Anybody know much about the Buick Grand National? I heard about it from a Co-Worker, and am trying to find info on it. Apparently, it had like a turbocharged 4.3-liter 4 cylinder engine (which is absolutely tremendous for a 4 cylinder - its pistons may have been larger than those found on a 8.0-liter V10 Dodge Viper). Just curious.....

I'll try and post more info if I find any.

They were actually 3.8 V-6's. I have owned 3 of them, my current being a 1986. The best info can be found here: http://www.gnttype.org

Thanks for the link. It will be nice to read up on this car. I knew my friend's source information of turbocharged 4.3-liter 4 cylinder sounded too cool to be true!!

That has got to be the only worthwhile vehicle to ever bear that god-forsaken Buick badge . . .

Wait a minute . . . didn't they make up a badge for the Grand National? They best Buick ever made, and they knew better than to ruin it's fate with a Buick emblem . . . lol . . .

If I remember correctly anyway . . . :rolleyes:

Theres been loads of great classic Buicks.

like what . . .

I can't think of any . . . you must mean like 60's or 70's . . .

20s,30s,40s,50s,60s,70s. OK, most weren't performance cars but they're still great.

I'll find some and post in that other topic I just saw.

The Grand National is one of the car gods. Some of things can wheelstand wherever they go. Turbos are for imports only? Yeah right. It can destroy anything in its warpath with CHEAP modifications. CHEAP parts means MORE parts altogether on the car. MORE parts means more power for less money than many imports.

The Buick Grand National Ten Commandments:

-Thou shalt always stare at this car and listen to its powerplant when you pass by

-Thou shalt not transplant the '84+ LM9 EVER.

-Thou shalt never confuse the Grand National with the Regal T-Type

-Thou shalt at least once have driven the GNX

-Thou shalt not own a GNX in any color other than black (unless it you own more than one)

-Thou shalt never pose as a GNX, if not

-Thou shalt not steal.......a GNX emblem.......unless its a poser

-Thou shalt praise Garrett for their mastery

-Thou shalt stop believing all domestics are blown

-Thou shalt not road race a Grand National

:devil:

The GNX is GODDLY!!!

0-60 in 4.6 seconds... 276 (official) horsepower...faster than a vette.... FUCKIN AWESOME!!! (pardon my language, I just couldn't help it)

They only made 500 or so of these, but their owners are very lucky people.

Some other good buicks:
1) 55 century. 0-60 in 9.8 (1.5 secs quicker than the 55 chevy)
2) 70 GS 455 stage I. 0-60 in 5.5, 1/4 in 13.5 at 105.3mph. An awesome sleeper.

Those are just 2.

The GN and GNX are "in my eyes" the last of the muscle cars. They were sedans, family vehicles, turned into raging beasts. It shared its platform with the Olds 442 and the Monte Carlo SS, but neither could touch the precedent of the GN. From its turbo squeal to the lightning fast quarter miles, the GN reigned supreme.

Can someone post the complete specs for the Grand Nash and GNX?? I'm too lazy:(

I agree the GN's are awsome cars. While doe joe that said buick never made anything worth while other than the gn.........I guess he's never came up against a simi stock 455 before. With a couple of light mods.......these can put even the heaviest of cars into the 13's very easy. You have to realize the 70 stage1 was teh fasted muscle car built that year. It was also the heaviest as well as the lowest geared ( 3.64 ) was the highest gear ratio offered. That's preaty amazing and motor trend magazin will back it up. The also made the fast muscel car in 71 and 72. I happen to own one of 680 GS 455 built in 71. I just completed the frame off resto last year. The car is currently in this months issue of Car Carft. It's up for the "win your car in car craft contest" You can see other pictures of the car at www.streetheatcarclub.com. Let me know if you have any further questions about GS's or GN's. I'm fairly smart about both models of Buicks.

I mentioned that car (from MT aswell).
You should start a thread about your car, I would like to learn more about it. A really good sleeper, and it was in the 13's stock, wasnt it?? An excellent choice, you wont see yourself coming the other way very often.

Excuse me.....

What do you mean the only car worthy of the Buick badge?

There have been some fine Buick models:

Buick GS & GSX (Yes, in the early 70's)

But Buick is known for luxury cars, not performance cars. The Grand National and GNX were the exceptions.

Can anyone tell me which Buick from less than 15 years ago was a two-door, two-seater sports/luxury car?

(I know...I drive one)
http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/727152928fun.jpg

The Reatta.

Give Hudson a cigar...beer...whatever!

Now, I'm considering putting a turbo on my 3.8 like in the GN's. It's the updated the frontwheel drive transmission that concerns me. Nothing like shelling a transmission.

Grand Nationals were rear wheel drive...

Grand Nationals were rear-wheel drive and never produced more than 245hp (I'm not counting the GNX). Today's superchaged 3.8L V6 produces 240hp in front-wheel drive applications and Cadillacs routinely put out up to 300hp. The transmissions are available.

Yeah,

I knew that but I've got too many projects going. I'm putting my Porsche in the garage and starting a complete restoration/modification program. That should keep me out of trouble for another year or so.

