:mad: :eek: anyone form Pontiac..........If youre still alive. Bring out the GTO concept. I loved it.I know more that did too.

Hey tyhel

got any pics of the concept? Any specs?

GUYS!!! Go to motortrend.com, I just wet myself :licker: the GTO is coming as a 2004 model! Its basically the HSV monaro!!! yes!

http://motortrend.com/feb02/gto/GTO.jpg

I'm a lazy slug but do you have any stats for the car? FWD or RWD? V6 or V8?

:D It is RWD and has a friggin' LS1 eh? uh huh.......its quite quick. looks like they screwed with it a bit and they should have left it. go to www.hsv.com.au to see it all in all its glory.I think this should be the new mustang killer!!!!!!!!

I think I made a mess of my pants!

The Ultimate HSV - 300kW of Callaway-enhanced 5.7 litre V8, 510Nm of torque, a close-ratio 6-speed manual only gearbox with shift light and buzzer - in a word awesome. Exclusive HSV 6-piston front and 4-piston rear calipers, Grooved and Cross-Drilled 362mm front and 343mm rear discs, developed in conjunction with AP Racing (of HRT fame) - unmatched stopping power.

Ummmm wheres the waiting list????

Also according to MotorTrend blurb the prices are decent
S/C v6 : $24,000
v8: $28,500

Holden
http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/382030Holden.jpg


EDIT: It just dawned upon me: Monaro = Camaro

By god I think you have it!!!!!! I have liked the HSVs for a bit now. It would be sweet to see these smaller cars in every way except in the engine comparrtment, burn a mustang..............welcome to the sweetness boys and girls.:bandit: oh yeah..........I can already smell the sweet smoke:devil: bring it on.......:D :sun:

OT

I've always been interested in the GTS-R. Imagine it an M5 fighter for alot less money :eek:

Actually we have the chasis here in the states aka Catera. BUT it only comes with a v6 and an auto tranny :mad:

http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/340269gts2000.jpg

Back to the GTO:

I was considering the new Nissan 350Z but now I gotta wait and see what the General bringeth! :D

I hope you folks didn't soil your pants over that little piece of Photoshop, did you? Holdens are RUMORED to be coming to the US and no matter what you read in Motor Trend, I highly doubt they could get them here by the 2004 model year. They would have to redesign the vehicle first. Secondly, GM is always on thin ice with North American unions to begin with, and the unions will just sit back and watch as GM closes plants (the Camaro/Firebird plant for one) and imports a car from Australia? Don't count on it.

Yes, true, but I also don't think you should automatically rule out the idea that it is possible and it could happen.

For another report on USA imports of Holdens try here (www.goauto.com.au)

:D :D :D :D :p :p I think that says it all.........ITS COMING TO THE US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GM Chairman Bob Lutz has just confirmed the Monaro will be released in 2003 as a 2004 model Pontiac GTO, calling it "an instant cult classic"

Debut is either the 2003 Los Angeles or New York motor shows. Up to 20,000 will be imported, with the possibility that "other models" - read the Ute - may follow.

Contrary to this (http://www.autoweek.com) report though, Monaro is NOT built by "a special division" of Holden (eg: HSV)

HSV modifies existing Holdens (I think about 5,000 units last year) including sedans, LWB, the ute as well as the new coupe, and to be involved would need to find an additional 400% capacity - in one year. Hardly realistic

Hope they tweak up the styling of this roomy 4 seater for you guys (it's a bit plain for my eyes although very smooth) and that it does good for Pontiac, Holden .. and GM

I gotta say, this new GTO is gonna be sweet. I just recently have begun researching Holden Cars, and I'm loving the horsepower and RWD that I'm seeing. I just don't understand why Australia gets all of these sweet cars and we are just now getting a taste of this GM affiliate. As far as I'm concerned, they have got a better line of cars than any of the other GM brands. Let's hope this recent interest in the Monaro/GTO and possibly the Ute is a sign of what is to come.

