Taken from http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P123244.asp



The tinge of desperation hanging in the air over Detroit over the past few months has now given way to a dark sky teeming with thunder, lightning and swirling black clouds of doom. Enviously eyeing General Motors' (GM, news, msgs) wildly successful (at least for the short term) "Employee Pricing for Everyone" sales promotion program, DaimlerChrysler (DCX, news, msgs) and Ford (F, news, msgs) felt they had no other choice but to follow the world's biggest automaker -- right off the cliff into Price War Hell.

As if skeptical American car- and truck-buying consumers needed any more evidence that considering anything "American" (other than a few laudable exceptions) was useful only if you were in search of "the deal" -- this latest lemming-like embarrassment from Detroit has solidified consumer mindsets for good.


The most compelling evidence that Detroit has gone absolutely stark-raving mad? The Chrysler Group's pathetic nostalgia trip in bringing back Lee Iacocca to push their "employee pricing" discount program. In a market that couldn't care less about anything having to do with "Detroit" -- how could anyone possibly rationalize that dredging up a guy whose time had officially passed easily 10 years ago would have consumers waxing nostalgic about Detroit's "good old days?" This from Chrysler, a car company that had at least a modicum of momentum going with their 300/300C and whose executives love reminding the media every chance they get that they're smarter than the folks down at GM and Ford -- and that only they are the ones who well and truly have their stuff together in this town.

Credibility down the tubes
Well, apparently, they've run out of talent in Auburn Hills, because this newest venture into Geezer Marketing with a dollop of washed-up Seinfeld refugee thrown in for good measure (Jason Alexander utters the hackneyed phrase, "If you can find a better car, buy it") is proof positive that the Chrysler Group is no better than the rest of 'em and that left to their own devices, they won't hesitate to take the whole sordid business of commodity automotive marketing down a few more notches if it will "break through the clutter."

There's that magic marketing/advertising catch-all phrase again. Chrysler executives felt that they had to "break through the clutter" in order to bring attention to their "employee discount" program. My question to them is: When the clutter you're attempting to break through is bull to begin with, how do you expect to make shine-ola out of it? Or, in other words, multiple negatives will never equal a positive, no matter how you formulate it.

Enough about Chrysler -- they will tell everybody who will listen that their program is smarter and wildly successful, but for my money, it's just one more reason for the consumers "out there" in the real world to dismiss Detroit as shameless hucksters who push hype and marketing sizzle instead of products that people actually want.


"If you can find a better car, buy it" happens to encapsulate everything wrong with Detroit in its current guise. American consumers have been finding better cars from non-Detroit car companies for the last two decades and buying them in droves. And now that Detroit is actually building some pretty damn good products, they can't for the life of them figure out why consumers don't believe them. And why should they? They're now conditioned to wait a little longer for the best possible deal, instead of taking note of the improved quality ratings and positive reviews of the new products coming from Detroit. In other words, consumers are looking at Detroit products for all of the wrong reasons -- while the "new and improved" message is getting lost in the shuffle.

In a business that revolves around the integrity of the product, Detroit automakers have successfully squandered what little shred of credibility they had left and their last real opportunity to convince consumers that they finally have the products worthy of serious consideration -- because they just couldn't contain themselves and take the long-term view. Instead, they strapped their 30-day sales goggles on, disengaged their brains and in the process rendered anything from a Detroit car company as a commodity once and for all -- one only to be considered if it's cheap enough.

What do they do for an encore?
So, here we are -- when you give employee pricing to everyone, what's next? GM insists that after this big, final blowout sales push they can calmly "flip a switch" and show up in the fall with "value pricing" on their hot, new 2006 models and they will be back on the road to momentum and profitability. As Coach Lee Corso says, "Not so fast, my friend." The bottom line for GM is that they're fighting their own recent history as "America's Discount Auto Company.”

In spite of a slew of very desirable products on the way from GM, there will be no flipping a switch to convince consumers that GM's vehicles are worthy of consideration on their own. GM has buried itself in a discount box. As a matter of fact, GM has now become America's "Big Box" Automotive Retailer. No matter how good their new products will be or how good the reviews are, there are legions of consumers out there who will only look at a GM product as a commodity to be procured with the best possible deal. And after five years of discount retailing, it will take years, not quarters, but years for GM to shed that image.

As for Ford and Chrysler, following GM into the abyss was more about ego than anything else. Detroit automakers can't stand to see their competitors being successful -- it drives them crazy and forces them to do monumentally stupid things. GM and Chrysler can't stand to see the Mustang being a hit, so now they want in to that segment, even though it will be 2008 before they're ready with their "me-too" entries. And GM and Ford can't stand to see Chrysler having a hit with their rear-wheel-drive 300/300C, so now they're investigating "in-your-face" designs of their own. And now, here we have Chrysler and Ford, eyeing GM's monster month of June and wanting in on the action, even though it requires suspension of all rational thought.

