This is not to put down anyones car personally... or sound hateful, my best hunting buddy is a only will have Japanese cars/bikes...

I personally don't Hate any car or race of people...

What grips me, is all these kids spurting off how they like to kill off V8's in thier rice rockets, meaning of course how they like to pick on the old fashion "LOW technoligy American V8's with those red necks in them who still think they rule the streets..

I know there are a few 12 and 11 second jap cars running the streets... in every state in many cities... but remember for every one 11 second jap car running the streets, there is a 7-8 second American car somewhere

Just Remember, those old low tech V8 are much more closer to stock than a dinky 2.0 or 3.0 engine with a million tons of turno boost...

These guys running inline 4-6's in Toyota and Mitsubishi's brag they have a much higher tech engine because they have more HP per cubic inch...
Forced induction, or superchargers, Turnos are nothing new, been around since the early 1900's, some of the engines in the 1940's aircraft where fiorced induction, made 2000 and up to 3000 hp in a 7000 lb aircraft (like the Bearcat & F4U-4 Corsair)


20 lbs of boost might give a Supra or 3000GT-VR4 500-600 hp... but my 440 would achive 1500-2000 Rear weel streetable hp with the boost the jap cars run...
Turbo kits of big blocks are custom and cost around $10,000 for a setup, that counts a good intercooler, not counting changing pistons to lower compression and other goodes..

I not deaf to the new cars, and the old saying that
"There is no substitute for cubic inches" is not true in the least...
but with the best mods, V8's Rule

Those jap car with overdriven Turbos, maybe a little spray,,,,, "THERE IS NOTHING MORE YOU CAN DO TO MAKE MORE WORTHWHILE POWER" becaue your almost built to the MAX....

a Simple mild built 454 Chevy can go a long wat... 500-600 is easy...you can get 800-1000 hp out of them with NO BOOST.... NO SPRAY
Just imagine a custom 20 lbs boost Twin Turbo kit for a 454.....
Can you say "no jap engine on the "plannet Earth" could make as much power"

Another Big block car, say a 440 mopar that is 500 cubes, running new alu heads and mods, making 650hp, properly set with a 400 hp NOS... could make over 900 ponies... add 20 lbs of boost and 2000 rear weel hp EASY.
alot of stress yes, but 8 beefy connecting rods to absorb the power, not just 4 or 6 dinky rods to absorb 500-600 hp

________________________________


On the other side of the token, I go to car shows... old time race people I knew, still think the Detriot V8's in the muscle cars rule, one of my friend thinks those old stock muscle cars are enoguh to take on any new cars and esp jap turbo cars...

I say "you might be suprised!", even some of those old 90-93 Eagle Talons, Plymouth Lasers, Mitsubishi Eclips turbos can be made to run high 12's with around $1000 invested.... no bad.

Most of those old standard stock muscle cars people fix up and leave pure stock would be no match for a new stock EVO...


To be honnest, more jap car people seem to talk trash about the American V8's than vice Versa,
Almost like they are declearing a kind of war on American Muscle cars in thier own mind..

they talk trash about how that 5.0 had to "spray" the motor to outrun his Mazda...

but the more you add mods, to both, the more the bigger engine has an advantage.

I say let him take off him bottle, and you remove your turbo, run pure engine...

A time will come when more and more turbo kits will be available for older and modern V8's at lesser prices, what are the small engine jap car people going to do them... to catch up.?

Wait, I know, sell 357 magnum revolver upgrade kids for the jap turbo cars to shoot out the tires of the turbo American v8's car.... an Answer to everything.

scott

Man, I'm all for V8s and american muscle cars... but a post like yours is gonna stir up alot of commotion here on the boards.

First the flames will come... then the name calling... then the mods will step in... and they'll start warning people.... then it'll flame back up, and somebody is going to get banned.

:(

Originally posted by Donham


20 lbs of boost might give a Supra or 3000GT-VR4 500-600 hp... but my 440 would achive 1500-2000 Rear weel streetable hp with the boost the jap cars run...


This quote has been used so many times in various forms :rolleyes: ... Havent heard of many 1500-2000 rwhp street cars though, any examples?

this is no where near 2000hp... but its pretty damn sweet none-the-less. :D

http://www.hotrod.com/hotrod/roadtests/p166873_image_large.jpg
Green Slime (http://www.hotrod.com/roadtests/89158/)

First off, I can see your points.

Second, you'll have to understand that it is not all about horsepower.

You're right about the fact that I can build up a V8 to tremendous power using the same techniques used in beefing up a smaller engine.

What you fail to point out however, is that in a street-car, or even in a race car, you have to have an effective way of putting all that power to the ground.

