My ARB installer will not touch most
modified ARB's.

FSRBIKER in the Nissan 4x4 forum
mentioned that the Automotive Customerizer
ARB front locker involved a minor modification.

I emailed A/C and while their reply did not
state how it was modified, they did state
that ARB warranted their version.

I showed the A/C email to my installer.
He called ARB and they said:
Yes - ARB would warranty the A/C version
No - they did not know what changes where involved.
(other than they were not 'structural'.)
They would know about this time in July
(one on order?)

Based on the above, my installer said he
would install it.

I ordered it ($695) and it was installed today.
$300 for installation.

Slight chance I will be able to try it out
these weekend. If not, then the following
weekend pretty much for sure.

Good news. IIRC, there is a pin that AC shaves a small amount of material from, that's it. Don't quote me on that though.

There's a guy on the AC board with a Pathfinder that simply fused his front diff together rather than shell out the $ for a front locker. I've heard of doing this in the rear and I wouldn't even consider it, but ya know, for the front it doesn't sound too bad!

With free-running hubs, there is absolutely no difference on the street since the wheels can still rotate indepedantly in turns when unlocked. Of course, once you're in 4WD, you're always locked. The only drawback I know of there is that there is always the chance of increased stress on the axles even when you woudn't otherwise need the extra traction, but it shouldn't be much more risk than an auto-locker that can kick in at any time and load the axles the same anyway.

Yes, I know it isn't the best solution, but it seems to me a cheap way without much risk. Anyone else want to chime in, feel free.

Brent

Originally posted by OffroadX

Yes, I know it isn't the best solution, but it seems to me a cheap way without much risk. Anyone else want to chime in, feel free.

Brent

Well, Here's my take. I would be more likely to weld the rear diff before I would even consider welding the front.

Why you might ask. Have you ever tried to turn a locked front 4x4. It's a scary and tough chore when a locker is used that will allow slippage and will release. However, if the diff is welded, then it will never release. This is a problem for manual hubs as well as automatics. The manual hubs will bind and you will be unable to unlock them if needed to turn tightly. Automatic hubs just wouldnot unlock at all..:(

If you always wheel in open areas where tight turning is not required, then this might work for you. but imagine this: You are on a switchback where a 100+ ft dropoff is on 1 side, conditions won't allow you to drop back to 2wd and the welded diff up front will not allow you to make the turn...What do you do after cleaning up your seat after nearly driving off the edge...:frog:

The ARB is a good choice up front. Or some other limited slip or soft locker. Turning radius could be what keeps you from driving off the side of a mountain. That requires the front tires to spin at different rates...They guys I know with Detroit lockers in the front all have them setup for the trails they normally run. They are setup to turn better in one direction or the other...

But then again that's just my take..

Wilbur

Ah, good point. I knew there had to be a catch.
This is why the rock crawler guys have those custom rear e-brake setups so they can lock the inside rear wheel and pivot around on it, front locker be damned.

Brent

Originally posted by OffroadX


There's a guy on the AC board with a Pathfinder that simply fused his front diff together rather than shell out the $ for a front locker. I've heard of doing this in the rear and I wouldn't even consider it, but ya know, for the front it doesn't sound too bad!



Hello X men! Well I thought I would chime in with my .02 cents on the welded locker deal. I wheel with Robby"cruisearound" and just got back from a week long Nissan run here in CO. Anyway that front locker is a really good idea if you don't have the bucks to add one yourself.
Most of the time he will travel in 2 lo with the fronts unlocked, hub, but when he needs extra traction he will only lock on side. Thus giving him "3 wheel drive" for max traction he will lock up both sides in the front when wheeling something that requires it. With only one side locked you can turn freely on the trail and still get traction.
He only has a lsd in the rear but he said he will probably get the ARB locker pretty soon for the rear, he wouldn't even consider welding the rear, especially with the amount of snow driving we do and the huge amount of stress that puts on your rear.
So imo I would definatley consider welding the front diff before I ever welded the rear, only if you have manual hubs and you can put up with getting in and out of your truck ALOT! I'm too lazy to do that so I will just get the front ARB soon.
Later.

an1malch1n--cool stuff, thanks for the info on how that setup worked. You make it sound mighty tempting indeed, although again the issue of snow driving (esp. on the highway) comes to mind as the only reason I personally might not go that route. Have to see...

Goth I agree with the snow issue. It definately could become one. Next time I go wheeling with him or email him I will be sure to ask how he deals with the snow.
BTW we both live in CO and the snow is definatley an issue for us also.

