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92 Lumina Euro 3.1 FI idle & start problems


RedWolf92
01-26-2004, 01:34 PM
Intermittent engine cut-out with no warning when coming to a complete stop. Used to only happen once a week, but became more frequent as time went on. A couple of times had loss of power while driving that reminded me of my old Chevette flooding. Changed fuel & air filters, but problem persists.

Local mechanic pulled up "a few codes" and replaced the Air Charge Temp Sensor and some bad spark plug wires. Could not get problem to duplicate while they were actually looking for it, so they recommended replacing the Ignition Module, Crankshaft Position Sensor, and a few other things (I've forgotten all they wanted, it was back in September) "cuz that's wut the dealer would do." Took the car back at this point, and it ran fine on undemanding trips to & from work for a week. Then the car wouldn't start after a trip to the grocery store leaving us stranded. Went back the next day and it started fine... took it home and left it parked for over a month.

Purchased IM plus coils and CPS on my own and took to a different mechanic to install; but problem persists.

Since most of the problems occur while the engine is getting to idle, I focused my research in the Chilton book in this area. Purchased & replaced Idle Air Control Valve and Throttle Position Sensor... and had to take an hour to teach the engine to idle again. Problem persisted, but not as bad... but got progressively worse throughout December until I was back at square 1.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but seems obvious to me that something (some valve, perhaps) is getting hot and sticking in the wrong position at the wrong time... I just have no idea where to go next.
Could the air inlet in the throttle body be closing inappropriately?
Is there supposed to be oil coming back through the air tube connecting the engine to the main air inlet hose between the air cleaner and the throttle body?
The "Anti Lock" light is flashing... glanced at other threads, could this somehow be related?
Should I just drive it off a cliff - assuming it starts at all?

:banghead:

rebel_wolf74
01-26-2004, 10:55 PM
how ya doin redwolf, hey i know how ya feel i am in the same boat with my 93 limina euro with a 3.1L. I have changed the crank positionin sensor, throtle positionin sensor, gutted my cat, and cut the wire to my tcc. still my problem wont go away. does yours stall out when you first start it up and it takes a few times of it stallin before it will stay runnin so you can actually drive it, mine does. my next step is to test my chip in the cpm to see if it is goin bad. did you do anything to the car just before it started actin up or did it just do it. mine didnt start untill i changed the spark plugs and wires. just kinda wierd to me that this is the point it would start actin up, go figure huh. well if i find out any thing with mine i will let you know, it might solve your problem as well.

RedWolf92
01-28-2004, 11:23 AM
Howdy, rebel! Have you seen all the review sites that go on about how reliable the Lumina is?
:grinno:

does yours stall out when you first start it up and it takes a few times of it stallin before it will stay runnin so you can actually drive it, mine does.

Not exactly... mine is kinda goofy: if it's been sitting cold for several hours it will start up and take off fine and do really well for a 5 - 10 mile trip. If I shut it down then start it back up again within 20 minutes, it will more than likely get me home - possibly dying at a stop once. If I try to start it up again between 30 - 90 minutes after the first trip, it will either be an increadibly difficult start, or it won't start at all. If it does start, it will run like crap with the Check Engine Soon light on for a few minutes until it figures out what's wrong and fixes itself... then it's time to get home PDQ. If it doesn't start, I have to let it rest and cool off for a few hours - then we restart the cycle all over again.

It's put a real kink in my family's social life.

my next step is to test my chip in the cpm to see if it is goin bad.

That option is still on my list, but I've been putting it off because of the dent a replacement would put in my budget.

did you do anything to the car just before it started actin up or did it just do it. mine didnt start untill i changed the spark plugs and wires. just kinda wierd to me that this is the point it would start actin up, go figure huh.

I replaced my alternator in March (2nd time in 3 years) and the water pump in May or June... this problem started out of the blue in August.

well if i find out any thing with mine i will let you know, it might solve your problem as well.