I would rather drive a 1,000HP Supra than a 1,000HP Camaro anyday. The added torque the Camaro has will make for an entertaining rainy-day drive. The Supra, on the other hand, though probably having prodigious TQ itself, will more than likely be able to put down its power better. I understand that aftermarket suspension mods do exist. But mod for mod, the Supra will have better handling.

It's not about the weight either, since the Supra weighs in at about 3400LBS.

Did you know that an aftermarket spring for a 2000 Mustang can fit a 1974 Mustang also?

The Supra's smaller-displacement motor allows you the convenience of having a peaky powerband. Though some would consider this a disadvantage, in high-HP motors, this is actually an advantage. It allows you to have that "low-HP" powerband you can use in driving around town, or taking a corner safely in a road race. Think of all the major racing series, especially F1. Even in NASCAR, whenever they have to race in a road course setting, they increase the engine restrictions. This is done for safety reasons...they're less concerned about top-speed than not overpowering corners and losing a race or worse, causing a wreck.

I think it was Motor Trend that called an 800+RWHP Viper's gas pedal the "on/off button".

Street-legal and daily-driven are two different things. I am sure that there are a lot of street-legal thousand-plus HP V8 monsters out there. As plentiful as these are, you'll hear more about daily-driven thousand-plus HP Supras or Skylines (especially in Japan, where those cars are more abundant and can pass emissions).

P.S. I'd rather drive a 1000HP Skyline (AWD) anyday than a similar HP Supra. It's about putting the power to good use.

Dragstrips are a different story. But whose town in here has nothing but straight-aways?

When Zora-Akrus Duntov created the mythical ArDun OHV conversion heads for the Ford flathead V-8, it was guaranteed that American V-8's would be the torque leaders around the world. Why? Because this set of parts was the true forerunner to the Chrysler Hemi family from the Red Ram on up. Top fuelers are pushrod behemoths. That ends the 1/4mile dragrace argument.

HOWEVER....

I am not Herschel McGriff. http://www.motorracingretro.com/70sport/sport76/retro76lemans/76lm04.jpg I have no desire to slide a Dodge Charger around a road course. When it comes to handling balance, smaller cars with lighter peakier engines are preferable. As such, I tend more towards imports (though they be of the four-cylinder English variety). But you know what? It's all preference. Small engine, big engine, turbo, supercharger, big cubes, nitrous, who cares how you make the power? Make it and drive it! There are too many jackasses on both sides of the fence. If it's a nice car, and a fast car, then it's a nice fast car. Whether it came from Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, Holland, Italy, Yugoslavia, Britain, Ireland, Canada, Germany, Spain, Czechoslovakia, Japan, USA, Malayasia or Korea doesn't matter.

Appreciate performance however you find it, otherwise you'll just miss out on something really cool.

Thanks Octagon! Nicely put!

I don't see why there is always this argument on power this and power that?!!?!! Why do we always want more power?...To go faster right? Well, If you have a 600hp Charger and a 600 hp Eclipse who is gonna win? ding! your right the eclipse! It is the speed, and exceleration that matters, not who has the higher number! Thank You, and good-day!

Actually this is a very interesting topic of disscussion - yesterday I payed a visit to the nearest speedway to see locals drag their cars, everything showed up (one person in a minivan, which surprisingly did not set the slow time of the day)
I was thinking though, that here are these big old American cars, with rediculously noisy engines, running times that really weren't too incredible, and here are newer smaller imported cars running the same times.
Then I thought, most hobbyists can afford to own and operate one of these newer cars, not only as a racer for weekends but as a daily driver, while the older American made vehicle would cost mountains of money and be far less reliable to do this double duty... an argument that's usually ignored when this type of comparison is made, truly I have no preference to country of origin so long as it's fun to run.

lalalala

I drive a rice !!!!!!!!
I am in the 11's !!!!!!
my car is streetable!!!!!!
I only run at 19lb of boost!!!!!

why rice has invaded? MONEY!!!!
my car cost me 23,00o and 10,000 in mod, I am in 11's
now show me a 33,000 non-rice that runs 11's. wait, maybe there is, so to be on the safe side, show me a 33,000 non-rice that is in 11's also have AWD.....

bikes? sorry, Japanese bikes rule the street............ ( except the Ducs.)

AWD 401 AMX/Eagles from the late 70's on spray. I saw one run in Wisconsin (the home of American Motors). Those things can run 10's easy. There's your answer.

But when a $7000 Duster can run 11's on spray, who needs AWD?

Nothing can beat a V8 in straight line acceleration when it comes to cost. And nothing can beat them in end for straight line acceleration at this time. I can't think of anything else running under 6sec 1/4 miles.

It's just the way it is. Domestic engines are far more common, far cheaper, and have more displacement.

