Cold start problem / cold engine is hesitating

Car type: 1991 Celica, 3S-GE motor, 2000 ccm, ST182, M/T, W/O A/C.

Symptom: When starting a cold motor, the motor spins up and works ok for a 1-2 second (rpm is around 1700-2000), then stalls (with the symptom of misfire). After that it doesn't start anymore; when the ignition key is turned on, every time it spins up, hears a normal motor noise for a second, the crankling stops, and the motor stalls again. After an 1-2 hour, I can start the motor normally, the idle is ok, but when I press the gas pedal, the motor is bogging. When it is warm, everything is ok. After ignition, the rpm is around 1600-1800 for a second, the normalizes around 1200. After warming up the motor, it falls to 800-900. Everything seems to normal.

When starting the cold motor, it doesn't react for the gas pedal. It stalls.

My questions: Is this model has EGR valve? Is the fuel evaporative system? What are the differences between the 3S-GTE and the 3S-GE, because my repair manuals are for the MR2?

The air filter is clean, fuel pressure is ok, no diagnostic code stored in computer, system seems to be ok.

Any hint? Whant can I check? I someone has the Haynes repair manual, please, inform me: is there any infos about the vacuum system/hoses/sensors?

Thanks!

Damn, that sounds like a tricky problem. I'll try and answer some of your questions.
1) I have the Haynes manual for that engine but I am not selling it. You can buy it by choosing the manual for the 86-89 Celica. I'll have a look at it when I get home and if it has any details on the problem I'll let you know. And yes, it has information on the vacuum system/hoses/sensors.
2) As far as I know the difference between the 3S-GE and the 3S-GTE is that the GTE has a turbo fitted. So you'll have all the normal differences that that entails: lower compression cylinder, wiring loom, air induction pipe work, etc...
3) Yes the 3S-GE has an EGR valve mounted under the plenum chamber, close to the throttle body. It's bolted under underneath and has a diaphragm sticking out to the rear, towards the firewall. it looks kind of like a mushroom on it's side. But don't worry about the EGR valve, it really isn't important and only helps with emission control. Due to all the exhaust gases going into it it always becomes blocked after about 40,000 kilometres and no one ever bothers unblocking it as it makes no difference to the running of the engine. I bought some extractors for my car and they didn't have any where to connect the EGR pipe (runs from the EGR valve, along the side of the cylinder head and about the distributor, and connects to the exhaust manifold), so I just removed the EGR and junked it. The car runs fine. But if it makes you happy clean it out or buy a new one as it is sure to be blocked solid.
4) The engine does use a fuel evaporative system for excess fuel that is pumped through but not needed. You'll see a pipe running from the fuel rail to what looks like a large metal can bolted to the side of the engine bay. A second pipe will be running from the top of this can also. This can is the evaporative canister.

As for your engine problem. I would say that the problem is either with the cold-start valve or the cold-start injector. Contrary to what you will have heard it is possible, though very hard, to flood a fuel injection engine. I believe in this case you are getting way too much fuel in ratio to the amount of air coming in. That is why you have to wait a couple of hours before trying it again, to let the excess fuel evaporate.
The cold-start injector is for very cold conditions only. We are talking past minus and then some. It shoves in a great dollop of fuel when the engine is started from VERY cold. This should shut off almost straight away but if it doesn't and keeps going till the engine is hot it would explain the over fuelling problem. Also it may be kicking even though the car is not cold enough to warrant it. The injector is on it's own in the front of the plenum chamber about half way along. Before starting the engine, while it is completely cold, remove the wire coupling from the injector and the fuel feed pipe (tape the pipe up or you will get fuel everywhere when you try to start it). Try the engine, if it's starts fine then turn it off and reconnect the fuel feed pipe only. If it start ok again then the problem is the computer or sensor sending it information to activate when it shouldn't. If it doesn't then the injector is stuck open and the injector is the problem (when the engine is warm and running the ECU will be able to compensate for the excess fuel by lowering the amount to the other 4 injectors). Unless you live in the Arctic circle, Canada, or New Zealand (Baaa..aa), you can probably just disconnect the cold-start injector and forget about it, I am not lying the weather has to be real cold to warrant it.

The cold-start valve is a wax plug in the throttle body that is heated by the water system. While the engine is cold (the water is cold) the plug allows a richer mixture in, by regulating the air. If this was stuck on you would start fine when cold. If it is stuck off... well odd things happen.

Sorry I can't be of any more help.
I have attached a photo of the cold-start injector so you know where it is.

>1) I have the Haynes manual for that engine but I am not selling it.
>You can buy it by choosing the manual for the 86-89 Celica. I'll have a
>look at it when I get home and if it has any details on the problem I'll
>let you know. And yes, it has information on the vacuum
>system/hoses/sensors.

