Tran. for 3.8 in GA

Yea, hey guys. You remember when i said that my GA will have a 3.8 in sooner or later. well, i know a guy who has one that im might consider buying and if i do then i will hold back on new rims for my car but i know that its sorta big to put in one but dont you need a different trany in there to make it fit?...well, what kind of trany will i need to make it work. i know that i will have to get different wire harnes, mounts, and other things. but what kind of trany will i need?...thanks guys.

The 3.8's in the last few generations of Grand Prix's mate with the 65 transmission. Our is the 45 (it's like 45te, or something like that, I don't remember). But yeh, I'm not sure if the 3.8 would mate up ok with our 45 transmission - it's possible. But if not, then you'll need a 65.

aight, i will look into it a little more, thanks ride.

whats weird is i know that the 3.1 and the 3.4 are almost the same motor (as in size and and stuff) and all they did is tweeked a bit with it for the grand ams now, and i also know that the 3.3L for the 92 and 93 grand ams are the almost the same as the 3.8L buit again they tweeked it a bit. i know that the 3.3L is hardly any more narrow than the 3.8 and they fit in the grand am. its stupid that the 3.8 wont fit it. and i know that thoes 3.3 were power. we had in our buick century we had about 4 or 5 years ago. about 0-30 they were sorta dogish but they rawp up so high in RPMs and they are like a rocket when you get them goin. i just dont like the looks of the motor that much and they are sorta old. but thanks again ride.

Transmissions in Post 96 Grand am's is the 4t60e.... the 3800 came with that same Trans from 92 till the 4T65E replaced it.

So bottom line.... If your grand am is after 96 then your existing trans will bolt up fine (although they won't last if its a SC3800).... If supercharging, then go with the 4T65E, but you'll have to have custom CVshafts made up because the GP's are wider. I have no idea if the post 99 GA's have the 4t65E or not(but I think so)... but they are still wider than the 96-98 GA's.

you should be just perfect if your GA is 99+(and has the 4T65E).... Make sure you get the computer and wireing harness too.... You'll need them.

99+ have the 4t45e

ok..um, my GA is a 95. I seriously thought that the 3300 had the same as the 3800. but i think it was for the serise 1 motors. im thinkin about gettin a serise two for my 95 grand am to replace my 3.1L. is it still too big with the 4t60e?..or what?...haha, im gettin lost now cause of my year.

Ok... Looked up some stats on the 95. It has the 4T60E trans... so that's a plus.

I have no Idea as to the relation between the 33 & 3800 engines... other than they look allike.


In all honesty.. this swap is possible (afterall anything is with enough time, and money...lol). But expect it to be VERY involved... not going to be just a drop and go.

If you want easy(er), try a 3400.

I don't think a "step by step" exists for this swap, basically you're going to need the engine, harness, ECU, and probably other misc. parts plus a whole buttload of time to do it, Plus good welding and fabrication skills.

My .02.... have a donor car there, so you're sure you have everything necessary to do it. Check some junk yards for GA's that have the 3300 and take pictures and measurments to have an idea of what has to be relocated, and where the engine is going to sit(maybe grab some parts off of it too).

Good Luck... I was reaserching this for my 96 GA, but fount it to be too much trouble/cost. I'd rather buy a nice SC Regal... probably similar cost and less hassle..lol.

haha, ture, very true. yes, thoes 3300 are the same as the 3800, well, they did some tweeking to the 3300 to make what the 3800 is. i know that the 3300 is a little bigger but its not as big as the 3800 because they only made every little part bigger from the 3.3 to the 3.8L. i looked on the net and tons and tons of research. yes, people say that it does take time and a little more $ than a normal and easier swap. but i think i know how to get it all in there.
I know that i was asken the question but now i have the answer but this will save time for people that also have this question later.
well, most people that have done thins swap have not used the 4t60e trany but the 4t65-HD trany becuase of the lighter weight of the GA. You will have to make custom motor mounts or have some made for you. Different wiring harness and a gen. 2 or 3 factory 3800 Supercharged fuel pump (cause i want the S/C. you can, if want, keep the same gas lines but you will need to change the fuel pump. when you take out the 3100 you will be using thoes injectors with the motor, and the ECU which is mated for thoes injectors. also, using the 4t65-HD trany is better cause the PCM is ready to go for that transmition. and again, becuase the GA is lighter it is almost recammended to put in a LSD into the differential, or have rebuilding it later on.
I did alot of research on this and now im almost ready, now all I have to do now is do it...but it will be a while but i can get prepared in the mean time...taking classes next year for my sophmore year in mechanics. Got the knowledge on it so im ready...lol
and thanks for helpping me before i looked it up, just to add more to my knowledge im building (hahah, building). thanks

forgot to add, sophmore in high school, haha, i know, but i love workin on motors. (on my friends cars cause they pay me and thats all i can do cause i cant work on mine untill i leave) only 2 more years - post secondary in tech school.

