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K&N Intake kits


czm400r
03-05-2005, 08:17 AM
There was a forum on the K&N type intake set-ups. I have a 99' Blazer 4.3. Is this a product that you can install without any adjustments to fuel/air mixture. Forgive me I work on MX bikes and differances in intake affect fuel /air mixtures that we correct with jetting. Will this product affect the emmisions test the state requires.

mrfirebird
03-05-2005, 10:56 AM
not able to do adjustments all are controlled by the computer. just unhook the battery wait 5 minutes and hook it back it self learns the air mixture. most are emission friendly. should say on box.

BlazerLT
03-05-2005, 12:35 PM
There was a forum on the K&N type intake set-ups. I have a 99' Blazer 4.3. Is this a product that you can install without any adjustments to fuel/air mixture. Forgive me I work on MX bikes and differances in intake affect fuel /air mixtures that we correct with jetting. Will this product affect the emmisions test the state requires.

The ebay setups are very cheap and would serve you well.

All they do is replace the pipe work and the filter with high flow components.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7959003718&category=38634

People love that one and it will perform just like the more expensive name branded models that cost US$200 or more.

JoshBarber
03-05-2005, 07:04 PM
CZM400R-
Once again BlazerLT has failed to mention the important fact/answer to your last question, why that is, I'm not sure.
The K&N kits, which are much more expensive then the Ebay kits, are legal in all 50 states. The cheaper ones on Ebay however, are NOT. Including the one on the link he provided.
Fact is, if paying the $50 as opposed to $200 is worthe it to remove the kit and reinstall the stock airbox whenever you have inspections, then go for it.
I do believe the K&N's are better made. Do a search for a recent thread on "intake"

BlazerLT
03-05-2005, 08:43 PM
They can't say they are 50 state emmision legal because they haven't undergone testing.

The only thing it is replacing is the friggin filter and the piping.

How the hell does that make a difference. The guys that make their own intakes don't rip them off when they do emmisions. The company will not claim it is legal because then they would be held liable.

Face it, you are backing a marketing ploy by K&N, you don't even own an intake.

How the hell are you know a professional in something that isn't even attached to your truck.

I have recommeded setups like this before, actually, the exact same one and the person has gone through emmisions and never had a problem.

All it does is replace the piping and the filter, how the hell does that mess with the emmisions.

That's right, it doesn't.

You have joined these forums what, two months ago, and now you are questioning my advice?

Give me a break!

chcknugget
03-05-2005, 09:16 PM
I got a cheap ebay intake for $21 ($13+$7.99 shipping) and it passed strict NYS inspections this winter.

If it passes in NY I think you have nothing to worry about.

BlazerLT
03-05-2005, 09:21 PM
I got a cheap ebay intake for $21 ($13+$7.99 shipping) and it passed strict NYS inspections this winter.

If it passes in NY I think you have nothing to worry about.

Exactly, my point is proven.

JoshBarber
03-06-2005, 09:27 PM
could be....
note though that the reason CARB is the standards due to the fact that California has the highest standards for emissions

chcknugget
03-06-2005, 09:31 PM
could be....
note though that the reason CARB is the standards due to the fact that California has the highest standards for emissions

What are you getting at?

JoshBarber
03-06-2005, 10:09 PM
just that I didnt know what state he lived in, and unless it passes emissions standards in CA, it might fail in his state.

Absolut Talent
03-06-2005, 11:40 PM
Forgive my ignorance...but arent your emmissions the left over/wastes from the fuel being burnt during your combustion cycle?

And the testing is making sure you arent releasing extra harmful fuel wastes into the air. So how would releasing extra air that is brought in through your intake cause an emmissions test to fail? I fail to see that it can cause all your doing is releasing, if any, extra air that is readily availible outside of your car/truck.


Now modifying your exahst might cause you to fail your testing as that can change what is released that is bad.

BlazerLT
03-07-2005, 02:05 PM
Forgive my ignorance...but arent your emmissions the left over/wastes from the fuel being burnt during your combustion cycle?

And the testing is making sure you arent releasing extra harmful fuel wastes into the air. So how would releasing extra air that is brought in through your intake cause an emmissions test to fail? I fail to see that it can cause all your doing is releasing, if any, extra air that is readily availible outside of your car/truck.


Now modifying your exahst might cause you to fail your testing as that can change what is released that is bad.

Yes, this is my point.

An intake will NOT have ou failing emmisions.

Removing the cat wil have you fail, but replacing your muffler will not.

