Howdy,
It seems this forum is a fair cross section of street racers that are racing right now. In your opinion, how fast is a truly fast street car, and where does a vehicle cross the line from being a race or street machine?

I have seen some crazy machines driven on the street, namely a blown alky tube car that ran low 9's, but that is rather extreme. It seems that a low 11 or mid 10 car would easily defeat almost any other competition, and it could be very or almost not at all streetable. It is obviously easier for a forced induction car to be more streetable than a N/A, and nitrous is an option. As a bottom line, I think a low 10's car is virtually undefeatable, and would also take 95% of sportbikes too.

While we are at it, what would be an agreed definition of a "race" or "nascar" motor? In my opinion, the motor would have these features:
1. Aluminum heads w/Ti valves, retainers, etc., either chevy sb 2.2, ford yates C3, or dodge P7.
2. Dry sump oil system
3. Single plane high rise intake, or the svo, bowtie, or mopar variety.
4. A shaft rocker system and exotic solid roller cam
5. Not run real well on the street and get about 5 mpg.
6. Major compression, 13:1 or higher.

For those of you wishing to build the ultimate car, I would recommend picking up cast off nascar parts from last year's motors. If you scrounge you can build a $20k motor for about $6k and trust me, it will make more horsepower than ANYTHING else. There are some compatibility issues and one of these motors is not simple to build, but the potential for 750+ N/A hp out of a 358 inch motor is there.

Here is a recipe:
1. Ford yates C3 heads, new DW Ti valves, Manley valvesprings, Ti retainers/lock, and professionally ported - $2500
2. Forged Venolia pistons $500
3. 351W Windsor Block, fully prepped $1000
4. Forged crank, stroke of choice, giving up to 427 ci $500
5. H-Beam rods, as long as possible $500
6. Miscallaneous (bad spelling) other stuff $1500

Equals giant horsepower, and when dropped into a pinto w/C4 and 4000 rpm converter means ultimate sleeper.

Race on.....

Anything faster than 13.2 is pretty darn fast in my book.
Anything in the low 12s will take a majority of the cars on the street.

If you are faster than low 12s and still race on the street, you have no respect for how much power you have (just my opinion).

For me to consider it a street car in my opinion they have to drive it everyday when the weather is nice. Drive it to work it needs to be your primary car. After meeting those requirements I think you need to be in the mid 12's and lower for me to consider it a really fast street car.

I agree with Hyde and GTStang, and want to add that it depends on who you ask.

As for a street car, I don't think you'll see any 9 sec. cars that are driven daily (which is my definition of a true "street car"). I mean you have to have some serious power to run 9 second 1/4s. I mean I'm not sure our race car is capable of 9 second 1/4s (4.30s in 330 ft, 1.40s 60 ft., have no other stats with the current engine), and there is no way it could be street driven.

As for my definition of a race engine: 4-bolt main block, steel crank and rods. High compression (12:1 and up), large valves, fully ported heads and intake, and some type of race ready carb.

Really fast street cars usually go 12.9 @ 105

Robert Schmitt
Oceanside, NY
'67 Chevy Chevelle
Average: 9.40 @ 141 mph

http://hotrod.com/eventcoverage/113_pgd_07_l.jpg

Next question?

I would say anything 10s and under would be for the track as long as it is American. NO RICE! As far as the streets go my truck stock will take most of the rice boys around my way and thats about mid to low 13s.

there is a BIG difference between a streetcar, a "streetcar", and a race car.

a FAST streetcar is something that you can get rubber in the first 2 gears in, and will push you back in the seat. i would only consider a car in this category to be something you'd be willing to drive every day (or whatever amount you'd drive your daily)

a "streetcar" is something that is FAST, you've made it that way for a reason. not something to be driven every day (like jekyl)...

then u have racecars; you don't want to drive on the street. and... yeah, FAST :)

i don't agree that a 1/4 mile time can tell you how fast a car really is... it takes more than that.

and jeff the "If you are faster than low 12s and still race on the street, you have no respect for how much power you have (just my opinion)." thing... i'd only agree on that if you meant "race" in the sence of an all out display of speed.

You're not a real streetcar unless you still have A/C (exceptions for cars that didn't come with it or areas that don't need it), can safely drive in the rain, can go on a long cruise, can fill up at the pump, can idle without dying or overheating, etc...

I would say anything 10s and under would be for the track as long as it is American. NO RICE! As far as the streets go my truck stock will take most of the rice boys around my way and thats about mid to low 13s.


Crap I guess i'll have to tell the guys with Enzos and Carrerra GTs that they drive slow rice boy cars with all that carbon fiber and big deployable wings. I mean since they are not american...right :rolleyes:

You're not a real streetcar unless you still have A/C (exceptions for cars that didn't come with it or areas that don't need it), can safely drive in the rain, can go on a long cruise, can fill up at the pump, can idle without dying or overheating, etc...

I know your a Moderator, but I Beg to differ... Because I dont have A/C at the moment, the T3/T4 Hyrbid Took its place for a while. Until I get the money for custom A/C lines im shit out of luck. Alot of street racers live and die for the runs. Living paycheck to paycheck to make there ride sweeter and faster than the next. Thats not everything and that surley isnt the only type of street racer. Oh yeah most street racers dont have to take there car to the shop. To be honest you cant really define a street racer, because a street racer just is...

I've got a question...if you've got a daily-driven street car that's running in the 11's and 12's, isn't it probably gonna be non-street legal (mainly in the emissions department), thus defeating the purpose of it being a street car? Or you can actually get most cars that fast without failing emissions?

you should be able to, unless you have completly removed the cat. which tends to give people problems when testing

I would say anything 10s and under would be for the track as long as it is American. NO RICE! As far as the streets go my truck stock will take most of the rice boys around my way and thats about mid to low 13s.

Ah, so imports running 10 and below aren't fast, but american cars are? And imports running low 13's aren't fast for street cars, but American cars doing the same are?