I'll order the Haynes repair manual when I'll get my Visa card, but be carefull: I need it for the 3S-GE engine, for the 5th generation Celica. Is it yours for this model? I think, there is a book named: "Chilton's Toyota Celica 1986-93 Repair Manual (Chilton's Total Car Care)". Please check it, is there a vacuum system diagram with the TESTING procedure in your book?

>3) Yes the 3S-GE has an EGR valve mounted under the plenum
>chamber, close to the throttle body. It's bolted under underneath

My model is for Switzerland (as I know), and as I see, there are no catalytic converter (no O2 sensor), no EGR system and no fuel evaporative system. Better said: I cannot locate theese components. Other infos: My engine is with MAP sensor, with T-VIS system, and there are one more vacuum sensor, which measures directly before the intake valve, after the T-VIS block.

I have a repair doc for MR 2, with 3S-GTE and 5S-FE; there writes at every malfunction to check the vacuum system and the EGR valve. This was the reason why I asked for it...

The throttle position sensor is checked: ok
The T-VIS VSV checked: ok
The cold start wire was removed for testing with fuel lines connected: no difference. But there can be a fuel leaking from the cold start injector!

But as I said, my problem is not only the starting, but after, when the engine is cold, it hesitates when I depress the gas pedal. The engine (water) temperature instrument shows the 2nd value, and the engine NOT WORKING correctly. When it reaches the 3rd value, everything is ok. But the 2nd value is in normal temp range! With other words, I must drive the engine for a 10 minutes to get the proper operation.

Water temp. instrument figure:

1--2-----3----------4

1. - minimal operating temp.
2. - temp. at the engine is hesitating
3. - normal operating temp.
4. - maximal allowed

>The cold-start valve is a wax plug in the throttle body that is heated
>by the water system. While the engine is cold (the water is cold) the
>plug allows a richer mixture in, by regulating the air. If this was stuck
>on you would start fine when cold. If it is stuck off... well odd things
>happen.

I had no infos for this before. Thanks. In MR2 repair books, there are no details concerning this. What are You said? When the water is cold, it allows a richer mixture? Then it gives a smaller amount of air?

>I have attached a photo of the cold-start injector so you know where
>it is.

Here are my photos of 3S-GE:

http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062578765.jpg
http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062587517.jpg
http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062579070.jpg
http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062579001.jpg
http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062578903.jpg

Check them out, and if You know, identify the sensors and the cold start injector time switch. Check out your book, too.

Thanks!

Check out the following picture:

http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062587517.jpg

1. water temp. sensor for the instrument - with one wire
2. in every temp. condition (it was measured at 20 C and at 80 C) it showes: 74 Ohm. What is this sensor for? It has two wires.
3. water temp. sensor for the ECU - it has two wires
4. from 20 C to 80 C it showes 0-2 Ohm, with non-linear characterystic (also located in water hose). What is this?! It has one wire only - the second is the chassis.
5. ISC valve
6. A big question mark. It has only one wire. Sensors from 1-4 are all in the water pipe. This is on the motor head.

If You find anything concerning theese stuffs in the book, please, let me know.

Okay "drdma".
Yes the 3S-GE engine does have all of the stuff that you say your engine does not have. You also say in your last post that your engine has lots of stuff that is not mentioned in the book. There is of course a valid reason for all of this mate.
You DON'T have a 3S-GE engine!

And no, it is not some odd version of the 3S-GE engine only released in Switzerland. It just isn't a 3S-GE.

Going from your photos it isn't clear what engine it is. Maybe someone else here will recognise it.

Good luck with your problems.

In reply to your last post, sensor number 6 is your oil temperature sensor. I think I know what number 2 is but give me time to check it out first.

But it is a 3S-GE. :)

Check out theese pics.

This is mine:

http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062579070.jpg

And this is from the net. Mine is older a bit, but on all pictures a T-VIS block is visible:

http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/3sge.jpg

And there is the original writing "3S-GE" on the motor.

Thank You for the sensor No. 6 identification.

Check out the No. 4 sensor on this pic. Here it has number No. 1. There is visible its white connector.

http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062579001.jpg

Ok, check again the No. 2 and No. 4 sensor (http://www.thurzol.org.yu/~drdma/post-22-1062587517.jpg).

If You found something in the book, please, tell me the sensor characteristics, so I can check them.

Ok, here is a picture from the original book; this is the schematic view of my 3S-GE. This is from a 182 Celica.

A compression checking diagram is also here; yesterday I checked the compression, the ignition timing, the T-VIS butterflies; everything was found ok. But the problem is the same.

The problem is fixed: it was a low pressure fuel pump. Replaced.