Hey,

I am about to put new plugs/wires in my car. I have came across some NGK Iridium IX plugs and some NGK wires. Are these any better than bosch platinum plugs and wires? Also I want to get a hi flow cat, any noticable power gains in any of this?

Thanks
Ben

Also when asked, what kind of plugs would be best, hot or cold plugs, I plan on using the T-25 to the max,

Iridiums and platinums get your engine hotter. As does the Bosch +4. If you plan on keeping boost stock, get those; otherwise get some NGK copper plugs, gapped slightly less than stock. It keeps your engine cooler at +15psi boost.

And a little on the cat. Not drastic gain, but it'll help.

Just gut your stock cat if you dont have emissions test. :smile:
I heard for turbo cars, the gutted cat, it really helps the turbo spool up faster.

Awesome, Thanks for your replys, as you can tell I am new to tuning and have been reading on and on, these forums are great, Here is another idiot question, on a stock GST how much boost are they allowing? I just read the T-25 can make up to 20psi but bleeds off before redline? So straight from the factory where are they cutting it off? and what mods can I do to get the maximum 20psi out of it?

Thanks
Ben

It's not how much boost your turbo can make that should worry you, it's how much psi's can your internals handle that should really concern you.

The 2g Bov leaks at I think 14 psi so until u upgrade that. you cant handle much

Hey,

I guess replacing the BOV is in the coming future. And after I replace my BOV would I need to get a newer MAF to further increase my options or would a boost controller work for me? The questions continue with how much boost can I take safely with my stock internals? If anybody knows that would be awesome.

Thanks
Ben

I may be a little late on this but this is a comment on high flow cat. I had one on my RS with greddy header on one end and Apexi N1 on the other and the high flow made my car sound like crap. When I hit about 4000 rpms or so it would start to scream and I just hated it. I just switched the old one back in and I love it sounds 10X better. Now I dont know if it was just the cat I bought or if gutting it will do the same thing but for me I didnt like it. And this also messed with emmissions. My check engine light came on because of this and I know it wouldnt pass just with that. Hope that helps. Oh and you can always try it anyways I just thought I would tell you my story.

A new MAF? Are we talkin about a 1g or 2g....? Because you said T-25, but ive only heard of people putting a 2g MAS on a 1g. Never heard of 2g owners upgrading their MAS but i could be wrong. As for a boost controller. Its a must if you plan on turning up the boost. I would go with the Greddy Profec B, or a MBC if you dont mind gettin out of your car to change your boost. Stock 2g internal strength really isnt a problem until about... 350hp?

a stock t 25 turbo from my experience can handle about 16 lbs of efficient boost. You can spike your boost all the way to 20 if you want to blow the turbo up real fast, but its not how much you can boost but how efficient the boost is. I had every airflow component hooked up to my car such as intake full 3inch exhaust, greddy FMIC, and i could only boost efficiently at 16 lbs with the stock turbo. When you upgrade you will notice even more efficiency in your boost. I had better gains with the 16g at 14lbs than i did with the t25 at 16lbs. Just trying to help you out a little. But when tuning your car with a boost controller youll want to turn your boost up properly so that it holds a constant pressure throughout the whole RPM range. Once you mess with it a little bit youll uderstand how and when your turbo boosts most efficiently.

Hey,

Yes from what I have been told I do have a T-25 on my car. And yeah it is a 2g. I have no intention of blowing my turbo so i'll play it safe and only attempt 16-17psi. Probably not a huge difference but none the less it is a little better. So it sounds like I am up to a new BOV, a boost controller, to sqeeze the 16psi out of it. Let's say I am ready to toss $1,000 in it, BOV, boost controller that's about $600 what else would you put in your car? Could I get a 16g turbo or larger for about $400? My goal is about 300hp right now

Thanks again,
Ben

Stay safe and get a larger intercooler.

Safe I is how I will play it, Intercooler it is. Should I try to find a front mount? or a beefed up side mount intercooler?