Use your brain much?

the lingenvette is a 9 sec car, and its as streetable as a z06...

and i would say that a 10 sec compact is pretty damn fast...

Hyde hit the nail on the head.

Once you start talking 11s and faster for a street car, than I'm thinking serious speeds.

If anybody has read the september issue of Sport Compact Car, the supra in there is pretty badass. 991whp and 805lb-ft at 39psi(2.7Bar) of boost. It runs 9.7@150. I not sure wheter to believe this or not. But from what they say, it is driven quite often on the street

when you start hitting anything lower then 13's your moving pretty quick.

A fast streetcar is something driven daily and for any purposes and that can hit 13's.

Where I live. 14-15 is usually "fast"....but 13's is fast enough in my books

I personaly think a fast street car is around 11 secs. That can be drivin on a 500 mile trip with out overheating can run on pump gas (93 oct.) octane(sp) booster counts if your just running more boost for that day, runs on street legal tires, can be controlled and not a problem to cruise at the speed limit. it doesnt have to have a/c in my book and can be drivin on a nice day. o also that you wouldnt mind driving to work every day you dont have to but you would do it. one of my buddys dads has a stock ws6 firebird but doesnt drive it more than once a week b/c its his baby and he only takes it out for crusie's.

If any of you read the article in mm&ff mag about new york street racing and the cars that come in on trailers i do not count that as a streetcar. just my

Hell, i gotta a 15.1 second car and i beat mostly anything i run. Turbo eclipses, built Si's, built 'Stangs, ect. Why? They cant drive. Its the death of them. They take off spinning and missing gears. Having a fast streetable car is NOTHING without being able to drive it. And i think EVERYBDOY can agree with me on that.

I agree. Having a car that you can't drive sucks.



ok ok, can we all agree that a fast street car consists of a motor vehicule that is:
1.street legal in most provinces/states
2.can beat 80% of the cars in your area

the lingenvette is a 9 sec car, and its as streetable as a z06...

Actually the C5 is an 8 sec car since it ran a 8.95. I also have heard that it drives pretty much like a zo6. That is the beauty of turbos. I feel bad for anyone that made the mistake of flooring it going down the street. Can't wait for them to fix up the new zo6.
I agree. Having a car that you can't drive sucks.



ok ok, can we all agree that a fast street car consists of a motor vehicule that is:
1.street legal in most provinces/states
2.can beat 80% of the cars in your area
around here it would have to beat 99% of the cars in my area (wyoming) My stock manual accord beats up on 95% of the cars around here and it is in no way shape or form fast. I do however enjoy having more tq than hp, not too many 4 cyl owners can say that.

they got it down to 8.95? thats beast, last time i looked at the lingenvette it was a low 9.

also, it stands to reason that there is a difference between driving a car on the street and being street legal (talking about the 990 hp supra)...

If you want to debate a true "Street legal" car, that would eliminate a large majority of the cars we are talking about.

As soon as you change intake manifolds, cats, the EGR system or even vent the PCV you are not legal to drive in the U.S. regardless of what your particular state says.

**side note, there is a local fellow with a 70's Vette that is inspected and registered that clocks high 7s.

Let's be honest, asking "How fast is a really fast street car?" is a lot like asking how ugly is too ugly to date? It's up the individual, their own preferences and expereince.

If you dont look anything other than a woman, your considered ugly

**side note, there is a local fellow with a 70's Vette that is inspected and registered that clocks high 7s.

That reminds me, how old does your car have to be before it doesn't have to pass emissions? Because I'm sure you could get an old muscle car below 10's without breaking a sweat.

"Passing" emmissions is something that is different in each state.

Removing emmissions equipment is against federal law.

Here in Canada, only Ontario has this "Drive Clean" program for cars that are 15 years or younger. All other cars do not need to take the test

they got it down to 8.95? thats beast, last time i looked at the lingenvette it was a low 9.

also, it stands to reason that there is a difference between driving a car on the street and being street legal (talking about the 990 hp supra)...
here it is: http://lingenfelter.com/images/CF427TT_eprint.pdf

here it is: http://lingenfelter.com/images/CF427TT_eprint.pdf
Notice the cover says "street driven" ... not "street legal" ;)

Ah, but notice that the third page says completely street legal ;)

If you have turbos or a S/C the times you talk about must be with the amount of boost you run on the street and pump gas. None of this I drive it on the street all the time at 14psi and pump gas but when I get to the track I use my boost controller/change pulley and run 25psi with 120 octane race fuel to run 9's BS either. (IMO)

I agree, it would be pointless to have a car running nines on the street anyway. Unless a top fuel dragster happened along.

I agree, it would be pointless to have a car running nines on the street anyway. Unless a top fuel dragster happened along.

...and you'd still get your ass handed to you by a few seconds and over a hundred mph...

The goal for my car is mid-high 10s on pump gas, high 9s to low 10s in 'race mode'. With a 3150lb car(wet), thats roughly 500hp at the wheels for 'street mode'. to break into 9s, thats around 650hp to the wheels. So I'm shootin for 600flywheel-hp in 'street mode' and 800flywheel-hp in 'race mode'. Race mode consists of more boost and higher octane gas, and slicks. Hopefully the motor will be done in a month, then I can spend the winter finishing the rest of the car, and be ready to race come spring. This is a street driven '69 stang, not a trailer queen. Turbos are the way to go for a streetable car that really moves when told to.

two words....high maintenance biotch.....ok, make that three then

500 hp and a 3150 lb car... for 10 second runs in the quarter? yet the Ford GT only does it in 12.2...

The Ford GT isnt set up for drag racing and its more than 3150lbs according to Ford. I think its somewhere around 3400, dry. With a bit of fuel(enough to get you down the track) and a light driver(160lbs, thats what I weigh), you're around 3575lbs. Also Ford's HP readings are for flywheel-hp, so its probably putting 450-475hp to the wheels(if the 550hp is correct, some people report its more than that). So you've got a car not set up for drag racing with 475rwhp and weighing 3575lbs wet vs a drag car with 500rwhp and weighing 3150lbs wet... Not trying to be a dick, but yeah, 500rwhp in a 3150lb car set up for drag racing should get you into 10s. High 10s, like 10.8-10.99. But 10s none the less.

