a balance between performance and filtration capability and personally I am going to autozone right now and buy a stock paper replacement filter and take off the K&N tampax I put on my poor little dirt road driven truck, I know I took some years off of that engine, I just hope she can someday forgive me for it. :banghead:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" even if you offer more aire, the engine will only use what it needs...


Well, then send me your K&N

Sure, 40 bucks will get you a slightly used K&N filter plus the cleaning kit, still brand new...

Can ayone verify if this is true?

Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or
Service
Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an
Aftermarket
Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter #04-07-30-013 - (03/05/2004)

Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service
Engine
Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket
Reusable,
Excessively Oiled Air Filter 2004 and Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2004 HUMMER H2

First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket oiled air
filter
DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a
reusable aftermarket oiled air filter.

The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may
result in:
a.. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On
b.. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or
band(s)
c.. Engine drivability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop,
limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred
onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the
sensor. As
a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and
any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check
for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter.
The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM
air
box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

Transmission or engine drivability concerns that are the result of
the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter
are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

The British are coming...the British are coming!!!!

Can ayone verify if this is true?

Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or
Service
Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an
Aftermarket
Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter #04-07-30-013 - (03/05/2004)

Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service
Engine
Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket
Reusable,
Excessively Oiled Air Filter 2004 and Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2004 HUMMER H2

First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket oiled air
filter
DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a
reusable aftermarket oiled air filter.

The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may
result in:
a.. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On
b.. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or
band(s)
c.. Engine drivability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop,
limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred
onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the
sensor. As
a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and
any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check
for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter.
The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM
air
box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

Transmission or engine drivability concerns that are the result of
the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter
are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

Totally TRUE!

well, how does an air filter (excessively oiled or otherwise) cause the trany to slip? I mean, to me, it seems like I could take a dump in my air box and have no effect on the tranny.

I have already explained to you how the engine management system operates on this vehicle.
As soon as the PCM sees a lean exhaust it compensates for it, so if a high flow air filter does allow more air, the fuel mixture will still be 14.7 to 1.


I'm not so sure I agreed with your original explanation. Some of the engineers I've spoken with say that the O2 sensors are in charge. If the O2 is not at its target, the fuel/air mixture will be adjusted (within limits) to make the O2 right. This is how it would compensate for different elevations, for example. Also, you said the ratio was based on VOLUME. The 'M' in MAFS stands for mass. Sorry.....you could still be right.

Do we agree that the high $$ intake, with no other mods, shouldn't and won't increase mpg, but may improve full throttle performance?

Here's my 2-cents worth:

I have the k & n fipk. No improvement in mpg.

Nice little increase in low and mid range power.

Nice little sound.

Howerver, keeps triggering the maf code and throwing the ses ligth on.

Dealer did tell me (about 6 months ago) that gm will probably send out a tsb.

I am going to a least clean my maf. Will post any results.

Still unclear on how this affects the auto trans.

I just pulled and checked my MAS. I've used K&N since about 1-2 months after I bought my '02 (31K+ miles) and found it clean as a whistle. It's not the oil treated filter that'll cause you problems. It's the oil treated filter which was over treated that'll cause problems. I won't deny it has happened to people, but for those masses that do it right, it shouldn't be a problem. I won't make any miledge statements as the two variables we can't monitor at a consistant rate are driving habits and the traffic we deal with. If thre is a gain with the FIPK, its probably minimal at best. What I can saw is I feel I have a better running, more effecient engine. I was really able to tell it last summer hauling a travel trailer to up to Lake Tahoe and what I experienced was significant, both in power and mildedge (+1-2) compared to what I've experienced before (that is constant for me in how I drive it). For me FIPK works..That's all that matters!!!

I'm not so sure I agreed with your original explanation. Some of the engineers I've spoken with say that the O2 sensors are in charge. If the O2 is not at its target, the fuel/air mixture will be adjusted (within limits) to make the O2 right. This is how it would compensate for different elevations, for example. Also, you said the ratio was based on VOLUME. The 'M' in MAFS stands for mass. Sorry.....you could still be right.

How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.

Do we agree that the high $$ intake, with no other mods, shouldn't and won't increase mpg, but may improve full throttle performance?