JoshBarber
03-07-2005, 03:19 PM
it's just coincidence that some are approved by CARB for Emissions tests, and some are stated from the company to NOT be for street use "track and offroad only"

BlazerLT
03-07-2005, 05:23 PM
They will test and perform fine.

As stated earlier, people are being tested with them installed and having no problems.

JoshBarber
03-22-2005, 07:20 AM
something else to consider is this sellers feedback. several negative feedback's on their "aftermarket" product (those that are negative seem extemely angry), and several that have positive feedback still complain of missing parts, or not being able to mate the intake up under the hood. You get what you pay for.

BlazerLT
03-22-2005, 07:34 AM
Enough Josh, you persistent negative badgering on this topic is getting tiresome seeing you are just talking about an everyday occurence on ebay.

I purchased a VCR from a guy on ebay and it was missing a power cord.

So does that mean every VCR by that manufacturer sold on ebay will be crap?

I don't think so.

How about you ACTUALLY BUY a cold air intake for your truck and install it and then you can comment on how good a product is.

Until then, your weak and baseless opinion is counteracted by 1000s of people that own the intake and are perfectly happy.

JoshBarber
03-22-2005, 10:19 AM
get a life man. do you get paid to "patrol" this website?

BlazerLT
03-22-2005, 10:44 AM
get a life man. do you get paid to "patrol" this website?

Nope, but I am willing to discredit people that knew nothing about their truck three months ago and now post like they are some kind of professional in air intakes and 4.3L performance.

Do you understand how ridulous it is for you to say what cold air intakes are better than the others when you don't even own one yourself?:lol2:

JoshBarber
03-22-2005, 02:16 PM
read my other message dope. and once again: GET A LIFE. You spend 99% of your time on this website being a dick. You don't even get PAID to be an Admin on here! That IS worth laughing over.

"I've had K&N intake kits with almost every vehicle I've owned. I've seen what the Ebay/AutoZone cheapo's look like. I've read complaints about them over and over. I've gotten specific information FROM the companies selling them that advocates my quams with them, whether it be inadequate fits, failures to be street legal, flimsey parts, complaints about poor service, filters falling apart etc......Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when over and over again I've given you LEGIT reasons as to WHY it's not wise to purchase the cheap ones off Ebay....and everytime you run your mouth about it. You ARE wrong. You say you admit when you are......prove it. You ALREADY look like an idiot for contesting it over and over. You're like some thick headed kid that sits there shaking his head no when somebody keeps showing them why they're wrong."

BlazerLT
03-22-2005, 02:55 PM
read my other message dope. and once again: GET A LIFE. You spend 99% of your time on this website being a dick. You don't even get PAID to be an Admin on here! That IS worth laughing over.

"I've had K&N intake kits with almost every vehicle I've owned. I've seen what the Ebay/AutoZone cheapo's look like. I've read complaints about them over and over. I've gotten specific information FROM the companies selling them that advocates my quams with them, whether it be inadequate fits, failures to be street legal, flimsey parts, complaints about poor service, filters falling apart etc......Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when over and over again I've given you LEGIT reasons as to WHY it's not wise to purchase the cheap ones off Ebay....and everytime you run your mouth about it. You ARE wrong. You say you admit when you are......prove it. You ALREADY look like an idiot for contesting it over and over. You're like some thick headed kid that sits there shaking his head no when somebody keeps showing them why they're wrong."

Due to your lack of civility, insults and immaturity, you have definitely earned a one month ban from these forums.

See you in a month's time.

k5dan
03-22-2005, 05:53 PM
In missouri your test depends on if they have to fail you to meet your quota, its crap. I can fail miserably at one station and go to the next and pass flying colors. emission tests are useless. Hear that "scientists" have done "reserch" to find that diesel engines are very harmful to the air? Is it a coincidence that they also just come up with a emissions test for diesel engines? Friggin epa, sorry had to rant a little. Pardon my bad spelling.

BlazerLT
03-22-2005, 08:49 PM
In missouri your test depends on if they have to fail you to meet your quota, its crap. I can fail miserably at one station and go to the next and pass flying colors. emission tests are useless. Hear that "scientists" have done "reserch" to find that diesel engines are very harmful to the air? Is it a coincidence that they also just come up with a emissions test for diesel engines? Friggin epa, sorry had to rant a little. Pardon my bad spelling.

Let it out Brotha! :D

chcknugget
03-22-2005, 09:32 PM
Yeah, I've been researching a little bit on the EGR. Apparently it has no performance value and is just a plot by the EPA to numb our engines down. I'm no expert at all, but it sounds like it sorta sucks. Apparently, 2003 and 2004 blazers don't have EGR's but have performance tuning to reduce some gases. I wish I could get some of that.