For Ford, it's yet another case of lacking a big marketing idea of their own, so they tend to go whichever way the market leads them - no big surprise here. For Chrysler, they actually believe in their hearts that they're smarter than everyone else -- their potent brew of German-American Kool-Aid is apparently that good. So what do they do? They dredge up a prehistoric automotive icon who will signal to everyone once and for all that Detroit is out of touch, out of time -- and officially out of ideas. Nice.



It's sad but true... That's how I feel about it. The worst part is that they're going to go to congress and beg them to save their butts. That will be bad for the consumer.

what the hell is the point of this? this is retarded. and ford lacking big marketing ideas... hmm well i guess someone didnt think about the new mustangs. and rediculousnumber of trucks they sell. and american have been pretty reliable since the ealry 90's. its not that new, the lemon law days are long since passed my friend

I agree with the article... the domestic company's need to step their game up a bit.

They went too long being mediocre, and let the Import cars pass them in design and quality. Now, they're coming back but people are still a tad skeptical.

GM would of had a large share of the market now had it not cancelled out his rear-drive platforms in '96 (Impalla/Caprice) and in '02 (Camaro/Firebird).

Sure they said it'd cost too much to make the F-body comply to the new safety regulations. Who knows if that's true, maybe that was their scapegoat to cancel a car that was out sold by the V6 Mustang.

Owning a F-body, I can tell you why people would probably prefer the Mustang. Visability while driving the Camaro is kinda a pain in the ass, lots of blind spots. And entering and exiting the vehicle, it's hard to look cool while getting out of the car while you're fighting to get out. In those respects... yes the Mustang is much better and civil.

But the F-Body was the superior performance car just about every year it was produced in comparison to the Mustang.

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.

I do agree with one thing. Chrysler and Ford should have never followed GM's path to destruction. I saw it coming, but I hoped to be wrong. Well, I wonder how the guys at Toyota and Honda are going to react. Hopefully they have enough sense to just wait this employee discount thing out.

The worst part is that they're going to go to congress and beg them to save their butts. That will be bad for the consumer.

And that, my friends, is why a Z06 is cheaper than an ///M3.

Anyways, its a pretty much known fact that all the American auto companies copy each other (regarding the portion speaking about the Mustang, so now GM/Chrysler are brining out their own models)...I mean, wasn't the first Camaro deisgned, built, and market less than 11 months after the first Mustang? Thats pretty damn impressive.

I know alot of people who wont buy a Dodge/Chrysler product becuase they believe that their upper management some convinced the guys at Benz to spend more time on the Dodge/Chrysler cars than their own. In result, yeah Dodge and Chrysler have become nice cars, but Benz has gone down hill.

I'm not gonna say anything about GM, I have my feelings regarding GM products, and they won't be changing anytime soon.

Ford...wow. Well, I'll be honest. I dislike Ford to the point of almost hating them (oddly enough my first real introduction to the automotive world was a report on the Ford Motor Company's evolution). I feel they have ruined respectable car brands (Mazda and Volvo), and ran out of good ideas back in 1980...however, oddly enough again, the only two Domestic cars I'd even consider purchasing at this time are both Fords (kinda...an 03 S/C Cobra with a Keene Bell SC, or a 03 Saleen).

TheStang00....I think your missing the point. There is nothing new about the new Mustang. None whatsoever...its the car that should have been released in 99, not 04. All it is is a retro body design, something Dodge had been doing (Prowler and PT Cruiser, anyone?). And IMHO, if I wanted a car that looked like an early Mustang with a more modern motor....I'd buy an old Mustang and put a new motor in it. And yes, Domestics have been becoming more reliable since the early 90s...But both Asian and Euro imports HAVE BEEN reliable since before the 90s.

And with the way gas prices are going, I feel (and oh so gladly do I feel) that the age of the SUV and Truck is comming to an end. I was talking to a friend who owns a few Ford dealerships here in Texas, and even he told me that at his dealerships, sales of trucks (Including SUVs, not just those stupid pickups) has been declining. And oh so gladly have I noticed fewer and fewer SUVs on the road.

I agree with alot of what this article is saying. There isn't anything really special comming out of the domestic markets at all. The new Mustang? Its just a retro body design that finally has a powerfull motor. The Cobalt SS? GM did what many serious Sunfire/Cavy tuners have already been doing, and add a Supercharger to a four banger. The Dodge Charger? An abomination of the only clasic car I would want to own. I mean, really. Take a step back, and look at what kind of cars that the Domestic Manufacturers are offering...and tell me whats so new or special or revolutionary about them. And then, before you tell me...find out how many of them came from ideas already put out by the European and Asian manufacturers that said Domestic brands own...or are owned by.