The Reatta is my daily driver and it can wait. I want to fix a few little things that are going wrong and bring it back up to par too...with a mod or two under the hood.

Takes too much money to to everything at once and I like to get out my tools and do most of it myself. Might have to talk myself into buying and engine hoist this coming spring. Can't keep borrowing the neighbors all the time.

"3.8L V6 produces 240hp in front-wheel drive applications and Cadillacs routinely put out up to 300hp."

This is true but how much axle-twisting TQ do they produce? I think that is the concern here. The HP these modern engines produce is fine.

My gn produced 282.65 HP & 390.93 ft-lbs of Torque on a dyno this summer and that is with the only modifications being a stock size K&N in the stock housing and not cat.

I doubt if the FWD cars you mention are pumping 400 ft-pounds of TQ though their trannys and drive shafts.

Morpheus

You could order the 3.8 turbo drive train in any rear drive Buick Regal (T Types , too) in 1986 or 1987. There are some grandma looking cars (bench seats, column shifter, fake wire wheel hub caps, and landau roofs) that can rip off a 13 second quarters out there. They are also lighter than the GN's which had power everything and extra sound insulation material.

They didnt make any of these bad-boys with a manual tranny did they? It sure is a shame if they didnt.

Nope..no manuals in the turbo regals. Good thing too..it would slow them down. The 200r4 can shift quicker than any human can and there is no loss of power when you let off the gas to push in the clutch.

I don't know any TR owner who would put a manual trans in if they could.

I see. These cars just get better and better as I find more out about them.:D

I recently purchased a 1998 Buick GS with a Supercharged engine. It's like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Most people on the road wouldn't expect this car to be so fast. I know, I didn't. :eek:

When I bought it off the lot, the salesperson wasn't sure what the hsp was and I guessed it might be 200 hsp. When I did more research, I found out that it was 240hsp! For some of you guys that may not seem like a lot, but I'm a young lady and drive like Grandma, so it's over the top to me. Not that I'm complaining...mind you. :D

When I told my husband he was a little shocked. And then we had this discussion about whether my 1999 nissan maxima w/ 190 hsp (I no longer own it) was quicker than the GS w/ 240 hsp. The first time he drove the GS he said the Maxima was quicker, but today he drove it again (by himself, so he was able to floor it without me freaking out) and it seems he has changed his mind. He now thinks the GS might be faster. I'm not sure if he's totally convinced....

Does anyone know what the quarter mile time is for the GS supercharged engine? And do you think it's quicker than a 99 maxima?

Thanks!

From the web I have gathered the following:

Buick GS 0-60 = 6.6, 1/4 mile = 15.1

Maxima GXE 0-60 = 6.5, 1/4 mile = 15.0 I assume that is the Maxima you had as the SE is dog slow.

These figures were taken from http://car-stats.com/

I have raced a Buick GS at the track and it ran a very solid 15.1 so I think the numbers are right on.

The numbers for the Maxima were for a manual.

HTH

Rens,

Thanks for looking that up for me. I didn't know that website existed...

My 99 maxima was an SE with Auto Trans, so it must be slower than the manual GXE. I didn't know that SE's were considered to be dog slow. It seemed pretty fast to me, but it's not like I go out racing in different cars anyway. So I really don't have anything to compare, except for my Buick GS.

Though my husband did have a change of heart the other day while he was trying to pull out of some bad traffic. The GS is beginning to convince him that he was wrong about the maxima being faster. I think he's really starting to like the car.;)

Do you know anything about K&N air filters? Do they really add more hsp? And if they do, are they safe to use?

I'm thinking of doing a few custom exterior changes to my GS. Right now it still looks like grandpa's car, but the two tone does make it a little sportier looking. I'm definately going to add tint (I live in FL & tint does save the interior of cars), a sunroof visor, and maybe some cool pinstriping.

Thanks again!

LadyBuickGS, I use K&N filter on all my cars right down to the minivan we use for dog shows.

They will make it easier for the engine to get air into the combustion chambers and this can increase HP as well as mpg.

The thing to keep in mind is that with most stock engines there isn't that much HP to be had by just slapping in a free flowing filter.

Think of an engine as nothing more than a large air pump. Its sole purpose is to suck air in and push it out. The easier it can do this as the more it can get in the better it will perform.

If you are considering a K&N it won't hurt the engine and it will not void the warranty on the car. Just keep in mind if you have the stock exhaust on the car that is the other side of the air in-out process. You might want to look into an aftermarket exhaust to help that GS breath better.

The Maxima SE had 0-6 and 1/4 mille times much worse than the GS. Not bad compared to an SUV but not great compared to what I consider a performance car.

I like the GS a lot.

Check out Turbobuick.com and go to the 3800 supercharged Tech section. It is all devoted to your car.

Rens,

Thanks for the fast reply and all the useful information. There's a good chance I'll be getting the K&N filter, just to help out the engine a little bit. Plus w/ a supercharger anything that will save me on MPG will help.

