1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2.2 Turbo 2

I am having a problem with gas getting in my oil (or a gassy smell to the oil) and it is thinning it out, I have changed the oil 4 times since the rebuild and the motor only has 400 miles on it. I have tried many things to remedy this and no luck, also this car had the same problem before the rebild as well.... Here is what I have added new to the car so far.

Engine rebuild .30 over (new gaskets, pistons, rings, bearings, camshaft, lifters)
Rebuilt Turbo with Quick spool option added from Turbos Unleashed
Adjustable Wastegate Actuator
Valve Job
Stage 3 ECU from FWD
Mopar oxygen Sensor
autolite 63 plugs gapped at .35
plug wires
cap and rotor
starter
120 amp alternator
804 Injectors added about a year and a half before rebuild
K&N Drop in air filter
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator from FWD
HEP
Distributor is fairly new as well
PCV Valve
Breather Filter
Air/Fuel Guage

My base pressure is at 58lbs. vacuum line unhooked. The regulator is not leaking gas in the vacuum line. The car is not running rich. the plugs are tannish white in color. I have removed the CAT. and the vapor cannister is not hooked up. My vacuum at idle is around 18 or a little over. I could not tell you what kinda mileage I am getting because the odometer dont work (will be fixing that soon). My boost is at 16lbs and I am running full rich at thatlevel too, heck I tried 20lbs and it was still running rich, but I backed it down to what my computer is made to handle

My compression readings are 115 115 120 115. I know these are low, i need to get a adjustable cam sprocket because I know its about a half a tooth off. Could gas be getting past my rings?? How long does it take for rings to seat properly?

The oil that I have in it now is Mobil sythetic and it seemed to last a bit longer than the conventional oil, but I cannot afford to change the oil every 100 miles LOL.

I am completely stumped here... any ideas? I love driving this car and I refuse to drive it with this condition going on.

part of your problem is using synthetic oil. It is not a good plan to use it for the break in period, better to use petroleum oils for the first 5000 or so miles, as with the synthetics, the rings will not seat properly, and you will have grief. good luck

the first 3 oil changes were regular petroleum oil. I just used the sythetic last time to see if there would be any difference. but thanx for the suggestion though

ok, well, you were saying you only had about 400 miles since the rebuild, that does not constitute a break in period for any engine bigger than about 125cc.

The low compression issue is resolved normally by the boost as the turbo spools up. Too high compression, and you have a grenade.

I am not sure on the 2.2 if the injectors are anywhere near an oil jacket / gallery. If they are, that could be a weak point. It could also be that the injectors are leaking slightly, dumping gas into the engine when it is not running, and washing the cylinder walls. Thus creating the gas in oil problem.

I do know people that have had trouble with injector o-rings from time to time, and they can be the most simple culprit in a case like that.

So, go back to petroleum oils for a while yet, and check out anything on the fuel delivery side.

thanx for the reply. I did a leak test on my injectors over a 24 hour period and nothing leaked out.

Could you go into further details on how a o-ring can cause this problem??

how many miles does it take for the engine to usually break in??

I plan on going to the junkyard to buy a set of stock injectors to see if this will remedy my situation.

On the automotive rebuilds that I do, for break in, I assemble the engine with friction master asembly lube, then when it fires up, check for oil pressure etc. and run it for about 20 minutes. I usually use 5w30 esso or valvoline oils. I then do a very short road trip, 20 km or less, easy on the throttle, and drop the oil and filter. I refill with fresh oil, new filter, and run it for approx. 500 km, at which point I change the oil again, and refill / filter / run it to 5000 km, and then change oil every 5000 km after that.

I tend to wait until around the 5 - 10,000 km change to bother with synthetic. This gives the various components in the engine time to take a good set with each other, including rings, bearings and so on.

5000 km is roughly 3000 miles.

Now, as far as o-rings go, if there is a twisted, torn, nicked, or otherwise bad o-ring on an injector, it can allow fuel to leak by it. If the injectors happen to go through or past an oil gallery, this can cause cross contamination. Or, it can allow fuel to pool in the intake, or farther downstream as it leaks into 1 or more cylinders.

Just for info, what kind of leak test did you do?

This is going to sound borderline special, but, sometimes when you bring the system up to full pressure, be it 50 - 60 - 70 psi, it will actually mask the problem, as it can cause the o-ring to pressure seal itself. When the pressure drops back, the o-ring seal then becomes compromised again, and allows fuel to leak by.

I have had this problem before on TBI vehicles, where once the system pressured up, the o ring under the injector worked fine, but on the way up to pressure, as well as after the pressure dropped back a little, the o-ring would start to leak.

How about that for some brain munchies. Good luck on it, let me know.

I like pind's method.