I like all kinds of cars, you can like the cars you like, but just because you like them doesn't mean the other cars shouldn't get credit where it's due.

Btw, I own imports and domestics, I like each car by itself for different characteristics, I don't care where it's made.

buy a late 80's stang or maro, an u'll build it into 11's for WAY less then 33k.

but as for the topic, one car isn't better then the other. it ALL comes down to personal preference. i have a lot of respect for the big V8's that run 10/11 second passes an shake the ground w/ their huge cams, but at the same time, i don't like their styling an would rather have my teg. yes, it may be slow, but its my car, that i pay foran that i put my money into.

this will be an endless arguement, an red is correct, it will turn into a flame war. check out a similar post "IMPORTS VS DOMESTICS" ur going to see the EXACT same arguements back an forth. pointless really considering neither is better overall.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt

Did you know that an aftermarket spring for a 2000 Mustang can fit a 1974 Mustang also?


Thats not true. The 94 and newer would take one size while the 79-93 would take another. The suspension and frame has changes and evolved over the years, though ignorant rice would say its the exact same replica of the pinto.

Pinto my ass! - you're thinking of the Falcon. Of course the 1st generation mustangs would blow up just as big as the pintos when rear-ended... but that's a different story.

well even though i love that v8 rumble. but it just doens't rev smooth like the way a smaller I4 or V6 does. i love a machine that loves to rev, and its all a matter of preference. i know that a v8 will kill most imports for alot cheaper, and that has the been same argument time and time, but us imports care more about other stuff then goin just straight. our cars are more balanced right off the bat then most domestics, and its more friendlier to the user as well. plus there are lot of v8 guys sayin if you throw a turbo on a v8 a v8 will kill a turbo import. well then why don't you guys throw turbos on your cars more often? stop sayin what if, and just go out and do it. don't say that we're cheating because we have to use turbo. you guys have the same choice, no one is stoping you guys.

Originally posted by Octagon
AWD 401 AMX/Eagles from the late 70's on spray. I saw one run in Wisconsin (the home of American Motors). Those things can run 10's easy. There's your answer.

But when a $7000 Duster can run 11's on spray, who needs AWD?

blah, I am still a rice boy,,,,, go rice,,,,,,. :p

Originally posted by EJ20
lalalala

I drive a rice !!!!!!!!
I am in the 11's !!!!!!
my car is streetable!!!!!!
I only run at 19lb of boost!!!!!

why rice has invaded? MONEY!!!!
my car cost me 23,00o and 10,000 in mod, I am in 11's
now show me a 33,000 non-rice that runs 11's. wait, maybe there is, so to be on the safe side, show me a 33,000 non-rice that is in 11's also have AWD.....

bikes? sorry, Japanese bikes rule the street............ ( except the Ducs.)


You have got to be kidding, there are many American muscle cars that run 1 with only $3000-400 mods or less...
An example, you can build a 500 hp 440 mopar for around $1000,if you pocket port your own heads... EASY job..
say you have a 3500 lb low option (low weight) 68 Road Runner, 500 hp with the right gear and trction (tires) run 11's,...

So maybe The Road runner is too expensive now, you canso the exact same thing with a cheap Satlite, Belvedare, Cornet (same car much cheaper to buy)

so maybe you might have to spend maybe up to $4000-5000 if you have to buy the car and have to go to a junkyard and buy a 67-71 440 from a old New yorker...

Spend another $600 on a good Nitrus setup and fuel lines/pump...
Run 10's for $5000-6000...

So you spent $30,000 to get a lawnmower engine to run 11's..

let me tell you something there are PURE 1 billion % stock American 1960's 70's muscle cars that run 12's PURE stock...
with just new sticky tires and a cam change ipeople have run 11's.. I'm nottalking hemi's, low cost 440'..
Buicks, Chevies etc can do the same...
I'm not being to mopar...

heck, a Cheap 1970-74 Chevy Nova that has a small block V8 engine weighs like 3000 lbs... a 450 hp 350-383 costs $4000 to build (and thats with all internals)...
believe me it's gonna run (if setup right) 11's EASY...

I'm not hear to pick on your car, but if you think it takes over $20,000 to make a American muscle car to run 11's, I just say please go here
http://www.moparstyle.net/

go to the forums, in the racing section and tell them what you told me...

have a good one

scott

Originally posted by DemonZX
Thanks Octagon! Nicely put!