Sorry, just one more thing. I just gotta say that, while I am happy about the new GTO, I am going to have a hard time getting over the loss of the Trans Am (one of the most beautiful sports cars ever made) and that great f-body design. If only Pontiac could keep that along with with the incoming GTO.

quote:
.. and that great F-body design

We've watched from afar at F-body sales, I believe now down into the thirty-thousand region or lower. Despite terrific styling, performance, prices/value and the novel plastic-panel construction they've withered on the vine. Why has the marketplace become so blase about such a stellar bargain? Have buyer aspirations shifted to trucks & rice, or been forced by insurance dramas?

I've read elsewhere (dunno if it's true) that F-body insurance can be three times more than a WRX for example - if so that's interesting, because over here the complete opposite is true: Insurance rates for new LS-1 Holden's are quite modest, starting from low A$1k's or so (depending on model) while even a 5 year old WRX can require A$4k and more, or even be uninsurable.

On another note, I often wonder why GM's 'halo' cars .. their image flagships .. eg: Cadillac, Corvette, even F-body .. weren't and aren't sold and promoted worldwide through their various overseas divisions? I'm led to believe that the above aren't manufactured in right-hand-drive form, even for the UK, Japan etc.

BMW deems its US-built Z3 range important enough to be produced and sold in R/H/D - even modifying them further for our market's unique local registration requirements - but not GM. The Japs bother to for minor niche models like the upcoming RX-8, also the obscure French marques. If slow-selling Lexus (a rebadged Toyota, after all), Alfa Romeo, Saab & Porche (who have sold here for almost 50 years) can turn a profit .. even Maserati (!) .. why doesn't GM bother enhancing it's local offerings and image through select, emotive, US-built models via the well known 'tricke-down' effect of sales?

forgive the rave .. i'm just musing :)

Hmm.. 2004, just about the time I will be ready for a new car.. A 2004 Gto will look good next to my '69.. What color for the new car? Carousel Red, of course (Orange). It's gotta match...

Originally posted by Rubberduck83
Sorry, just one more thing. I just gotta say that, while I am happy about the new GTO, I am going to have a hard time getting over the loss of the Trans Am (one of the most beautiful sports cars ever made) and that great f-body design. If only Pontiac could keep that along with with the incoming GTO.

Obviously, you've never driven one for any lenghth of time. I assure you that despite the awesome horsepower there was little to love about the last F-body cars. They rode like crap, made you sit in awkward positions of you were over 6', had NO room inside, had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway that got really old quickly, had horrible seats, the build quality still sucked, and the paint on my 1999 model turned to crap even with meticulous maintenance. GOOD BYE JUNK!!
I hope the GTO does come here, and is good enough in quality too lure me back to GM because I had sworn them off after the T/A and Alero I bought in '99. More crap will not cut it!!

:D its been signed, put in stone (and the new June motor trend magazine) that the "GTO is a Go" awsome! these things are beasts from the look of 'em.

Honestly, I would rather have had the GTO concept from a couple years ago, you know, the twin turbo 3400 TDC AWD Grand Prix? The Grand Prix looks nice. While I'm overjoyed we're getting the GTO, and that it is a roomy powerful car, it looks like it has been in the oven a little too long, if you know what I mean.

This car was just awesome, and it used off the shelf parts. They rolled out the G8 concept, an AWD LS1 Grand Prix, in '96 I think, but didn't build it. However, they brought it out again for 2002, so maybe...
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/editorial/concept/grandprix/media/pontiac.grandprix.front.350.jpg
http://www.commondriver.com/images/cdpics/carsforweb/c02pog8011402.jpg
http://209.242.38.34/images/full/2001/s01020907/pn2001g801.jpg
http://www.pontiacpower.net/pictures/g801f.jpg
http://www.pontiacpower.net/pictures/g801l.jpg

Obviously, you've never driven one for any lenghth of time. I assure you that despite the awesome horsepower there was little to love about the last F-body cars. They rode like crap, made you sit in awkward positions of you were over 6', had NO room inside, had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway that got really old quickly, had horrible seats, the build quality still sucked, and the paint on my 1999 model turned to crap even with meticulous maintenance. GOOD BYE JUNK!!
I hope the GTO does come here, and is good enough in quality too lure me back to GM because I had sworn them off after the T/A and Alero I bought in '99. More crap will not cut it!!