If the 3300 is so close, That'll help alot with placement and mount location. I don't think getting it in there is the problem, so much as the wireing is.


You're relying alot on the capabilities of the much older ECU to be able to run the newer engine... don't forget that the 3800 has different sensors, plugs, and some extra wires from those sensors(thanks to design changes as the years pass) that your 3.1 doesn't have... Espicially since you're planning on using a SC engine. Double check the stock injectors with the stock SC3800 injectors.. I don't think the 3.1's will be able to keep up with a SC3800. ECU can use any injector you put in.. just reprogram it appropriatly. Might be able to get away easier if you go with a same year SC3800... better chance of the sensors being the same.

I'd get a Haynes or Chilton manuel for each vehicle... and compare the wireing for each computer (wireing diagrams are in the back of the Haynes... don't know about the Chiltons), I bet you'll find alot if differences. If anything, that'll atleast tell you what old wire to splice into which newer sensor, as none of your plugs are going to fit (well, maybe a few...lol).

I have to totally agree on the Trans choice.... they switched to the 4t65e for a good reason.

Sophmore eh.... Cool that you're tackling a project like this.... I tended to stick with RWD v8 cars in my High School days... But I allways like the allure of something "different". Gotta be Unique.

Good Luck... If you can, try to do a "step by step" and post it... maybe help others wanting to do it to, as I haven't found a decent guide on it yet.

After reading all of this, i have came to a conclusion!!! Do not put a 3.8L engine in a Grand AM!!! Remember, its only a grand am, not a corvett. You are not a fast and furious, can can die. The engine weights to much for the car. you can create stress fractures on the frame. Also with a bigger engine, the car will handle much different then stock. There will have to be a ton of upgrades JUST to handle the engine. There is no reason to put a 3.8L in there. POINTLESS! The only reason i can come to; to put this engine in the car, you would have to be street racing! I seen people, mostly kids, street racing and they come into the ER DEAD! A few months ago there was a kid that was street racing and was killed when he rolled his car. DOA! Dead on arrivel! I guess when you are young, you dont think you could die, will let me tell you, YOU CAN! All in all, its a wast og Money and time, and your life. DON'T DO IT!!!!

Well, its called a project car. i dont plan on keeping it through college or anything. i will probly get a grand prix right away to drive around till i have enough money in my wallet for the upgrades to the car. and i wont street race....well, idk, but probly not, i was going to but i dicided it wasnt a good thing. im taking it to a drag strip and race....and yes, for money. i will need the extra money for the college and for the future gto when i get out. it will be good to put the 3.8 in it, then i will have to put other upgrades in it later.

Well, its called a project car. i dont plan on keeping it through college or anything. i will probly get a grand prix right away to drive around till i have enough money in my wallet for the upgrades to the car. and i wont street race....well, idk, but probly not, i was going to but i dicided it wasnt a good thing. im taking it to a drag strip and race....and yes, for money. i will need the extra money for the college and for the future gto when i get out. it will be good to put the 3.8 in it, then i will have to put other upgrades in it later.


L67 into a Grand Am??? Thats wishful thinking. How do plan on controlling all that torque oversteer, bouncing, chassis flex even if you manage to fabricate axles that may work or even if you get it to fit in the engine compartment-substructure. First run down the dragstrip and you'll probably run into the staging lights.

Here's some good advice. The best way to get to and through college is keep your grades high in high school and earn a few scholarships, get a job, and not waste any time on a "pie in the sky" car project. Just my 2 cents. :2cents:


http://www.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/gtp.jpg
Thrasher CAI, DHP v1.0 ECU, Granatelli CAI Tuneable MAF,
3.4 SC pulley, Hi-Flow CAT, u-bend delete, 180 TS,
TB spacer, MSD 8.5mm wires, AC Delco 41-932 spark plugs,
Goodyear Gatorback Serp. & SC Belt
ET: 14.3 @ 96 mph

L67 into a Grand Am??? Thats wishful thinking. How do plan on controlling all that torque oversteer, bouncing, chassis flex even if you manage to fabricate axles that may work or even if you get it to fit in the engine compartment-substructure. First run down the dragstrip and you'll probably run into the staging lights.

Here's some good advice. The best way to get to and through college is keep your grades high in high school and earn a few scholarships, get a job, and not waste any time on a "pie in the sky" car project. Just my 2 cents. :2cents:
WTF are you talking about... this is not anything new... ITS BEEN DONE BEFORE. Torque steer will not be any worse than a GP... in fact it'll be alittle better since the CV shafts will not be as long (and a LSD would fix that as well). Traction will be a problem.... Chassis flex can be fixed... if it's a problem. The GP doesn't have any extra reinforcement over the GA.... Engine Cradel is similar to the GP.. Same grade steel, same # of mounting points in similar locations, same grade bolts.