I don't see why there is always this argument on power this and power that?!!?!! Why do we always want more power?...To go faster right? Well, If you have a 600hp Charger and a 600 hp Eclipse who is gonna win? ding! your right the eclipse! It is the speed, and exceleration that matters, not who has the higher number! Thank You, and good-day!


not so fast (hehe), I'll admit a charger is a heavy musclecar.... but comparing a 4000 lbs charger with 600 ho to a 3200 lb Misubish with 600 is not the same and the results might suprise you.., the dinky 4-6 poper with 600 hp has 600 hp at 9000 rpms and EL-ZILCHO low end torque, the charger might have a 500 cid 600 hp engine with a FLAT turque curve...... 600 hp at 5500 rpm,s and but 700 ft lbs or torque at 3500 where as the 600 hp mitsubish might have 120 ft lbs at 3500 rpms..

its not me who is undereastamating the small engine turbo thing, its those of you who have them who do not understand just because an engine is naturally aspired does not mean it is slow..

scott

Originally posted by carrrnuttt
First off, I can see your points.


What you fail to point out however, is that in a street-car, or even in a race car, you have to have an effective way of putting all that power to the ground.

I would rather drive a 1,000HP Supra than a 1,000HP Camaro anyday. The added torque the Camaro has will make for an entertaining rainy-day drive. The Supra, on the other hand, though probably having prodigious TQ itself, will more than likely be able to put down its power better. I understand that aftermarket suspension mods do exist. But mod for mod, the Supra will have better handling.

It's not about the weight either, since the Supra weighs in at about 3400LBS.

Did you know that an aftermarket spring for a 2000 Mustang can fit a 1974 Mustang also?

The Supra's smaller-displacement motor allows you the convenience of having a peaky powerband. Though some would consider this a disadvantage, in high-HP motors, this is actually an advantage. It allows you to have that "low-HP" powerband you can use in driving around town, or taking a corner safely in a road race. Think of all the major racing series, especially F1. Even in NASCAR, whenever they have to race in a road course setting, they increase the engine restrictions. This is done for safety reasons...they're less concerned about top-speed than not overpowering corners and losing a race or worse, causing a wreck.

I think it was Motor Trend that called an 800+RWHP Viper's gas pedal the "on/off button".

Street-legal and daily-driven are two different things. I am sure that there are a lot of street-legal thousand-plus HP V8 monsters out there. As plentiful as these are, you'll hear more about daily-driven thousand-plus HP Supras or Skylines (especially in Japan, where those cars are more abundant and can pass emissions).

P.S. I'd rather drive a 1000HP Skyline (AWD) anyday than a similar HP Supra. It's about putting the power to good use.

Dragstrips are a different story. But whose town in here has nothing but straight-aways?




What makes you think those American car can't put dowe the power, with a good set of chater slicks (street legal slicks with groves) I've seen car like this pull the front weels on a good road...

What good is AWD going to do when a car pulls hard enoguh (like a good high torque V8 can) the rear weels get most of the weight transfer.... the front weels are either off the ground of have very very little traction (almost off ground)...
What good is AWD going to do?


Also I'm not going to be racing in the Rain... AWD owners I hope you do not either for both our sakes..

I understand those Japanese cars just plan handl;e better than those old muscle cars... I admit in a road race, we'd be killed, but nobody road races on the street anymore, maybe 1 in 100,000 people roadrace on the street to what people dragrace..

I'm not saying drag racing is safe esp on the street, but road racing around corners on the street is for TV... I can be drag racing and fly over a spilled antifreeze spot fly over a oil spot on the road at 125 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile but if your raod racing someone, and your going around a corner and hit a oil spot, a antifreeze spot, your off in the trees, if you even hit a small patch of sand.. your done at just say 50 mph...
nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner



I will admit too much low end will break your tires away, but whne you shift up, more torque is needed for those higher gears..

I will admit those AWD cars can move sometimes if built right, and in the winter I have seen those little Talon AWd's blow through like 2 ft of snow like 4Wd's... and keep going...

scott

Originally posted by Donham

nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

scott

Wrong. You may be able to kill me all day with your big block (not against V8's.. would kill for a 528 'cuda...) But i looooove driving in the twisties, and losing firebirds and camaro's alllllllll day long. They just can take the turns like i can. And 1.3 liters is all i need.

Torque isnt everything. Especially for a light car that rev's high, torques are not as important. Perhaps with the older big blocsk that weight a lot you need all that torque that you always brag about, but me making 145 hp and 105 torques is plenty to get away from big domestics when i hit the twisties.

Plus, i think an N/A rotary running headers and straight thru's sounds cooler than a V8 doing the same. And just aobut as loud too, if that that floats yer boat. Certainly doesnt float the smokies boat though.