3390 curb test weight w/ 550hp

and numbers look great on paper, i just think they'd be a bit higher

quick question, what does "wet" mean, like full tank of gas?

"With a 3150lb car(wet)"

I think a fast car street car is either a) anything faster than a corvette or b) anything faster than a 13 second 1/4 mile. No one will tell you a corvette is slow. No one. Well, at least not anyone with half a brain.

And a "street car" is a car that's comfortable to commute in, can be used year round in whatever region it resides in, runs well off pump gass, idles semi-smoothly, has most of its interior still in place, is reliable enough to trust with multiple-day drives, etc, etc, etc.

That depends on what year corvette your talking about. I think the Mustang GT is used more often as the barrier between not fast and fast. It runs 14 flat which is a number that is generally only reached or beaten by decently fast sports cars. Frankly I think the standards are different depending on the car at hand. If you have a camaro or mustang, your fast if your in low 13s or the 12s, but i would consider a a sport compact fast if it broke below the 14 second mark.

In my opinion, anything in the 15's or lower is quick. Anything in the 13's or lower is fast. Anything in the 11's or lower is supercar.

I hate how everyone throws the word "supercar" around. It used to mean something, most cars that run in 11's or lower has lost its balance and ability to handle.

The Ford GT isnt set up for drag racing and its more than 3150lbs according to Ford. I think its somewhere around 3400, dry. With a bit of fuel(enough to get you down the track) and a light driver(160lbs, thats what I weigh), you're around 3575lbs. Also Ford's HP readings are for fwhp, so its probably putting 450-475hp to the wheels(if the 550hp is correct, some people report its more than that). So you've got a car not set up for drag racing with 475rwhp and weighing 3575lbs wet vs a drag car with 500rwhp and weighing 3150lbs wet... Not trying to be a dick, but yeah, 500rwhp in a 3150lb car set up for drag racing should get you into 10s. High 10s, like 10.8-10.99. But 10s none the less.

Dear duplox,

Please stop saying "fwhp" unless you're talking about Front Wheel Horse Power. I sit here and think "Mustang... front wheel horse power... WTH?". Then I think for several minutes before I decide you must mean FlyWheel Horse power.

Thank you.
Jason

Dear duplox,

Please stop saying "fwhp" unless you're talking about Front Wheel Horse Power. I sit here and think "Mustang... front wheel horse power... WTH?". Then I think for several minutes before I decide you must mean FlyWheel Horse power.

Thank you.
Jason

No problem, it confuses me too, in a perfect world there would be different acronyms for "front wheel horsepower" and "flywheel horse power". But its not, so there isn't, and I'm lazy. Next time I'll write it out. In fact, since you put it so nicely, I'll go back and change it.


Oh, and 'wet' means what your car weighs at the starting line. This includes any and everything - coolant, fuel, you, your clothes/helmet, fire extinguishers, etc. Dry is the opposite.

I think the line for a street car is incredibly high maintenence (every 500 miles or so), very poor gas mileage (5mpg) or requiring race gas, and exotic components like a lenco 5-spd, 6000 rpm stall converter, or mechanical alcohol injection.

Other criteria, particularly power accesories and A/C, are of little concern especially if the vehicle in question didn't come with them.

Here is a great proposition - I think the ultimate street car is the 3-G machine, capable of pulling a full G on braking, skidpad, and acceleration. That is supercar status, and if it gets 20+ mpg, you have perhaps created the ultimate street car.

If you can live with driving a car on the street, more power to you. And, if you can live 10 mpg (pump gas) on the freeway, idling at 1200 rpm, and having a grabby, chattery clutch, more power to you. Personally, I am looking forward to driving my "hot" '78 Fairmont complete with a 500+ hp full roller N/A small block and 4-spd manual on the street, and even to work on a regular basis if gas prices don't go up any more. It will require occasionally lash and valvespring checks for the solid roller valvetrain and probably get 8-10 mpg city/14 freeway, but that is fine by me. And with a predicted weight of 2500 lbs all up it is very fast - a truly fast street car. Try and work out the 1/4 times for a vehicle like that, and try adding a 150 hp shot of juice to speed things a bit. If you can't build more engine power always go for reduced weight.

Lastly, I don't think a truly fast street car can be bought off the lot, unless you are talking about a 390 hp Cobra or the Dodge Hemi Super stocks of old. Even then, the fastest will always belong to those who craft and conceive their machines themselves.

Race on....

Crap I guess i'll have to tell the guys with Enzos and Carrerra GTs that they drive slow rice boy cars with all that carbon fiber and big deployable wings. I mean since they are not american...right :rolleyes:

I didn't know Italy or Europe for that matter were big in the RICE industry. When I say RICE I mean Jap ie. your civic with the cardboard fiber kit and the 30ft 747 airplane wing on the back. When a Ferrari rolls out of Japan then you can tell a Ferrari owner he is a RICEBOY! rollseyes

Ah, so imports running 10 and below aren't fast, but american cars are? And imports running low 13's aren't fast for street cars, but American cars doing the same are?

Use your brain much?

No RICE doesn't belong at the track 10s or not and I said stock my truck runs 13s there aren't to many RICE cars that come out of the factory running low 13s.

:gives:

No problem, it confuses me too, in a perfect world there would be different acronyms for "front wheel horsepower" and "flywheel horse power".

I just use bhp (brake horsepower). I've only heard this used by the British, and I live in America, but whatever. :)

Good point. I'm used to writing on a forum about old ford v8s, so no one confuses flywheel hp with front wheel hp.