I agree with the article... the domestic company's need to step their game up a bit.

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.

Ah, an advantage to working at a GM dealership. I've talked with TWO GM reps who have confirmed the return of the Camaro in the 07-08 model years. So whoopedee doo to that, the car should have never had to make a return, and it wont be called an FBody(obviously). I do not agree entirely with that article although it makes some strong points, basically, what they're saying is that they're disappointed in the Detroit companies for losing credibility and quality, and then at the same time they're bashing on them for trying to gain it back any way they can...Also so what if there's cheesy marketing involved, you do what you gotta do to get consumers, that's the beauty of a free market. Detroit companies are not out of ideas, they're biding their time, were gonna see some damn good cars in the near future, and hopefully they wont need congress to help them out.

I agree with the article... the domestic company's need to step their game up a bit.

They went too long being mediocre, and let the Import cars pass them in design and quality. Now, they're coming back but people are still a tad skeptical.

GM would of had a large share of the market now had it not cancelled out his rear-drive platforms in '96 (Impalla/Caprice) and in '02 (Camaro/Firebird).

Sure they said it'd cost too much to make the F-body comply to the new safety regulations. Who knows if that's true, maybe that was their scapegoat to cancel a car that was out sold by the V6 Mustang.

Owning a F-body, I can tell you why people would probably prefer the Mustang. Visability while driving the Camaro is kinda a pain in the ass, lots of blind spots. And entering and exiting the vehicle, it's hard to look cool while getting out of the car while you're fighting to get out. In those respects... yes the Mustang is much better and civil.

But the F-Body was the superior performance car just about every year it was produced in comparison to the Mustang.

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.




They could be set up for a MAJOR failure if they go down the retro styling route and putting V8s in everything. Look at gas prices. They're not going down anytime soon. While it is true that today's V8s get a whole lot better gas mileage than they did 30+ years ago, which is what you'd expect, domestics do not get as good of a gas mileage in just about every category as the Japanese cars do.

BTW I'm really glad that the SUV/Truck age is coming to an end. I'll finally be able to see more than 2 cars ahead of me in traffic.

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.

i dont dissagree with this part of what you said for the most part, but in my opinion i think gm and dodge are completely butchering their "throwback" looks. like the new camaro concept looks more like a 350z than a camaro. also, if you were running a buisness and a competetor was doing something that worked, wouldnt you follow? it happens all the time i dont think its anything new, thats why everyone is trying to copy the retro idea that ford started. and thats why pepsi developed wild cherry pepsi.

i dont dissagree with this part of what you said for the most part, but in my opinion i think gm and dodge are completely butchering their "throwback" looks. like the new camaro concept looks more like a 350z than a camaro. also, if you were running a buisness and a competetor was doing something that worked, wouldnt you follow? it happens all the time i dont think its anything new, thats why everyone is trying to copy the retro idea that ford started. and thats why pepsi developed wild cherry pepsi.


Im pretty sure the PT Crusier and Prowler came out before the Retro Thunderbird and Retro Stang

I like all the opinions here...its really interesting stuff

lemme see, where to start...incentives...its amazing how long those stupid incentives have been going on and how dumb car companies are to kep them going... In introductory business they taught not to do what some car companies are doing...if you keep low prices to drive up sales or drive out competition after a while the public gets used to it, and when u try to raise prices, everyone turns away from ur product

Camaro 07-08?...awesome! shes definately on my list of cars to look at when i graduate...

Mustang? I like the look personally, but they sorta dicked around with the mustang making inferior products for too long

as for the rebirth of muscle...I can't afford gas at the prices their at, and after bitching at my fuel miser RSX for having to fill the tank at the gas prices...I dunno if my wallet will let me purchase a V8

Im pretty sure the PT Crusier and Prowler came out before the Retro Thunderbird and Retro Stang

i dont know about anyone else here... but i never thought of those as retro, and the prowler came out a long time ago. i think the prowler looks more like an indy car than retro... the pt cruiser, well i just thought it was ugly, retro never crossed my mind

Ugly yes, but retro as well. Both were based of the old designs of cars long past, with new touches.