Well,anycar thats not a luxury car rides like crap.What did you meen by"had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway"?If it meens what I think it does,the exaust sound sounds great.It never got old on my dads '83 Firebird.I sat in a 2002 Trans Am and the seats felt like those of a luxury car.And when you said the biuld quality sucked,did you take the car apart and inspect it.When I test drove one,the were no raddles.There was wind noise but like I said,its no Lincoln or Cadillac.And maybe its just yor Firebird were the paint went bad,maybe it was just yor,or a bad polish or wax.The F-bodys were super nice and good cars,well,all GMs are good cars.I wish they didnt stop making the F-body.But Im also glad they did because I here there going to bring them back in about 5 or 6 years and I would like to see what there going to be like when they do come back.

Originally posted by CopperHed210
Well,anycar thats not a luxury car rides like crap.What did you meen by"had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway"?If it meens what I think it does,the exaust sound sounds great.It never got old on my dads '83 Firebird.
I like a forceful exaust note, but I hate a car that amplifies it through the interior. I also own a 1989 Camaro that has a Borla exaust piping over 500 hp that is a much more pleasant sound.
I sat in a 2002 Trans Am and the seats felt like those of a luxury car."Sitting-in" and driving-in for 3 years is completely different. The seat comfort degraded very quickly
And when you said the build quality sucked, did you take the car apart and inspect it. When I test drove one,the were no raddles.
Once again, "test-drives" and driving one for 3 years is completely different. I did inspect it pretty thoroughly (without disassembly) and found partially tightened bolts, missing screws, out-of-alignment panels, and loose wiring.
There was wind noise but like I said,its no Lincoln or Cadillac.And maybe its just yor Firebird were the paint went bad,maybe it was just yor,or a bad polish or wax.
Wind noise was the least of this cars problems! The paint had dust in it, uneven color depth between panels, and thin spots around the lights.
The F-bodys were super nice and good cars,well,all GMs are good cars.I guarantee I've owned more F-bodies than you or most anyone on this board, as well as other GM cars. Including the F-bodys, I've bought 7 new GM cars over the last 10 years. Over that span of time the materials have gotten worse, the build-quality hasn't improved, and neither has the engineering. Drive a 2003 N-body (Grand Am, Alero, Malibu) and it feels just like a 1983 Cavalier with stiffer suspension.
I wish they didnt stop making the F-body.But Im also glad they did because I here there going to bring them back in about 5 or 6 years and I would like to see what there going to be like when they do come back. I hope they do get their act together and put out a great car! BUT, it will take a dynamic change in the way GM builds cars and maybe Lutz is the man to do it. The F-body needed to dye, it had become a joke......
:(

It sounds the Firebird you had was restored or something because. No GM comes from the factory brand new with loose bolts and missings screws.Infact probably no car does.

It sounds the Firebird you had was restored or something because. No GM comes from the factory brand new with loose bolts and missings screws.Infact probably no car does.Except maybe a Ford.

Originally posted by CopperHed210
It sounds the Firebird you had was restored or something because no GM comes from the factory brand new with loose bolts and missing screws. In fact probably no car does, except maybe a Ford.