As long as he does the engine mounts correctly, then it should handle like a Light GP. Granted the Center of gravity will move forward due to the extra weight of the 3800, but he can put new springs on his struts to help offset that... and worse case, install ballast in the trunk. New springs will also help the Handling issue... as well as a strut tower brace if needed.

If this swap has been done in a Gen 3 cavalier (smaller engine compartment than a GA even) then its only a matter of skill and persistance.


But I do agree with your college advise... this is not a project I'd take on in High school, with college pending.

WTF are you talking about... this is not anything new... ITS BEEN DONE BEFORE. Torque steer will not be any worse than a GP... in fact it'll be alittle better since the CV shafts will not be as long (and a LSD would fix that as well). Traction will be a problem.... Chassis flex can be fixed... if it's a problem. The GP doesn't have any extra reinforcement over the GA.... Engine Cradel is similar to the GP.. Same grade steel, same # of mounting points in similar locations, same grade bolts.

As long as he does the engine mounts correctly, then it should handle like a Light GP. Granted the Center of gravity will move forward due to the extra weight of the 3800, but he can put new springs on his struts to help offset that... and worse case, install ballast in the trunk. New springs will also help the Handling issue... as well as a strut tower brace if needed.

If this swap has been done in a Gen 3 cavalier (smaller engine compartment than a GA even) then its only a matter of skill and persistance.

But I do agree with your college advise... this is not a project I'd take on in High school, with college pending.


"I'd rather buy a nice SC Regal... probably similar cost and less" hassle..lol.

You answered his question in an earlier thread....see above quote.

The question is what are you talking about??? Have you personally ever done this type of modification/project and what experience do you have with GM "W" & "N" bodies and automotive structural engineering?? I see you have a lot of stipulations. Talk is cheap. Anyone can throw in a 2 cents opinion. In the end what is this going to cost the guy? Surely it won't pay for his education.

At least we agree on the education aspects and lets just keep it at that.
BTDT.


http://www.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/gtp.jpg
Thrasher CAI, DHP v1.0 ECU, Granatelli CAI Tuneable MAF,
3.4 SC pulley, Hi-Flow CAT, u-bend delete, 180 TS,
TB spacer, MSD 8.5mm wires, AC Delco 41-932 spark plugs,
Goodyear Gatorback Serp. & SC Belt
ET: 14.3 @ 96 mph

Madcat455-the hell are you talking about????bnaylor3400 knows what he is talking about. He has been working on cars for a long time.Torque steer will not be any worse than a GP??? How did you arrive at that answer, we are talking about 2 different cars here. different weight factors!! I like what you said: "skill and persistance". SO... if i want to put a 350 in my alero, i can do it if i have skill and persistance???I'll be damned if i try that one no matter how much skill and persistance i have.. Now once againe, it will not FIT and will not work!!!!!!!I I back up bnaylor3400 all the way... Madcat455-I think you forgot your common sience at the door, but i think somebody has made off with it!

ok guys, dont kill each other. all of you are correct on these. yes, it has been done many times and i just talked to someone who has done it. you will need some extra support to it. it isnt alot tho. its not like im racing it 24/7 at a track. just on a drag and all i need is better suports, springs, and tougher streering cont. it will take some extra money after i put it in but i wont be any more than what it takes to put it in, in the first place. trust me, anything can be acomplished, with some time and a few $ in the back pocket. it wont take much extra tho. anyways, im doing it and thats basically it.

Madcat455-the hell are you talking about????bnaylor3400 knows what he is talking about. He has been working on cars for a long time.Torque steer will not be any worse than a GP??? How did you arrive at that answer, we are talking about 2 different cars here. different weight factors!! I like what you said: "skill and persistance". SO... if i want to put a 350 in my alero, i can do it if i have skill and persistance???I'll be damned if i try that one no matter how much skill and persistance i have.. Now once againe, it will not FIT and will not work!!!!!!!I I back up bnaylor3400 all the way... Madcat455-I think you forgot your common sience at the door, but i think somebody has made off with it!

Hey, what's up Vamc. Thanks for the support but I already know the answer as to whether a Series I or II 3800 will fit into a '95 and up Grand Am without major mods (cutting, chopping & welding). It sure as hell won't fit into a stock engine compartment of a '95 or '99 Grand Am or Alero for that matter. I ran measurements at various chassis and engine mounting points on a '95 Grand Am and '99 Grand Am against a '97 GTP and '01 Regal GS with a Series II SC engine with 4T65E-HD tranny. Checked engine and tranny width side to side and front to back. If you were to super impose a 3800 engine and check installation, the exhaust manifold of the 3800 would be at the point where the radiator mounts thus the front end would have to be extended several inches. I don't think the engine will run too good without adequate cooling especially with a supercharger. On side to side engine, the pulleys would come down on or rub on the inner fender structure. The oil filter on the left hand side on the engine would snap off unless the inner support is cut away. The drive axles/CV joints would also be at an extreme angle.
The transmission side cover of the 4T65E tranny would rest on the driver's side engine cradle/inner fender sub-structure indicating having to cut away metal again. After all that metal is removed there will not be any crash protection and definitely chassis flex. There isn't too much metal left to re-inforce.