ok i get ur point, but what spectacular things are the japanese car companies doing? you might not have thought the new mustang was spectacular, but it sure sold a hell of a lot. the japanese just got the economy car thing down as far as im concerned, and domestics have gotten on that boat recently, as you said theres the cobalt, and the focus which i think they should bring the focus RS over here for some competition for the srt-4 and cobalt ss, and theres the neons and whatnot, theres also stratuses. and i know the 2.0 zetec in the focus gets just as good gas milage as civics, the toyotas are another story but they make no power. so i really fail to see what imports are doing that domestics arent, now the lasting image problem that you say exists from previous years, well im to young to have experienced that, as long as ive been around theyve been fine. my 1990 escort was at 250k and still ran good when we got rid of it.

ok i get ur point, but what spectacular things are the japanese car companies doing? For the most part, not a whole hell of a lot because they've, well, already done everything.

you might not have thought the new mustang was spectacular, but it sure sold a hell of a lot.
Honda sold a whole hell of a lot of Civics, BMW a whole hell of a lot of 325s and 330s, and Dodge a whole hell of a lot of Neons. Honda has also sold a good amount of NSXs, BMW a good number of ///Ms, and Dodge a good number of SRT-4s. What makes the Mustang being sold so special?

the japanese just got the economy car thing down as far as im concerned, and domestics have gotten on that boat recently, as you said theres the cobalt, and the focus which i think they should bring the focus RS over here for some competition for the srt-4 and cobalt ss, and theres the neons and whatnot, theres also stratuses.
And they and the Europeans also have the sports car market down to. Again, they've been making cars that compete with big V8s with smaller engines that get better miliage, and are far more efficient. The Cobalt SS is just a factory version of what many serious Cavy/Sunfire owners, such as -Jayson- have been doing for a good amount of time now, and adding a supercharger...wow, thats such a major huge advancement. Doing what aftermarket nuts have been doing already. The SRT-4 is great, especially for the price, but its no EVO or STi.

and i know the 2.0 zetec in the focus gets just as good gas milage as civics, the toyotas are another story but they make no power.
Yes, thats nice, but they still don't have the reliability reputation that Civics and Toyotas have, and when someone is shopping solely on mpg stats, I seriously doubt that power output means dirt from dogshit for them. Plus, I dare you to put a Ford Focus through half the abuse I put my Rav4 through, and see it come out just fine, running strong with over 100k miles in just around 4 years.

so i really fail to see what imports are doing that domestics arent, now the lasting image problem that you say exists from previous years, well im to young to have experienced that, as long as ive been around theyve been fine. my 1990 escort was at 250k and still ran good when we got rid of it.
Thats the thing...they aren't doing anything new at all. Imports (both European and Asian) are doing today what they have been doing for a good long time now, making good, reliable, long running, comfortable, good miliage, and fun to drive cars. And what this article, and I, am saying is that Detroit is just now starting to get there, and doing a marginally decent job...but the article, and I, fear it is too little to late.

On a side note, I just saw a picture of the 2007 Camaro concept. I now officialy support state sponsored genocide of GMs entire design department.

On a side note, I just saw a picture of the 2007 Camaro concept. I now officialy support state sponsored genocide of GMs entire design department.

amen to that.

while i can see where your coming from, i still have my own ideas, so we'll just leave it at that. as far as abuse, that escort i had... you cannot possibly have any idea of the hell it went through, from me and my brother as our first car for each of us. ramping parking blocks... 14k old oil... driving down sidewalks, going through medians at 70mph... ramming into massive snow drifts... the list goes on. but you are right on one part, domestic reliability ratings have been improving in recent years, and now domestics are as a whole rated higher in reliability that european cars.

Come on get realistic. You can go on reputation only so long before the other guys develope a good reputation too. The Focus is every bit as good as a civic or camry. There is no reliability issue that I have heard of as of yet. Wasn't it only outsold in the US by the Civic last year? There are too many unlike comparisons here. A 3 series to a Mustang? I don't think there is a mustang yet that will reach the price of the cheapest 3 series. A SRT-4 to an EVO/STI? Isn't there a 10000 dollar difference there? A cobalt in reality is completely different than a cavalier. Its got the same motor as the cavalier but that was not the weakness of the last cavalier. The Cobalts only crime is that it resembles a cavalier, but hey if a chevy dosn't look like a chevy what should it look like? American cars have been through some bad times but they are making a real effort to be quality. Who is mad about that? Everyones entitled to their own opinion but please be realistic with judgements and see the other side of the argument.

:1:

and i know the 2.0 zetec in the focus gets just as good gas milage as civics, the toyotas are another story but they make no power.

Not true. Base Focus gets 35 mpg on highway. Base Cobalt gets 34 mpg on highway. Base Civic gets 38 mpg on highway while the base Corolla gets 41 mpg highway. PEOPLE ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION TO 3-7 MPG DIFFERENCE!!!