BlazerLT
03-23-2005, 09:58 AM
Yeah, I've been researching a little bit on the EGR. Apparently it has no performance value and is just a plot by the EPA to numb our engines down. I'm no expert at all, but it sounds like it sorta sucks. Apparently, 2003 and 2004 blazers don't have EGR's but have performance tuning to reduce some gases. I wish I could get some of that.

No, the EGR can actually help performance by lowering combustion temperatures which reduces computer timing retardation which is caused when the combustion temperatures get too high and detonation and pinging occurs.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h61.pdf

k5dan
03-23-2005, 05:53 PM
yes, i agree. some of the emissions equipment is benifical like helping with fuel economy but as stated some of them just cause us problems *cough catalytic converter *cough. also it is my understanding for the converter to work "as intended" it would have to reach tempatures near 700 degrees :screwy:

blazes9395
03-23-2005, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=BlazerLT]No, the EGR can actually help performance by lowering combustion temperatures which reduces computer timing retardation which is caused when the combustion temperatures get too high and detonation and pinging occurs.
[QUOTE]

EGR flow causes a weaker combustion, limiting your performance. It does help for emissions, at the price of performance. Thats why there are there EGR mods - even our trucks. High performance engines and engine builders try to avoid the EGR almost at all costs. Even intakes can be purchased with a EGR block, or no EGR port at all.

BlazerLT
03-23-2005, 08:49 PM
EGR flow causes a weaker combustion, limiting your performance. It does help for emissions, at the price of performance. Thats why there are there EGR mods - even our trucks. High performance engines and engine builders try to avoid the EGR almost at all costs. Even intakes can be purchased with a EGR block, or no EGR port at all.

Again, no, EGR does not hinder performance.

A properly running EGR system only runs when you are at cruising rpms and shuts off when you floor it and when the engine is at low idle.

Without the EGR system functioning on a vehicle DESIGNED to have it, your engine will actually retard the timing to counteract the pinging caused by the raised combustion temperatures.

blazes9395
03-23-2005, 08:54 PM
So then why are there EGR mods...even for these trucks,or aftermarket intakes for older/high performance cars that do not have an EGR port located in it? If it was such a performance improver, why are they taken out, working or not working?

chcknugget
03-23-2005, 08:57 PM
I've heard that newer blazers do not have egrs. Can anyone with a 2003 or 2004 blazer verify this?

BlazerLT
03-23-2005, 09:32 PM
So then why are there EGR mods...even for these trucks,or aftermarket intakes for older/high performance cars that do not have an EGR port located in it? If it was such a performance improver, why are they taken out, working or not working?

Please remember I was talking about an engine DESIGNED to have EGR flow.

You can't compare a normal engine with a race engine.

Read and learn:

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov97/gas.htm

blazes9395
03-23-2005, 09:50 PM
There have been many engines designed to use EGR, now have been modified and don't run EGR. Ask a local engine shop or go to your local track and ask around. There are many people who would be happy to explain it to you. This is not a new discovery, it has been around for a long time. "Normal" engine or not, the same principals of internal combustion are there. AS for our trucks, at WOT the EGR is closed, yes, but I don't operate either of my trucks at WOT throttle, so that doesn't benefit me at all at idel, well I don't expect much from my trucks at idle, just long its a smooth idle. I expect improvements at low to mid range throttle - usually where I aways operate the engine and usually where always the EGR is commanded. The restrictor I use on both of them helps reduce EGR flow at low to mid range throttle. If you don't agree thats fine, but your logic in EGR flow for better performance is flawed.

BlazerLT
03-23-2005, 10:11 PM
There have been many engines designed to use EGR, now have been modified and don't run EGR. Ask a local engine shop or go to your local track and ask around. There are many people who would be happy to explain it to you. This is not a new discovery, it has been around for a long time. "Normal" engine or not, the same principals of internal combustion are there. AS for our trucks, at WOT the EGR is closed, yes, but I don't operate either of my trucks at WOT throttle, so that doesn't benefit me at all at idel, well I don't expect much from my trucks at idle, just long its a smooth idle. I expect improvements at low to mid range throttle - usually where I aways operate the engine and usually where always the EGR is commanded. The restrictor I use on both of them helps reduce EGR flow at low to mid range throttle. If you don't agree thats fine, but your logic in EGR flow for better performance is flawed.

No it is not flawed.