Where i live, fast is 300-400hp w/ 13s attainable, most of us that jack around every weekend racing run 15s , there isn't much competition around and unfortunately, i'm third in my general class around here behind a prelude (dunno haven't raced him) and a GS-T (get him off the line til 3rd) besides that a 240 is 4th and everything else that wants to run so here
Here:13s are fast
14s and 15s dominate most around town in general

No problem, it confuses me too, in a perfect world there would be different acronyms for "front wheel horsepower" and "flywheel horse power".


Try, crank hp or hp at the crank thats what i use to be less confusing

Where i live, fast is 300-400hp w/ 13s attainable,
How heavy are the cars where you live?

300-400 HP is easy 12s .... if not low 11s with good driving for a typical 2800-3200 lbs car.

If anybody has read the september issue of Sport Compact Car, the supra in there is pretty badass. 991whp and 805lb-ft at 39psi(2.7Bar) of boost. It runs 9.7@150. I not sure wheter to believe this or not. But from what they say, it is driven quite often on the street

It's clone is for sale: http://autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=161600561&dealer_id=&car_year=1995&make=TOYOTA&distance=100&max_price=&model=SUPRA&end_year=2005&advcd_on=n&min_price=&address=85017&search_type=used&advanced=n&start_year=1993&color=&cardist=100

At a huge bargain, I might add, for what you're getting.

I've seen that car in the mag run a few mid 9-second passes personally, and this car is it's (almost) double, built by the same people.

I've got a question...if you've got a daily-driven street car that's running in the 11's and 12's, isn't it probably gonna be non-street legal (mainly in the emissions department), thus defeating the purpose of it being a street car? Or you can actually get most cars that fast without failing emissions?

my car will hit 12's with all the emissions connected and ac and it didn't take much to get tit thier

the lingenvette is a 9 sec car, and its as streetable as a z06...

i thaught the new ones were in the 8's
and have all emissions full weight with a stereo and ac

wasnt the question whats a fast car considered

fast cars can do 175+
quick cars can do 1/4 mile in 12s-

It's clone is for sale:

At a huge bargain, I might add, for what you're getting.

I've seen that car in the mag run a few mid 9-second passes personally, and this car is it's (almost) double, built by the same people.

I did notice a few differences such as the exhaust and injectors, but damn. I think I like the clone better. More of a sleeper and it looks super clean. Did Boost Logic have anything to do with the original? Oh and for you fast street car debaters, check out www.boostlogic.com. It must be nice to own a shop that specializes in Supras. Lucky you getting to see that car run. N2O next? Do you know the specifics on the turbo? .81 turbine is all it said.

How heavy are the cars where you live?

300-400 HP is easy 12s .... if not low 11s with good driving for a typical 2800-3200 lbs car.

the drivers SUCK and have no traction cuz they haven't invested in good tires for tooooo long most of them stick in the low 13s though i'm not totally sure if they broke that yet and the one w/ the most hp is a show car and has his entire trunk filled w/ sound equipment and crap

No RICE doesn't belong at the track 10s or not and I said stock my truck runs 13s there aren't to many RICE cars that come out of the factory running low 13s.

i still don't understand what is your hate. but don't catergorize everyone japanese imports just becuase the japanese imports at your area are ricers. there are plenty of fast imports out there, and there are plenty of imports that ran 13's stock. in fact even more imports ran 13's at one point then the domestics did.

during the 90's we had the Z32 300ZX TT, the Supra TT, the 3000GT VR-4, the NSX, the RX-7 TT's, and now we have the STi, the EVO 8, the 350Z track model, the 04 S2000.

what do americans have now or back in the 90's that ran 13's?

the Camaro and Firebird twins? i would count those as one car. the LT-1 vette? the LT5 Vette? the LS6, LS1 vette, the 00 up Cobras. and the viper.

but generally, thats still many gens of a few models. which means only the vettes, the F bodies, the 00 + cobras and vipers, your cyclone and the lightning ran 13's.

so the ratio is about the same. i don't see your point of looking down on imports. in japan we got even more 13 second cars.

such as the gen 3 mr2, the impreza wrx and all its variations, the nissan stagea wagon, every GT-R from 89 up, and the later 2.5 GT turbos in the R34 chassis, or the S15 silvia, or the toyota Soarers. do i need to go on? and everyone one of them are turbo charged. so with around 2000 invested your in the low 12's. and in certain cases such as RazorGTR's GTR he runs a 12 flat with home made parts.

No RICE doesn't belong at the track 10s or not and I said stock my truck runs 13s there aren't to many RICE cars that come out of the factory running low 13s.

Nice try. Please proceed to driving your vehicle into a brick wall.

i still don't understand what is your hate. but don't catergorize everyone japanese imports just becuase the japanese imports at your area are ricers. there are plenty of fast imports out there, and there are plenty of imports that ran 13's stock. in fact even more imports ran 13's at one point then the domestics did.

during the 90's we had the Z32 300ZX TT, the Supra TT, the 3000GT VR-4, the NSX, the RX-7 TT's, and now we have the STi, the EVO 8, the 350Z track model, the 04 S2000.

what do americans have now or back in the 90's that ran 13's?

the Camaro and Firebird twins? i would count those as one car. the LT-1 vette? the LT5 Vette? the LS6, LS1 vette, the 00 up Cobras. and the viper.

but generally, thats still many gens of a few models. which means only the vettes, the F bodies, the 00 + cobras and vipers, your cyclone and the lightning ran 13's.

so the ratio is about the same. i don't see your point of looking down on imports. in japan we got even more 13 second cars.

such as the gen 3 mr2, the impreza wrx and all its variations, the nissan stagea wagon, every GT-R from 89 up, and the later 2.5 GT turbos in the R34 chassis, or the S15 silvia, or the toyota Soarers. do i need to go on? and everyone one of them are turbo charged. so with around 2000 invested your in the low 12's. and in certain cases such as RazorGTR's GTR he runs a 12 flat with home made parts.