Come on get realistic. You can go on reputation only so long before the other guys develope a good reputation too. The Focus is every bit as good as a civic or camry. There is no reliability issue that I have heard of as of yet. Wasn't it only outsold in the US by the Civic last year? There are too many unlike comparisons here. A 3 series to a Mustang? I don't think there is a mustang yet that will reach the price of the cheapest 3 series. A SRT-4 to an EVO/STI? Isn't there a 10000 dollar difference there? A cobalt in reality is completely different than a cavalier. Its got the same motor as the cavalier but that was not the weakness of the last cavalier. The Cobalts only crime is that it resembles a cavalier, but hey if a chevy dosn't look like a chevy what should it look like? American cars have been through some bad times but they are making a real effort to be quality. Who is mad about that? Everyones entitled to their own opinion but please be realistic with judgements and see the other side of the argument.


Please, tell me you are kidding with this? Honestly, I mean...not trying to flame or anything here, but are you really that stupid to miss the entire point of my last post? I understand the difference in opinions...but this is just bordering on someone covering their ears when they hear bad news that is real about their favorite car brand, and thinking if they dont hear it, it must not be real.

FYI, the concept designs floating around the internet are not the GM final designs. The actual designs wont be released for another several years. The 3800 Series 2 GM puts in a lot of their vehicles is reliable and gets pretty good gas mileage. I've seen more than my fair share with around 250,000+ miles on them and still running strong. And they've been using the FWD 3800's since 86-87. It's not about how bad one corporation is doing or who's better, it's about personal preference, what's bad to you is good to someone else. Not everyone likes Buick's but i swear by them. I'm glad you have your own opinion Cassies, cause this would be a lame site if we all didn't have our own, but GM really isn't as bad and awful as you make it out to be.

Well, I wonder how the guys at Toyota and Honda are going to react.
Actually, Toyota made some news last month because they were considering raising there prices so GM could become more competitive. No lie. The head of Toyota is wise enough to know that if GM (and the rest of the Domestics) completely fail it will mean real chaos here. No one wants to see a completely unstable US economy. It's pretty said when your competitors have to consider raising their prices to help you be competitive.

Another thing Toyota did in the last month is annouce it is buidling a huge new plant in North America. It's going into Ontario Canada. Why build there when 6 or 7 U.S. states offered huge incentives to build here?
Because they informed us that Americans are too expensive too train. The Canadians learn faster and make better employees and save money in the long term.

The three biggest problems in the US car industry have been, health care, design and profit motive.

Health Care - it's the single most expensive part of building a car in the U.S. So many frivouslous law suits have caused the price of health care to sky rocket and we all pay. When people win multi-million dollar lawsuits, where do you think that money comes from?

Design - it took US manufacture's way too long to realize that a vast majority of people will buy a realiable, fuel economy sedan (i.e. Corolla, Civic, Camry, etc ...). Although a lot of people have the desire for fast sporty cars, that is not what most people actually buy. The U.S. has been pushing their lobsters while most people actually buy the shrimp :)

Profit motive - Our country suffers from greed. A lot of other countries, like Japan, realize that if you do good work you should be rewarded with a reasonable profit. Why is that Bill Gates looks so great giving million dollar hand outs to charities? ... wouldn't we all have been better off if was enjoying a more reasonable profit on his products and allowing the over all price structure to be lower?

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.
Actually, I think we are heading into the 70s again with major fuel crisis.
With the way gas prices are going do you really think people are going to be waiting in line for a brand new V8? ... it's more likely they will be waiting in line at the pumps. Their are predictions that fuel will be $3/gallon by the end of the year.

Gas Prices= Part of the reason GM has been using the displacement on demand feature on their V8's, or at least trying to sell the idea to the consumer.

GM has been using the displacement on demand.
Toyota has been using "displacement on demand" for years ...




... it's called a turbocharger :D

Toyota has been using "displacement on demand" for years ...




... it's called a turbocharger :D


:lol:

Turbocharged 4 cyl > V8 IMO

Please, tell me you are kidding with this? Honestly, I mean...not trying to flame or anything here, but are you really that stupid to miss the entire point of my last post? I understand the difference in opinions...but this is just bordering on someone covering their ears when they hear bad news that is real about their favorite car brand, and thinking if they dont hear it, it must not be real.