Any help is always greatly appreciated!
Catch ya later...

JERKY420
01-31-2004, 12:01 AM
test the injectors they can cause problems like that

rebel_wolf74
01-31-2004, 12:23 AM
hey redwolf u might try testin the map sensor as well.

86vette91Lumina
02-01-2004, 02:45 AM
hey redwolf u might try testin the map sensor as well.

Theres a broad range to check to see what can cause the problems.Do you have a scanner?That would be a good place to start diagnostics.It will show the IAC counts,map,egr,injector pulse width,integrator,02,etc,etc.

Also a FP check and test plus an injector(s) test-balance and etc.It does sound like the injectors may be leaking,but then again,a leaking check valve in the pump or bad regulator can be the cause.A leaking egr can cause symptoms as well.

If you dont have a scanner,or a digital voltmeter,vaccum pump,etc or even a FP gauge,youre not at much luck diagnosing the problems at home.Sorry to hear a mechanic could not isolate the problem.
Its gonna be alot of shotgun guessing online.Usually its something simple,but a PITA to track down.

RedWolf92
02-03-2004, 11:10 AM
If you dont have a scanner,or a digital voltmeter,vaccum pump,etc or even a FP gauge,youre not at much luck diagnosing the problems at home.Sorry to hear a mechanic could not isolate the problem.
Its gonna be alot of shotgun guessing online.Usually its something simple,but a PITA to track down.

Well, nuts.

The car lost power on the drive home from work this morning, and promptly died when I let my foot off the gas as I pulled over.
It restarted, but idled like crap and the Service Engine Soon light stayed on. There was the tell-tale smell of a bad catalytic converter when it started up, but it shortly went away (this has happened once or twice before).
It got me home, but the CES light only went out briefely a couple of times as the motor dropped into idle.

Jeremy-WI
02-06-2004, 01:30 PM
Check out the wires going from the ICM to the crankshaft position sensor the harness could be cracked leaving wires exposed to be damaged or partially pulled out of the connectors

RedWolf92
02-07-2004, 11:06 AM
Okay, the POS will not stay running now. If it starts up, it idles really rough with the SES light on... once I tapped the gas pedal the engine speed dipped down, and when I tapped a little harder it died. Will not restart now.

Flipping through my Chilton book, the section on the PCV valve caught my attention; the symptoms it describes of a faulty valve are very in line with my problems. But where the hell is it??? A picture of a 3.1L F.I. engine in the front of the book points to the valve cover (?) on the front of the engine where a tube connects it to the air hose between the filter and the throttle body... but the section on PCV removal & replacement is slightly confusing (or maybe I'm very tired).
Looking at the spot on the valve cover (?) like in the picture, all I have is a grommet with the air tube stuck in it.

If the PCV went missing sometime last year - and the last time anyone was in the engine compartment was during a water pump change in May-ish - would this be the root cause of all my problems? And if so, would there be collateral damage to various other parts of the engine since I've been driving this way since August?


Check out the wires going from the ICM to the crankshaft position sensor the harness could be cracked leaving wires exposed to be damaged or partially pulled out of the connectors

I've checked as much of the wiring as I can get my hands on and it all seems in pretty fair condition. Honestly, I don't know where either of these parts are... can you point me in the right direction?

Jeremy-WI
02-07-2004, 11:56 AM
ICM(igntion control module) is behind the coils, has three different connectors plugged into it, you have to get under the car to check it out, the one set of wires will go under the oil pan to the other side of the motor-the ones you want to look at.
The pcv valve is usually stuck in a valve cover on the motor, check both valve covers only one usually has a pcv(as long as the motor is a v block) and the tube usually goes to the intake manifold and the other is just a tube and grommet that connects to the air intake, so your pcv may be on the PITA side of the motor