Thanks
Ben

ok, i just want to straighten things out a bit... [i tried to be concise about the words, so you can just do cut and paste searches, and also common abbr's so you won't have to ask later ;)]

your MAF is fine untill you get heavy into modding and want a MAS translator setup. stock internals are good to 450hp, or about 180hp over what a t-25 can ever produce.
first and foremost you need a boost gauge. the one on your dash is shit, and it doesn't even have #'s on it. almost all of them are good, if you got the cash go with an electronic one. this should always be your first mod, because now you can see what your turbo is doing. next get an air filter, like the K&N FIPK, and do the Dump Tube Hack. sometime later you will also want to look into Intake Pipes like Injen [$$$] or look in the 'Table of Contents' post for the Home Depot POS Racing pipe [$]. at this point, an exaust will be more important, though. after that look into a cat-back exaust, downpipe [abbr: DP], and depending on your emissions laws, you can get a cat-eliminator DP. i just took out my stock exaust, turbo-back and set it aside for when emissions come around, and bought the cat-eliminator DP. you will want a 3" exhaust. with a turbo, you want zero back pressure, so just go with a 3" exhaust. this will give you noticable power gains, without even touching the turbo boost pressure. you can remove the Boost Control Solenoid Restrictor and that will up you a coulpe of Lbs. after all this, then upgrade your Upper Intercooler Pipes [abbr: UICP]. the stock pipes are plastic and there is a part [where the pipe goes under the fuse box] that flattens out [this is bad]. you can get GReddy pipes that are flanged for the GReddy Type-S BOV, or Dejon Tools UICP's that can be bought flanged for other BOV's. for cheaper, you can get a 1g stock BOV that will work very well. after all of this it would be time to start upping the boost with a Manual Boost Controller [abbr: MBC; cheap] or an Electronic Boost Controller [abbr: EBC; not so cheap] like the GReddy Profec B-spec II. when you up the boost it is also time to get a bigger fuel pump to compensate for the increased air, like a 190 litre per hour, and look into the fuel pump re-wire too. upgrading your side mount intercooler to a Front Mount Intercooler [abbr:FMIC] will happen at this point because now is when you start wanting to get a bigger turbo. the stock intercooler, while small, will suffice for the t-25 up to this point, or any other turbo if ran under the right pressure [read: safe], which doesn't mean it will be making the most power. the t-25 dropps pressure as RPM goes over 5500 because the internal wastegate can't hold that much pressure without blowing open. betting a bigger intercooler will cause the turbo to have to work harder to push the same pressure because of the bigger longer pipes the air has to be pushed through. the only thing i noticed with the bigger FMIC/T-25 setup was more even power at Wide Open Throttle [abbr: WOT] and the boost dropps off at a slightly lower RPM. get a FMIC first, then start looking at turbo's. at this time you will also have gained a sizable amount of knowledge about your [our] DSM's. check the sticky thread on the top of this forum for websites pertaining to tons of knowledge on this stuff. also click the link in my signature to see some ideas as to what you can do to your ride. i'm pretty much maxed out as far as a t-25 setup in concerned. be safe and 'take it easy!' ;) hope this clarifies your head!!

i just noticed you have an AT, so you will also want to look into new Torque Converters.

and stock spark plugs and wires are the best for your car. they are good into the 9's i believe... ;)

and stock spark plugs and wires are the best for your car. they are good into the 9's i believe... ;)

Good into 9's... that's too vague.

If he's gonna be raising boost to get to 9 second quarter miles, then he'll want cooler plugs to keep his engine safe from detonation. And to deliver a strong spark under pressure. Wires don't need to be meddled with until outrageously high boost (+17psi).

Hey,

Thanks for your reply's, I am alot clearer now on what I need to do. Above all I just want to keep it reliable, where I don't have to worry about blowing up my turbo. Thanks for you guys understanding and answering my questions

Ben

i'll just say that stock plugs and wires are good to outragously high boost levels and HP that could carry you into the 9's [realize the SHITLOAD of other mods to carry you that far]. at least the wires can. i believe the plugs are NGK BPR7ES that are a bit better [colder] than stock. but that is all you should need for spark and wires. do some more research... you will get all this eventually... and if you think 17psi is outragously high :screwy:

Well, I drive a Honda. We don't know the meaning of high boost...

Frankly, I think it is a better idea to spend money on anti-detonation measures and other things that keep your engine reliable than to buy black boxes and boost controllers to jump the psi's and lean the AFR without careful planning. Yes, you'll need to play around with boost to get power. But its better to underwork the car than to overwork it; there is an ideal threshold that we want to achieve for maximum power and maximum reliability. Unless it's not your daily driven car, of course.