Look I didn't call names. To be honest what I got out of the original post was that somebody didn't like the new charger (which I don't care for either) and decided to write an artical about how its the end for Chrysler and all other american cars. You can call me stupid all you want but it isn't going to change anything. I don't care about their marketing honestly. I don't care about japanese marketing or German marketing any more than American marketing. All I care about is what car I can get for my price that fits my needs. I have no brand or country loyalty when it comes to squandering 20+ on a brand new car. I go with the lowest bidder. Lately American cars have been getting with it and making some better strides with quality, good on them. I don't care if the japanese have been doing it for years or not. The fact is that everyone is doing it now. Should I spend another 5 grand on a civic when I could have bought a Focus for less and had an equal car in every way just because previous honda cars were good? Well if it gives you peace of mind to travel that route than thats fine. But to me if a car is good and it costs less than the competition, why would anyone complain? What would any of the american car companys have to do to make you accept them? I suspect that there is nothing because you are so hell bent on japanese or german cars that its a waste of time.

Not true. Base Focus gets 35 mpg on highway. Base Cobalt gets 34 mpg on highway. Base Civic gets 38 mpg on highway while the base Corolla gets 41 mpg highway. PEOPLE ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION TO 3-7 MPG DIFFERENCE!!!

ok... lets read what i said, you have to include the cars POWER, the base civic and base corolla are slow as balls. the focus actually has a peppy little motor in it.

[QUOTE=JekylandHyde]Actually, Toyota made some news last month because they were considering raising there prices so GM could become more competitive. No lie. The head of Toyota is wise enough to know that if GM (and the rest of the Domestics) completely fail it will mean real chaos here. No one wants to see a completely unstable US economy. It's pretty said when your competitors have to consider raising their prices to help you be competitive.

Just considering it? Well, the fact that Toyota even have to consider it is pretty...interesting. To say the least.

FYI, the concept designs floating around the internet are not the GM final designs. The actual designs wont be released for another several years. The 3800 Series 2 GM puts in a lot of their vehicles is reliable and gets pretty good gas mileage. I've seen more than my fair share with around 250,000+ miles on them and still running strong. And they've been using the FWD 3800's since 86-87. It's not about how bad one corporation is doing or who's better, it's about personal preference, what's bad to you is good to someone else. Not everyone likes Buick's but i swear by them. I'm glad you have your own opinion Cassies, cause this would be a lame site if we all didn't have our own, but GM really isn't as bad and awful as you make it out to be.

Before I go on I have to say that te 3800 is supossed to be bullet proof, and decent on gas especially for its size as a V6

BUT that archaic engine should have been put out to pasture a long time ago...the engine normally only puts out 200hp with the HO putting 220 and s/c putting out 260...GM has to supercharge the old girl to make her competitive...considering Honda has a 300hp V6 along with Nissan and supossedly Toyota all with smaller engines, the old 3800 seems a bit outclassed...but rumor has it that GM has now developed their 3.6L DOHC V6 (CTS, Rendezvous, Terezza) to make 300hp +...throw that lil baby in a G6 and malibu with their new 5 speed auto and you have a definate competitor no incentives

[QUOTE=JekylandHyde]Actually, Toyota made some news last month because they were considering raising there prices so GM could become more competitive. No lie. The head of Toyota is wise enough to know that if GM (and the rest of the Domestics) completely fail it will mean real chaos here. No one wants to see a completely unstable US economy. It's pretty said when your competitors have to consider raising their prices to help you be competitive.

Just considering it? Well, the fact that Toyota even have to consider it is pretty...interesting. To say the least.

that is somewhat interesting, i dont know if its necessary, but still interesting, and the japanese have always been much more gentleman like in buisness than americans, americans couldnt give a shit about their competitors. the japanese are very respectful buisnessmen. but at the same time that nice approach is hurting their economy. im not gonna go into specifics on that. thats kinda OT

Before I go on I have to say that te 3800 is supossed to be bullet proof, and decent on gas especially for its size as a V6

BUT that archaic engine should have been put out to pasture a long time ago...the engine normally only puts out 200hp with the HO putting 220 and s/c putting out 260...GM has to supercharge the old girl to make her competitive...considering Honda has a 300hp V6 along with Nissan and supossedly Toyota all with smaller engines, the old 3800 seems a bit outclassed...but rumor has it that GM has now developed their 3.6L DOHC V6 (CTS, Rendezvous, Terezza) to make 300hp +...throw that lil baby in a G6 and malibu with their new 5 speed auto and you have a definate competitor no incentives


245 Horsepower on the 3.6....and it's a cadillac engine...i wouldn't put one of those in my car if it had 600 HP. Until it's out longer and i see no problems with it(give it 45K miles) it's crap. Just like the Northstar. That's why the 3800 is still an optional engine on the LaCrosse.