I don't

The PCM uses the O2 sensors to read the O2 content of the exhaust stream. Low O2 readings indicate a large amount of O2 in the exhaust stream (indicating a lean condition).
High O2 readings indicate a rich exhaust.
The PCM tries to compensate for the O2 readings by adjusting the Pulse Width of the Injectors (On time) to either add or remove fuel. This is called Fuel trim.
Positive fuel trim is the PCM adding fuel to compensate for a lean condition while Negative fuel trim is the PCM removing fuel to compensate for a rich condition.
A PCM could fail and not compensate for either a rich or lean condition.
This was my quote

Some of the engineers I've spoken with say that the O2 sensors are in charge. If the O2 is not at its target, the fuel/air mixture will be adjusted (within limits) to make the O2 right. This is how it would compensate for different elevations, for example.
Isn't that what I stated above? :banghead:


The theory behind the high air flow filters is more air can enter under less throttle. This means less fuel is needed so MPG could be increased.
This is their theory not mine. But this could be the reason why people claim HP increase.



How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.
I did learn something from a Bear...shit doesn't stick to rabbit fur, so that is why they wipe there asses with rabbits :rofl:

well, how does an air filter (excessively oiled or otherwise) cause the trany to slip? I mean, to me, it seems like I could take a dump in my air box and have no effect on the tranny.

The MAF is one of the inputs used for trans shift strategy, If the readings are schewed by oil contaminated sensing wires, the trans could be operating under too low of a pressure and this would cause a slip condition.
If oil contamination from the OIL BATH air filter is the cause of the concern, then warranty coverage does not apply because the vehicle has been modified from factory configuration and the modification caused the concern..not a factory defect.

How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.

There are lots of wrong answers on this board...it isn't a problem. You just have to weed things out, and decide for yourself which one makes sense. You've never had an answer to a question of yours that seemed wrong?

I don't

...you don't agree that there is no mpg increase? What did you see when the only change you made was the air intake?

...you don't agree that there is no mpg increase? What did you see when the only change you made was the air intake?


Can't comment, which is why I don't agree. I changed a whole bunch of things within a few days of the air cleaner

The MAF is one of the inputs used for trans shift strategy, If the readings are schewed by oil contaminated sensing wires, the trans could be operating under too low of a pressure and this would cause a slip condition.
If oil contamination from the OIL BATH air filter is the cause of the concern, then warranty coverage does not apply because the vehicle has been modified from factory configuration and the modification caused the concern..not a factory defect.

I gotcha... makes sense. But if, for instance, you have your tranny line pressure already increase thru the PCM, it seems that this wouldbe someting you don't really have to worry about. Is that correct?

Hey GMMerlin....I think you made a typo on the comments about high O2 telling the computer that there is a rich condition.....

(I asked this on an earlier post) In one post, you said that the O2 sensors are in charge. That's what I think happens. In the next post, you said that the computer tries to control the air/fuel ratio at 14.7. Since there will be times when the inlet mixture (that you said is based on VOLUME) will give you a rich condition (like, at high altitude), won't the computer change the ratio?

Originally Posted by BlenderWizard
How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.

There are lots of wrong answers on this board...it isn't a problem. You just have to weed things out, and decide for yourself which one makes sense. You've never had an answer to a question of yours that seemed wrong?

I don't

When, exactly, did I ever say that? But, to respond to that, as I assuming it is a typo: When you come in here or go to the store or go anywhere and ask someone a question, it puts you in the position that you don't know the answer (why else would you ask a question, unless you don't know the answer?). Then, for someone to answer your question (especially someone in GMMerlin's position), and you argue with them about their answer is arrogant beyond words.

Here's a question. Will the DIC "fuel economy" feature indicate a change in MPG?

I just pulled and checked my MAS. I've used K&N since about 1-2 months after I bought my '02 (31K+ miles) and found it clean as a whistle. It's not the oil treated filter that'll cause you problems. It's the oil treated filter which was over treated that'll cause problems. I won't deny it has happened to people, but for those masses that do it right, it shouldn't be a problem. I won't make any miledge statements as the two variables we can't monitor at a consistant rate are driving habits and the traffic we deal with. If thre is a gain with the FIPK, its probably minimal at best. What I can saw is I feel I have a better running, more effecient engine. I was really able to tell it last summer hauling a travel trailer to up to Lake Tahoe and what I experienced was significant, both in power and mildedge (+1-2) compared to what I've experienced before (that is constant for me in how I drive it). For me FIPK works..That's all that matters!!!