I will definately consider the new exhaust, but it won't be for a few months until I can save up some money. The down payment sort of killed me.:eek:

I'll be sure to check out that site.

Thanks again!

Lady Buick

Despite the million mile warranty, you will need to cleant the K&N every so often and apply oil, or it wont work right. Its easy to do, though.
A Maxima with an auto did 0-60 in 8.5 or so seconds.

If you really want to learn more about cars, I suggest Car and Driver for the newbie. You will learn a lot, plus they have some really funny/entertaining things in it. Then I suggest Road and Track and Motor Trend. Try automobile, it is a different style.

Actually I have decent knowledge of autos... Compared to most gals! ;)

I had a subsciption to Car & Driver for about 4 years, then I changed to Road & track just for something different.

Plus I've worked in the auto industry for about 8 years. I'm not a complete newbie, but I've never had a performance engine such as the 3800 supercharged. Plus I've heard good things about K&N, so I wanted everyone's opinion here. The guys at the dealership tend to be anti-aftermarket, so I usually avoid asking them questions about it. :rolleyes:

0-60 in 8.5. That's kinda slow, especially compared to the new Maxima.
:)

Thanks for repsonding.

Yeah, dealers suck when it comes to that. They may try and say because something is aftermarket, it voids the warranty. Almost always, this is bull. (of course, if you replace the exhaust with a Borla piece, and it rusts (wont happen, they also have a million mile warranty), then the dealer wont fix it, obviously).
Also, some serious gains can be made by a chip on a blown engine, but it will suck more gas. And try and make it easy to put the stock one back in for warranty work (factory equipment won't understand the new chip, and they won't be able to find problems.)

http://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html

If you look around the site theres a lot of info to check out

Originally posted by LadyBuickGS
Rens,

Thanks for looking that up for me. I didn't know that website existed...

My 99 maxima was an SE with Auto Trans, so it must be slower than the manual GXE. I didn't know that SE's were considered to be dog slow. It seemed pretty fast to me, but it's not like I go out racing in different cars anyway. So I really don't have anything to compare, except for my Buick GS.

Though my husband did have a change of heart the other day while he was trying to pull out of some bad traffic. The GS is beginning to convince him that he was wrong about the maxima being faster. I think he's really starting to like the car.;)

Do you know anything about K&N air filters? Do they really add more hsp? And if they do, are they safe to use?

I'm thinking of doing a few custom exterior changes to my GS. Right now it still looks like grandpa's car, but the two tone does make it a little sportier looking. I'm definately going to add tint (I live in FL & tint does save the interior of cars), a sunroof visor, and maybe some cool pinstriping.

Thanks again!

What are you on?, getting a Buick Regal GS instead of driving your
Maxima? Auto Maximas are faster than 8.5 seconds to 60 too.
:cool:

:( :(

My dad owned one when I was about 6 years old....that is about 13 years ago. Black beauty she was. I didnt know what it was then, nor did I care much when my mom nearly totalled it and did 5 grand in damage. She had been crashed by the previous owner too we think since it rattled a lot and always had bolts falling out. Now I look back and wish we kept it :(

there are very few cars that can touch a GN. The GNX's where faster but due to the fact that 500 where made anyone that would modify one is commiting a sin i bought my GN a year ago and 800$ latter im running 12.68,12.70's in a full weight streetcar with air curise power locks and windows the stock GN was a 3.8 litre (231CID) turbocharged and intercooled v-6 there was no four cyl. or twin turbo v-8 or any of that crap all of them where 3.8l. also a very interesting point in 1989 the 20th annervisary trans am was powerd by the same turbocharged 3.8 that was in the GNX. it is the only car to pace the indy 500 with the only mod being a strobe light and a decal. They are the fastest trans am's that where to be produced (at least in the 1/4 mile) and for thoes that did'nt think that buick did'nt make a car worth while they apparenty did not hear about the GS 455 STAGE 1 cars or the GSX chevy's 454 chevelle could'nt hold a candle to it and there is a reason why they are called Hemi killers


Andy

That has got to be the only worthwhile vehicle to ever bear that god-forsaken Buick badge . . .

Wait a minute . . . didn't they make up a badge for the Grand National? They best Buick ever made, and they knew better than to ruin it's fate with a Buick emblem . . . lol . . .

If I remember correctly anyway . . . :rolleyes:


in the middle of the steering wheel is the three sheild's buick badge

They did put the Buick turbo badge on the GN's, like my avatar.

547 GNX's were built by ASC for sale to the public. Yes, you could get a plain jane, no option GN. Roll up windows, radio delete, no posi. Had to have A/C though, couldn't delete that.