On the leak test I took the fuel rail out of the intake and had a friend turn the car over so I could see if one or more was constantly spraying but no they were cycling like they were supposed to and they had a good spray pattern. then I set the rail on some cardboard and let it sit there. After checking every 15 minutes or so there were no leaks on the cardboard. I left them out for 24 hours like that too. also I did a fuel pressure test beforehand and the pressure would hold at its 58lbs when the car was off for a good 45 minutes or a bit more. after about 12 hours the pressure would be down to zero.

The injectors are about 2 years old. I installed the o-rings using petroleum jelly on the outsides of both o-rings (one that goes into fuel rail and other that goes in intake)

if I am not mistaken the injectors do not go through or past and oil gallery,they just sit in the intake and the fuel they spray is sucked through the intake ports in the head. Thats why I am having a hard time seeing how a o-ring could cause this when one o-ring is just sitting in the intake and the top ring is in the fuel rail. I am not saying your wrong by any means at all.

OK, dumb question # 203458761 part a:

How close are the injectors to the intake manifold / head mating surface. If the answer is very close, you might want to make sure that the flange and associated area is not warping under bolt torque. On alloy parts, this is very important.

I am pretty sure the answer to your problem is a simple one, and I am going to consult with some of the guys who ice race these cars, to see what their experience is with it as well. Meantime, we will continue trying to find a sensible solution.

ok here is a link to a pic of the intake, you can see where the injectors go in at. They are about a inch and half away from the mounting area

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo/t1t2intake.jpg

How can I make sure it is not warping. I tried spraying carb cleaner round the intake the car did not idle up

try spraying something flammable. Carb cleaner is horrible for that purpose. wd-40 works better from my experience

alrighty I will do that first thing in the morning, when the motor is cold and when the motor is warm. I do remember though about a week ago I did use some wd-40 on the top of the intake flange when the car was running and it didnt idle up. I was spraying wd-40 around the injectors to see if the o-rings were leaking too

however I did not try it on the bottom flange because I would have to get under the car for that one

I tried spraying wd40 around the intake,no difference but it very well may be injector trouble. I found a good read on injectors and they have some bad things to say about 804 injectors. link to the site is below.... however this is what is confusing me about my injectors is on the package they were in had the number P4452804 (804's) well according to this page they say that the 804's dont flow like they are supposed to and to use number 5277895 injector.... but that number is stamped on my injectors. but give it a read if you have time and lemme know what you think.

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/perf/fuel.html

but is also goes on to say this

There are three different Turbo I part numbers because the style of the fuel injector and fuel rail changed in 1985 and again in 1988. They actually increased the fuel flow to the early Turbo II engines from 32 lbs/hr to 34.85 lbs/hr. This is equivalent to adding 10psi of fuel pressure! If you have to replace your early Turbo II injectors, you'll probably want an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to lean your mixture back out. While the computer can compensate for the richer mixture during normal throttle operations, the 1987 Turbo II logic module cannot compensate for the richer mixture during cold start and WOT. Later computers could, to some degree.

Right now I am running 58lbs of pressure... 3lb over stock. according to the above site my pressure is 13lbs to high. interesting

That is some good reading there. I like how they explain things clearly. And, i can see what they are driving at about running way too rich at cold, and WOT.
Seems a little odd, if you are not used to chrysler products, to think that the 803 - 804 injectors don't always work the way they are supposed to. On the other hand, if you are used to chrysler product, its not a huge surprise. :lol2:

Seriously though, although I am not sure that overfueling is the total cause, if it is running hugely rich at idle, it could be causing the contamination as the fuel leaks down past the rings.

And here is a stupid question again, how did you position your ring gaps when you rebuilt the engine?

Hmmm, its getting more clear by the minute. I am going to digest that article, and bat it around a little.

well I am used to chrysler products but not turbo products. What i think may be happening is that when the car is cold the rings are not fully expanded from the heat and the extra fuel may be getting past there or when at Wide Open Throttle the added boost pressure in the cylinders combined with the extra fuel is getting past the rings. And if this is the case, my rings may never seat because the fuel is basically washing away the rings not allowing a proper seating.

On the position of the piston rings top ring gap is opposite side of the second rings gap and the oil ring(s) gap is halfway between top and second rings gap (hopefully that is a clear explanation)

clear enough, thanks. I have seen a lot of people line the gaps up, so I thought I would check. It is a common problem.

I would not go for the heat and rings theory, unless the ring gap is big enough to drive a bus through. I would however go for gas leaking past the rings through the gaps. It does happen.
You are bang on with the washing problem though, it will eventually lead to dry cylinder walls, causing galling and scoring, and that is just uncool.

definitely go for adjusting your fuel pressure and see if that seems to stop the problem, if not, then back to the drawing board.

well got the fuel adjusted 13lbs lower and installed my manual boost controller. took it our for a drive and it seemed to have a bit more power. but on the way home the car just died. luckily i could coast into my driveway. tried to start it.... nothing its like the car doesnt have a battery in it. I tried a different battery out my other car and nope... headlights wont come on or when I turn the key over you cant hear the fuel pump kick on or anything electrical dont work...