I havn't re-oiled my filter yet. I cleaned it a few weeks ago and did not re-oil it just to see what happens with the maf code I have been getting.

If you do, easy does it. Use just enough to turn it from white. You might want to oil it though just the same. EZ Duz It!!

I soak mine on 20W/50 then throw it in the air box all drippin with oil to make sure it gets all the bad dust out of my engine. I may be wrong in doing this though :dunno:

I learned the oil soak thing in a forum on the internet so I thought I would give it a try. Hey, afetr all, if the info is from the internet, it has got to be true right? :dunno:








JK

I soak mine on 20W/50 then throw it in the air box all drippin with oil to make sure it gets all the bad dust out of my engine. I may be wrong in doing this though :dunno:

I learned the oil soak thing in a forum on the internet so I thought I would give it a try. Hey, afetr all, if the info is from the internet, it has got to be true right? :dunno:








JK

That works pretty well, but only AFTER you ignite it. The oil smoke works wonders for your fuel economy.

I soak mine on 20W/50 then throw it in the air box all drippin with oil to make sure it gets all the bad dust out of my engine. I may be wrong in doing this though :dunno:

I learned the oil soak thing in a forum on the internet so I thought I would give it a try. Hey, afetr all, if the info is from the internet, it has got to be true right? :dunno:

JK

You guys are starting to scare me...mostly because you're making more sense than the rest of this thread. Beer Here!!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

*B, double E, double R, U, N, beerrun*


... somebody ban me


GO COLTS


ok,ok I'm done now. I contributed absolutely nothing to this thread.

Any more bricks, Anyone, Bueller, Anyone????? :bricks1: :bricks1::bricks1:

Hey GMMerlin....I think you made a typo on the comments about high O2 telling the computer that there is a rich condition.....

(I asked this on an earlier post) In one post, you said that the O2 sensors are in charge. That's what I think happens. In the next post, you said that the computer tries to control the air/fuel ratio at 14.7. Since there will be times when the inlet mixture (that you said is based on VOLUME) will give you a rich condition (like, at high altitude), won't the computer change the ratio?

OK last time...
I think you made a typo on the comments about high O2 telling the computer that there is a rich condition.....
Stop trying to think, it doesn't serve you well..just listen.
High O2 reading = rich exhaust
Low O2 reading = lean exhaust
O2 sensors read the oxygen content in the exhaust, the reading (voltage) goes low if there is alot of oxygen (lean condition) and the voltage goes high if there is a low oxygen content in the exhaust (rich condition)

The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
It does this by using the input from the O2 sensors (along with some other sensors) to determine if the injectors need to open or close longer to add or remove fuel to keep the engine at the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
This adjustment is constant as the engine is running (hence the reason O2 voltages constantly go up and down)
If the O2 goes low (lean) , the PCM will compensate by opening the injector a little longer (positive fuel trim) and if the reading goes high (rich) the PCM will compensate by closing the injector sooner (negative fuel trim)

How come I get a headache everytime I respond to your posts? :banghead:

OK last time...

Stop trying to think, it doesn't serve you well..just listen.
High O2 reading = rich exhaust
Low O2 reading = lean exhaust
O2 sensors read the oxygen content in the exhaust, the reading (voltage) goes low if there is alot of oxygen (lean condition) and the voltage goes high if there is a low oxygen content in the exhaust (rich condition)

The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
It does this by using the input from the O2 sensors (along with some other sensors) to determine if the injectors need to open or close longer to add or remove fuel to keep the engine at the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
This adjustment is constant as the engine is running (hence the reason O2 voltages constantly go up and down)
If the O2 goes low (lean) , the PCM will compensate by opening the injector a little longer (positive fuel trim) and if the reading goes high (rich) the PCM will compensate by closing the injector sooner (negative fuel trim)

How come I get a headache everytime I respond to your posts? :banghead:


I tried to warn him... DON'T ARGUE WITH THE MASTER!

OK last time...