I like the GN's. I'm a big time import guy and I still find the GN's interesting. They completely shoot the "no replacement for displacement" thing to shit. Damn cool cars...coolest things about them is how they sound. Gotta love the turbo whirrr and blow off. Only thing about them......have they never heard of aerodynamics? Why the HELL did they have to make them so boxy!? I think they're pretty much ugly as all hell, but then again...beauty is in the eye, right?

ulgy naaa there a thing of beauity. Ill admit that they don't look sporty and sleek and everything but you have to admit they look just all out I'm gonna tear you a new one a$$ kicker mean as hell. :evillol: oh and BTW they do not have blow off valves.

another thing [ss]' the turbo buick in your picture is not a Grand National. It is a turbo t limited. same moter and drivetrain, but diffrent trim package. The GN's where all black and had to hood ornimiant

Damn damn damn....I've only ever seen one before. The guy drove by me and I know I heard blowoff...must have had mods done.

yea some aftermarket intercoolers have a blow off valve in them. usually they don't. If they don't they usually make a real loud sputtering sound when the driver gets off the pedal. (if it does not have the stock air box. nice Z in your sig

Wow...a bov in the intercooler? That's different. Could you mean WITH the intercooler? Sounds kinda odd...but hey...can't know everything, right? Thank you very much for the compliment on the Z. I'm going to have to take it out...you're probably the 12th person to compliment it in the 6 or 7 days I've had it on there.....only problem is that it's not mine....it's just damn close to my mental image of the "perfect Z". In other words...it isn't mine, but it is what I would have. I kinda feel like I'm leading people on, though......feel kinda bad. :dunno:

just put "NOT MY CAR" under it

well a BOV on the tank of the intercooler. personally I think it looks better than a huge valve on top of your intake pipe

I assume you mean an air-water intercooler?

Nope air to air intercooler i ment the air tanks on the side. For the Gn's an air to liquid intercooler is the baddest setup you can have. My uncle has a 1989 turbo Trans Am and he has a liquid setup in his car and he have over 1,200 bucks in it. he circulates 40 lbs of ice water through it and it kicks ass but too much money. also I'm gonna figue that you are going to ask me about the Turbo Trans Am. In 1989 for the 20th anniv. pontiac borrowed the buick turbo v-6 and put it ina GTA body. same drive train as a GN but in a TA. ultimate sleeper car they ran 13.4 in the qtr. mile stock. Also it was the only v-6 Trans Am ever. they are extreemly nice. only 1555 where built they re the only production car to pace the indy 500 with the only modifacation being strobelights and an indy decal. There where 3 pace cars one is in indy museum,another is in the pontiac museum, and one was given to the winner of the indy 500 of that year. It was sold later on and is now in some guys collection. something like most where leather inteior and T-tops some where T-tops and cloth inteior and a rare few where hardtop cloth inteior. fast as hell.

I've actually heard of that TA. I think we might have even read the same webpage or something because you said basically what I read, verbatim. Figures that the fastest TA ever was a V6....should tell the V8 guys something......

Well ive told you all about th GN what makes the z fast ????
I don't know much about them


Andy

P.S love the comment about the v8 guys

I could be mean about this, since it's straying off-topic, but I'm interested in this story as well, so proceed.

Hypsi87.....you and I are going to get along great. You don't like V8's either. Good man.

tman2093...I assume you were interrested in the "why's the Z fast" conversation...
Also, What exactly does a moderator do? I'd like to become a moderator. Any openings, lemme know.

Anyway...about the Z. I should be the Z preacher. I had a 1986 300ZX 2+2 for over 3 years...best car ever. I love reading and learning and the Z of old days, recent, and present are often the topic, so I can tell ya lots about em.

The 350Z is a true piece of work...especially for a car that starts under $27,000. Part of being fast is having a good foundation...a good machine to work with. Some cars are pretty fast stock (the Z), some aren't but can be (civics), some never will be without MAJOR work (yugo), and some are pretty fast stock and can only get better....the Z. Potential is written all over this thing. The engine (the VQ) has been put in Ward's 10 Best engine list 9 years in a ROW (the list has only been in existance for 9 years...) and is the ONLY engine to do this. It is quite high tech. Drive by wire throttle (damn thing revs almost before you touch the pedal), coil on plug ignition (no distributor), Carbon fiber driveshaft....all this and more comes from the factory on EVERY trim level...whether it be the base model or the top of the line track model...same drive line on all of them. The engine pushes 287hp stock. That's a 3.5L V6. Not even a very large V6. Throw some forced induction in there and you can easily have 500hp without compromising daily drivability and the engine's reliability. It's pretty fast from the factory......but can be painfully fast with very little work. There's one guy on this board that has a twin turbo system on it and he's running 12.1something in the quarter on pretty low boost...on street tires. I don't even think it's intercooled, either. It's fast because it is a good, quality engine that can handle what ever you throw at it....much like the GN's engine. I've heard INSANE boost pressures being run on these things. That said...you should know first hand how a good engine is KEY to making a truely fast car.

As for the past Z line (96 back), they've always been quality, leading edge, reliable cars. The 96 is a very interesting car. The engine is essentially 2 I-3 engines put onto one crank shaft. Dual intakes, dual throttle bodies, each side's own bank of cylinders with it's own turbo and intercooler on the turbo model, and dual exhaust. The result is an engine that is VERY responsive. It has the coil on plug ignition as well. The car also had the S-HICAS all wheel steering system which is a true piece of work. Hell....my 1986 300ZX TALKED...if you didn't take the parking brake off all the way, left a door open while driving, left your lights on after the car's off, were low on gas....it told you....literally TOLD you....but it didn't have cup holders......go figure. Not the fastest thing in the world, nor did it have all that much potential, but it was fun to drive. The turbos were better.