The 3800 is one of the best engines GM has ever made, it's not going anywhere. It is very tuned down for two reasons A) They're in Buicks, how many baby boomers do you know that would want to drive a 300 HP Buick? B) As far as price goes it's easier just to mass produce hundreds of thousands of those as is than take a bunch off the line and tune them up. Throw forged internals in it, supercharge it, metal gaskets, put it in a few models and call it a day on that one, much cheaper that way, let the consumer make it fast, i can build you a 500 HP N/A 3800 if you give me the money, that engine has more potential than almost any of GM's V8's. GM used to think they had nothing to prove, they had their customer base and they could keep making cars for them, but that's changed and now they're needing to expand their horizons, the general's gonna surprise a lot of people soon, you'll see.

ok... lets read what i said, you have to include the cars POWER, the base civic and base corolla are slow as balls. the focus actually has a peppy little motor in it.


Focus weighs 2600-2800 pounds and makes between 130 and 151 horsepower.

Civic weighs 2400-2600 pounds and makes between 117 and 130 horsepower.

I fail to see your point :rolleyes:

Don't forget that the focus has just been redesigned, but the Hondas have been the same since 2001.

ok big guy, more power = less gas milage, and the zetec motor i was talking about was in the focus since 2000. so the focus is heavier and has more power... those both make for worse milage. because you have to realize that 130-151 hp isnt getting to the point where the engine has to work a lot easier than the the civic, which weighs almost the same

Focus weighs 2600-2800 pounds and makes between 130 and 151 horsepower.

Civic weighs 2400-2600 pounds and makes between 117 and 130 horsepower.

I fail to see your point :rolleyes:

Don't forget that the focus has just been redesigned, but the Hondas have been the same since 2001.

I don't see an extra 200lbs being a problem. What's that add to your quarter mile time, .1 seconds? Maybe even .2 seconds.

A little say on pricing:

So far, one major point rasied in this thread is pricing. TheStang00 brought it up regarding comparing the price of a number of cars, and saying why complain if you can get the car that can do the same for less.

Well, to acknowledge this point, we have to say that yes, Imports do cost more than domestics. Ok. We all pretty much know and accept that. Now, we have to ask why.

Well, there are two theories you can accept regarding cost.

The first is the theory that import cars just flat out cost more than domestics. Well, if you accept this argument, then you have to accept the so called "you get what you pay for" factor. So, yes, I pay more for a BMW than I do a Ford, but I get more. I get a reputation of reliability (whomever said reputation can olnly lsat so long is wrong, reputation can last a very very very long time. Look at Nixon.), a luxurious interior that is comfortable, a sporty car, brand name recognition, a free year as a memeber of the CCA, 24 hour service assitance (when I hit the deer, BMW sent out a customer service X5 to pick up me and my freind, bring us back to school, and make sure we were ok. I also got a call the next day from BMWNA asking how I was doing, making sure I and my freind were ok, and if there was anything they could do), and extended warrenty, knowledge that I'm driving one of the safer cars on the road, great miliage, and a fun car to drive. Further, accepting the "you get what you pay for" factor also means I'm paying for a car that will last longer and be just as strong as any domestic in the long run.

The second theory of the higher cost is the more accurate of the two, being the taxation theory. Becusae of import costs and taxes of our false free market economy, in order to make a noticable profit, they have to charge a bit exter per car in order to offset the outragous (charging a cent for importation is stupid, especailly since we all but demand other countries accept our goods with absolutely no tax). Now, at this point, you must ask why do we charge this importation tax? Is it becuase we want to save American jobs? Yes. Why do we need to save American jobs? Because Detroit is so dead set in their archiac ways that they aren't going to change anytime soon, and while Europe and Japan and to a lesser extent Korea are making fun to drive, yet economical, cars, Americans are still dead set in the bigger the better mind.

So, in closing, my last post in this thread is going to be this one. TheStang00, I still think you have totally, 100%, missed my argument. This has nothing to do with me bashing GM, Ford, or Chrysler. How I feel about each company is based of my own personal expieriences in dealing with each, as well as close friends expieriences. Im just not impressed whatsoever with a 6.0L V8 making 500 hp. Now, before you jump all over me with the "well, the new ///M5 is gonna have a V10 making 500hp, so what do you have to say about that", well, I say I think its stupid. BMW, unfortunately, is forced to compete in a HP war that exists only here in the US becuase on a general level, Americans are about as educated as a stick, and still think there is no replacement for displacement. I'll be amazed at what the E90 ///M3 can do, but the last year model I'll consider picking up is an E46 becuase it will still have the famous BMW I6.

Until Detroit can start puting out motors that are naturaly aspirated, half the displacment of what they currently are, and still the same amout, or better, of HP, I will not be impressed. I'm outy. Peace.

Until Detroit can start puting out motors that are naturaly aspirated, half the displacment of what they currently are, and still the same amout, or better, of HP, I will not be impressed. I'm outy. Peace.