After you get the intake exhaust mods out of the way, get a good side mounted intercooler. Not only will it up your horses by cooling more than your stock intercooler, it'll help your turbo out because there is less of a pressure drop so the turbo has to work less to reach its boost pressure. After you do this, run to the dyno and experiment with the best AFR and boost for your car. You'll need an accurate boost gauge and a boost controller to raise the stock boost. To mess with AFR, you'll need a fuel pressure regulator, a fuel gauge, and a fuel computer.

I suggest NGK copper plugs at about 0.032" gap. Thicker wires will be necessary when you reach 17-18psi. If you plan on setting it that high, well... take it to the dyno and see how your engine components are reacting to

Not all of us are made of money, and this was the cheapest way I could think of to up the horses without killing the engine.

Hell yeah, I would rather have my engine realible at all times, So I will always go the safer route. I had a friend that had an 97 eclipse that he ran up to 30psi. I have sinced moved and lost contact with him. Or I would have asked him how he made it where he could take that much boost. I guess what really impressed me at the time was he was using the stock intercooler, I know this for a fact when we went to the dealership for his BOV was having some probs, the techs could not believe it was the stock intercooler. He used it as his daily driver. And never any probs. But I want to play it safe, Cause' I don't wanna have to buy a new engine or turbo anything like that right now. So that's why I am asking for all this advice. To keep it safe. I'll keep you guys posted an the mods I do to it. So I think I am out to buy a 1g BOV, plugs/wires, intercooler, a k&n air intake, and a boost gauge, and some exhaust mods to make a flow happy system. After that it sounds like I'll then need to get a boost controller and from there on fuel/turbo upgrades. Thanks for your replys and help.

Ben

Iridiums and platinums get your engine hotter. As does the Bosch +4. If you plan on keeping boost stock, get those; otherwise get some NGK copper plugs, gapped slightly less than stock. It keeps your engine cooler at +15psi boost.

And a little on the cat. Not drastic gain, but it'll help.


Platinum should be avoided like the plague on turbo DSMs. Iridium, I havent run it personally so I Will withhold judgement.

It's not how much boost your turbo can make that should worry you, it's how much psi's can your internals handle that should really concern you.


What a motor can handle, and boost, are two totally different things. You cant measure a motors power capacity in PSI. PSI isnt power, airflow is, and power is cylinder pressure (or heat, see PV=nrt), and that is how you determine the limits of the motor. The T25 will never make enough power to threaten even a small rod 7 bolt at its maximum boost. It may cause knock from lack of efficiency and take out a ring or land, but that can happen at any power level.

Consider this. A t25 at 25 psi might make 250 HP. My setup at 25 psi made 400 whp (which I'll admit I'm not proud of). In which case is the motor more at risk? ;)

Just one of those technicalities that is a pet peeve of mine, not trying to be a bastard :)

A Never heard of 2g owners upgrading their MAS but i could be wrong. Stock 2g internal strength really isnt a problem until about... 350hp?

The stock 2g MAS is good to roughly 450-500 HP. Once you move ~390 gramns per second, or about 50 lbs/min of air, it starts to lose count. ITs gets ugly, trust me. I found that limit at the shootout last year. Most poeple are now upgrading to a GM hotwire MAF out of the LS1 cars via the MAFtranslator. This is what I use now.

The stock 2g internals are doing up to 450 whp. Not too bad at all. But I have to admit I would feel better with larger rods in there, like the 6 bolt rods or aftermarket.

Good into 9's... that's too vague.

If he's gonna be raising boost to get to 9 second quarter miles, then he'll want cooler plugs to keep his engine safe from detonation. And to deliver a strong spark under pressure. Wires don't need to be meddled with until outrageously high boost (+17psi).


More like 30+ psi. I swear by stock wires. I tried magnacores and 3 sets in a row misfired within a day or two. NGKs worked well for me, and are the most trusted brand by DSMers. Use any other brand at the risk f getting misfires under boost right out of the box. Its tough for the spark to jump the gap with the cylinder densities we run under boost. A wire that would be perfectly fine on a NT car could easily cause misfires on a turbo car. The higher the airflow, the more likely it is to be an issue. I think 9s is pushing it though, since the stock ignition will be long gone by then in most cases. Though poeple are in the 10s from what i have seen on stock ignition. I personally find that even at 25+ psi colder plugs dont make any difference at all in knock, but it cant hurt.