I don't have a problem with imports I have a problem with Rice! In fact I own a Nissan Hardbody which is my daily driver and probably the best damn running truck out there. Yes I agree that in Japan there are a lot of 13 sec. cars but you have to consider there emissions laws and if your talking about dropping money into a car then thats no contest. A lot of cars have the potential to be quick if you drop money into them. I'm just saying I prefere a nice Chevelle or any American car over a Riced Out Civic.

you can't compare a civic and a chevelle, they aren't even in relevant classes across the translation! a Supra, RX-7, or 300ZX would be good to translate to and they don't rice them out, a lot of the ones you see with kits and hood scoops are there for a reason, TO KEEP THE CAR ON THE GROUND, civics generally aren't anything to sweat about

I don't have a problem with imports I have a problem with Rice! In fact I own a Nissan Hardbody which is my daily driver and probably the best damn running truck out there. Yes I agree that in Japan there are a lot of 13 sec. cars but you have to consider there emissions laws and if your talking about dropping money into a car then thats no contest. A lot of cars have the potential to be quick if you drop money into them. I'm just saying I prefere a nice Chevelle or any American car over a Riced Out Civic.

My apologies for my last ignorant post. I thought you meant imports in general.

well GMCcyclone you should've been more specific in your original post. anyways nissanfanatic your soon to be setup sounds very very close to my setup. lolz but i still have more stuff. and your missing the all important walbro 255 liter/hr fuel pump. the stock S13 pumps are garbage. i wouldn't trust that for anything.

you can't compare a civic and a chevelle, they aren't even in relevant classes across the translation! a Supra, RX-7, or 300ZX would be good to translate to and they don't rice them out, a lot of the ones you see with kits and hood scoops are there for a reason, TO KEEP THE CAR ON THE GROUND, civics generally aren't anything to sweat about

If you knew how to read you would have saw that I wrote "or any American car over a Riced Out Civic." So I didn't just compare a Chevelle to a Civic I compared any America car out there to a Civic. Oh and I am really sure that your street car needs a 30ft. wing for downforce to hold it to the ground. The day I see a Civic or Supra or whatever rice out there so fast that it actually needs downforce is the day that I will admit that a street car needs a kit and wing for downforce but until then its RICE! Don't get me wrong some kits can dress a car up but most are ineffective and produce drag rather than downforce.

In japan, they have cars that you would consider riced out, that stay on the road at 180mph BECAUSE they have those things
CIVICS aren't worth anything unless its an SI
Mitsubishi Eclipses have a front spoiler to keep the nose of their cars on the ground and ACTUALLY work any car thats fwd w/ a wing deserves to blow up, 30ft wing is just a tad unreasonable, but anything RWD or awd w/ a wing doesn't hurt because in racing every little bit counts and that little bit helps them win races
I agree anything that isn't functional is RICE but i'm talking about functional wings, hood scoops, etc.

I'd have to say you need to be running at least solid 12's to be a "fast" street car. And be daily driven (or at least daily driveable). Anyone can take their race car out for a spin on the street, that doesn't make it a street car. My truck has a/c, stereo, full interior and tonneau cover, same way I run it at the track (with slicks for the track of course), to me that's a street car, or truck in my case ;)

well GMCcyclone you should've been more specific in your original post. anyways nissanfanatic your soon to be setup sounds very very close to my setup. lolz but i still have more stuff. and your missing the all important walbro 255 liter/hr fuel pump. the stock S13 pumps are garbage. i wouldn't trust that for anything.

Thank you. I was debating on whether or not to get it. What size T04 are you running.

The day I see a Civic or Supra or whatever rice out there so fast that it actually needs downforce is the day that I will admit that a street car needs a kit and wing for downforce but until then its RICE!

The car's rear hatch is heavily modified with a fabricated steel spoiler that adds the mass and stability necessary to plant this Supra's ass on the salt at 250 mph.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/74362/

In japan, they have cars that you would consider riced out, that stay on the road at 180mph BECAUSE they have those things
CIVICS aren't worth anything unless its an SI
Mitsubishi Eclipses have a front spoiler to keep the nose of their cars on the ground and ACTUALLY work any car thats fwd w/ a wing deserves to blow up, 30ft wing is just a tad unreasonable, but anything RWD or awd w/ a wing doesn't hurt because in racing every little bit counts and that little bit helps them win races
I agree anything that isn't functional is RICE but i'm talking about functional wings, hood scoops, etc.

I can agree with that as long as its functional its not Rice!

http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/74362/

Yes this is true but he is not going 250mph down the hwy. Your average Supra is not moving at 250 mph therefore it doesn't need to have a riced out kit and spoiler and I doubt that Supra is his daily driver.

You said the day I see A SUPRA that needs a spoiler :rolleyes: .... blah, blah, blah.
The OEM Supra wing adds 8 lbs of downforce.

The "domestic" guys were going "ricey" way before the import crowd ...
... I mean how many Dodge Chargers needs this:
http://www.eastohiocoolcars.com/Road%20Trip/RoadTrip2003/005/1970DaytonaA3.JPG

You said the day I see A SUPRA that needs a spoiler :rolleyes: .... blah, blah, blah.
The OEM Supra wing adds 8 lbs of downforce.

The "domestic" guys were going "ricey" way before the import crowd ...
... I mean how many Dodge Chargers needs this:
http://www.eastohiocoolcars.com/Road%20Trip/RoadTrip2003/005/1970DaytonaA3.JPG

Actually, the race versions did since it had a horrible time be stable at 200+ speeds. The reason it was so frigin' high (If I remember correctly, but I could be wrong) was so that you could actually open the trunk. But your point is valid. The street version did not need it.

I think what it really comes down to is that most people who add large wings to their cars

1) Are adding more force then needed due to not knowing how wings work.

2) Are never going to see the speeds that the wing becomes useful.

For the most part, like that picture, it's all cosmetic and race inspired. Is this wrong? *shrug* Do what you want to do. However, what bothers me is people come on here trying to say that the wings have use in 95% of most driving expiriences. Do they have uses on supercars? Yes. Some people actually do high speed track racing with supercars. Do they have used on race modified daily drivers? If they are doing track races at high speeds. Do they have uses on Civics, V6 Mustangs, or hell any non track racing car? (Domestic, import, or from Mars) No.