Originally posted by TatII
well even though i love that v8 rumble. but it just doens't rev smooth like the way a smaller I4 or V6 does. i love a machine that loves to rev, and its all a matter of preference. i know that a v8 will kill most imports for alot cheaper, and that has the been same argument time and time, but us imports care more about other stuff then goin just straight. our cars are more balanced right off the bat then most domestics, and its more friendlier to the user as well. plus there are lot of v8 guys sayin if you throw a turbo on a v8 a v8 will kill a turbo import. well then why don't you guys throw turbos on your cars more often? stop sayin what if, and just go out and do it. don't say that we're cheating because we have to use turbo. you guys have the same choice, no one is stoping you guys.


Nobody is whinning, about turbo's, most 9-8-7 second street v8's do not run turbos and no jap street can on the plannet can touch em...

I think it's great if you like a certain auto.. I will admit for all out performance in conering, handling, braking, accleration, gas mpg, those imports rule for the combo above....

no one is putting you cars down... well okey i've been hard at times, but I'll admit yes in these times it's nice to have 30 mpg when gas is $1.30 and more, a big 440 like I have gets 10 mph if I'm lucky... can not have too much fun.driving around...

I'm not here to get on any import owners arse... I was mearly replying to over all posts alot of the jap car owners claim that those V8's are inferior in a street drag to jap import cars...
The first post is not on the offense, just to point out how many young ones here have been missguided to think old is always slower or at least on avg..

I've seen people on here mouth off about thier 11 sec supra etc and how they never met a V8 they could not "kill"...

all I can say is they must not be looking for anything other than pure stock 5.0's, cause, if they are in the big legues like they claim, there is always people to help him find competition whorewhile if he really wants it...


It does seem to be another kind of war between japan and USA for who's got the cars that rule the streets performance wise..
I think it's kind of cool.... I have friends who like jap cars..... no hate here... we have our preferances... but we still talk... it's just like the old days in the Chevy vs ford vs mopar debates, we used to argue all the time, but we all had the same love of speed...
back them we knew people who could run 10's, but most of us who hung out was lucky to run 13's (1980's) we street raced alot and had fun..

scott

hehehe,,,,,
American muscles race on oval track and straight line.......
hm, nothing to brag about.

oh, did someone asked about AWD? here is why I mentioned AWD.

http://home.tampabay.rr.com/dragon2003/sti%20race1.wmv
right click and save as.

Originally posted by EJ20
hehehe,,,,,
American muscles race on oval track and straight line.......
hm, nothing to brag about.



:rolleyes:

http://www.corvetteracing.com/race_news/2003releases/24Lemans03/img/blueC5R_LeMans1.jpg

Umm I do believe this baby can turn corners with the best of them... and it's proven that by winning the GTS class at LeMans...

well if your looking for the typical import driver who doesn't know squat about cars in this forum you will be very dissapointed. heheh all of us atleast knows common sense in cars. well after i've gotten my turbo, i'm tryin to look for fights with other turbo cars, or stock V8's heheh i know a modded V8 will blow my doors off, but i just want to show them that my little 4 cylinder can still stay in there rearview and that will make me happy enough. i'm like stuck right in the middle of hte speed ladder. n/a I4's are too slow for me now, modded V8's and twin turbo 6 cylinders are too fast for me too, so i have to pick fights with 5.0's and GT's heheh maybe a new 350Z will give me a good run too:D

Originally posted by EJ20
hehehe,,,,,
American muscles race on oval track and straight line.......
hm, nothing to brag about.


Why isn' a Nascar something to brag about? They're technological wonders like all other racecars? If the genius and work and skill of the drivers that goes into those cars and races is not impressive to you, you're either blind or lying. It's people like you who put so much tension into the racing scene with your negative, one-sided, unknowledgeable, and baseless attitudes about things that quite frankley, you know nothing about it seems. It's ALSO people like you who get semi-reasonable threads such as this one closed by moderators such as myself:) So let's try to be a little more reasonable people, so this friendly debate can continue.

Originally posted by TatII
well if your looking for the typical import driver who doesn't know squat about cars in this forum you will be very dissapointed. heheh all of us atleast knows common sense in cars. well after i've gotten my turbo, i'm tryin to look for fights with other turbo cars, or stock V8's heheh i know a modded V8 will blow my doors off, but i just want to show them that my little 4 cylinder can still stay in there rearview and that will make me happy enough. i'm like stuck right in the middle of hte speed ladder. n/a I4's are too slow for me now, modded V8's and twin turbo 6 cylinders are too fast for me too, so i have to pick fights with 5.0's and GT's heheh maybe a new 350Z will give me a good run too:D

if ur ever on the west coast, lemme kno. i wanna try a turbo'd 240. i mean...u'll win, yes, but still :D .

an donham, i respect wut u are saying, but if u read, not many of us import drivers on here are making fun of or saying that our imports are better then domestics. yes, u'll get the occasional guy like ej, but for the most part, all of us are w/ u in saying that domestics own the straight line.