Any questions, lemme know guys.

Z- A moderator is a member who has shown excellence above other members, and has the intelligence, maturity, and values to not abuse the power. There are two types of mods, regular, and global. regulars have mod power in one forum. Globals have power everywhere. I have the power to move threads, ban bad users,close threads, sticky/unsticky threads, edit other peoples posts(only when profane)and delete threads. I became a mod by asking Igor(the Admin) to send a moderator to the Buick section to clean up, because it was quite disorderly. He offered me the job, and I accepted. About a month ago, I was talking to Igor again, and complained about not being able to ban a spamming member, because i was a regular mod. So Igor promoted me to Global mod. I have power everywhere, but I only really go to the GM forums, so thats what it says in my sig. You need to be here for a while before any chance of mod-ship, don't say anything to get other members mad, and don's PM any mod asking, "Can i be a mod?" That kills your chances, right there. I hope you've enjoyed my long post, but hey, you asked!

PS- The Buick section today is much better than it was a year ago. I asked for the skylark, and rainier forums, I put all of the misplaced threads back in the proper forums, you see the keyless entry instructions on the top of every forum? I asked Flatrater to make them, before he was a mod. The Buick section today is much more active today than it was back then, maybe one reply avery other day, now 3-4 replies a day. We even have regulars now(hypsi, longlive thez, tman) I'm proud of what the Buick forum has become.

Very nice. I always wondered what you guys did. I figured it was something along those lines, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the info!

hmmmm sounds like a very nice platorm to start with. Reading the specs of them I could see that a turbo intercooler and varouis stuff like alky could make this car a real screamer. I bet it out handels the GN :smile: . Hotchkiss makes a full suspension kit for the GN that when installed the GN's handle much like a vette :smokin: . That suspension is on my christmas list. It's not that I hate v-8's, It's just hard to beat a turbo car. good gas mileage, cheap insurance (At least for me I pay 50 a month for full coverage.) you can make awesome horsepower and still remain streetable. and they sound cooler :sunglasse

They're an awesome platform. Check this (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=148566) out.

I don't think the GN handles as good as the Z, but I'm not sure. I think the Z looks better...that's for sure. That's just me, though. I love turbo sounds....nothing better then scaring the hell out of pedistrians with the blowoff valve.

I have to defend V8's if noone else will. Their is no replacement for displacement. The reason the turbo 3.8s are so fast is because they are one of, if not the biggest mass produced turbo motor in existance. Excluding Diesels of course. A modern 5.7 Camaro will have about the same performance, but as soon as you slap a turbo on there you'll walk the V6 turbo. Not that I'm baggin on the turbo Regals. I am looking for one because nothing else has the mileage and performance that they do. I think the WRX and the new GTO are probably the only other cars out there that provide room for people and luggage in a modern performance car.

The current W bodies haul people and cargo farly well. That is what they were designed for after all.

I have to defend V8's if noone else will. Their is no replacement for displacement. The reason the turbo 3.8s are so fast is because they are one of, if not the biggest mass produced turbo motor in existance. Excluding Diesels of course. A modern 5.7 Camaro will have about the same performance, but as soon as you slap a turbo on there you'll walk the V6 turbo. Not that I'm baggin on the turbo Regals. I am looking for one because nothing else has the mileage and performance that they do. I think the WRX and the new GTO are probably the only other cars out there that provide room for people and luggage in a modern performance car.

There is a replacement for displacement and that is boost. For every 14.7 lbs of boost you run you essentally double the cubic displacment of your engine. Factors that involve that are turbo eff. and intercooling

but as soon as you slap a turbo on there you'll walk the V6 turbo.

If I was worth 22 Mil. 6'6", and could play basketball I would be Jordan. :wink: Just playin with you man. But honestly you could not turbocharge an LS1 properly and get the same performance out of it for the money. What would cost me 1k would cost you 10k+ (assuming you are wanting to run the same boost levels as a turbo v-6. Also the turbo 6 will always bee more streetable than any high performance v-8 I know of a high 9 second GN with a stock block and he still gets 19 MPG. You have varible horsepower and varible compression.

There is a replacement for displacement and that is boost. For every 14.7 lbs of boost you run you essentally double the cubic displacment of your engine. Factors that involve that are turbo eff. and intercooling

If I was worth 22 Mil. 6'6", and could play basketball I would be Jordan. :wink: Just playin with you man. But honestly you could not turbocharge an LS1 properly and get the same performance out of it for the money. What would cost me 1k would cost you 10k+ (assuming you are wanting to run the same boost levels as a turbo v-6. Also the turbo 6 will always bee more streetable than any high performance v-8 I know of a high 9 second GN with a stock block and he still gets 19 MPG. You have varible horsepower and varible compression.