Have you checked the code yet, should be instructions in the Chilton

JERKY420
02-08-2004, 02:40 AM
if you want to know haw to check why the ces light came on all you have to do is take a piece of wire bare at both ends and connect the top left two terminals of your ecm plugin it is located under the dash a little to the right of the steering wheel you will have to have the key in the on position with the engine off it will show a code throught the ces light it will flash once pause and flash twice that is a 12 it will repeat this 3 times and then show another code keep track of the next code and look it up in a haynes manual or on the internet look for gm service codes if you don"t find the code post another message with the code anyone who knows gm cars and trucks well enough can find these codes and let you know what is wrong funny nobody told you about this sooner

RedWolf92
02-08-2004, 11:42 AM
if you want to know haw to check why the ces light came on all you have to do is...

Yeah, I spied that page in the Chilton book when I found the info on the PCV valve. Tried it out this morning before starting the car, and here's the results:

15 : Low engine coolant temperature
23 : Low intake air temperature
(it was about 40 this morning)
43 : Knock Sensor Circuit
53 : System Overvolt

I pulled & reinstalled the ECM fuse to reset module and lo-and-behold, the car started... idled like crap for a little bit, but I spent the next 25 minutes doing the re-teach idle routine. Idle is fairly smooth now, but I don't trust it enough to take it out for a test drive.

Re-checked the codes, and all were still present except 23.

1.) Shouldn't engine coolant be up to temp after idleing for 20 minutes?

2.) Would the knock sensor be responding to the engine vibrations caused by the rough idle, or should it just be replaced for the heck of it? I think the book said that the ECM will retard engine speed if this sensor trips, but would it really contribute to all of my problems?

3.) Since there were no MAP Sensor codes, can I assume that vacuum is normal and stable - and thus, there is nothing wrong with the PCV Valve that I still cannot find? (I'm starting to believe it is located on the rear valve cover, but I cant see through the intake manifold plenum)

4.) The System Overvolt code gives me concern because I've replaced the alternator twice in the 3 years I've had this car; I guess something's not right because every now & then I'll get a static shock from touching the body when getting out of the car after shut-down. Is there a separate voltage regulator that I can adjust, or is integral to the alternator? Any other special thing I should look for, other than frayed/chafed wiring?

Jeremy-WI
02-08-2004, 12:51 PM
The static shock probably has more to do with your tires and the clothing you happen to wear. You might want to check your battery connections, corroded or loose will cause strange things. Voltage regulator is internal, I've replaced a few of these alternators myself, a couple on my 96 K1500 and one on a Lumina

Overtime
02-08-2004, 11:08 PM
You might want to make sure your injector o-rings are in good shape if you have MPFI or TBI. If you are leaking a bit of air around the injector, it could cause your 43 error. :2cents:

JERKY420
02-10-2004, 01:23 AM
system overvolt I really couldn"t tell ya never experienced that problem. vacuum is probably good but if not you should be able to hear a hissing sound from in the engine compartment. to find out why code 23 keeps coming up you might need to hook it up to a scanner you can usually do that for free at autozone most other places charge out the ass for it. If you believe you have a coolant problem change the thermostat if not already done its only 10 bucks and well worth it. Also sometimes a little piece of crap can get stuck in the thermostat and hold it open thus not warming up very fast, takes mine about 20 minute to warm up though. Good luck.

RedWolf92
02-12-2004, 10:39 AM
Changed PCV valve & MAP sensor just for giggles... no fix.

Next step will be the mechanic, but I think I'll go car shopping this weekend as well.

xjoeharperx
02-12-2004, 10:50 AM
Your problem is the ecu is bad..i have run into this problem many times before..the ecu is sensing that the voltage is 25 volts causing the car to flood and sputter..causing a loss of power and stalling...

here is the last post from it...this was the fix for the car
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=184210

PartsMaster
11-03-2004, 07:52 PM
Remove the IAC Valve located by where the air intake hose is located, spray the inside of the chamber and the IAC Valve with carb. cleaner.
When the IAC and chamber gets carboned up the car will not function properly or will not start. Just ran across this problem this last week.