btw tho...u can build a 10 second import for less then 5k...FYI :D

Originally posted by Self


Why isn' a Nascar something to brag about? They're technological wonders like all other racecars? If the genius and work and skill of the drivers that goes into those cars and races is not impressive to you, you're either blind or lying. It's people like you who put so much tension into the racing scene with your negative, one-sided, unknowledgeable, and baseless attitudes about things that quite frankley, you know nothing about it seems. It's ALSO people like you who get semi-reasonable threads such as this one closed by moderators such as myself:) So let's try to be a little more reasonable people, so this friendly debate can continue.
well well well, just becuz I have my own opinion so I can't speak it? ok Mr. Moderator. The thread starter started out putting down JDM automobile, don't you think that is also one-sided opinion as well, what makes me more wrong than people who are one-sided saying that american muscle are better than JDM imports. Why don't you a "reasonable" moderator here?" I am not the only one who is one-sided here.

Originally posted by KrNxRaCer00


if ur ever on the west coast, lemme kno. i wanna try a turbo'd 240. i mean...u'll win, yes, but still :D .


If you're ever in SoCal... lemme know... i'd love to run a GSR..... although I dont think it'd be fair... but it'd be worth posting!! :D

and Tat... if you ever come to SoCal.. I'd love to run a Turbo'd 4 as well. :D

Originally posted by Donham




nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner


I'd have to agree with this statement When I read racing stories none of them are about how the other guy outhandled the other guy in the race and then won it's either a race from a roll for a little less than an 1/8th of a mile or it's about some race from a stop light. I also would rather have RWD over AWD because in an AWD setup there are a lot of parts and over the long haul those parts start to loosen and they are a pain to repair, I had an old chev truck with full time 4wd and after a few years it started to run funny and at highway speeds it would vibrate badly, and it even started to cost me gas mleage, I would rather have something simpler.

Originally posted by 76_cobra


I'd have to agree with this statement When I read racing stories none of them are about how the other guy outhandled the other guy in the race and then won it's either a race from a roll for a little less than an 1/8th of a mile or it's about some race from a stop light. I also would rather have RWD over AWD because in an AWD setup there are a lot of parts and over the long haul those parts start to loosen and they are a pain to repair, I had an old chev truck with full time 4wd and after a few years it started to run funny and at highway speeds it would vibrate badly, and it even started to cost me gas mleage, I would rather have something simpler.


You had an old 70s Blazer?

'75 chev pick up with a 400 in it

hmmm interesting... thought only the Blazers came with the AWD... learn something new each day. :D

76_cobra i've posted up a race about how i beat a mustang gt on the highway because i out handled it. heheh i knew back then that i would have stood no chance in the straight. so i had to take him in the sweeps, and yeah krnxracer i think your car is damn fast for a gs-r. 14.8 is no slouch either, but i doubt that i will ever drive that far to cali. so sorry krnxracer and redneck. hehe we can always imagine though. :cool:

Originally posted by RedNeck383
If you're ever in SoCal... lemme know... i'd love to run a GSR..... although I dont think it'd be fair... but it'd be worth posting!! :D

u talkin bout the nova? hahahha, cuz that'd jus be a WHOOPIN, but i'd take it. i MIGHT go down there if the SAR's doesn't die down in asia, an i don't end up goin to Vietnam. my buddy's an i are gonna take a road trip somewhere, an i wanna get away from wa.

Originally posted by TatIIyeah krnxracer i think your car is damn fast for a gs-r. 14.8 is no slouch either, but i doubt that i will ever drive that far to cali. so sorry krnxracer and redneck. hehe we can always imagine though.

party pooper :( .

j/k, u have all ur stuff almost done? u gotta let us know wut u run w/ that...im startin to become more interested in the nissans than i was before. thx for the props BTW Tat.

back ON TOPIC...yes, awd SUCKS from a roll because of the power loss, but from a stop, i think its still great for drag racing. yes when u get TONS of power, RWD is prolly better, but its still awesome to have. the AWD DSM's are BEASTS when done correctly...same with the WRX an the new EVO's. but to say that the parts will break...big deal? how many guys u know w/ RWD cars taht are pushing huge numbers that don't snap something or blow something out? racing is hard on cars...simple as that.

a 600hp twin turbo 20B (3 Rotor) engined Trueno GT Apex is the best option

Everything else is too heavy

Originally posted by Donham




I understand those Japanese cars just plan handl;e better than those old muscle cars... I admit in a road race, we'd be killed, but nobody road races on the street anymore, maybe 1 in 100,000 people roadrace on the street to what people dragrace..