Right, so how much horsepower can you get out of a turbocharged 2.2L 4 cyl compared to a turbo 3.8 V6? The bigger the motor, the more power you will make.


Their is a kit to supercharge an LS1 for $3000 and bumps the HP from 315 to 470. With Intake and exhaust work thats a pretty easy 500 hp. When you say streetable I hope you are just talking about economy, because everyone knows that a bigger engine will be more streetable than a smaller engine with the same mods. I.E. A huge cam in a 283 is a tiny cam in a 454.

I still want a TR because it is the only RWD performance car that runs like a Camaro, has room for people, and gets decent mpg. But the king of performance will always be the V8.

10K was assuming you wanted to run the same boost as a turbo buick. To do that would be alot of internal work. Don't get me wrong I love the v-8 engine. they are just too expensive compared to a TR to get the power out of and as far as streetable with a high performance v-8 you are talking about a constant high compression engine which means 93 or more octane. If I wanted to I could turn my boost down to like 7 PSI and run 87 the performance is varible. I guess in my eyes economy is what makes a street car and how much it costs to get horsepower out of something. 3k is alot for 470 HP. I hope you don't think im trying to rip on you or anything i'm not trying to piss people off here just strike up some decent conversation.

Later

Andy

yeah, its all understood, conversation with a series of well thought out arguments, not personal attacks.

My only reply is that its cheap to build a turbo buick if you are one of the lucky ones who owns one. Is their any kit to install a turbo 3.8 into another car, or non-turbo Regal? I figure if you want one you need to get an original one because of all the sensors. Is the 3.8 in the turbos models unique?

What is the stock compression for a turbo Buick? I didn't know that you could turn down the boost. I tried running 87 in my turbo volvo, figuring the knock sensor would adjust the timing for me. I was wrong, it has 8.8:1 compression and I soon blew out the knock sensor. I took me a while to figure out why I had no power below 4500rpm! Luckily the part only cost $32. My volvo runs 11 psi stock. I have a T in the pressure line that tricks the computer into letting me have about 15 psi. Its fun, but more DISPLACEMENT would be more fun. ;)

yeah, its all understood, conversation with a series of well thought out arguments, not personal attacks.

My only reply is that its cheap to build a turbo buick if you are one of the lucky ones who owns one. Is their any kit to install a turbo 3.8 into another car, or non-turbo Regal? I figure if you want one you need to get an original one because of all the sensors. Is the 3.8 in the turbos models unique?

What is the stock compression for a turbo Buick? I didn't know that you could turn down the boost. I tried running 87 in my turbo volvo, figuring the knock sensor would adjust the timing for me. I was wrong, it has 8.8:1 compression and I soon blew out the knock sensor. I took me a while to figure out why I had no power below 4500rpm! Luckily the part only cost $32. My volvo runs 11 psi stock. I have a T in the pressure line that tricks the computer into letting me have about 15 psi. Its fun, but more DISPLACEMENT would be more fun. ;)


If you can find a turbo block it will fit anywhere there is room. I know people who have one in a feiro,second gen RX7 and even a 2003 caddy cts(check out my new thread for video of the CTS.) The only two differences between the NA 3.8 and the turbo 3.8 that I know of is the turbo block has different pistions and a little more nickel content in the block. and the turbo is an SFI car with distribuitorless ingnition compared to the carbed. 3.8. The compresion is 8.0 to 1. As for turning down the boost I can do that because I have an external waste gate. my boost is controllable from inside the car. But that is a standard bolt on when you modify one

All turbo and non-turbo blocks are the same 109 casting. The only thing a turbo block has that a non-turbo doesn't is a drain back line from the turbo. Just have your machine shop drill and tap it for you. :)

What about all the electronics? Turbo motors tend to run hotter and if I buy a TR chances are I will need to replace the engine wiring harness a few years down the road.
I already replaced the harness on my Volvo. It cost me $1000 to have a mechanic do it. I don't think I could have done it myself. Does GM still sell a harness for the TR's?

my GN runs at 160 no matter what hot cold A/C on or off. I have never herd of having to replace the wireing harness because of heat. But a company called caspers electronics does make the harness

yeah, the turbo puts off a lot of heat. I guess i should have clarified. The engine compartment is a lot hotter in turbo cars. My experience with GM electrical systems is that some are great and some are horrible. It sounds like the regal is pretty good if you haven't had any trouble yet.

oh ok I get it now. sorry

Whats the thermostaat usually set for on turbo cars? Does it allow them to run hotter, or right around 195?

Stock GN's run 190-220 range. Only need to replace the harness if you cut it or break the injector clips. :)

about the camaro's: another thing to worry about, is the stuff that you'll start to break once you start modding the car. I'm kinda tired right now so my memory is gone but i think someone mentioned that the GN drivetrain is extremely tuff.


BTW, I'm new here so i'm gonna go post a newbie thread.

The GN drivetrain will put you into the 9's-10's with the properly built tranny. Might be a good idea to install aftermarket posi and axles when you start going that fast, though.