Wanna bet?! The 1999 Trans Am WS-6 I had was purchased brand-new by me 1/4/99 with 6 miles on it. The 1999 Alero GLS I had was also purchased brand-new by me 5/28/99 with 3 miles on it. The T/A had 2 loose bolts on the passenger-side door hinges (found within a week from purchase after noticing some clunking when going over bumps), and the lower dash facia was only held on by 2 of the 4 screws it was meant to have. The Alero also was missing a bolt on the seat-back adjuster, had loose bolts on the radiator fan shroud assembly, and had one of the caliper bracket bolts so overly tightened it stripped the thread when the dealer had to replace the rotors (1st of 5 sets in 20K miles). Do you want to go into the RUST that appeared from under the quarter window about a month after buying this turd?! If you love GM cars, by all means buy GM cars. Me? I have had enough kicks to the back-side from GM, the Alero being the last one. They will really have to impress me with quality and superior engineering to win me back, price is their only ammo right now. You truly do get what you pay for when it comes to cars, that is why the domestics always will have rebates!
BTW - When did you last purchase a new GM car??

hmm,thats strange.I guess anything can happen.That loose bolt and missing screw thing never happened with any of our 5 new GMs.We bought a Pontiac Grand Am brand new and that has 219k miles on it and its still going with no problems.We had a Boneville that went to 267k miles before it started haveing problems.

Originally posted by CopperHed210
hmm,thats strange.I guess anything can happen.That loose bolt and missing screw thing never happened with any of our 5 new GMs.We bought a Pontiac Grand Am brand new and that has 219k miles on it and its still going with no problems.We had a Boneville that went to 267k miles before it started haveing problems.
Those must have been older GM cars, like the '89 Camaro I bought new and still have. The real problems started in 1991 when GM's head of purchasing was Al Penia and he demanded double-digit cost-cutting from all of GM's suppliers. Well, he got it! The suppliers have been forced to cheapen their parts to the point where it really does show. The brake rotors on GM cars used to be robust and generally considered the best in the business. Now, thanks to the suppliers getting squeezed, GM rotors have a reputation for warpage and brake fade. The newer rotors have much, much more iron in them and they actually rust enough to weaken the rotor face within months. GM's warranty return rate on brakes is the highest in the industry! N, G, and B-body cars suffer the worst from this.
I take no pleasure in bashing GM at all and truly do hope they can "turn the ship around" as I was born and raised a GM guy. This VW is the 1st non-GM car I've ever owned. If my GM remarks sound harsh it's because of expectations that I had for my favorite cars, and the reality smack I got in return.

Actually, the Grand Am we have is a 1995 and the Boneville was a 1994

Stop drooling over the HSV pics. You're getting the holden monaro, not the HSV. Which means no body kit and 225kw, not 300kw. Althought it might get increased.

Actually, that body package is alot more appealing to me than the HSV car. I don't care for the aero-do-dads and like a smoother, tighter look. The HSV, like most cars with "aero-packages", looks dis-jointed to me. And if it has a basic LS1 thats OK too! There are plenty of go-fast parts available for those engines here!
BTW - Being an Australian, could you comment on the reliability reputation these cars have? Any problem areas?

Well mechanically speaking, there have been no problems at all as far as I'm aware. When the VT was first released, there were some issues with build quality. but you would expect a few teething problems to start with. (Totally new model!)

And the build quality issues have been well and truly fixed. This is a big chance for Holden to get high numbers of exports going, so I'm pretty sure that they will take extra care in making sure that nothing will go wrong with the U.S bound cars.

Originally posted by Murco
Actually, that body package is alot more appealing to me than the HSV car. I don't care for the aero-do-dads and like a smoother, tighter look. The HSV, like most cars with "aero-packages", looks dis-jointed to me. And if it has a basic LS1 thats OK too! There are plenty of go-fast parts available for those engines here!
Yep, the cleaner the better in my view. Aero often ends up looking like tits on a bull - superfluous and a touch ridiculous. For mention there's heaps of high-quality locally made mods available too, including excellent brake & suspension upgrades (btw currently at US53 cents to the A$)
BTW - Being an Australian, could you comment on the reliability reputation these cars have? Any problem areas?
Murco I've followed your informative & well-written posts - thanks for sharing your views. By way of recompense (and because I'm bored off my brain today) may I tender my overview of Holden?