For my two cents on the snow question. Snow and lockers go hand in hand in most cases. When they don't is when you factor in ice. Then they are not cool! You are better off with open diffs on ice. This is the reason I chose to go the ARB route. I go skiing several times a year in the winter and like to take my truck. Since some of the driving is on ice and some on snow, the ARBs give me the option of choosing what driveline I want to run. The locker comes in handy when I hit the unmaintained roads to go cross-country skiing or snowshoeing. Otherwise I leave them open.

Originally posted by an1malch1n


Most of the time he will travel in 2 lo with the fronts unlocked, hub, but when he needs extra traction he will only lock one side. Thus giving him "3 wheel drive" for max traction he will lock up both sides in the front when wheeling something that requires it. With only one side locked you can turn freely on the trail and still get traction.


I met a guy the other day with a Jeep CJ that had the same setup. He said the front diff was welded and when I asked about difficulty steering, he said that he just locked one of the hubs. I had never heard of anyone doing that. I guess it makes sense though.

I have read two separate tests where front only lockered jeeps were compared to rear only and fully lockered jeeps.

Both reports found that a front lockered jeep will out perform a rear lockered jeep, albeit a fully locked jeep outperforms both.

The tests all involved jeeps, but I think the principle should be analogous to X's. This means that an ARB front locker might be the better choice than a rear, if you could only have one.

The primary finding was that going up hill, most of the weight is on the rear tires...so traction is abundant, even if only one tire is pushing...but the more lightly weighted fronts are typically scrabbling for traction...and locking them provides a larger overall traction boost. On rock hopping...being able to claw over an obstacle with the fronts, instead of bumping and gunning the rears, etc...was more productive as well. Throw in the typical availability of standard rear LSD's anyway...and the front locker choice makes a lot of sense.

Just thought I'd throw this out there in case anyone with front /rear/open set-up want to do an X specific version of this test, so the rest of us can learn from your Xperiment.


- Lance

Originally posted by Lance
I have read two separate tests where front only lockered jeeps were compared to rear only and fully lockered jeeps.

Both reports found that a front lockered jeep will out perform a rear lockered jeep, albeit a fully locked jeep outperforms both.



I have always heard that the opposite is true????? That a locker is more important in the rear than the front. I have a CJ5 with a Detroit in the rear, open in the front.

Originally posted by Lance
The primary finding was that going up hill, most of the weight is on the rear tires...so traction is abundant, even if only one tire is pushing...

Umm...if you're not locked already, how are you going to have only one tire pushing?

Actually...if you are locked you'll have two tires pushing... you'll only have one tire pushing if you are not locked. (The locking makes the two turn together)

The open diff units sadly power the tire with the least torque, a bass ackwards design if I ever saw one.

- Lance

Originally posted by Lance
Actually...if you are locked you'll have two tires pushing... you'll only have one tire pushing if you are not locked. (The locking makes the two turn together)

The open diff units sadly power the tire with the least torque, a bass ackwards design if I ever saw one.

- Lance


Boy, you must think everyone on this board is a real idiot, huh?

Maybe at some point you'll stop posting the obvious over and over.

My point is, if you're not locked, you're NOT going to have "one tire pushing." You're going to have one tire spinning, OR both will have some traction.

Originally posted by gothamist


Boy, you must think everyone on this board is a real idiot, huh?

Maybe at some point you'll stop posting the obvious over and over.

My point is, if you're not locked, you're NOT going to have "one tire pushing." You're going to have one tire spinning, OR both will have some traction.

To be honest, I wasn't following what you were trying to say either. :)

Perhaps I was a tad hasty in flaming Lance, but come on. We're talking about front lockers and he thinks it neccessary to mention what exactly a locker does, yet five posts above the discussion was about the merits of and techniques for driving with the front diff welded shut. Come on...

Goth - I'm not sure how you decided what I think of every one here based upon the above statement... but if I offended you, (Or the people you are representing) I appologize.

The fact is, I don't really know ANYONE here. The posts I had read thus far did not indicate any particular base line of knowledge...seemed to range all over actually.

My original thread was merely mentioning that I had read two separate tests that indicated front lockers out performed rears.

They did NOT say that that was the best choice for every one...steering issues for example would be on obvious on-street compromise....so, for the vast majority of people..a rear locker is actually a better choice if they can have only one...