Sorry for the 5 posts, but I'm way too tired to try to get them all organized into one :p

Oh, and if you want to jump around different psi's alot, get an electronic boost controller. It's just convenient to be able to change the boost in the cabin. I kept my old TSI talon at a constant 16psi with a manual boost controller, alot of times I wished that I could tune it down from inside the car.

To answer the iridium plugs thing, it was burning too rich and everytime I took the plugs out there was always a black residue that accumulated on the tips of the plugs. NGK Platinums were slightly better, but the coppers I found to be the best.

To answer the iridium plugs thing, it was burning too rich and everytime I took the plugs out there was always a black residue that accumulated on the tips of the plugs. NGK Platinums were slightly better, but the coppers I found to be the best.

are you paying attention to anything in here? platinum plugs = shit. best plugs for DSM = BPR7ES if anything other than stock.

and about the long post i made earlier, pay attention to that, that will be the SAFEST way to go about tuning your DSM in the early phases. everything is bolt-on, and an imporovement over stock parts. this means that when you are pushing your DSM's envelope, you will have parts that are made for it, not parts that are made to restrict performance. a bigger intercooler will be a waste of money at this phase in tuning!!! you just don't need it!!! and as far as what AcesHigh said about all that fuel tuning, it is a complete waste of time on a T-25. this is a turbo that is not worth spending $$$ on making it run to its top abilities, IMHO. other than getting a bigger fuel pump [AFTER everything else has been done] you will need nothing else at this pahse. i just want to make it clear, so you don't go wasting $$ when you could be making it more productive in upgrades that will help you.

Boost Gauge > K&N FIPK, Dump Tube Hack [intake pipe]> Turbo-Back Exaust [DP, [HI-FlowCAT {optional}], CB-exhaust] > UICP/BOV > MBC/EBC, 190lph Fuel Pump > FMIC > Turbo Upgrade > Fuel Tuning w/ SAFC, DSMLink, etc... [that's a whole other story, but by the time you get there you will know what you need to know]

stick to this route and you will be safe, happy, and fast :smokin:

Don't think you are clear on everything from this post. I wish I had read it earlier before GSXracer got to it, but his answers are all right on...

2g BOV leaks at 12psi, stock is 15psi, max is 16psi.

You don't need an intercooler until you have a turbo bigger than 14b, then you will want a FMIC, not sidemount.. unless you have special needs, like a sleeper with medium turbo, small 16g or T28...

If a T25 could make 30psi, it would still be safe for internals, it matters on the turbo.. not psi.

600 for a BOV and boost controller is way way way too much. You can get a cheap UICP and 1g bov for under 100, and a boost controller from 50-300 (profec b).

Once again remember that 95 GSXracer ran 12's on 1800 bucks, DSM's are supposed to be cost efficient horsepower, don't spend more than you have to.

Your friend running 30psi on stock IC doesn't strike me as 'impressive' so much as wasteful. He may have been on a budget, or saving up.. I don't know.. but stock IC sucks nuts, and isnt good for much air flow at all.

Dunno if I missed the reason- plugs and wires aren't necessary in the beginning part of modding. Unless yours are broken, don't replace them.

It's .030 for under 16psi. and .028 for over 16psi.

Hey,

Thanks for your reply's. I seem to be getting alot of info. The only reason I am replacing my plugs/wires right now is because they have never been changed. The car has 96,000 miles on it and I figured it would be a good idea. I was checking out www.dsmtrader.com and found some really good deals on there. I did find some NGK BPR7ES and I bought them, $15 shipped. I have lots of ideas to go off now. And I'll be keeping my signature updated with my mods. Thanks for all your help so far everybody and if you have a comments or suggestion keep them coming.

Ben

are you paying attention to anything in here? platinum plugs = shit. best plugs for DSM = BPR7ES if anything other than stock.

Christ. Do you have anything to say other than regurgitating 95 GSXracer? I said the platinums are not as bad as iridiums, NOT that they were the ones to use.

Good job on rephrasing all the 'staged performance upgrades' guides for the DSM. You win nothing.

There's not one limited path that you can go for tuning. Balance is everything. While you're still in the lower levels, a side air-to-air intercooler will make a good impact. Alot of people stay at this level for a long time, especially if you are planning on using smaller turbos to get faster spool times. Not everyone has to have the same damn setup.