I'm not saying drag racing is safe esp on the street, but road racing around corners on the street is for TV... I can be drag racing and fly over a spilled antifreeze spot fly over a oil spot on the road at 125 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile but if your raod racing someone, and your going around a corner and hit a oil spot, a antifreeze spot, your off in the trees, if you even hit a small patch of sand.. your done at just say 50 mph...
nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner



I will admit too much low end will break your tires away, but whne you shift up, more torque is needed for those higher gears..

I will admit those AWD cars can move sometimes if built right, and in the winter I have seen those little Talon AWd's blow through like 2 ft of snow like 4Wd's... and keep going...

scott



LMFAO take a 240sx and loose traction, you will be surprised how well it copes. If you know what to do its an impressive machine

Originally posted by Donham


What makes you think those American car can't put dowe the power, with a good set of chater slicks (street legal slicks with groves) I've seen car like this pull the front weels on a good road...

I assumed that we were talking about everyday, roadgoing cars.

If you are referring to just simply racing in straight-line, quarter-mile style, then yes, the high-displacement motors should be the leaders in that. Hell, they've got over 60-70 years of development, versus low-displacement imports that have about a dozen.

Quarter-mile racing, though quite prevalent nowadays, is but one-tenth of what driving is all about. you noticed I said "straight-line, quarter-mile style". Do you think your vaunted musclecars will stand a chance against Japanese "wangan" (highway) racers? Do you think they'll stand a chance against their top-speed racing? Against standing-mile racing? The newer musclecars maybe, but not your favored muscle of yesteryears.

I'm not even mentioning road-racing, since you seem pretty realistic about that.

On freeway race would you rather race with:

A) an 800+HP Toyota Supra or
b) a 1,000+HP 69 Camaro?

Think of how your cheater slicks would affect this situation...


Originally posted by Donham

What good is AWD going to do when a car pulls hard enoguh (like a good high torque V8 can) the rear weels get most of the weight transfer.... the front weels are either off the ground of have very very little traction (almost off ground)...
What good is AWD going to do?

Again, talking about everyday cars. AWD will always be better in everday driving conditions than any 2WD system.

RWD has its advantages.

FWD has it's advantages.

AWD has both systems' advantages.

Have you ever seen a 1stGen Eclipse/Talon cut a 1.8 or less 60-ft on bona-fide Pep-Boys specials? Try that with a high-HP same year (90'-94')Camaro.


Originally posted by Donham

Also I'm not going to be racing in the Rain... AWD owners I hope you do not either for both our sakes..

AND Again, talking about everyday driving.

Not too many people in this board can afford to support a weekend-only car. I repeat: "street-legal does not equal daily-driven". I was talking about high-HP and liveability

Now, let's say you have to go to the bathroom VERY badly...you need teepee. You're out. It's raining. You only have a choice between:

A) a 750+HP 440 Hemi-Charger or
B) a 1,200+HP Toyota Supra

Let logic, not bias, be your guide in this...
(not even mentioning the AWD Skyline, since it won't be fair in a rainy-day comparo)



Originally posted by Donham

I understand those Japanese cars just plan handl;e better than those old muscle cars... I admit in a road race, we'd be killed, but nobody road races on the street anymore, maybe 1 in 100,000 people roadrace on the street to what people dragrace..

Refer to my above posts for this one.

Originally posted by Donham

I'm not saying drag racing is safe esp on the street, but road racing around corners on the street is for TV... I can be drag racing and fly over a spilled antifreeze spot fly over a oil spot on the road at 125 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile but if your raod racing someone, and your going around a corner and hit a oil spot, a antifreeze spot, your off in the trees, if you even hit a small patch of sand.. your done at just say 50 mph...
nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

Refer to your post below for this one.

Originally posted by Donham

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner

I would slit my throat if that is what I'd have to do everyday just to be able to drive my car. My old boss' van can corner better than that...oh BTW, the van was a Honda Odyssey.


Originally posted by Donham

I will admit too much low end will break your tires away, but whne you shift up, more torque is needed for those higher gears..

Actually, no. Better gearing is more necessary for the higher gears. Don't forget, gearing multiplies torque.

Originally posted by Donham

I will admit those AWD cars can move sometimes if built right, and in the winter I have seen those little Talon AWd's blow through like 2 ft of snow like 4Wd's... and keep going...

scott

If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

i'm gonna forgive the ability not to write straight properlly but i actually disagree with straight line

Its boring i want to race around a track and drift n stuff
(notice how the drift scene is getting bigger) it's not all about going fast in a straight line ya know.:o

actully carnutt there is one muscle car thast would do awsome even in wangan races, the superbird could reach over 200mph

Yes and actually, if I remember right, the quickest car on the Wangan right now is a Corvette. Granted it is a NEW Corvette, but still...Musclecars are musclecars:)

I don't think when your in a street racing forum, that specs and back up statements shouldn't be made on production stock numbers....

who races a car that doesn't have any mods on it, from intake filter to a new muffler......?