Holden began from a Blacksmith's shop in the 1800's, evolving through making carts and then on to high quality car bodies for imported chassis of various manufacturers. Of note they innovated the 1st all steel roof pressing, or 'turret top' as Holden dubbed it (no fabric insert) in 1934/5? Along with German Opel, GM purchased Holden for a song in the Depression. After WW2 when America nobly saved our arse from Nippon, Australia decided it really did need a manufacturing base, and thus with GM expertise (and copious Aust. Govt. funding) in 1948 our national car the Holden was born.

Prior to The Big One (WW2) our choices were European (eg: more pre-war Lancias currently exist here than in all the rest of the world combined), dour underpowered unreliable English models, and American cars which although superior to UK units were expensive here, both to purchase and fuel. Holden changed all that. It's unusually light 'Aerobuilt' monocoque and good power-to-weight in a compact package gave it the economy and handling of a British car & the torquey performance & reliability of a US one, and quickly there was a seven year waiting list! A bit like the later Aero Willys if you remember them. So with one basic model (and a fair slice of Govt import protection) Holden soon owned over 50% of the market and became a cash-cow for GM-US.

Along with their success formula of a good-performing yet affordable and cheap to run unit was a reputation earned of reliability & durability crucial for our long travelling distances and shocking roads. Back then Chevs & Plymouths were slow ponderous creatures and flathead Fords boiled into oblivion during the summer heat.
Through steady improvements via model cycles Holden evolved into the strongest and most dependable vehicle available here, although their 'rustbucket' reputation did linger until the mid 60's. But the Brits were hopeless (and getting worse) while soft-riding 'yank tanks' or Floating Gin Palaces offered durable drivetrains but were expensive, had little in the way of brakes and through their weight and mushy suspension destroyed the steering & front-end on the bumps, for no real performance benefit.

By then Holdens were being exported to (from memory) 50 countries. Locally they were synonamous for a fuss-free, affordable yet egalitarian (classless) car that could take the knocks and 'always get you there' - even through the outback. Their engineering sensibly followed the KISS philosophy, also beautifully finished coachwork and easy to work on. Holden's slogan 'Built for Australian conditions' gained great relevance and loyalty in motorists psyche here. For example, I can remember travelling from the major east (Sydney) to west (Perth) cities in the mid-1960's, which entailed over 1,000 hard miles of appallingly bad dirt road 'highway' (conditions that would probably deter current SUV proponents) and was still unsealed until well into the late 70's - early 80's?

Sadly this well-won reputation took a big hit in 1978 when (in an insane decision via GM-US) Holden dumped the locally-evolved/engineered and much loved H-series model (the country's best seller at the time) replacing it with the Opel V-platform Commodore bodyshell (using local mechanicals) which the Germans claimed was up to the job. It's a well-known fact that the first two Opel-supplied prototypes literally split in half during Holden's standard outback durability test, something a H-series would sail through. Not only that but the quality had gone out the window! The new design was much harder to build than the clever H-series - the traditionally 'tight as a drum' body now had clangy doors, thin panels and a general el-cheapo feel thru-out. Opel-designed bits were breaking and falling off everywhere! Initial sales enthusiasm first tapered, then fell.

So commenced a hasty and urgent program of re-inforcement, a process that continued long after the release date and through many subsequent model updates, along with a vow from Australian management to never again trust Opel durability standards! But the damage had been done, both to Holden's name and their quality - from being the largest Australian company (and employer), they were technically bankrupt by 1984 and if not for a large return-of-profit cash infusion by GM-US to retire debt and provide working capital, plus the loyalty of customers, Holden as a manufacturer would most probably have gone under.

When Opel's new-generation Commodore design was offered to us (released here in 1989) Holden was clawing back financially and wisely told Opel to jam it, instead going it alone by retaining the existing and by now much-modified & stronger 1st gen platform widened & lengthened it and grafted Opel's new-generation styling upon it. Also new was the excellent Buick 3800 V6 (RWD) along with the existing Holden-designed V8, and Holden regained sales leadership, retained to this day. Holden's 1st-generation derived platform was again significantly re-engineered and strengthened (keeping existing 2nd gen styling) with a new design front structure in 1993, Opel not sharing in the re-design as both companies products were evolving in different directions, and now from different generation designs.