Stop trying to think, it doesn't serve you well..just listen.
High O2 reading = rich exhaust
Low O2 reading = lean exhaust
O2 sensors read the oxygen content in the exhaust, the reading (voltage) goes low if there is alot of oxygen (lean condition) and the voltage goes high if there is a low oxygen content in the exhaust (rich condition)

The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
It does this by using the input from the O2 sensors (along with some other sensors) to determine if the injectors need to open or close longer to add or remove fuel to keep the engine at the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
This adjustment is constant as the engine is running (hence the reason O2 voltages constantly go up and down)
If the O2 goes low (lean) , the PCM will compensate by opening the injector a little longer (positive fuel trim) and if the reading goes high (rich) the PCM will compensate by closing the injector sooner (negative fuel trim)






How come I get a headache everytime I respond to your posts? :banghead:

Why are you getting so insulting......

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.

Why are you getting so insulting......

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.

You may as well be arguing with a dictionary...

Why are you getting so insulting......

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.

I can see your point. That was the question I was having. If I were to run a ram air or turbo, would that much more fuel pour into my engine in proportion? If FIPK means I have to use less throttle, does that mean that now using less throttle means using more gas with less foot? It sort of kills the idea of more air being more effecient. I dread the thought of the miledge I'd get under those conditions. Somewhere along the way, the system has to adjust itself to run effeciently as wel as effectively. I say this only because I have questions and doubts. I've been searching the net looking for a legitimate site out there that'll explain how the ratio works and how mass air volume effects it.

I question all claims at this point. The acetone gig is an example. I tried it according to prescription and yielded no improvement (tried with two cars)!!! Now I have some acetone sitting in my toxic cabinet in my garage waiting for another use...no big deal. Opinions are like toes..most perople have at least ten of them...me included!!! And as stated before..the internet is full of it.

I have an idea. buy the filter, or kit. Try it, if you dont like it, sell it. There, a simple answer that you can't argue with.

Just take a look at most people's list of mods....7 out of 10 include a K&N cold air kit. Numbers speak louder than words sometimes.

I have an idea. buy the filter, or kit. Try it, if you dont like it, sell it. There, a simple answer that you can't argue with.

Just take a look at most people's list of mods....7 out of 10 include a K&N cold air kit. Numbers speak louder than words sometimes.
:werd:

Why are you getting so insulting......

Because I have explained this numerous times and you are not getting it :banghead:

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

This is what I said “The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.” I didn’t say it DOES maintain a 14.7 to 1 ratio, I said it TRIES to maintain the ratio.
As the throttle plate moves, more air enters the intake, combustion chamber (and will enter the exhaust) The TPS, MAF, ETC,IAT and the MAP sensors also help with fuel control, but the O2 sensors are the main input that tells the PCM to attempt to maintain the 14.7 to 1 ratio.
On acceleration we will see a slightly richer mixture, on decell we will see a slightly leaner mixture the O2 sensors see this change and the PCM will make adjustments (most of the time, this occurs at idle or while maintaining a steady throttle position, but this could occur during a change in throttle position where a larger or smaller change in O2 voltages was seen)
Here is an example. Vehicle hesitates on acceleration and the O2 voltage goes to 150mv (lean).
When the PCM sees this lean condition, fuel trims will go positive to compensate for this lean condition (injector on time will be longer).
These fuel trims can be done over a short time (short adjustment) or a long time (gross adjustment) depending on if the PCM can compensate for the condition.
The condition could be caused by a low fuel pressure concern.
This is how the PCM tries to maintain the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
Fuel delivery strategies are calculated for different operating conditions to take in account throttle positions and engine loads.




So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

No problem, but you have to be careful when comparing operating systems.
Apples and Oranges




I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.