Thats only the tip of the iceberg. The wiring for the ECU/PCM and all of its sensors would be a nightmare.

The 3800 SC engine torques a bunch (280 ft-lbs stock) when you drop the hammer and the next question is how do get the engine to stay down on the motor mounts. The 3800 has two hefty forward motor mounts for that purpose which mount to the radiator mount/frame of the front end. This comes down beyond where the radiator mounts in a '95 or '99 Grand Am. Again front end must be extended to support the front engine mounts.

BTW - Anything can be done if you have the time, resources, patience and money$$$$ but at what cost and what reason?? Just what are you going to beat at the dragstrip. For example there is a guy that put a Chevy LT1 V8 engine into a late model Grand Prix and converted the thing to rear wheel drive but it cost him $18,000. The engine sits where the rear seat is located. He tried selling it on Ebay for over $20K and no one ever bid on it.

Well time to move on, later, sh#t's too deep in this forum. Just my 2 cents. :2cents:


http://www.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/gtp.jpg
Thrasher CAI, DHP v1.0 ECU, Granatelli CAI Tuneable MAF,
3.4 SC pulley, Hi-Flow CAT, u-bend delete, 180 TS,
TB spacer, MSD 8.5mm wires, AC Delco 41-932 spark plugs,
Goodyear Gatorback Serp. & SC Belt
ET: 14.3 @ 96 mph

You guys are getting me all wrong here... I never said it'd be worth it. The PIA and cost vs Value factor is just insane. But people will do what they want just to be different.

If it's not possible, then how has it been done???? Granted.. No one here has ever said that it would be easy/worth it/pratical... just possible. He never said that he wanted "easy".

When I was considering this swap for my 96, I came to the same conclusion as you... hell, I don't even think a 3400 swap is worth it in a old POS car like this.

At least he's only working with a old GA... that way, when he gets half way through... and starts to see that he's bitten off more than he's willing to chew, it won't be a big loss junking another old GA...lol.

I'm only answering his questions, because he asked them... Not giving my approval, or opinion as to weather or not he SHOULD do it... as he didn't ask for that.

Torque steer= (as explained to me... my info could be wrong).... Occurs because of the differing lengths of the opposing L & R shafts... as each shaft has a certain amout of "twist" (every shaft does), the longer shaft has more twist naturally and therfore is slower to accelerate than the shorter shaft... since then the shorter shaft is the first to actually drive the tire, the car naturally pushes in the opposite direction of that tire... which is why the car pushes right.. since the left shaft is the shorter one.

there will still be the differing lengths, so you cannot get rid of it. But, if the difference in lengths of the custom setup is less than a stock GP... that would equal less Torque steer. This will still be a traction nightmare though...

If I'm wrong, then so be it... It wouldn't be the first time....lol.

I still think he's crazy for doing it... in the end it'd be cheaper, easier, better just to buy a car that came with one. But again... that's not the question here.

Since we're interjecting our "Opinions" here... Me, I'd just go out and buy an older RWD car... drop a Big block in it and dust all the SC 3800's out there... Oh wait... I already did that...lol. For all the time, effort, cost, he's going to put into this thing... I could've restored my 72 Gran Sport.


PS.. I wan't insulting anybody... or trying to say that you didn't know what you were talking about... It just strikes me as being alittle odd when you said it can't be done... yet it has been. Cost or Reason were never mentioned as being a factor.


There.. Now he has .04 to work with.... :p

Madcat455,

Everything's cool. Everyones' opinion and experiences are valued on the forum. We all gave him pro and con and thats all that matters. Opinions will differ but no one should lose any sleep over it. In the end its his decision, car, time and money.


http://www.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/gtp.jpg
Thrasher CAI, DHP v1.0 ECU, Granatelli CAI Tuneable MAF,
3.4 SC pulley, Hi-Flow CAT, u-bend delete, 180 TS,
TB spacer, MSD 8.5mm wires, AC Delco 41-932 spark plugs,
Goodyear Gatorback Serp. & SC Belt
ET: 14.3 @ 96 mph

well....i will just have to see now, sounds like it will take more money than just going out and buying a car with a 3800 S/C in it. i think im just going to keep that extra money to put in the GTO when i get it in a few years....haha, got more pay checks and im getting closer. thanks guys for your opinions.