I can agree with that as long as its functional its not Rice!
good stuff common ground :D

Don't get me wrong some kits can dress a car up but most are ineffective and produce drag rather than downforce.
This implies that you have tested or read test results where they have
documented that most kits are ineffective and produce drag.
I would like to see this information.

Can you please back up your words?

His words cannot be backed up because they are based on opinion and not fact. I think that most kits do increase downforce at higher speeds, which is exactly the problem with putting them on a car with no power. It will reduce the top speed, and when your talking about a civic dx that is not a good thing.

Kits, as in body kits, don't have to create down force to be affective.
They can be affective simply by decreasing the amount of air that goes under the car and that can matter at any speed.

That is why the SCCA restricts ground effects in certain classes in the Solo II racing even though you never see speeds much beyond 50 mph.

In is not correct to say his words I quoted above are "opinion." What he stated is something that can be verified. My issue is that he made a claim ... he stated it as fact. It's something that can be verified.

Opinion: What is a fast street car?
Verifiable fact: Are most body kits ineffective?

There is no room for opinions when dealing with facts.

I agree, but he is basing what he said on his opinion and not facts and is probably so closed minded that HE would never be able to prove what he said because he doesn't feel the need to.

100% agreed on "closed minded."

:)

Remember that he is a domestic drivin e-thug and doesn't care about the facts cause that would make everything he believes about his car and other domestics a total lie.


Also, about what you said about air not rushing under the car- would that not be considered more downforce? Is that not the same as less lift?

The only thing is, that's a lot of faith in the aftermarket companies. Now I am no expert on this, so bare with me, but I would think that most companies are going to cater more to what looks cool then to what is truly beneficial. (5 inch mufflers?) After all, looks sell. I guess I have a hard time trusting that said kits have been test and numbers aren't just fudged. I have read that a lot of times that after market compaines over boast how much performance a bolt on will give to sell various things. Would this not be the same case for kits? Example: I have seen kits with roof scoops. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't roof scoops mainly used for air intake on mid engine cars? (Non functional hood scoops would be another example. Added resistance for nothing gained.) I would think that adding this to any other car would just increase air resistance. I am only pointing this out since this is a interesting topic.

**looking for article

I was just reading a journal article online a few weeks ago that was explaining the benefits of ground effects in reducing the turbulance under the car and around the wheels to benefit performance.

Sean_S, you have valid points.
Yes, aftermarket companies exagerate claims all the time ... so do auto manufacturer's.

I am specifically discussing ground effects/body kits.
As long as they reduce the air flow under the car (bring it closer to the ground) they will benefit performance.
The only way I could see a ground effects kit negatively affecting performance would be if it exceptionally heavy or if it has scoops (and things) that move air to a place you do not want it.
As far as my understanding goes, as long as the ground affect is solid and brings the car closer tothe ground, it is affective.

I like body kits but they are pointless... unless you have a race car and race on tracks why get a body kit or wing? I mean who the hell drives fast enough on the street for it to help? And if someone does then they should be shot for going that fast on public roads.

I am a domestic owner/lover myself but i respect all of the imports out there and i have noticed that alot of the import guys are nice to me in here, when i get a kill they say "nice kill for the domestics" and i think that we need to return the favor. So GMCSyclone, from one domestic owner/lover to another just stop being so opiniated and have a good time here. No need to argue or fight.

You said the day I see A SUPRA that needs a spoiler :rolleyes: .... blah, blah, blah.
The OEM Supra wing adds 8 lbs of downforce.

The "domestic" guys were going "ricey" way before the import crowd ...
... I mean how many Dodge Chargers needs this:
http://www.eastohiocoolcars.com/Road%20Trip/RoadTrip2003/005/1970DaytonaA3.JPG

This car actually needed it for the superspeedways it was designed to compete in(Hence the name Daytona). Although the wing was definetly not needed for the street versions if it was not sold that way. The wing would of been illegal to use in racing. So it was not put on there for look or style on the race or street version it had to be there.

jonnyboy9012, great post. ;)

Robert Schmitt
Oceanside, NY
'67 Chevy Chevelle
Average: 9.40 @ 141 mph

http://hotrod.com/eventcoverage/113_pgd_07_l.jpg

Next question?

take off that 300 shot of nitrous then what? 11's? 12's?

http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/images/res_ethug.jpg

another lame attempt at trying to insult Mustang owners. :rolleyes: typical.

Actually that image was aimed at domestic drivers in general, not Mustang owners specifically.

also some front drivers do need wings in the back. however the shape of the curve of the wing is different. while most RWD needs downforce, a FWD needs to combat front end lift. so instead of the wing designed to push down on the rear, its actually designed to pull the rear end up to keep the front wheels planted. that is also why the older cars back in the 60's had a hard time keeping their front wheels on the ground. they had no means to combat lift at high speeds.

GMCSyclone, if it's one thing you need to learn it's this:

This whole imports vs. domestics thing is a bunch of crap. It's like political parties(democrats are better than republicans, and vice versa) The truth of the matter is they both are a bunch of bullshitters, and they both have a bunch of faults. Post earlier said imports had more 12/13 second cars in the 90's, a democrat was in office most of the 90's, now we have a republican. Point i'm trying to make is things change, maybe americans will have more 12/13 second cars in this decade. Who cares? Someone having a 12/13 second civic is just like someone back in the 60's and 70's having a 12/13 second Nova, they were looked down upon because it was a nova. Now those Nova's are respectable cars. I say if someone wants to take their civic or whatnot to the track, who cares, let them. What harm are they going to do you, if he's faster, congratulate him, cause he did something not a lot of people do.

Final Thought: In this crazy world of drag vs drift, V8 vs Turbo I4 or I6, you have to ask yourself one question......I ran out of ideas, so i may edit this post later when i can think of something intelligent to say.