Ok here is what I said “The high efficiency filter may increase MPG based on VOLUME.
If you can create the same horse power using less air, you will reduce the need for fuel and still maintain the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio and this is the theory of high efficiency air filters.”
Now this may not be clear.
The theory of these air filters is that they make it easier for the engine to pull in air.
If I can pull in 15 cubic feet of air at 10% TPS with a standard air filter and I can pull in 25 cubic feet of air at 10% TPS with a high efficiency air filter, I can pull a larger volume of air at the same throttle position.
This means that in theory I use less throttle to get the same amount of air and this is how they claim that you can see a MPG increase.
I believe this theory is flawed, but using the same numbers, I can see where you could get an increase in power because if you can increase the amount of air you pull into the combustion chamber while pulling in more fuel at the same throttle position, you will see an increase in power (this is the theory of turbo and super chargers along with nitrous oxide) MORE AIR + MORE FUEL = MORE POWER



(which you youself said reads in grams/sec)
I never said that in this conversation. :screwy:

Now I need a Tylenol and a double shot of Jack Daniels

Now I need a Tylenol and a double shot of Jack Daniels

I've got the Tylenol if you've got the Jack!!:grinyes:

Right! Improvement in full throttle performance, but most likely, no mpg improvement. You even get better throttle response, because at the same throttle position, you get more air with the fancy filter, and the computer sends the appropriate amount of additional fuel.

But, you see that both air/fuel AND the O2 sensor reading can be controlled....they are not independent. If a long-term condition exists where both the O2 and ratio can't be at their target, which one wins? (This was my original question from the thread that was merged.) Will the ratio stay at a point different from its target to keep the O2 on target, or will it be the other way around?

This is important, because if the ratio is in charge, all you need to do to run lean is to fake out the MAFS. When you read the posts about tornado intake thing, it makes you believe that the O2 sensors are in charge. Apparently, it temporarily fakes out the MAFS, and makes the engine run lean for a short time. Then once the O2 sensors are back on target, everything is back to normal, and there is no mpg increase.

Don't you think that ratio of 14.7 is a weird coincidence? (14.7 psi = 1 atm.)

Believe me....you're not the only one getting a headache......

I have an idea. buy the filter, or kit. Try it, if you dont like it, sell it. There, a simple answer that you can't argue with.

Just take a look at most people's list of mods....7 out of 10 include a K&N cold air kit. Numbers speak louder than words sometimes.


I have a cheaper idea...... Tape a piece of cardboard over 1/5 of the intake side of the air filter. You'll have to mash the gas pedal more to get the same acceleration and maintain your normal cruising speed, but I bet, if you did this for 3 tanks of gas, you would,'t see a change in mpg. Then, you could sell the cardboard.

man, let it go

I have a cheaper idea...... Tape a piece of cardboard over 1/5 of the intake side of the air filter. You'll have to mash the gas pedal more to get the same acceleration and maintain your normal cruising speed, but I bet, if you did this for 3 tanks of gas, you would,'t see a change in mpg. Then, you could sell the cardboard.And I bet I'd make more off the cardboard than you have off of your thoughts on this topic.

I'll tell you what. You keep your cardboard. And I'll give you my FIPK. If you like it, you give me $13478.

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

Same here,didn't help one little bit.I could have used that money for gas.

I need a little advise. How would I clean the MAF? I bought this thing with 28k on it and it now has 31k. I decided to change air filter today and "low and behold" It has a K&N filter in it. The MAF didn't seem to be oily and I took a paper towel and lightly wiped everything I could. Can I spray it with carb cleaner or what?

Also, you might check out Horsepower TV (which is the name of the show, check your local listings), on Spike TV this coming Saturday (Saturday, October 29 @ 11:00 AM). I've seen this episode before, and they install a K&N FIPK on a 94 mustang and dyno it before and after the install. I forgot what the exact HP gains were, but they are definitely there. Anyway, i just thought I'd throw that out there.

Youse guys are funny!!!! I admit I noticed a bigger difference with my carburated '72 Blazer after adding a K&N. I had a solid 10% gain in mileage as well as better throttle response. Of course the Blazer is carb'd, with 2 vacuum lines, and points. No computer to argue with. I also admit I haven't noticed as obvious a difference in my '04 TBI 4.3 V6. I didn't get 10%, but did notice a slight increase in mileage, and I'm happy I have an air filter that will last the life of the truck. By the time I have run this thing into the ground, I would have spent as much or more on paper filters anyway. I took a hard look at a site that showed dyno comparisons between a regular paper filter, and an FIPK kit. For my application, the gains weren't noticable until the engine got up around 4,000 rpm and higher. I rarely run mine in that range, so I just opted for the filter only.

Here is a site you might want to chck out on air filters.
home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm
MT-2500