Posi don't need posi. 1.7 60' without posi.......just kiddin I want posi bad!!!!!! anyone know where a nice posi unit is????? I think at like 11.30 sec or something you need c-clip elimanators. I'm not shure though I need to dig up the good ole rulebook.

I dunno......maybe a stupid question....what's a c-clip eliminator? I no newbie to cars or the mechanics of them, but I've never heard of that.

I'm in the same boat as you, but I think it has to do with the way the springs are attatched to the differential.

c-clips are what hold the axles together in the housing. they break alot. they are why GM axles suck

Sweet.....I'm not alone.

Thanks for the reply. Now I know.

yea if your ever at the track and you see a GM car go one way and the wheel and axle go another then you know the c-clip broke

That would be kinda funny looking....like....wait....that's not supposed to do that....

Axles on the GN don't break very often. I have made 10 sec passes on stock axles, stock rear end for that matter. One of the best cars I have ever owned.

Axles on the GN don't break very often. I have made 10 sec passes on stock axles, stock rear end for that matter. One of the best cars I have ever owned.


I know I was talking about all other GM axles...... Why GM can't learn from this i don't know. 10 sec buicks are cool. What do you have done to your car??

On my first buick, I had the whole motor redone. It was a factory short block degreased with stock internals, roller cam, stock heads ported, exhaust, fuel pump, intercooler, all little supporting items, and I think a Garrett 62 turbo. This car ran 10.69 @124 driving to and from the track. My second with a Stage 2 272" ran 9.83 @ 137, didn't drive this one to the track but it was perfectly streetable except for the slicks. Both cars used the stock computer, no DFI.

sweet. Have you ever been to bowling green for the Nats.

I have been to Bowling Green about 3 times, thinking between the years of 98-2001. Haven't been there as of late. It is a great show, have you been there? When I am there, I usually was around Red Armstrong, the guru from Ohio. Been out of the seen for a while, thinking about getting back in. Went to Englishtown too, Buick Mustang shootout. Do you venture out to any events?

Check the new issue of GMHTP (GM High Tech Performance) Cal Hartline runs 8.50, yes 8's, in his street driven GN with the STOCK rear end! These cars kick a$$! I feel very lucky to own mine. :grinno:

Grand Nationals were rear-wheel drive and never produced more than 245hp (I'm not counting the GNX). Today's superchaged 3.8L V6 produces 240hp in front-wheel drive applications and Cadillacs routinely put out up to 300hp. The transmissions are available.
The 245hp was what Buick ADMITTED. They had to get it past Turbo Hydramatic or else they would have a car with no transmission. The 245 figure was achieved at 4400 rpm. The heads continued to breath up to 5400 or so. Car and Driver estimated about 290 in their April 1986 issue based upon its performance in the 1/4 mile.

Morpheus

You could order the 3.8 turbo drive train in any rear drive Buick Regal (T Types , too) in 1986 or 1987. There are some grandma looking cars (bench seats, column shifter, fake wire wheel hub caps, and landau roofs) that can rip off a 13 second quarters out there. They are also lighter than the GN's which had power everything and extra sound insulation material.
Not to mention Red Armstrong's wife's (Jane) car. It does mid to low 10's with the Limited package (including landau roof). No, it's not stock ;^).

also I'm gonna figue that you are going to ask me about the Turbo Trans Am. In 1989 for the 20th anniv. pontiac borrowed the buick turbo v-6 and put it ina GTA body. same drive train as a GN but in a TA.
Actually, the TTA had the heads from the 3800 Buick engine (different from the 3.8 in the Turbo Buicks.) The engine bay was too thin for the 3.8 heads. The new heads bumped the compression a bit. Also, the TTA had a cross-drilled crank from the factory.

Actually, the TTA had the heads from the 3800 Buick engine (different from the 3.8 in the Turbo Buicks.) The engine bay was too thin for the 3.8 heads. The new heads bumped the compression a bit. Also, the TTA had a cross-drilled crank from the factory.

I mentioned tha somewhere in this thread. I think if not my bad... My uncle has a TTA bad ass cars. Probabaly the only 3rd gen f-body I would own

Anyone know where I can get a Grand National engine (pref 1984-87) these days? Anywhere near San Antonio?

Thanks!

-KuzmaEagle@aol.com

I have just discovered the Grand National, and I must say that it has turned into my dream car! I have been looking into them, and was wondering about their reliability. I'm certainly not affraid to put some work into a car, but I don't want to get in over my head with problems (i.e. transmission, drivetrain etc...). Any information would be great.

I have just discovered the Grand National, and I must say that it has turned into my dream car! I have been looking into them, and was wondering about their reliability. I'm certainly not affraid to put some work into a car, but I don't want to get in over my head with problems (i.e. transmission, drivetrain etc...). Any information would be great.


The number one most certian thing you can do to keep a turbo buick realiable is to get a scanmaster or something to watch or knock retard. Keeping spark knock to a minimal is the key. As far as I'm conserned the weakest link in the car is the Tranny. Probabally the best thing to do for that (besides getting a beefed up 200r4 is to put a trans. cooler on the car.