Kooterskkar
11-03-2004, 08:45 PM
Vaccum leaks, check for vaccum leaks.
Also, pull off the intake plenum (part on top that says 3.1MPFI) and go to town on it with a bottle brush and a can of carb cleaner. Get all the carbon out of it. Clean out the throttle body as well. And when you get done with that, and get it all put back together with new plenum and tb gaskets, get a can of seafoam and run it in through a vacum line. A good one is the one for the cruise control balloon by the battery. Theres a t-fitting there that is good for this. Follow the instructions on the back of the can of Seafoam.
If the plenum is extremely carboned up, you might have an EGR valve stuck open. Those can cause problems like this. Try that and see if it helps.
PCV valve on a 3.1 is on the back valve cover. On the right side if your lookin at it from above. Its got a funny shaped rubber hose that you have to get from a dealer if you break it. You can do that while the plenum is off and it will be easier to get to. :bigthumb:

web923
11-03-2004, 11:12 PM
I have a 93 Lumina v-6 3.1 and the pcv valve is located on the valve cover that is close to the firewall just below the map sensor. Must tilt the engine to gain access. I had to remove the map sensor. The hose runs from the pcv valve to the underside of the intake manifold. When I attempted to change the pcv (the hose being brittle) busted off near where it connects to the underside of the intake, which is impossible to reach. Be gentle!

ibjammin
12-17-2004, 08:21 PM
where is the knock sensor on a 3.1 located , and what does it look like?

jeffcoslacker
12-18-2004, 07:37 AM
I doubt the knock sensor has anything to do with it. If it is coding for that, it probably relates to excessive knock, which can be caused by too much air (lean), poor fuel delivery (lean again) or excessive engine temp. I forget, have you checked fuel pressure, or changed the fuel pressure regulator?

lumina1
02-07-2011, 09:09 PM
I had the same problem and come to find out it was just a cracked spark plug! Check your plugs and plug wires!

bigblack89
08-29-2014, 04:43 PM
I am having a similar problem with my 92 Lumina 3.1. I am assuming all of my problems started with a cracked spark plug. I bought the car and removed a spark plug from the front. Low and behold brand new bosch platinum 2's were already installed. So i left it at that.
About 5 months later, as I am driving home from work, my car starts to misfire, backfire, sputter, and attempt to stall. I stopped let it cool for a moment that restarted the car. The same problem kept happening. Pulled ther code and nit was a bad ICM. Replaced it, and my car began to run again.
After the ICM replacement, I noticed my car did not idle while driving down the road, or coming to a stop.I checked vacuum lines, replaced my IAC, TPS, cleaned my EGR spotless, but the same thing kept happening. During this time I probably retrained my idle 15 times.
I call my brother, who is going to automotive school, and ask his opinion. He thinks i have a bad coil. I checked all resistanced when replacing ICM, and all coils checked out ok, but he insisted i check them when i am having a problem. Still all Resistances check out. Next i pulled plugs off coils 1 at a time while idling, to check spark, and notice a possible miss, or week spark on 1 post, of each of 2 coils.
In decide to replace all wires and spark plugs as well. While removing my sparkplugs found out that the cylinder #1 spark plug's ceramic is cracked in half... Here is my problem. Changed all plugs and wires, plus the coil attached to that spark plug, relearn idle, and go for a drive. Low and behold the same issue is happening again. Obviously this spark plug has caused a huge problem, so I tap test my ECM and the car stalls out.
Before my new ECM could arrive, the old one completely failed, and left me stranded, needeing to be towed home. After installing the new ECM and PROM the car starts right up, better than before. After relearning the idle, I go for a test drive, and i have still the same problem. Throughout this time i have noticed the problem occurs only when the accelerator is not depressed, and the car is in motion. The problem becomes amplified when driving on less maintained roads.
Now my theory is that this spark plug basically caused almost, if not every, component of my computer controlled ignition system to get damaged. I spent hours pouring over manuals and learning every detail the computer takes into account when controlling spark and fuel/air mixture. Then in a wiring diagram i found my next most likely culprit.
Obviously my 3x crank position sensor is working, at least somewhat, because the car has no problem starting, and has loads of power. There is a posibility of some faulty piece ofnit cause faulty readings, leading to the stalling issue, when it is not receiving a positive increase in crank speed. However; this is not the only crank position sensor GM put on these vehicles.
GM also put in a 24x Crank position sensor. Per the manual This sensor is responsible for relaying information to the ECM about crank position, to improve engine idle, and low rpm driveability. This to me matches the exact problem described above, and as to what i am having. I will be testing this sensor soon, as well as the 3x crank sensor. I will also be testing my MAP, Canister purge valve, IAT sensor, CTS, Knock sensor, and O2 Sensors, since these are all connected to the Electronic Spark Timing system.

Tech II
08-29-2014, 05:01 PM
Have you checked coil output with a spark tester?

Schurkey
08-30-2014, 07:13 AM
Considering the work already done, throwing a fuel pressure tester on that vehicle sounds like a worthy project, too.

bigblack89
08-30-2014, 10:56 PM
Its definitely worth a shot, checking the fuel pressure, when it is warm. However, the fuel pump and fuel filter were the first things that i replaced on the car. I thought they were bad because i wasnt getting any fuel. When i was installing the new one i noticed the wiring was wrong. I used my multimeter to do a continuity check to correct the wiring from the inside to outside of the fuel tank. After this the fuel pump started working.
I have an extra coil here, that i just bought. I can swap it out 1 at a time, with the 2 remaining old coils. I dont have a spark tester though.
After installing the new ECM and PROM, i have run into another issue. My instrument cluster works, except my speedometer wont read a speed. When i turn the key to the on position, the speedometer will rise a little, but stay below 0. I jacked the car up, threw some tape around a small break in the VSS connector wiring, put it in drive, and took my foot off the break to see if the speedo would work, and no dice. I did notice a small amount of fluctuation in speedo needle, but barely anything. I have also noticed while actually driving the vehicle, the shift points are a at a much higher rpm, they are rougher, and my TCC clutch isnt working correctly. To me all this points to a bad VSS.
When i took my VSS out and looked online for the part, all the manuals say i have the VSS of the 3 speed transmission. I know for a fact that I have the 4t60 transmission, it is stamped to the bottom of the oil pan. I am wondering if the reading from this VSS, and the one the manuals say i should have differ. If so could it be the new ECM is configured to read this input signal. I dont think it should matter though.
While checking the VSS i think i found the solution to my idle problem, and who knows maybe the speedo issue also. The wires from the VSS, and the Crank Position Sensor both run underneath the passenger side of the engine. This happens to be in between the Crankshaft Pulley, and vehicle frame. I know for sure i saw a break in the insulation on one of the twisted wires for my Crank Sensor. It has to be shorting out causing the stalling issue. Maybe the VSS wires are shorting out here too. I will fix the crank wire tomorrow.
Back to the VSS. I pulled it out and checked the resistance on 20k ohms and it read a steady .48. Then i put the gear in the sensor and turned it. the ohms went from .48 and varied from positive to negative. Im not sure if its supposed to do that, I will look for specs on this sensor. Volts AC were produced, and they increased with the speed i spun the gear. I could only get it up to about 1 volt. The sensor worked before i changed the ECM, and it is putting out AC voltage like it is supposed to. Tomorrow i will check continuity from the sensor wiring harness to the ECM.

bigblack89
09-02-2014, 09:47 AM
Alright so i finally solved all of my problems. I fixed the breaks in the cable connection my crank position sensor, and that fixed my idling issue. As far as the speed sensor goes, the PROM that i received wasnt programmedc correctly for my speed sensor. I put my original prom in the new ECM i purchased, and the speedo began to work.

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