I checked my grounds all is good there.

I guess its like they say if it aint one thing its the other.

Dude, you must know Murphy on a first name basis. In fact, he probably calls you.... collect.

somewhere in the car, there has to be a main power fuse. Try and find it, chances are it is hooped.

I know one of the guys here that races, had a similar shut down problem, but his was a smoked computer unit. I don't think it would be that drastic with yours. He was mating an older engine to a newer computer, in a mid year car, I think it was something about an 84 or 5 turbo engine, 86 car, 88 computer and harness, or something like that. total gong show.

I will dig in to his car tomorrow if I get a chance, and see what has been done there.

I took a computer out of a turbo Daytona and put it in my Turismo, works perfect. The car wouldn't start without one, and as soon as I plugged that thing in, it fired right up...

well fellers I think i found it. after claning the terminals and battery posts, i hooked the positive up and then went to hook the negative up and the negative started popping and arcing real bad. then I saw some smoke come up from under the intake... took my starter wires off and found this

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/396561/781031581-MVC-009F.JPG

Oh Yeah, you found it alright. so back to the original problem now.

Check your oil for cross contamination as usual. then if you can, put some miles on it under normal driving conditions, and see what happens.

well I cant drive it till I get a new one of those cables, unfortunately this is a dealer item only. i hooked the battery back up and everything worked, although I turned the ignition on and couldnt hear the fuel pump kick on. But I think these wires have to be hooked up for it to kick on though

I'm sorry to hear about all these problems. I'd be banging my head into the wall at this point. I guess it's all part of the hobby, though. Someday you'll be wasting those Mustangs, and everything will be better...

Actually there is a few holes in the wall LOL. Thats one reason I got this car is because I heard they can do it, but when I got it it really grew on me.

Chatterx,
Sorry I'm a little late finding your post but,

Your fuel pressure may still be too high. Watch out! Too much fuel and too little cam + 10lbs of boost...= crankcase explosion. Not a pretty sight. (Been there, picked up the pieces, walked home....:))

Your starter wires may not be your only trouble. Sounds like you blew a fuse link too (near the ECM in the wire harness).
You don't have to go to a dealer either for them, unless you want them molded together...

Your starter may be bad, too (shorted) check first!

Oh yeah. The magic number for me has been 40lbs, not 45. Reason is: running out of air (thusly running richer) at higher RPM. bad news for Turbos. I don't run anything close to stock setups anymore, but 40 was the safe rule when I played that game.
Try it, what could hurt?! :)

good luck,

Slantsixness

well good news on the starter situation is i got a cable from the junkyard (you should see this one i got, its WWWAAAAYYYY better made than my old one). hooked it up and the car fired right up. everything worked too.

Right now I am running 15lbs of boost. I will try turning it down to 40lbs if i am still getting gas in the oil after turning it down to 45lbs

I also purchased a set of stock injectors that came out of a 88 t2 motor. If turning it down to 40lbs does not help, these will be my last resort.

thanx for the suggestions and i will keep you all posted

well I changed the oil and turned my fuel pressure down to 40lbs static. Car ran fine, heck when I started it up it had about 75 - 80 lbs of pressure but gradually went down to 15 - 20 lbs after the car warmed up but after driving for about 10 miles when I would push in the clutch and the car would idle down to about 700 rpm and I would lose all oil pressure, On BOTH factory and mechanical guage. It seem like the oil is getting too hot for some reason, the car is not overheating whatsoever. Oil smells kinda funny, cant quite say its gas or burnt.

One question what is the purpose of that check valve looking thing your oil filter screws on?? and can they go bad, and if so would it cause low oil pressure problems??

Also when I shut the car off for about 5 - 10 minutes its like the top end loses its lubrication and has to reprime

at 2000 rpm I am getting 12.5 - 14 pounds of pressure when the car has been running for a bit

hmmmmmmmmmm, i just found this!!! notice the blockage on the outer outlet (fuel filter)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/396561/MVC-052F.JPG

How was the car even running like that?

i dunno, but that filter was only a year and half old if that. Hmmm maybe I wont need to put this other set of injectors i bought in now lol

well took her out for about a 20 mile drive this mornin, held about 30 - 35 lbs of oil pressure at 2,500 rpm and 12 lbs at idle, never lost oil pressure one bit.

pulled the oil cap off and took a whiff inside, very very very faint gas smell, but it smelled more like hot oil this time. Engine did not run as hot either. I believe the faint gas smell is from the oil that is held in the motor when engine is shut off. I should have pushed the anti drainback valve in to make sure all that oil was out.

HOWEVER damage has been done to the top end. I get the chatter in the top end now and it is louder around 2000 - 3000 rpm. Its not a knock because the noise has stopped on the number 1 side and is now around the #3 area. I am willing to bet I have a lifter that has not got sufficient oil in it.

sounds like spark knock.

what lifters?

Slantsixness