EGR is not used at idle or at WOT and the EGR flow is minimal when accelerating.

Incresed combustion temperatures will cause detonation which will have the computer retard the timing which will actually hinder performance and economy.

Read the last link I gave you and learn something.

blazes9395
03-23-2005, 10:49 PM
No it is not flawed.

EGR is not used at idle or at WOT and the EGR flow is minimal when accelerating.

Incresed combustion temperatures will cause detonation which will have the computer retard the timing which will actually hinder performance and economy.

Read the last link I gave you and learn something.

1) Right thats what I said NOT used at WOT and Idle. Maybe read it
again, its up to you.....

2) EGR is NOT the only source of incresed temperatures in an engine,
many factors play into combustion temperatures.

3) I have a VERY GOOD understanding of the theory of operation of the
EGR system, I am taking my thoughts a step further than just the
theory of operation, if you noticed. What I am trying to do is explain
that there are ways to improve that system for, in our case, better performance. I
can likewise give you links to "read and learn" about modifying or
removing the operation of the system for increased or improved
performance......

I am not here to argue, be-little anyone or "be one up". I come here to provide assistance whenever I can, and recieve assistance whenever I need it. I am always open to a good discussion about whatever, I don't insult though. If you are going to give information, make sure you have a full understanding of the subject, and don't belittle others, like "read and learn something". I added to the subject, if you don't agree thats fine, I explained myself, still alright, but don't tell me "read and learn".......

chcknugget
03-23-2005, 10:51 PM
2) EGR is NOT the only source of incresed temperatures in an engine,
many factors play into combustion temperatures.


I thought the EGR lowered combustion temps...

BlazerLT
03-23-2005, 10:52 PM
blazes9395,

No, but you are arguring over a very informative article too.

EGR gas is the #1 method of reducing combustion temperatures which cause detonation, which again causes the computer to retard the timing. So any increase in performance will be removed by the engines timing being dialed back to cool the combustion temperatures with more fuel.

Did you even read the explanation on the website?

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov97/gas.htm

And can the talk about me talking down to you. You said I was wrong and I have the right to prove my point.

blazes9395
03-23-2005, 11:50 PM
EGR is the number one method of reducing temps yes, but in doing so creates a weaking of the combustion process. The problem is as timing is advanced by the computer for better, more efficient(and more horsepower) operation of the engine, with more advance comes more heat. If combustion temperatures reach a certain limit, I think its around 2500 degrees, a lot of nitrous oxides are produced, meaing high emmissions and more engine knock(denotation). This is where the EGR comes into play, cooling the combustion temperatures and reducing the NOx emissions. We know EGR hinders performance because; 1) at WOT its shut off, why? because if your stepping on the throttle that hard, it most likely means you want to move, and you need the most power that can be made at that point. Combustion temperatures are extremely hot at WOT, and emissions are greatly incresed, but your not going to be driving at WOT too long, so emissions suffer, but all avaliable horsepower is produced at that point with no EGR apply, and max allowable (but still regulated based on knock information)advance. At this point timing is retarded based on knock values, but timing is always changing based on knock values, which the computer computes several thousand times a second, so the overall loss of power as result of loss of advace is minimal, and outweighs weak combustion as a result of EGR flow. This is where better octance gas comes into play too as better octance gas is more stable (less knock) at hotter temperatures allowing the computer the most advance of timing. 2)At idle combustion temperatures are low and applying EGR at this point would make the combustion mixture of gas/air weak to the point of not igniting(thats why if your EGR is stuck partially open or open you trucks runs like crap if at all). Now comes the low to mid throttle operation. Emissions can be greatly reduced if during low to mid throttle EGR is applied. The downside?, well its the performance. The more exhaust gases entering the combustion process, the less power that can be attained from each ignition cycle. So there is a line between emissions and performance. Yes, high performance engines, and racers delete the EGR totally because they don't have to worry about emissions and can attain the most power they can possibly make without EGR. For every other regular driver, performance and emissions go hand in hand. This is where the mod of using a restrictor plate to limit the amount of exhaust gas entering the combustion process comes into play. This can also be done by reprogrammig the PCM, changing or modifying the amount of the pintle movement of the EGR solonoid, but this is only done by usually hard core performace people. Like I was explaining, the restrictor plate allows for the operation of the EGR system, but reduces the volume of exhaust gases entering into the combustion chamber allowing for better performance, without setting off a SES code - kinda tricking it alittle. This gives you a little more horsepower and better torque at low to mid range throttle - by limiting the volume of EGR at those points. Many (including myself) have tried this mod and have had a slight increse in horsepower/torque values. This also relates to better fuel economy because the engine is producing more with the same amount of fuel. that is the point of my argument. This information that I mention are not just things I theorize. This is information from research over the years, both at academically and on a personal level for need of knowledge.