I'm not worried about the price ideas in your post. Except i'll just say this for now, with GM's employee pricing program they have, you can get a fully optioned 50K dollar Yukon Denali for 38K right now.


This though.... GM will continue to do what they're doing because it works. There's a small faction of people including yourself that think this way, and GM is thinking the same thing i am... you dont like it? To bad. There's nothing wrong with GM's engines, i believe it was a GM rep that was telling me that they have over 30 models that get 30 mpg or better, that includes over seas markets. GM makes V8's because that's what they're good at, that's what they do, it's what they've always done. Why should they change what they're good at, did you miss my post explaining that almost all GM engines are tuned down from the factory? Do you honestly think that they couldn't make a 700HP N/A V8 instead of 500? They can, but they dont have to. And a small contingent of BMW owners or whoever else isn't going to change their minds. You can have your BMW, GM doesn't need your business.

I've got three words for this discussion:


skeet skeet skeettt!

245 Horsepower on the 3.6....and it's a cadillac engine...i wouldn't put one of those in my car if it had 600 HP. Until it's out longer and i see no problems with it(give it 45K miles) it's crap. Just like the Northstar. That's why the 3800 is still an optional engine on the LaCrosse.

The 3800 is one of the best engines GM has ever made, it's not going anywhere. It is very tuned down for two reasons A) They're in Buicks, how many baby boomers do you know that would want to drive a 300 HP Buick? B) As far as price goes it's easier just to mass produce hundreds of thousands of those as is than take a bunch off the line and tune them up. Throw forged internals in it, supercharge it, metal gaskets, put it in a few models and call it a day on that one, much cheaper that way, let the consumer make it fast, i can build you a 500 HP N/A 3800 if you give me the money, that engine has more potential than almost any of GM's V8's. GM used to think they had nothing to prove, they had their customer base and they could keep making cars for them, but that's changed and now they're needing to expand their horizons, the general's gonna surprise a lot of people soon, you'll see.

hahahaha ill write you a cheque...a blank cheque :icon16:

The 3.6L V6 is used in Cadillacs but its the best V6 GM has when your looking at pure numbers... Wards auto does reviews of car engines and their only problem with the 3.6L is that its not in all GM vehicles...

in a world of emerging horsepower wars in V6 and V8 realms 185hp 3.4L V6s and 200hp NA 3.8L V6's dont compare to 3.5L 298hp, 3.5L 300hp and 3.5L 300+hp V6's seen outide North America...and if they could put more hp NA in their 3.8L why did they have to supercharge it? and why would they have to put V8's in their Malibus and Impalas just so the cars can be slower than my hunk of junk 2.0L RSX?

all im saying is that the 3.6L has gotten good reviews and its gonna make 300+hp soon...and the biggest problem with it is...its got more HP than their V8's and the looks odd...

People always complain about the tariffs on japanese cars, why? They get to build their cars over here, we don't get to build american cars in japan. If we did like them and prevented them from being built here but removed the taxes I would guess that the price would be about the same because they would all have to be shipped from across the pacific. As for the 3800 motor, maybe its just cheaper for them to supercharge it and just as effective as making a whole new motor just so they can be NA. Why is it a problem that the GM is supercharged? Who here wants a N/A Evo? And why have I heard people suggest that a 350Z is slow and it should be available with TT as an option? Please stop the bias, everyone goes Forced Induction. Its cheaper and you don't have to have such a high strung engine if its forced induction.

well cassiesman, i dont think ive missed your point, i just dont agree with it all that much. and i honestly dont think most people care about having smaller displacement engines that are wound up to make as much hp as a engine twice the size. i know id rather have a larger engine because usually that leaves more room for improvement on the engine, or in other words modding. my car has a 3.8l v6 it only has 190hp, but it has 220ft-lbs of torque, but i can tell you right now that id rather have that engine than a 4cyl making the same hp. cause 1 it wouldnt have the same torque capabilities, and two it wouldnt have as much potential. but if it makes you happy, ford is going to put a 3.5l v6 making around 250hp in the new mustangs, either this coming model year or next. and the v8, well thats already pretty small. 281 cubes isnt very much for a v8. and you can say well the 350z makes just as much hp with a v6, but look at the torque numbers, not even close.

doesnt the 350z make 280 something hp?

Bias? ur kidding me right? Im not a fan of an out of date engine and im biased? Im not saying that supercharging the 3.8L is wrong, im just saying that its not competitive by the numbers against the new generation V6's and GM has a better product (again by the numbers) available

I dont trust the numbers, it's still a Cadillac engine and until i see them with over 40,000 miles and still running strong i put it up there the same as the northstar.