Ugh, another import vs domestic thread. Simple, whatever you liek is better, there, fell better now?
:grinno:

Actually that image was aimed at domestic drivers in general, not Mustang owners specifically.

So it's ok for an import driver to dis domestics, but its not ok for a domestic driver to dis imports???? You may have not of meant it that way, and from previous post I've read of yours, I wouldn't have thought you would "dis domestics", but that's just how this post came across to me.

Either way, I have just done a quick Google search on body kits, and I haven't found the first link that says if a body kit helps or not. MOST of what I found were just trying to sale a body kit. None of the sites I visited (4 or so) mentioned that they would improve downforce, etc, but ALL of them preached how "cool" a kit would look on a car.

Now I would think they WOULD improve downforce when done right (my example is NASCAR, there is no way those cars could go 180+ mph without front and rear spoilers, they would literally come off the ground-same with Funny cars and Top Fuel dragsters).

With that said though, I say 95% of the poeple buying body kits and wings are just doing it for the "cool look" that the manufacturer's market, rather then the possible benefits (which they rarely, if ever market).

As far as domestic vs import, well its OUR choice: both can be made fast. For you, its your 11 second MR2. For me, its our 4 second (330 ft) Chevrolet Vega-BTW, not streetable, lol!

If a car is fast, I don't care what badge is on the front; it's fast, and I will respect it.

Actually some body kits can improve aredynamics. But these days, most of them are on the market for looks.

Take the STi and EvolutionVII for example. The front bumper to rear wing all serve a purpose. Much attention was put into these cars

As for me, I could care less what brand the car is, if it looks good and performs well...I'll like it be it import OR domestic.

Agreed

So it's ok for an import driver to dis domestics, but its not ok for a domestic driver to dis imports???? You may have not of meant it that way, and from previous post I've read of yours, I wouldn't have thought you would "dis domestics", but that's just how this post came across to me.
Honestly, I only posted the photo for comic relief, not a sincere observation on "domestic drivers."
I came from a domestic world ... I grew up in a see of Camaros, 56 Chevy's, Cougars and Vettes. I appreciate the potential in a lot of cars.

The reason I race/drive MR2s is because there is not another car (that is not an exotic) that can do everything an MR2 can do:
Road race, autocross and drag race competitively while getting close to 30 mpg and have the true sports car layout (mid-engine, rwd).

So in all honesty, I am biased against domestics AND imports :D
I am the anti-non-MR2s

lol

In all seriousness, the only person I was bothered in here was the closed-minded fellow I originally posted the photo too. I am really impressed and glad that there are so many open-minded domestic guys in here. Some day people will realize that BOTH sides can learn a LOT from the other side ... just like the republicans and democratts ;)

I heard that Jekyl. They are closed-minded people on both sides and they really bring down a good thread/discussion.

BTW, have you been able to get the front tires of your MR2 off teh ground?? I know a couple days ago those were your plans.

Within in the next few weeks I will ahve my new drag wheel set up ... the front wheels will not be coming up until then ;)

Are you expecting a lower et? or are you just gonna put the wheels in the air for fun? I know I would love to see pictures of that (if you can get em)

Are you expecting lower ET's? or are you just gonna put the wheels in the air for fun? I know I would love to see pictures of that (if you can get em)

The wheels I am buying are absolutely going to lower my ETs. The front wheel weigh only 7 lbs .... the rears 10 lbs.

My tire widths currently are:
215 front and 255 rear
The new set up is going to be:
165 front and 275 rear

Should provide significantly better launches and drastically reduced rolling resistance.

That figures, i have to go through the "import v.s. domestic" bullshit to actually get to the good stuff at the end of the thread. :rolleyes:
Sometimes i think people like arguing. Does someone elses stupidity really bother yall that much? Yeah me too...lol.
But anyways, hopefully we'll all be able to see those front tires come up soon.... :naughty:

Well good luck with getting the front tires up. IT will definetely change how your car feels like its launching, and I can garuntee that!

Now don't get me wrong, you may not be able to tell they are in the air when it first launches (I can't tell it with our car, and the left tire is close to a foot off the ground and the right is only a few inches) but I can tell when they set down (it almost takes the wheel from you, kinda like how a FWD car does when they spin). Of course you've been at it alot longer then I have, lol (oh probably a few thounsand races more, lol), but eitherway it's gonna take some getting used to!

Wheel stands don't really help anything (meaning it probably won't be the reason your ETs come down-if they do come down it will be the lighter weight of the wheels and better rear traction), but they sure do look cool and are a crowd pleaser.

GMCSyclone...I recognize your avatar...I'm about 99% positive I've seen you on Ritchie Highway before. Oh yeah...and once again JekylAndHyde has proved he's the most useful person on this forum. He almost makes me want to buy an MR2.

Actually, getting the front tires just barely off the ground is a good indication at least... shows you're getting 100% weight transfer to the rear tires.

Actually, getting the front tires just barely off the ground is a good indication at least... shows you're getting 100% weight transfer to the rear tires.

I agree. But I'm referring to when a car brings the front tires more then a couple inches off the ground. When that starts happening, it affects the way the car drives.

You guys are along the right lines ... ideally you want the front wheels hanging where they are barely contacing the surface (less rolling resistance), but not so high that you are letting so much air under the car that it negatively affects acceleration.

I just ran 11.78@112.41MPH last saturday with my 105,000 mile daily driven streetcar...... on pump gas, slicks, and 24 PSI of boost.

You guys are along the right lines ... ideally you want the front wheels hanging where they are barely contacing the surface (less rolling resistance), but not so high that you are letting so much air under the car that it negatively affects acceleration.

Absolutely.. you don't want to be goin down the track like this:
http://www.calvertracing.com/gallery/images/aandlmustang.jpg

.. more like.. this:
http://www.calvertracing.com/gallery/images/thibertventura.jpg

Pictures from the Calvert racing site. Gotta get me some of those caltracs. either that or a 4link...