By the time of the current 3rd gen styling (eg Cadillac Catera) released in 1998, Holden Commodore production had outstripped Opel Commodore, and the two diverged further in design. While again further enlarged (lengthened, widened) but retaining the Opel (and to my eyes Buick Regal) styling theme, no parts were shared between the two (save for doorhandles), only the name and a shared ancestry with the original 1978 1st generation design. With the new model and its traditional solidity largely returned, sales steadily grew from the pitiful 60-odd thousand of the 80's. The fabulous-sounding Holden V8 was retired in 2000, replaced by the awesome LS-1.

Having sold off 4 of its 5 manufacturing plants back in the grim times, Holden is now a one-line car company, producing 131,000 Commodores last year and imported about 40,000 other various GM vehicles, none from North America. Company strengths include a world-class crash test facility, solid design & engineering depth, strong sales growth and booming exports. Holden is now the centre of GM RWD design technology worldwide, responsible for certain aspects of crash safety & research, and btw had a major input via designing the 'hard points' of the new Sigma platform, which was initially referred to in-house as the Holden-Sigma.

Last year GM's South Pacific arm returned fully 85% of profits back to North America, averaging 50% over the longer term (even through the tough times) for a 21% return of investment. GM's Bob Lutz says Holden is GM's best-performing division.

Now, having made you plough through all the above to familiarise yourself with this brand, on to its current reputation regarding quality. They are certainly viewed here as offering more long-term durability than japanese vehicles such as Toyota Camry, Honda Accord etc for example. Holden's production capacity is stretched, and soon to be triple-shifted, but initial defects per 100 vehicles are only slightly worse than jap-assembled vehicles and ever improving. But as you may agree with me this measurement has more to do with the illusory perceived quality than the real world of 'how reliable are they - how long do they last - how cheap/easy to fix? Of course being a RWD design plus adapted for tough conditions is a great advantage for the long-term owner. Apart from typical early-build woes the only real concerns about quality gaining any real prominence and publicity on recent Commodores have been some complaints of excessive rear inner-tyre wear due to negative camber of the fairly primitive trailing arm IRS design and, strange to say, the imported LS-1 V8! From memory about a 3% failure rate (about 1,000 cars affected) on early examples reported due to piston slap, oval pistons, oil surge & excessive oil consumption, all now fixed. In my close experience of leased '98 Statesman V8 & 2000 SS LS-1, no defects, no rattles - no dramas.

TD as ever is correct...

The odd LS-1 has oil consumption problems and I've also heard of the odd big end problem with them too.

The VT GTS300 has a full recall to check the IRS rear-ends but that problem appears to be isolated to a few cars.

The VT was a major sales success but even Holden would concede that some quality gremlins surfaced when production was stretched. I'm still unconvinced about the wear rates on the semi-trailing IRS despite the magic 'toe-control' arms (which actually started off as a fix for the Opel Carlton).

At the end of the day, you're looking at a reliable basic platform that's relatively low-tech - it isn't the stiffest platform but it doesn't need to be. There's been some good quality engineering to maintain durability for its home market but it isn't comparable interior wise with some Euros. Some of the upmarket models have some relatively expensive doo-das which seem to be a bit gimmicky.

NVH is okay but you're comparing to a domestic car with sporty aspirations ie it won't be the most plush ride but it does handles well for a relatively heavy car.

Thanks for the insight Thunda!!
Would you per chance work for Holden? Good to know they are built with a strong chassis and suspension, even with GM's meddling ways in the background! I hope GM re-evaluates the Catera (brings it back as a different brand-name) as I saw that car as having the strongest potential of GM's current domestic offerings.
Thanks again for the info!!
Russ

I have to say after reading all these posts, that the American auto industry is in a very sad state. The very fact that the big 3 are losing customers raised on their products to the Germans and the Japanese shows us this.

Again proving that bean counting accountants ruin everything.