What company makes an aftermarket SMIC for a DSM? (Just Curious) Upgrading your intercooler to another side-mount seems kinda wasteful to me too. Its like upgrading your T25 to a 14B. While it may be good to learn how to tune, why not jump up a step to a 16g or a FMIC?

No point in arguing, any order of modding will get you there eventually. But I have always found it best, after trying to reinvent the wheel for years (this is however how I learned so much, and learned things other poeple still dont believe), to just look at the setups that work. People run 11s on sidemounts (rarely, but 12s are common), so why spend that grand on a FMIC so soon. But if you get the FMIC, the money is spent and you'll always have that mod. So you dont really lose either way. But on a budget, it makes sense to do things in a particular order. I never follow the staged upgrade paths, because they are often not the best way to do it, in my personal experience.

It all comes down to your goals, and your wallet. I think its good that we all provide conflicting upgrade paths, because this is how poeple will see the options, and weight the arguments, and then hopefully be able to make thier own educated guess. I think the way I hit 12s is the best way to do it in a 2g on a budget, but I dont expect other to take the same path. But I put it out there for them just the same. Copy what works, but also be able to pick out the overkill stuff, if youre on a budget. :)

I also dont aggre with the snide remarks about boosted regurgitating what I say. He says plenty of things I dont agree with, and he's borne the brunt of more than a few of my "correction replies" in many cases. :D I thought his post on the first page was pretty good. I think he may have misunderstood your comment on the platinums though based on the way it was worded. I Was wondering what you meant by that as well, before I read the explanation.

Oh, and if you want to jump around different psi's alot, get an electronic boost controller. It's just convenient to be able to change the boost in the cabin. I kept my old TSI talon at a constant 16psi with a manual boost controller, alot of times I wished that I could tune it down from inside the car.

I'll second that. I'm glad I suffered the expense of the Profec 3-4 years ago, its still worth every penny to this day. Maybe I'm getting lazy in my old age though :D


Another thing to note is that turbo cars eat plugs like crazy. Everyone should be changing them no later than every 10k miles. I find that mine are beat often in less mileage than that. For those that dont know, I lost my last motor (SBR stage 2 ross/eagle 6 bolt) when the number 2 plug physically came apart and took out the ring/land, and scored the cylinder wall as well as putting a nice ding in the head. Thankfully I was logging on that run so there is some info on it. There was no knock, AFR was 10.3:1 on the wideband, and this is consisitent with the breakage on the plug - no signs of high temperature. So be sure youre all changing plugs often. ;)

What company makes an aftermarket SMIC for a DSM? (Just Curious) Upgrading your intercooler to another side-mount seems kinda wasteful to me too. Its like upgrading your T25 to a 14B. While it may be good to learn how to tune, why not jump up a step to a 16g or a FMIC?

www.dejontool.com is one. Its a small spearco if I remember correctly. I agree that it is wasteful. No matter how good the SMIC is, its still in a real crappy location. If there isnt enough airflow through it, it wont matter how efficient it is. I ran a supra SMIC for years, and it helped my pump gas numbers (2mph or so) but had no effect on race gas.

I dont think the analogy to the t25/14b is a good one though. The 14b is a massive upgrade for a t25. And since they are cheap (mine was 100 bucks), and do nearly as well as 16gs (I wouldnt bother upgrading a 14b to a 16g at all), it makes a lot of sense for the guy on a budget. :) If someone wants a new turbo for reliablility reasons or whatever, then naturally a 16g makes more sense.

But I have always found it best, after trying to reinvent the wheel for years (this is however how I learned so much, and learned things other poeple still dont believe), to just look at the setups that work. People run 11s on sidemounts (rarely, but 12s are common), so why spend that grand on a FMIC so soon. But if you get the FMIC, the money is spent and you'll always have that mod. So you dont really lose either way. But on a budget, it makes sense to do things in a particular order. I never follow the staged upgrade paths, because they are often not the best way to do it, in my personal experience.

exactly what i have been trying to say. and the upgrade path is just my personal opinon, based on setups that work, and what has worked [and been explained to why it would work better this way] for me. this is all early mods on a slight budget anyways, no big deal. like i said, have fun, be safe ;)