Unless offroad is their priority...in which case the front is better....but, an ARB locker, that worked so as to allow JUST THE FRONT to operate, would theoretically give you the best of both worlds.

I believe I was asking if anyone wanted to try an X specific experiment that would confirm or disprove the results of the admittedly Jeep based front - vs - rear locker comparisons....should the ability to operate the front locker, by itself, become an option. (That was the relevent part)

On the spinning tire vs traction thing...(Forgive my ignorance of the workings if I am wrong...and feel free to explain it to me...I won't be offended)

I thought the open diff'd tire with the least torque received the power...and if it had some traction...the X would move anyway.

It would only spin if it couldn't grab some thing. (If an open diff only spun tires...I don't think they'd be worth anything on road either.)

So - Assuming an open diff can move you at all...I figured it would move you with the tire with the least torque...and the other tire would essentially just be along for the ride...

and, if I'm going to get stuck with only two tires on a traction surface...and they are at opposite corners of the open diff'd X...the tires with the least torque will be the one's getting all the go go juice...and they spin w/o traction...and the other two, essentially along for the ride...just sit there waiting, and essentially contribute squat....so I'm stuck.

So - If I am moving due to an open diff...I think I am pretty much being pushed by one tire when both tires have fairly equal traction...and I am pretty much stuck if one has too little traction..as that's the one getting the power now.

If any of the above was too obvious, I again apologize in advance. I am just saying what I believe to be true, so that you can see what I meant by all of the prior stuff, and correct me from that point if you need to.

I'm serious about asking you explaining this to me if I'm wrong...I have the rear LSD, but froad several other rigs too (More time actually than the X...)..and some are (Gasp) all open. So - (Really) - Enlighten me! I fear ignorance more than pride. :)

If I am the only one here with (a) misconception(s)...and my error(s) too obvious to every one else on the board to waste post bandwidth on explaining the obvious...feel free to e mail your correction to me if you wouldn't mind. I want to know that badly.


- Lance

OK - Its been a few days now...

Can I feel secure in my understanding of how these things work then?

;)

Lance

I read you post very quickly. I'm at work, so I must admit, I didn't pay very close attention.

Take a look at the following link from the Powertrax website. I think it explains what you are wondering.

http://www.powertrax.com/traction.htm

I jumped over to the Powertrax site....to look for the part about one tire getting all of the power -vs- some of it...and it sdoes say one tire with the least traction gets all of the power, meaning the other gets none.

I was under the impression that that was the case. They don't make open diffs...but I should think they have a vested interest in the topic....so I guess that means I was correct before. Assuming Powertrax is correct...


So - Does this mean someone might want to duplicate the front vs rear locker test with an IFS set up, now that we have established the principles involved?

We just need a volunteer with the ability to run the front diff locked alone, and then the back alone, and then both...over and over on what ever varied terrain they could find....at this point, any info is better than none.

So - Who actually HAS this ability? :D

:confused: there are only a handful of people who have lockers. I'm not sure if anyone is locked front and rear. Maybe one or two people.

I know several people who are waiting for the powertrax no slip to become available, but that is only for the rear, and its automatic.

You would need to find someone who had both front and rear ARB air lockers. Not sure if there is anyone.

Good luck in your search.

Personally, I'm going with the powertrax noslip in the rear and I'll leave the front alone for awhile. Got tons and tons of other mods before I'll worry about the front.

Yeah, its slim pickens...

I'm stuck with open front/lsd assed...so I'm useless for this...I talked to a precious few who are working towards this set up though...the few brave (Adequately funded) souls...the vanguards of X-Dom...


That front locker thing just piques my curiosity though....so I pursue it...maybe I'll end up with an intermediate front ARB (Or OX Locker/E Locker, what the hell...) and a rear LSD...:bloated:


- You can't go wrong with the No-Slip! I don't know anyone who has them and didn't like it. :D

If you really want to bug somebody Nissan Mike(4x4parts.com) has his X all locked up with the ARB's.
My front won't be locked until I decide what the hell I'm going to do with it???? At the latest next March/April and that will be with the ARB.

There we go then!

Ok - We run the tests in the spring...analyze the data, and publish in the summer....works for me! :D

That's two IFS species, and at least one additional X I think....should be plenty.

And anyone who runs local trails with any two lockers, and has the rear break...can drag themselves back to compare a front only run or three to how they usually do there...

We may finally find out if the IFS works as well front locked as the live axle bretheren.:flash: