What do you guys know about 307 small blocks? I am wondering because I currently own one. I am only 14, so I am on a budget. I had a few performance questions such as can I stroke it into a high-revving 327 very easily? What camshaft would be best for my application giving it performance(but not that loping blurble). Which camshaft is best? What type of lifters, and what kind of ratio do I want on my rocker arms? Can I just hone the cylinders, or do I need to bore them? My setup so far performance wise is switching out the stock 2-barrel intake and carb to a 4 barrel intake and carb(but not a Q-jet).So, where do you guys suggest I should go from now?I haven't recieved the engine at my place just yet, but I do have the intake and carb. Thank you in advance for your help...

First off, if it's a 307 is it a small-block Chevy? Chevy small blocks found their way into several other GM cars, various years and models. What year of car did it come out of? Which model?

It would be unwise to tell you how to build it up until it's known what car the engine will go into. Other things like the car's weight, final drive gear ratio, tire size, transmission type and number of gears, yada yada yada ad nauseam will determine this. And how you plan to drive it!

If it's the SBC, there's performance parts galore! If it's a BOP [Buick-Olds-Pontiac] engine, performance parts are a little harder to come by.

I notice the 'Stang in your sig area; have you been to www.fordsix.com lately?

Good luck and keep us posted.

I have fallen in love with '48 Ford Pickups, so that will be the car I am using it for, and the transmission, I would like to be a 700R4. Gear ratio is undecided, I can't decide how bad of gas mileage I want yet... I am thinking somewhere in the mid 3.'s, but definitely not 4:10's. The stang in the sig is my pop's, he started using this site as a restoration reference and now I am using it since we have finished. By they way, I don't know how to put a picture of it under my name, or in my sig, or in a post at all for that matter.*Any help would be appreciated* I am not sure exactly what the engine was, and I have no idea what it came out of. It was given to me, and the guy who gave it to me didn't know either. I looked up the numbers and they say it is a 1969 Pontiac 307. I don't know if the numbers would read as a Chevy or not, if it were. Well, theres the info, hope it gives you a little more to go off of.

I'll do a little bit of research, as I'm curious.

Do you HAVE a '48 Ford pickup?!?! :naughty:

Because if so, try checking out www.bobdrake.com for some real neat, high quality stuff. A few of the guys here at work are into old pre-war Fords, and like this place. A '48 isn't that much of a stretch, worth a look.

Do you have the engine yet?

I'm more gearhead than geek, and have no idea how to post a picture either. It's probably easy, but I haven't taken the time to learn.

Dan

No, I don't have the '48 Ford Pickup yet, my pop says I can't have one for a while, and to just concentrate on my studies. Which is hard to do when all I am thinking about is the truck and my engine. Luckily he did allow me to get the engine though, which isn't at my house at the moment, but should be by spring. I have an '85 chevy 305 in our garage right now, but when I get it back together, and ready to throw away( it is just being used as a learning tool, and is no good), I can then get the 307 ready.So, thats my plan. Show my dad that I can maintain straight A's while working on the engine, and then start asking about the truck.

It seems this IS the small-block Chevy! I have one in my '70 Camaro.

The difference between the 307 and the 327 is the size of the bore: The 327 has a 4" dia. bore, and the 307 has a 3 7/8" dia. bore. You can't bore a 307 block to the 4" bore, there isn't enough wall thickness.

The 307 uses heads that have ports meant for economy, rather than performance. Heads are swappable, though.

Now for the good news: The crank and rods are the same as the later 327, and there isn't THAT much difference in bore size. But when it comes time to put insurance on this baby, there's a whole world of difference in what you pay for a 307 vs. 327!!

This is an EXCELLENT engine for you to start with - great for street use, parts easy to come by, and no 'high performance' stigma associated with it, at least in the eyes of the insurance companies. But it is still a powerful engine. More power than you or I will find a legal use for, that is for sure!

What you'll want to do is a high quality, more-or-less stock-type rebuild.
Smokey Yunick said it best: "I've looked at these trick of the week engines, and when you open them up, - the really important stuff - the ring seal, port prep and valve job were laughable".

So to Smokey, the "Really important stuff" is the ring seal, port prep and valve job. That's where to concentrate your time and effort! :smokin:

Have you gone around Summit Racing and PAW sites? You can find parts there at reasonable prices for high quality stuff. If you're really set on spending money somewhere, consider the 'gapless' rings.

Is your Dad going to help you with this? Bet he will if you only ask. Lastly, consider fuel injection. You can get an FI set up off of a 305 for not a whole lot of money if you shop around. Better mileage, more power, and the GM ECM is programmable. Just check out http://moates.net

Type to you again soon!

Yea, about the FI. I found a fuel injection kit off of an '86 Iroc Camaro. It is on Ebay and is standing at $175. It has 3 days left, but no bids yet. The problem is, I don't have the money... See, I have a one-way bank account, the money goes in but parents don't allow it to come out. If I were to buy this TPI system, I would have to convinve my Dad to let me borrow the money, and slowly pay him back. I doubt it will work, but it is worth a shot!

Definitely the way to go, if you can convince him!

You'll need the FI set-up for the engine, and the computer, all the sensors, and the wiring harness. $175 is a good deal if EVERYTHING is included. But if you've got to hunt up your own 'puter, don't get all the sensors, will still need the wiring harness, or whatever - take a pass on this one. Another, better deal is out there. There's literally millions of these things out there, and it will have to be tuned to your engine anyway so it doesn't matter, so much, what you start with.

Now's the time to go to the library and start reading. Just remember not to get sucked in by all the hype - you're building a street motor, not a NASCAR racing engine. Aluminum roller rockers are nice, but if you don't need 'em they won't give you any power.

At this point, figure a reasonable redline of 5500 or 6000 RPM for your engine. That's redline, not power band. :iceslolan

Here's a formula for you: Horsepower = Torque x RPM divided by 5252

It's easier to raise RPM than build torque to get the same HP, but it isn't nearly as much fun to drive. Please believe me, power coming off the line is a whole lot more important than being able to post a big number on a dyno. Coming away from the stoplight is where a street drag is won or lost, not that I recommend street racing!

Import guys really have to wind up their engines to make the HP that the advertisements state! Doesn't do anything good for wear and tear on the engine, or gas mileage. Friction rises dramatically with RPM.

More later,
Dan

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2438397982&category=33553
That is the TPI for sale, but like you said, I got to wondering about the computer and harnes... Maybe it would be easier to get one from a junkyard, and pick the things that I know I need from the start. Hopefully it won't run too much.What is your recommendation on pistons? Stock, or aftermarket? What about the cam, have you had a good, or bad experience with any? Thank for your advice and help so far, looking forward to reading later posts!

The surest way to get everything you need for an EFI swap is to get your hands on a whole donor car. Maybe a junkyard will cut you a deal, e.g. you buy 'the whole package', and just keep coming back for stuff as you need it.

The best bet, IMO, for pistons is to use stock-type, flat top cast replacement pistons. Especially for a street motor, these have some real advantages that most guys overlook because they're just not as glamorous as a forged piston. One advantage is cost. But the most important is they are stable, dimensionally.

Forged pistons grow more as they heat up, and need more clearance (.004 and up) between the piston and bore than a cast piston does. Cast pistons will last longer, and give better support (again, IMO) to the ALL IMPORTANT RING SEAL than the forged ones.

As far as cams go, stay conservative. Here's another "Secret" that 90% of all hot rodders simply ignore: Match the camshaft and the induction to the intended power band of the engine. Lots of guys take a stock engine, throw on big cam and induction, maybe even a set of headers, and the thing simply won't perform worth a bleep on the street. They forgot that the engine is still trying to breath through small ports in the cylinder heads and trying to exhale through the stock exhaust system!

What happens is they didn't match everything up as a whole package with everything working together. And it's a disappointment. An expensive disappointment!

Here's another great site to furthur your education: www.headersbyed.com and if you can spare the $22 get the Header InfoPak! This is money well spent. You are looking at a Tuned Port Injection set-up, which is the induction side. Well, the exhaust side needs to be 'tuned' just as the induction side does - and they need to be tuned for the same RPM power band. Look around that site, he explains it better than I can.

By now, you're no doubt on Information Overload. So I'll add one more thing. :iceslolan

Start saving your money for the absolute, very best, top notch multi-angle valve job that you can afford! The '3-angle' valve job was a big thing when I first got into this game. I've heard of four, and even FIVE angle jobs being done, but have never seen any. This is a topic for my next post, due to it's complexity.

So here's what's important in a nutshell: Basic stock-type rebuild, with whatever funds you can scrounge poured in where they'll do you the most good. Ring seal, valve job, (more later) and port prep (will touch on that in the future. Mainly match the intake ports together between the intake manifold and the heads.)
All the systems; induction, cam timing, valve size and valve job, and exhaust, must be built so they give best performance in the same RPM range.

PS Anyone else following this is free to jump in if you don't agree.

Dan

Now for a few words about the cylinder heads that came with your 307.

I'm running the same heads on my Camaro engine; these aren't the very best head castings available, but if you already have them they're priced right! :)

These heads were meant more for economy than performance, but with a little work will run just as well as any high-dollar set of heads on the street today. (My :2cents: )

To start with, the exhaust ports are very efficient on the small Chevy and need nothing (other than a top quality valve grind) in the way of special attention. The intake side is another matter!

The stock intake valve is 1.72" in diameter at the valve head. The intake port does not flow real well either, although for the RPM's your engine should be turning, port shape isn't a major issue. The smaller ports will build low-end and mid-range torque better than the larger ports of some of the 'performance' castings. This is EXACTLY what you want for the street! But there are some improvements that can be made.

You'll need to find a good local machine shop, and go talk to them. Let them look your heads over, and ask them about putting larger valves in the heads. I'd recommend 1.94" diameter valves for the intake. 2.02" valves are available, but I'd not run them in a street engine due to shrouding issues, and loss of Air/Fuel mixture velocity at lower RPM.

Valve 'shrouding' is where the edge of the combustion chamber gets too close to the valve head, and "squeezes" down the gap that air/fuel must pass through as it goes into the chamber.

To illustrate this, take your bare 305 block and put the heads on. Then flip the thing over, and look up the bottom of the bores at the valve heads. You're going to learn a lot! See how close the edge of the bore comes to the valve, when the valve is open? Air flows around the valve head in a cone shape. Anything that interferes with the 'cone' of moving air will MURDER the ability of the port and valve to pass air/fuel into the cylinder! Which means Less Power. :eek:

I'd follow the shop's recommendation as to valve size on the exhaust as well. 1.5" dia. and 1.6" dia. valves are both available, IIRC. The whole secret here is to find a good shop and listen to them. I'd imagine that they'd be willing to talk to you and help you out with this stuff if you're truly wanting to learn, because at 14 years old you represent a lot of future business for them if they treat you right! :iceslolan

Part of the valve grind job is paying attention to the valve guides. Once again, listen to the guy in the shop. No doubt the valve guides are worn, and will need to be serviced. You might even wind up buying new valves for this reason alone - the valve stems may be worn down.

Lastly, when buying parts, make absolutely sure that the seals are stamped "Made in USA", or Canada, or Mexico. Seals made in Taiwan or China use an inferior material that turns rock hard in about 20,000 miles, and will start leaking oil like a sieve! Been there, done that. Changing out seals with an engine in the car is NO FUN.

The cylinder heads are the most important place to spend your time and money. You can't skimp on ring seal either, but when it comes to making power, the quality of the head prep will make you, or break you.

More later,
Dan

The man that I got the engine from, said that the heads that he was giving me with the 307 just had a valve job. So should I still look into getting bigger valves, and another valve job, or should I leave it as it is? Also, I would REALLLLY like to have the EFI, but I just don't know if I will be able to afford it( I don't have a job since I am not 15 yet). Since I don't have the money now though, how would it do with a 2 barrell manifold and carb until I can get the cash? Would it still run pretty good, considering I take care of it and don't trash the engine? I love cars, so my money at the moment is washing+waxing cars. This is decent money if you can find someone to do it, but there doesn't seem to be anyone that wants to pay $40 for the job($40 is compared to $60 and $80 at auto body shops). So I am needing funds, but am trying to work with what I have, a little hardwork, and SOME money. Now seeing my state of being :lol: should I still go with the valves? Thank you very much for your help so far!


Grant

At this point, you'll be fine with the valves the way they are. I might take things apart and inspect it, if you have the tools, but what you'll gain from a fresh valve job vs. new, bigger valves and such isn't enough to worry about right now.

I'd figured the engine would be in need of a valve job anyway, and that's the way I'd do it.

As far as a two-barrel carb, it certainly isn't going to hurt anything. At least you'll have an engine in running condition - you can build on it later, as you can afford to. Naturally, you'll see quite a horsepower increase when you swap to EFI, but until then, a running engine has a lot more power than one that doesn't! :p

What all do you know about the engine right now? It's had a valve job, has it ever been bored out during a rebuild? Has it ever been rebuilt?

Type to you later.
Dan

No, I don't think it has been bored, but yes, I think I am sure it has been rebuilt to some extent. Its state isn't so good, but not so bad either, the 305 is much worse than the 307 not that the 305's condition matters at all. The 307 at one time had a 350 cam, would that be a good modification to do again, or stay stock? I have heard that 305 cams wear down more than other engines and they lose a lot of power?
As I am only 14, I haven't had any prior experience with these parts, so I wouldn't know. The 307 has its lifters locked in position as of right now. Which obviously are junk, I pulled one(had to use vise grips!) and it had too much of a bowled shape to use from cam wear, so thats another part on my list! It has no oil pan, or valve covers but I am sure stock would work fine for the oil pan, and the covers dont really matter. Where should I go to for headers!? I don't want to use the manifolds, and can't use them anyway, becuase the heads were seperate from the engine, and had none on them. Your info has been great again! I look forward to your next post! :biggrin:

If the heads are off the engine, could you look for the casting number on them? There should be a number cast into the metal on the combustion chamber side of the head, up around the intake ports. It will be a number like 186 or 362, or may even be a complete GM part number. Could you tell me what the number is? Thanks.

Also, on the ends of the heads there is a specific shape cast into the metal. (You may have heard of "double hump" or "camel hump" heads.) This is so the head casting can be identified without taking anything apart. All you need is a quick glance, and the book that tells you which different shapes are for what. My 307 heads have what looks like 3 boxes stacked one on top of another, big on bottom, medium in middle and small on top. What shape are yours?

As far as the block goes, the first thing is to tear it all apart and have it "hot tanked" at your local machine shop. All the steel parts should go down to the shop together, and you'll spend about $50 or so getting it done. If the deposits of crud and gunk are heavy, spend some time with a putty knife and a screwdriver and knock the worst of it away. The hot tank will clean away the rest. The hot tank is a big vat of super-strong detergent that will clean those parts up and have 'em looking like near new! But it will eat rubber and aluminum. While the block is there at the shop, they can 'mike' it with a micrometer and see if it needs to be bored out and new pistons installed. It most likely does. Go with the smallest overbore you can get away with! Keep those cylinder walls as thick as you can.

As far as camshafts go, any of the GM high performance grinds should be fine. Talk to the guy at the counter, one of the early Corvette 327 or 350 grinds will work great. Crane, Isky, Crower, Competition Cams and all the other aftermarket outlets make good stuff too. Expect to pay around $300 for a high quality cam and lifters; you will probably find better prices than this but that gives you an idea of what to expect.

Just remember to stay conservative! You're looking for an RV type cam that will give you great low end and midrange torque. Don't worry about the high end power - the heads won't flow it anyway. And the intake won't be happy trying to deliver it either.

As far as headers, you're looking for three general things. Most important is EQUAL LENGTH primary tubes! Those are the individual tubes that carry the exhaust away from the head ports. The longer, the better as well. I'd consider 30" or so the absolute minimum length that I'd want to use. The next thing is primary tube size. A LOT of guys will try to fill you with BS on this subject - but 1 5/8" or SMALLER for primary tube diameter! Bigger tubes only hurt flow velocity and radiate heat faster. No doubt you've noticed the 'heat wrap' available for tube headers - there are no 'tube coolers' available, either. That says something. Nobody in their right mind would put a Holley Dominator carb on their stock, inline six cylinder and expect to run it on the street. The exhaust is the same way. Too big is BAD. See www.headersbyed.com for details.

Years ago, I bought the re-ring kit for my 307 from Performance Automotive Warehouse. I'd check them out, they have good prices on good stuff. You can get a whole overhaul kit for a little less than what you'll pay at the local parts outlet, and their stuff is selected with performance in mind, too.

Sorry that I haven't posted back with the numbers before now, but here they are. I had a GM 19 and a 388520. I believe that the second number is right, but if there is anything that you can notice that wouldn't be right, I would be glad to recheck it. Hope this is what your looking for. By the way, I posted this also in the Chevrolet forum(which I haven't gotten much response or help) and one guy told me to use it as a boat anchor...Then he told me that I need a 350 or 400ci! He thinks I could afford that, is he crazy? My goal for this engine is to get it just as fast as a 350, but still have the 307 block. I doubt I will make it to that goal, but it's worth a shot. Thanks again for your help!

I'll check on the numbers and get back to you. :)

Umm... As far as the boat anchor thing? This guy has never heard of the 283 Power Pack, or know a whole lot about small blocks.

What you and I have are 283 blocks with a 327 crank. The main difference between the 350 blocks and the 283 blocks is 1/8" of bore diameter.

Just 1/8".

Here's another formula, for your amusement:

Cubic Inch Displacement (CID) = Bore x Bore x .7854 x crank stroke x number of cylinders.

Bore squared, times .7854 gives you the area of the circle.

Type to you again soon!

Dan

I typed "small+block+Chevy+520+head" into the Google search engine.

Looks like you have what is known as 283 "Power Pack" heads. CONGRATULATIONS! :)

These heads are just what you want for street use; small combustion chambers (59 to 61 cc) and have a little better cooling around the exhaust valve, if I read all that right.

These are not 'emissions' style heads at all. No valve shrouding or any of that other Mickey Mouse stuff GM did in the early '70's in the name of "Clean air". [I'm not against clean air - but I don't like killing engine performance just because some bureaucrat says to.]

1.72" diameter intake valves, 1.5" diameter exhaust valves. Since it's a new valve job, I would personally disassemble and inspect it, but leave it alone unless I find something not right, like a valve leaking.

With future fuel injection and flat top pistons, expect to make about 325 peak HP and get 17 to 22 mpg, depending on your rear-end gears.

Type to you later!
Dan

Wow. 325 peak horsepower! That is just what I am looking for! Not and insane amount, but surely enough to show that guy sitting next to me who's boss. So the heads sound good, eh? The pistons that are currently in the 307 have notches cut into them for valve clearance. Do they really need that, or should I put flat-top pistons in as you mentioned? And the crank is a 327, thats cool. What about the cam, you think a 350 stock cam would be good, or the 307 stock cam? Or should it be a mild aftermarket? Oh, by the way, do you have any idea on torque numbers?! I am excited, it sounds like it will be a worthwile buildup after all!
Thanks for all the information!
Grant

Not and insane amount, but surely enough to show that guy sitting next to me who's boss.

Ah, and this leads me right into the most important concept in hot rodding... You will receive a PM tomorrow. :naughty:

Before the cam is finally chosen, you'll have to know several things - like the car the engine will go in, final drive ratio, weight of car, transmission type, and so forth.

As far as the pistons are concerned, you may be looking at flat tops. A flat top piston will have the four 'eyebrows' cut into it. A dished piston has a noticeable dish in it. You definitely want flat tops! That will help keep compression ratio up around 9.5:1 or so; there is a formula to figure out compression ratio too. :biggrin:

I'll post it when I find it.

Welcome to Automotive Engineering 101! (No pun intended)

Wow, the PM was really good! Don't worry, I followed you all the way.I re-checked the numbers on my heads and it wasn't exactly 388520 as I stated before, but wasn't far off, it was 3884520. I wouldn't expect this to make any difference but tell me if I am wrong! So...about torque and accelaration...I want lots...and lots...It's a great and horrible thing that I already have "the bug" at my age. I can't afford, but I love it! I don't have any idea of the weight of the '48 or '49 Ford that I would like to put it in, but I do have an idea of transmissions. I was thinking possibly a 700R4 for auto or T56 for manual. I realize that both are out of my price range, but I will deal with that when the time comes. How much would a port and polish job cost on my heads? After how you were explaining the importance of airflow, I realized that I want to make those babys flow! I looked them over again, and all the parts really seem to be in good condition. Really looking forward to your posts!

Grant

Yeah, it's the last 3 digits of the casting number on the head, that tell you the basics of the head you have. 520 is the 283 Power Pack head, 186 casting would have 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust valves, and so forth.

Before the cam can be chosen, you'll need to acquire the transmission. Then the question of automatic vs. manual will be answered. Actually, it would be preferable to get the truck, too. Is there a weigh station on a highway near you? You might be able to have the thing weighed there.

To get an idea of what head work will cost, just call around to your local machine shops. Take a look through the Yellow Pages, and call a couple different ones. If there's a race track in your area, or any racers, find out which shop they use. You won't need (or even want) a major port/polish; what you're after is a good general clean-up of the ports with some blending of surfaces in the area of the bowls of the ports, where the A/F mixture turns the corner.

This is easy to do! Just figure out which shop is the best for your needs, tell them what you are after as far as performance, drop your heads at their door and they will do the rest.

Velocity of the air is critical - you don't want the ports hogged out to get those big numbers on a flow bench, because that's not where the engine is going to be running [high RPM] most of the time anyway. When air velocity drops, fuel can drop out of suspension and start to puddle around the port walls, and it doesn't do anything for power!

For top street performance, all the major pieces need to be present (engine, trans, chassis) to see what you have to work with. The hottest hot rods have been completed on paper before they took shape in the garage - because of the thought and design work that went into them before they simply became another money pit. This doesn't mean you're stuck before you get your truck and the trans - but you do have to know some things for sure before you start laying down ca$h for things like camshafts and headers!

For instance, if you decide you're going to be using the 700R4 with a shift kit and 3.5 rear end gears, but all the sudden someone gives you a killer deal on a T56, that will make a big difference in which cam is optimum for your application. And if you've already laid your money down for the cam, well, you get the idea. :banghead:

More later! :smokin:

Alright, so don't jump the gun, or I lose the very little bit of money that I have. So, what should I do now? I don't want to push my dad for getting the truck, because I am lucky he is allowing me to have the engine really. Is there anything else to tend to while waiting to get a little older, and get my dad talked into that truck? Should I start saving for a boil-down of the engine, to get all that crap off? Or, should I start hunting for a transmission? If so on the transmission, should I go to a junkyard first, or is it better to bite the bullet and buy new?(that would kill the project most likely :lol: )Your posts have been a great help. Looking forward to more!

Grant

I'd start by saving the money for the hot-tanking the engine will need. It will go over a lot better to have a clean block lying around - wrapped up in a large trash bag to keep the dust and junk out - than to have a greasy, crud covered junk engine sitting in the corner looking ugly!

Keep an eye out for the transmission, but there's plenty of time. You may even be able to scrounge one from a shop's graveyard pile out in back. A junkyard will be a fair bet at best - they're in the business of making money, not helping out a n00bie hot rodder; which is too bad for them. I still frequent the salvage yard I got my first break from when I was 15. Probably spent several thousand dollars there, over the years.

I'd ask the local junkyard if they have an old core lying around, "for educational purposes". Got a school science fair coming up? :p

Personally, I use Rustoleum Hard Hat paint (in the BIG can) for painting things like valve covers, oil pans, timing chain covers, and all the other sheet metal like that. I go with black on the sheet metal and gray on the castings. The water pump gets flat white. Just look at the front cover of "Chevy Performance" book at your local auto parts outlet - that's where I got my inspiration. [The Best Ideas are stolen.]

Do you have the engine yet? Clean-up is the first priority. Then it needs any necessary machine work, like a bore job or whatever. After that, you can paint it. The sheet metal can be painted at any time.

A few words about prepping for paint: The engine paint job will only look as good as the prep work underneath the paint!

1) Clean the parts. Scrub the bejeebers outta them. If the original paint is holding to the metal and doesn't want to come off, that's fine. Just NO dirt, grease or oil.

2) Scuff the surface that will be painted. A green Scotch-brite pad works best - my wife is constantly running out of them for use in the kitchen. :iceslolan Wet-or-dry sandpaper (220 - 320 grit, use wet) gives excellent results, too.

3) If there is any bare metal, use Metalprep (TM) or something like it. Read and follow the directions. This is available at any paint supply store.

4) Buy a 99 cent Tack Cloth for use just before you spray any of the parts. Wipe down the surfaces you're about to paint, then paint 'em. This will remove all traces of dust and other stuff that gets into spraycan jobs.

Using this method, I've gotten some real professional looking jobs done with minimum cash outlay. If the sheet metal or casting surface is extra, extra cruddy, DOW oven cleaner works wonders. Removes old paint, varnishes, cruds, slops, etc. etc. and all for about $2.25 a can!

Just wash and rinse thoroughly after using oven cleaner, and WEAR GLOVES! This stuff will burn your hands royally. BTDT. Didn't like it.

Good luck, and Happy building!
Dan

Edit:

Reading back through the posts, I noticed that your dad restored a Mustang, and you have that 305....... And the 307 should be there by spring of next year.

Seems to me you might have some trade-able parts from that 305; after all, it uses the 3.48" stroke 350 crank, and what are the casting numbers on the heads? What is the overall condition of the engine? Do you have things like the oil pan, valve covers, etc. to practice painting on? You may not have much, but you do have a little swapping material here. It's still an asset.

Is your Dad a car guy? Fords his favorites? Or did he just want an original 'stang?

Lastly, a word about your studies: You're gonna need the math in this game, to ever be any good at it. Take computer courses too. The schools won't teach you the things that you will need with fuel injection, but are kind of a starter course you can at least build on. If your teacher is any good, that is. If your school offers an electronics course, take it. You'll really need it bad when it comes time to dive in to GM's ECM stuff.
Fortunately, you're 14 and still have some time to get your feet wet in it.
The deeper you get into hot rodding, the more you'll need skills with Algebra and Geometry. In fact, there comes a point that you can't go on without it.

Discussions of rod ratio, piston speed relative to crank angle, valvetrain geometry, and all the really in-depth topics that separate the truly knowledgeable people from the ricers, well, those topics can't be discussed without referring to mathematical formulas and terms!

Just look at some of the formulas I've posted so far - those are the easy, teaser ones. And we haven't even discussed the subject of making the car handle, yet! That's an engineering discipline in itself.

Are you in Algebra, by any chance?

Dan

Yes, I am in my second year of Algebra, Algebra 2/Geom. Don't worry about the painting. After restoring the Mustang, I think the painting is under control(not that you knew this). I was in charge of all the interior door panel painting, and the man that gave me the engine is an old-school rodder thats retired and he paints cars. He is the one who painted our Mustang. I am really wishing I knew how to post a pic right about now... Also, if I wanted to, I could spray it with a gun instead of a can, you know like with the same paint as the car so it will match. I dunno though, I have the laquer thinner, and am using it to clean parts. It works great! My dad likes all cars, he has a Mustang though becuase he has had it since high-school. It was my granpa's. The 305 engine is in bad bad shape. When I remove the oil pan, I found a chunk of piston, metal shavings, a gear from the oil pump, and just some really disgusting oil that I don't think was EVER changed. The valve covers had small dents, and the edges are bent, so they would take too much work for what they are. The oil pan had that disgusting sludge stuck in it, but I suppose you could reuse it if needed. I will save the pistons just in case, 'cause you never know when you might use them. Also, on getting the old paint and grime off the engine, what about a sand-blaster. Had any experience with them? Are they worth the trouble, or a waste of time? Once again, thank you for all the advice.

Grant

I've used a sand blaster at home and work, they will do the job on the castings. The sheet metal parts will get badly pitted and tend to warp, though. The blast media acts like millions of tiny hammers hitting the surface. It sure cleans a casting, but the thinner sheet metal will distort, in my experience.

Prepare to clean up a mess if you use one of the $20 guns from the hardware store. Blasting material goes everywhere unless you have a booth to keep it contained.

Will write more later,
Dan

I was just thinking, pics would probably help, eh? I will take some on our digital, then try to post 'em up! I will take the 305 first, and get the 307 asap. By the way, I was working on my 307 this past weekend, removed all lifters, cleaned and greased them. I got pistions and everything free and moving. I'll go get those pictures now. Write later.


Grant

I just realized that I don't think I posted any specs on the engine. When I checked the number in the book, it listed as the '69 Pontiac small block 307 with 200 horsepower and 9.0:1 compression. I don't want to go with a roller motor, simply because I do not have the money. I would like to get 300-325 horses out of it with a cam, the head swap, headers and other small things. I doubt I will make it, but I will try to shoot high! The 284 power pack heads have had larger valves installed for use with unleaded gasoline. Found some cool aluminum valve covers and matching air cleaner that a guy had on his 350 and wanted to sell because they oxidized. I will put that zoop sealer on them, and the shine should last. Not that asthetics matter, but they are still cool! I think I will go with bosch plugs, +2's maybe? I will have the crank re-balanced, get the cam bought and in, and hope for the best. I am thinking on using a stock 350 cam, more power without the really rough idle. Hope those specs help some. Looking forward to your posts.

Grant

I would like to get 300-325 horses out of it with a cam, the head swap, headers and other small things. I doubt I will make it, but I will try to shoot high! The 284 power pack heads have had larger valves installed for use with unleaded gasoline.

Grant

You should hit your goal with little trouble! This is the range of .9 to 1.0 HP per cubic inch, which is easily attainable with the proper choice of intake, cam and exhaust.

KEEP THE HEADS YOU HAVE!!!! These are EXACTLY what you need for street use, and with the bigger valves (assuming 1.94" intakes) they just can't be improved any more, IMO. :naughty:

Could you verify valve head size for me? I imagine the intake valves were enlarged from 1.72" to 1.94", and the exhaust valves are still 1.50" in diameter. This is how the "1.94" heads came, when referring to valve sizes and not casting numbers.

So far you are absolutely on the right track. All you have to do now is select the intake, exhaust and cam for the RPM range you intend to run.

Header primary pipes should be no larger than 1 5/8" dia, and I'd give strong consideration to 1 1/2" dia primary pipes, unless you wind up with an ultra-light chassis. Best thing to do is contact Headers by Ed.

Intake is already pretty much taken care of. Two barrel manifold to start, then a later upgrade to fuel injection. Those will be stock systems, or modified (tuned) stock systems, so......

Pay EXTREME attention to the camshaft you install! The best advice I can give here is to start doing some major research. Pick the cam that will work best with your intended future FI set-up. You'll need to know whether the FI system will be Speed-Density or MAF. The two-barrel carb and manifold will be an interim intake system until you get the FI system, so I'd give it a good clean-up and maybe a rebuild kit, but not worry about trying to 'optimize' it.

Tull Systems in California does FI set-ups; they may have a website. I'd ask their recommendations on what to run as far as the cam. A stock grind is a safe bet, but there are a lot of stock performance 350 grinds and some will work better than others with FI, due to things like reversion and overlap. I say ask someone who knows more about these things than I do - the major cam companies would be a good start.

Stay with a hydraulic grind, naturally. Modern hydraulic cams can be ground with as wild a profile as you'd ever want for the street, and we're talking about making power in the 1800 to 5500/6000 RPM range, or so.

Too much lift on a cam profile just robs power from the engine to force the valve down further against the spring - and I'd rather use the power to turn the rear wheels than mash the valve down more than it needs to be to properly fill the combustion chamber! To re-state this: At lower RPM ranges, the valve does not have to come off the seat as far to properly fill the cylinder. The fuel/air velocity isn't as high at 3000 RPM as it is at 6500 RPM, and the valve is less of a restriction at the lower RPM.

I will explain this in more detail later - lunch break is over. :smokin:

I know that I can get major horsepower from the cam, but I would rather not have that un-appealing lope that can barely stay running. That's why I am planning on the stock 350 cam, for a little bit of grunt, but not much lope. Not too much that the magnaflows can't cancel out. :p I added all my parts that i plan on using, and it added up to $537. Not too bad, eh? I can't wait to hear it run(not that I will ever get it running!). I don't know how soon the FI system would come, but probably before I would even be able to get the truck, so It might never have the 2 barrel on it, I still don't know. Thanks for the response, it makes me want to work more and more on the project.

Grant

I was going to offer my two cents but you seem to have the right guy on the job :)

I was going to suggest a Xtreme Energy Cam from Comp Cams... RPM range 1300 - 5600. And as for a tranny I was going to recomend a Street Figher TH350 Chev Tranny, the downside to this is that is will hurt the wallet greatly, Kevlar and heat treateted... You just know is gonna be a pretty penny... But the way to go about that is exactly what was recommened by Dan. You have time to look for the tranny thus you never know you might find a great deal a bit later on, Or you might have the money then.

Willie
Good Luck

Yeah, a lopey cam would be one with LOTS of duration and overlap - intended for higher RPM use. Not what one really wants on the street, because of the way it kills the torque curve in the lower RPM ranges.

A cam that will really get you off the line will also have a smooth, or at least good, idle quality.

Between idle and 5000 RPM or so, I'd think about .350" to .400" should be plenty of cam lobe lift. Maybe even less, with the bigger intake valve. The cylinder just doesn't need to have the valve shoved way down out of the way, at the air flows you'll see at street RPM. And the extra movement of the valve costs power!

The valve duration (degrees of cam rotation that the valve is open) is primarily what causes the 'lopey idle' associated with too much cam.

The whole reason for lots of lift and duration is that at higher RPM, the TIME available for filling the cylinder with fuel/air is reduced. This is how the engineers compensate for less time to fill the cylinder.

Overcamming an engine is one of the most common mistakes made, and it's almost always in the quest for that big peak HP number. But what most guys forget is that to get that big number, they sacrifice power below about 3000 RPM. In street race terms, this means that the guy in the Honda next to you at the stoplight may be making 250-300 HP, but the torque curve doesn't even start climbing until 3500 RPM. So unless he's got 5.37 to 1 gears in his transaxle, you'll come off the line first, and be eating his lunch by the next stoplight! All he can do about it is "The Ricer Flyby". :loser:

$537 is a good number, especially for your first efforts! And you're on the right track. Here's a little, true story:

My friend Kevin has a '68 Fastback Mustang. 302 4V (5.0L four-barrel Holley carb) engine with a stock rebuild and a set of headers, done by his dad in the garage. Back in high school, this was by far the fastest car in the parking lot. There were a couple other cars, that had a whole lot of money dumped into the engine bay that were hard-pressed just to keep up with that thing. One guy had a '63 or so Chevy II with a built, and I mean BUILT, 327. Built to the tune of $3500 in engine work alone! Align-bored main bearing saddles, gear drive, big Crane (or was it Isky? No matter.) camshaft, high-rise single-plane intake manifold, ported heads, headers, oh bleep, you name it.

Kevin's car would waste it off the line, every time. The guy had to play catch-up, and never got ahead unless they were doing a rolling start out on the highway.

So why was this? Back to Math Class: You know how to take an average of several numbers, right? Add up all the numbers, then divide the sum by the number of samples. OK, let's discuss that. (I'm pulling the HP numbers out of thin air, to explain the overall concept.)

Starting at 1500, measure the HP of both engines at every 50 RPM increment, up to 4500 RPM. i.e.; 302 makes 75 HP @ 1500, 82 HP @1550, 88 HP @1600, 93 HP @1650, and so forth. All the way up to 4500 RPM.

Now, let's look at that built 327. At 1500 RPM with the big cam and intake, OH BLEEP! We're only making 49 HP at 1500 RPM!! 1550 is a little better, we see 56 HP. 1600 gets us to 61 HP. Why? Because that 327 was set up to run between 3500 and 6500 PRM power band! We don't see much of that RPM range in town - only once we get out to the highway, and the engine gets revved up. But with those 3.30 to 1 rear end gears, the engine only runs about 2900 RPMs when cruising down the highway in 4th gear, at the speed limit.

Taking the average HP number of both engines for the stated RPM range, which one would come out higher? The 302. The 327 has a bigger PEAK, but that's just one single reading on the chart. The 302 comes out with a higher AVERAGE, below 4500 RPM. Right where it's needed most. :iceslolan

See how important it is to match the engine, trans and gear ratios to the intended use? And what can happen when the engine power band is too high to be of any practical use on the street?

I know in my old Isky catalog, before they'd recommend a cam, they had to know the drive ratio in the rear end. If you have a certain 350 camshaft in mind, find out what the gear ratio usually was in the car equipped with that engine.

You're well on your way to learning a whole lot. And what fun it is! BTW, when I was your age, I was so badly addicted to cars I didn't have time for drugs or getting in trouble. Might let that idea slip out to your parents.... :tongue:

Whew! Will write more later. :smokin:

Dan

I was going to suggest a Xtreme Energy Cam from Comp Cams... RPM range 1300 - 5600.
Willie
Good Luck

That is EXACTLY the right kind of cam for a street engine!

WW, have you seen any articles or comparison tests between that cam and others like it?

I don't believe Consumer Reports has ever done THAT one.... Too Bad, too. :cheers:

Whoa! Lots of information, but I think I followed it. So don't go with a 350 cam? Look for a good low RPM xtreme energy cam? How much will this run me? I hope not too much, but if it is a little bit of money, I will start saving. If I do have a fairly strong, high torgue cam, are there any other components that would need to be upgraded to handle the power? What about oil pumps, I already plan on a new water pump, but what about the oil pump? Long shaft, short shaft. Aluminum, or iron? So many questions! Great help with this engine so far though, really thanks a lot. I was thinking 3:42 gears, so what cam would go good with that?

Grant

That is EXACTLY the right kind of cam for a street engine!

WW, have you seen any articles or comparison tests between that cam and others like it?

I don't believe Consumer Reports has ever done THAT one.... Too Bad, too. :cheers:


No I dont belive I have... I would be interested in seeing them though.
Im only working on a 3.1L V6 right now, stock enigine for my 91 sunbird. But I have been looking at other things. 3.1 just doesnt have what I want :(

I can't say whether or not to go with the 350 cam yet; I'm saying "Keep Your Options Open". A good cam and lifters will cost about $300 or so, stock items are a little less expensive, but not much.

Personally, I wouldn't choose the cam for the engine until I knew what the rest of the car was going to be like: aka auto or manual trans, final drive gear ratio, about how much the whole thing weighs, etc.

If you already have a cam handy that fits your needs, go ahead and use it. But if you're going to plunk down ca$h for new stuff - you want to be pretty sure you choose the best cam for your chassis/engine combination.

If worst comes to worst, the cam isn't THAT hard to change in a small-block Chevy, with the engine still in the car. You have to pull out the radiator, but I've done it. Just try to avoid the situation of "Gee, I wonder if I would have been better off with Brand X cam instead of Brand Y" after you've got your money spent and the thing is installed in the car.

And when installing a new or used cam, I always install new lifters. NEVER install used lifters, unless the used lifters still have their 'crown' on the bottom, AND the cam lobe still has it's 'crown', AND the original lifter is installed on the same lobe that it came off of! Mis-matched used parts will quickly self-destruct, due to the enormous forces applied between the cam and lifter faces.

That's all for now,
Dan

Im only working on a 3.1L V6 right now, stock enigine for my 91 sunbird. But I have been looking at other things. 3.1 just doesnt have what I want :(

I have the same engine (3.4L though) in my wife's Montana.

Have you been to http://moates.net site yet? Great stuff for GM fuel injection! Not expensive, either! :smokin:

I apologize for the late post, I have been on vacation to a little Inn in Indiana. WHOOOO!! On the way their, there were so many old Ford trucks with what appeared to just be surface rust on they way there! Almost made me cry! :crying: Oh well, now I know where to go when I have money, and my dad allows me to get a car. I was thinking, how cool would it be to go old school with the looks of the engine, and smooth the block? I think it would be sweet, I am thinking about going for it. But I have to get the block boiled first before I do anything. Thanks again for the help!

Grant

anytime.... Sorry I couldnt be anymore help :rolleyes:

Good Luck

I think we've covered the topic of the engine pretty well. Another subject I'd like to bring up is suspension, and choosing wheels and tires in particular. Brakes will also be mentioned.

Most guys will go out and buy/install the biggest wheels and tires they can fit into the fenderwells. Then they'll set about 45 degrees of negative camber on the front wheels; and heat or cut the springs to slam the car on the ground.

They may be stylin', but this is h3ll on performance! A wheel/tire combination is just like a gyroscope. Same goes for the rotating mass of the brake - the disc or the drum. Weight of the combination is just as important as the width of the tire tread - and most guys completely overlook this point!

More later, time to go to work!
Dan

I would like to go with about 17" wheels, and a mustang II front suspension. I don't know what to do with the rear!? I would also like the truck to be as low as possible without losing ride quality. So not to the ground, but a 2" drop probably. Thanks for the post.

Grant

Here's a little something to try: Call the local tire store and ask the guy behind the counter if he knows what the rims WEIGH.......

Grab a bathroom scale, if you will, and set some stock-type tires and stock rims on it. Do a few sets. This will give you a baseline of what a factory steel wheel weighs, and what a generic 70 series tire will weigh. These are just two factors you're trying to beat, when choosing a "High Performance" tire. Lighter is Better! As I mentioned before, you're driving down the road with what is practically four gyroscopes on each corner of the car. And the heavier they are, the more they'll resist a change in direction (or velocity) of motion.

Let's take an example of the BF Goodrich Radial T/A. If you look in their catalog, you'll see MANY sizes of this tire. What works on one car may not work on another!

I'll write more soon. My computer is showing signs of cutting my internet connection.

Dan

I am starting to get psyched up about the engine, got some X-mas money today from my aunt + uncle. This will give me enough to boil the engine, I think. I hope to get a job doing some body work on a '60s Ford Bronco, which will bring some good money in if I get the job. At least I will have my engine boiled soon though! After that, the engine will be at my house, and waiting for a HP makeover! I will look into that low-rpm cam, but I don't want to lose gas mileage on the highway because of this. Can you confirm if I would or not? Glad to be back in business with the engine. Still looking for a good four barrel carb, and if not I'll stick with the 2. Thanks for the help so far, and I hope to get started up on it again!

Grant

A good RV cam won't cost you any gas mileage, as it will be pretty close to the stock cam specs. It may vary 1 or 2 mpg, either way.

Actually, I'm running a stock cam out of a 2-barrel 327 in the 307 in my Camaro. I was a little short on cash at the time, and this cam passed the "razor blade" test - which means all the lobes still had their crown -
so I put a new set of lifters on top of this cam. It sounds great; in fact most people refuse to believe I've got "just a stock" cam in there!

The stock profile is meant to provide a somewhat lazy'er (sp?) valve action, due to warranty and reliability issues. Without choking off the engine entirely.

An aftermarket RV cam grinder is less concerned about factory warranties and more concerned about producing a cam lobe profile that will help the engine breathe it's best, for a given RPM range.

Hard to believe it's been just over a month since I wrote to this thread - hope you're still watching for it!

Will write more, soon.

Good to hear that there is someone out there who is seriously thinking about building a 307. I have a '71 Malibu with 35k original on it and I didn't want to swap to a 350 because of the low original miles and excellent overall mechanical shape. Everyone told me to go w/ a 350 though. In my opinion the 307 is a great compromise motor. Everyone bashes it, but no one bashes the 283. The 307 is a stroked 283!!! Also, with gas creeping above $2/gallon, 20+ mpg makes a lot of sense on a daily driver.

My cam advice is this: Don't go too hot. I, on the advice of a buddy of my dad's that used to hot rod old chevys in the early '60s, put in a 327/350 hp cam from Crane. It's a 222/222 with .447 lift. My Chevelle now has no power at all until about 3000-3500 rpms. This could be because I have not swapped to headers yet, or it could be because of the tall (2.73) gears and stock converter, but overall it had more overall go before. I'm thinking of taking it out for a later 350 swap into a '47 Ford, and for now I'm going to try something like a 210/210 cam and see how that goes. I'm not sure if it's worth putting headers on first and trying those or just getting rid of that cam for now. I'm also thinking about springing and pocket porting the heads, but with the 165cc Dart heads or the Pro Topline Torker heads going for 550/pair complete, I might opt for that instead. Speaking of, if anyone has experience (+/-) with these heads, let me know.

Good luck, and long live the 307!

This is 68_Stang, I just changed internet providers, so got a new name. I am sad to say that the engine is STILL not at my house yet, due to multiple excuses. Doesn't stop the planning though, I am going to go with a 4 barrel air cleaner with a 2 barrel adapter,stock of some older camaro or such, and then if I get a 4 barrel later, I can still use my custom air cleaner. I say custom, because I plan to chop it all up, and run exhaust tubing(3") for a cold air intake, for better performance. Then I can fiberglass it until i like the look and shape.
Glad to be back on the forums!!
Grant

So do you have a 4 bbl. intake for that or not? I'd recommend not messing too much w/ fabbing a fancy air cleaner unless you have a decent intake. You can get an Edelbrock performer for 100 new or cheaper used.

And get that motor over to your place! Good luck.

Yea, I have a 4 barrel intake. Where can I get that edlbrock for $100? Sounds interesting if i can. Thanks, and I am working on the engine, will get it when the ground dries out.
Grant

Ok, so intake is ready to go. An edelbrock performer 4 bbl. intake is actually 109 through Jegs. Summitt is about the same. You can get a factory remanufactured Edelbrock 600 cfm 4 bbl. from Jegs for 180 w/ a manual choke. The Edelbrock carb is nice because you pretty much can just bolt it on and go w/o messing around w/ too many adjustments.

<Bump>

I noticed the last post was in February, is there still any life in this thread? Did you ever get the engine to your house?

Dan

Yep, the engine is at my house, and I have spent most of the day disassembling it. I have the block bare, and ready to get boiled. Still looking for that right cam. I saw that comp cams had a $100 cam and lifter set, but I think its over now. I don't know much about the specs of them, so I figured I better not just buy one. I want a bit of lope, but not to where its un-runnable. I am going to tackle the heads with a port & polish job soon, and she should be running like a champ! I just want it smooth, and able to smash those hondas! Write back soon.

Edelbrock is real good about selling cam packages that are matched to their manifolds. This is the way to go, IMO. Especially for a first engine. There's lots of other stuff to learn, and spend your time on other than wondering if the cam is matched to the rest of your application.

Great! Glad to see your back in the thread. I have pics, but can't post them because they are too big :mad: . Right now I am working on the heads, polishing the bowls, and porting the tunnels. I hope this will help it breathe easier. I have that 4-barrel manifold that I told you about, and I don't really have the money for another, so I hope this one is good enough. I still don't have the block miked yet though, so I'm kind of at a stand-still on it, which is why I was working the heads. Even though my dad hasn't had time to get my motor miked, I have still had some fun car-work. I am working at an old-timer's garage on a '49 Ford. It may not be the best car, but it gave me a chance to learn to weld with both gas, and ark. Hope it will turn out as a neat custom. Once again, thanks for the reply, maybe it will encourage me to get on it(the '49 has distracted me).

Grant

Can you post a picture of the '49? What a great way to start in the hobby!

Which 4-bbl manifold do you have, again? I'll search the thread, but is there a casting number, if it's stock?

Been so long I can't remember! (Happens as you age. :iceslolan )

Here are two links that I strongly recommend you print and study carefully.

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html discusses the relationship between torque and horsepower.

http://www.dur.ac.uk/r.g.bower/PoM/pom/node12.html discusses 0 to 60 times.

It took me a few read-throughs before I really grasped it all. But it sure helps one understand what it takes to build a quick machine.

Happy reading! :)

Edit: Here's one more. http://www.headersbyed.com discusses the exhaust side of the engine. The $22 Header InfoPak is worth the price - it's a text book in itself! Explains some common mis-conceptions about headers, such as "bigger is better". It ain't true with cams or carbs, and it ain't true with headers either. Once again, the whole package must be matched together, for optimum performance.

I didn't see where I'd put these links in, earlier in this thread. Forgive me if it's a re-post. :)

Alright, I'll need a little time. That is alot of information. Very in-depth and valuable. Thanks