Keep the kock out and run good fuel and you should be good to go.

Anyone know where I can get a Grand National engine (pref 1984-87) these days? Anywhere near San Antonio?

Thanks!

-KuzmaEagle@aol.com
Check out the GNT-type website, www.gnttype.org. They have a section called that has wanted and for sale items.
Jeff

i have a 87 TurboT with bolt-ons and i ran 12.22@108 w/stock turbo set at 19psi. i have a Ta-49 now and i will be expecting 11.50's@116-118mph. and my car weighs about 3700lbs. w/ me in it.

Cody

i have a 87 TurboT with bolt-ons and i ran 12.22@108 w/stock turbo set at 19psi. i have a Ta-49 now and i will be expecting 11.50's@116-118mph. and my car weighs about 3700lbs. w/ me in it.

Cody


What made you go with the Ta turbo instead of the Te series?

i have a 87 TurboT with bolt-ons and i ran 12.22@108 w/stock turbo set at 19psi. i have a Ta-49 now and i will be expecting 11.50's@116-118mph. and my car weighs about 3700lbs. w/ me in it.

Cody
Have you upgraded the fuel system? What pump(s) are you running?
Jeff

the Ta-49 works very well with the stock converter and the spoolup is amazing.and it's more than enough turbo to get me to mid 11's.and i have a bosch AFPR,Blue Tops,Red Armstong Pump hotwired.

Cody

the Ta-49 works very well with the stock converter and the spoolup is amazing.and it's more than enough turbo to get me to mid 11's.and i have a bosch AFPR,Blue Tops,Red Armstong Pump hotwired.

Cody


I went with the TE-44 before I bought my TE-60. Now im looking at getting a Te-63. A big shaft turbo is not really affected by compressor surge.

the Ta-49 works very well with the stock converter and the spoolup is amazing.and it's more than enough turbo to get me to mid 11's.and i have a bosch AFPR,Blue Tops,Red Armstong Pump hotwired.

Cody
It sounds like a good combination. The Blue Tops should be enough to get you into the mid 11's, but you may want to run an EGT just in case. We have a club meeting Sunday and I'll ask the TA-49 guys what they're running for mid 11's. My MSD 50's petered out at 11.04, but I was running a single Wabro 307 and exceeded 43 psi fuel pressure.

It sounds like a good combination. The Blue Tops should be enough to get you into the mid 11's, but you may want to run an EGT just in case. We have a club meeting Sunday and I'll ask the TA-49 guys what they're running for mid 11's. My MSD 50's petered out at 11.04, but I was running a single Wabro 307 and exceeded 43 psi fuel pressure.

I run a single walbro 340 hotwired with like 33 PSI line off pressure. My O2's are 774's range.

All turbo and non-turbo blocks are the same 109 casting. The only thing a turbo block has that a non-turbo doesn't is a drain back line from the turbo. Just have your machine shop drill and tap it for you. :)

Hey, Did you guys know that the 86- 87 blocks had larger oiling passages? just thought that might help find a core, oh, and don't put that motor in front of a standard 200r4 or you'll be walking home sooner than later.

yea if your ever at the track and you see a GM car go one way and the wheel and axle go another then you know the c-clip broke
I haven't seen the clips break, usually it is the end of tha axle, and the eliminator is a bearing and retainer set that presses on the axle and bolts to the housing, which holds the axle in the housing, sounds good to me, as I personally would be upset if I had an axle break at 100mph.. sounds like a pretty bad day to me. It really should have been factory, shouldn't it?

I personally would be upset if I had an axle break at 100mph.. sounds like a pretty bad day to me. It really should have been factory, shouldn't it?
As bad as that is, one of our club members broke a driveshaft at the big end BEHIND the loop. Needless to say, I'm running two driveshaft loops on my car.
Jeff

As bad as that is, one of our club members broke a driveshaft at the big end BEHIND the loop. Needless to say, I'm running two driveshaft loops on my car.
Jeff
I bet that was a pretty bad day, Huh? were you there when they did? and the real question is, Did he vault it and were they ok?
How about a 10 point driveshaft cage? 1-1/2 chromemoly tube with a nice shiny chrome plating.. don't know about the cage, but the chrome is worth .2 in the 1/4! : :biggrin:

I bet that was a pretty bad day, Huh? were you there when they did? and the real question is, Did he vault it and were they ok?
How about a 10 point driveshaft cage? 1-1/2 chromemoly tube with a nice shiny chrome plating.. don't know about the cage, but the chrome is worth .2 in the 1/4! : :biggrin:
I was there when it happened. I couldn't see anything from the stands. He ALMOST vaulted the car, but it fortunately it didn't. It DID dig a trench in the dragstrip and took out the lights for about 45 minutes.
As far as the driveshaft cage, please keep this quiet. You can bet your a$$ we'll be seeing them on Hondas and Toyotas (even the FWD ones).:rofl:
Jeff

thats really a great idea, you can bet those rice burners will try to steal it!!

Big Black L1 with a RoadMaster wrapped @ it!