I just ran 11.78@112.41MPH last saturday with my 105,000 mile daily driven streetcar...... on pump gas, slicks, and 24 PSI of boost.

ROCK ON !!!

Let's race woohoo!

duplox, that second picture would be perfect! I wished our car would leave like that!

But it really isn't all that bad now. If it don't rain us out tomorrow, i'm gonna get someone to take a picture of me leaving the line. The left tire comes up pretty high, but the right barely comes up, lol.

i htink where i am, fast in a street car is hittin the low 13 second range, plus its drivable. My cuzin has a RSX Type-S and its hittin high 12s (with slicks) and its drivable, oh yeah, its naturally aspirated too.

I apologize for being a bit late on the aero/body kit dicussion, but I think I can help clear a few things up:

Any body kit that limits the amount of air going under the car, and redirects the airflow around the car to reduce drag will help some. Ideally you want the minimum volume of air moving at the maximum speed under the car to increase downforce. This is the primary reason that a flat-bottomed car is able to produce much more downforce with less drag than a non-flat bottomed car. The questions that remain is how much will the body kit in question reduce the amount of air going under the car vs. how much drag is produced, and if there are any other benefits (brake ducts, radiator openings, etc).

The rear wing on FWD cars is an interesting topic that doesn't get discussed much. Basically, in FWD cars that understeer to begin with, adding some rear downforce may be effective at higher speeds, but usually the compromise leans more towards the low drag side of the drag vs downforce debate. A rear wing can improve the airflow and lower the drag of the car in some cases even if it does not produce any downforce, and is just used to clean up the airflow around the car. For an example of this, here's a pic of one of the top FWD SPEED World Challenge Cars:

http://www.theracesite.com/index.cfm?template=pa&form_pa_id=425&form_photo_num=1

Look at the rear wing angle. Though it is pointing up, with the direction of airflow over the car, it is very likely that that there is a bit of downforce being produced by the wing, but its primary purpose is to reduce drag and increase straight line speed without compromising rear end stability.

ROCK ON !!!

Let's race woohoo!


Right on, Man your MPH are impressive it's a stick right? Mine are so low because of my slush box and my 3,400 RPM non-lockup converter. Oh well, my 60 ft is in the 1.64 range.

Right on, Man your MPH are impressive it's a stick right? Mine are so low because of my slush box and my 3,400 RPM non-lockup converter. Oh well, my 60 ft is in the 1.64 range.
I am stick ... 5-speed.
I have hit 1.676 and 1.684. Those are my only 1.6s.
If everything goes right this weekend at Nopi, my MPH should be going up in a healthy way ;)

my friend has a 92 civic with a gsr block he runs low 11s with out slicks and it is street legal i consider that a real fast street legal car it could beet almost any car u see on the street.i think 14s and below is a really fast street leagal car

my friend has a 92 civic with a gsr block he runs low 11s with out slicks and it is street legal i consider that a real fast street legal car it could beet almost any car u see on the street.i think 14s and below is a really fast street leagal car

11s with out slicks? :sly:

Its possible but he would have to be making crazy power to get back on pace after the weak launches he would have to do.

he has 448 wheel horse power a 6000 dollar turbo charger and a fully custom rebuilt gsr block he did low 11s wid his 4 year old tranny he jus blew it and is getting a new tranny and a faster engine he is selling his engine wid the turbo kit for 7000 o ya its possible

he has 448 wheel horse power a 6000 dollar turbo charger and a fully custom rebuilt gsr block he did low 11s wid his 4 year old tranny he jus blew it and is getting a new tranny and a faster engine he is selling his engine wid the turbo kit for 7000 o ya its possible

I have a magazine with a daily driven 900whp supra. I'm guessing that is fast.

my friend has a 92 civic with a gsr block he runs low 11s with out slicks and it is street legal i consider that a real fast street legal car it could beet almost any car u see on the street.i think 14s and below is a really fast street leagal car


I'd like to see pictures that include a time slip.

i second that

i noe of an ford falcon XB coupe with a 505ci ford block with nos that runs high 8's and is street driven.And i also noe of a 1972 Cuda with a 600ci block that runs 8's with wheel spin in NZ.

i dont have 1 but if u dont want to beleive me than ok he is getting a new tranny and a new motor his motor is only a few months old he is selling it wid his 6000 dollar turbo kit for 7000 and wants a faster engine dont ask me why

i noe of an ford falcon XB coupe with a 505ci ford block with nos that runs high 8's and is street driven.And i also noe of a 1972 Cuda with a 600ci block that runs 8's with wheel spin in NZ.
now, from personal opinion, the falcon is a neat car, so is the cuda... now what i'd like to do in time after the j30 is complete is get a 70 maverick and drop either a 302 5.0 in it (already have one) or a 351 into it... if i can find one at a good price. Those cars with a v8 go really fast, i don't know the times on them (cause i've never seen one do the 1/4) but my dad says that since they came stock with a v6 (long) just imagine what you can do with that space in the hood with a bigger more powerful engine.

A fast street car should be a smog legal, sub 13 second, daily driver that get's at least 20mpg on the highway with the AC on and Slayer blasting out of all 8 speakers!

now, from personal opinion, the falcon is a neat car, so is the cuda... now what i'd like to do in time after the j30 is complete is get a 70 maverick and drop either a 302 5.0 in it (already have one) or a 351 into it... if i can find one at a good price. Those cars with a v8 go really fast, i don't know the times on them (cause i've never seen one do the 1/4) but my dad says that since they came stock with a v6 (long) just imagine what you can do with that space in the hood with a bigger more powerful engine.

I am talking about the australian version of the falcon.The XB falcon would have had a 250 crossflow in it.But out of any falcon, the XB has the most space of all.And they had stock guards that could easily fit 10 inch bags under.This XB i speak of had room for more cubes if it was needed.But what the guy who owns it drives it to the drag meets he takes part in...