BlazerLT
03-24-2005, 12:37 AM
Can I see some proof of this gain?

Is there any dyno numbers proving this?

You see, I always hear of these improvements, but everyone is going by the seat of their pants as the gauge, not actually testing to see if it is doing anything.

Quotes from the article:

A well-designed system will actually increase engine performance and economy. Why? As the combustion chamber temperature is reduced, engine detonation potential is also reduced. This factor enabled the software engineers to write a more aggressive timing advance curve into the spark timing program. If the EGR valve is not flowing, onboard diagnostics (OBD) systems will set a code and the power control module (PCM) will use a backup timing curve that has less advance to prevent engine ping. Less timing advance means less performance and economy.


Also, look at this clip from the article:

How EGR systems work The EGR valve recirculates exhaust into the intake stream. Exhaust gases have already combusted, so they do not burn again when they are recirculated. These gases displace some of the normal intake charge. This chemically slows and cools the combustion process by several hundred degrees, thus reducing NOx formation.


Now, high octane gas also cools the combustion temperatures seeing it burns slower. High octane gas burns at a lower temperature which allows the timing advance to advance further without pinging.

This is the same as EGR gas. It too cools the combustion temperature thus doing the same job and allowing the driver to get more power without having to resort to higher octane fuel.

You don't get more power from higher octane fuel, you get a colder burning fuel.

blazes9395
03-24-2005, 12:48 AM
I had my Camaro tested with a EGR restrictor, both obviously before and after the mod. I gained approx 10rwhp and I forgot what the torque improvment was.....I am looking for that printout I had for that test. I'll post when I find it.

BlazerLT
03-24-2005, 12:52 AM
10rwhp = ~15-20 flywheelhp

I'd like to see this.

chcknugget
03-24-2005, 08:07 AM
A well-designed system will actually increase engine performance and economy. Why? As the combustion chamber temperature is reduced, engine detonation potential is also reduced.

I've heard that at half throttle, when the EGR Is open there is a lot of heat, but not enough to cause detonation. If the EGR lowers the "detonation potential" at cruising it seems like it is limiting something that is not a problem (If you think NOx emissions are not a problem).


This factor enabled the software engineers to write a more aggressive timing advance curve into the spark timing program.


The more aggressive timing with lower combustion temp thing makes sense to me though.

BlazerLT
03-24-2005, 11:08 AM
I've heard that at half throttle, when the EGR Is open there is a lot of heat, but not enough to cause detonation. If the EGR lowers the "detonation potential" at cruising it seems like it is limiting something that is not a problem (If you think NOx emissions are not a problem).

This is because if there is any detonation, the computer will sense it and retard the timing till it doesn't sense it anymore.

The thing is, a lot of people more or less think EGR gas is being pushed into the cylinders in large quantities when in fact, the amount of EGR gas being introduced into the cylinder is actually very small.

Consider EGR gas to be a positive introduction that serves these purposes:

1.) It cools the combustion temperatures just like using high octane gas. This allows for less ping and the computer to advance the timing more than without it.

2.) It lowers NOx emmisions for a cleaner environment.

So, in essence, you get the same horsepower using 87 octane than you would see using high octane gas with the EGR restrictor plate and you will increase your economy.

Sounds like a pretty good deal doesn't it.;)

k5dan
03-24-2005, 04:22 PM
geez, i didn't think this would go so far...

blazee
03-24-2005, 04:41 PM
It is due to boredom. Since everyone is searching the forum and solving their own problems, the regulars have nothing to do, but argue with each other......well except all the ones that are banned.

chcknugget
03-24-2005, 04:42 PM
Yeah I wish people would ask about their front bearings and turbochargers and superchargers again.

owell ::sigh::

blazee
03-24-2005, 04:49 PM
I'm going to the Ford forums, they're always breaking down. :)

BlazerLT
03-24-2005, 05:08 PM
naw guys, this is just an educated debate on this hot topic.

k5dan
03-24-2005, 06:13 PM
Yeah I wish people would ask about their front bearings and turbochargers and superchargers again.

owell ::sigh::

thats awesome :rofl:

k5dan
03-24-2005, 06:14 PM
I'm going to the Ford forums, they're always breaking down. :)

ooops i meant that for this one

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