Originally posted by Neutrino
actully carnutt there is one muscle car thast would do awsome even in wangan races, the superbird could reach over 200mph

True, but I wouldn't trust something that heavy zipping through highway lanes at those speeds.

It's easy to make a car go forward faster and faster, but being able to make it handle the tolerances at those speeds is another.

Originally posted by Self
Yes and actually, if I remember right, the quickest car on the Wangan right now is a Corvette. Granted it is a NEW Corvette, but still...Musclecars are musclecars:)

Not sure about that, but in the scheme of all things V8 and American, the Corvette motor is considered small-displacement (when you can get 10Liter V8s and stuff) and higher revving than others...relating to what I said about a tall powerband helping you control your car.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt


True, but I wouldn't trust something that heavy zipping through highway lanes at those speeds.

It's easy to make a car go forward faster and faster, but being able to make it handle the tolerances at those speeds is another.

i just wanted to show how revolutionary that old technology was...



and i cannot belive you guys compare cars from 30 years ago with brand new cars and say that they handle worse.....well no duh....its 30 years of technological advancement...a proper comprison would be with the today's modern musche cars like the viper or the Z06

i just wanted to give the super bird as an example of how good that old engineering was....it was a very aerodinamic car....and they did all that without the help of today's cad machines computerised wind tunels etc....

Pre-supposing you already own the car you're going to work on and don't have to pay for it, $1000 seems reasonable, but otherwise most American cars are way overpriced (unless you fancy getting a Pacer...)
My Yugo is going to not even reach $1000 for right now (including the cost of the car itself!) and that also includes the engine swap! (but find a good chevette and you just might be able to keep it below $1000)
Running in the twelves? At the event I was at just two days only a couple cars both foreign or domestic got into the twelves, and the majority of the cars there were American made (and the ones that did get into the 12 marks looked to be extensively modified) maybe it was bad driving, maybe it's just the thin air we have up here, but I'm not buying the whole 11's for under $4000 story.

Originally posted by Donham



You have got to be kidding, there are many American muscle cars that run 1 with only $3000-400 mods or less...
An example, you can build a 500 hp 440 mopar for around $1000,if you pocket port your own heads... EASY job..
say you have a 3500 lb low option (low weight) 68 Road Runner, 500 hp with the right gear and trction (tires) run 11's,...

So maybe The Road runner is too expensive now, you canso the exact same thing with a cheap Satlite, Belvedare, Cornet (same car much cheaper to buy)

so maybe you might have to spend maybe up to $4000-5000 if you have to buy the car and have to go to a junkyard and buy a 67-71 440 from a old New yorker...

Spend another $600 on a good Nitrus setup and fuel lines/pump...
Run 10's for $5000-6000...

So you spent $30,000 to get a lawnmower engine to run 11's..

let me tell you something there are PURE 1 billion % stock American 1960's 70's muscle cars that run 12's PURE stock...
with just new sticky tires and a cam change ipeople have run 11's.. I'm nottalking hemi's, low cost 440'..
Buicks, Chevies etc can do the same...
I'm not being to mopar...

heck, a Cheap 1970-74 Chevy Nova that has a small block V8 engine weighs like 3000 lbs... a 450 hp 350-383 costs $4000 to build (and thats with all internals)...
believe me it's gonna run (if setup right) 11's EASY...

I'm not hear to pick on your car, but if you think it takes over $20,000 to make a American muscle car to run 11's, I just say please go here
http://www.moparstyle.net/

go to the forums, in the racing section and tell them what you told me...

have a good one

scott

yeah as sad as it is, the fastest car on the inner loop on the japanese highway is some automatic vette. i almost passed out when i saw it considering that they have many 200+ mph tuner cars in japan. including a diablo

Originally posted by Donham



not so fast (hehe), I'll admit a charger is a heavy musclecar.... but comparing a 4000 lbs charger with 600 ho to a 3200 lb Misubish with 600 is not the same and the results might suprise you.., the dinky 4-6 poper with 600 hp has 600 hp at 9000 rpms and EL-ZILCHO low end torque, the charger might have a 500 cid 600 hp engine with a FLAT turque curve...... 600 hp at 5500 rpm,s and but 700 ft lbs or torque at 3500 where as the 600 hp mitsubish might have 120 ft lbs at 3500 rpms..

its not me who is undereastamating the small engine turbo thing, its those of you who have them who do not understand just because an engine is naturally aspired does not mean it is slow..

scott




I think you are underestimating turbos. A turbo increases torque almost as much as horsepower, that 600 hp Mitsubishi would have 500+ lb of torque, that + 800 less lbs + awd= raped Charger

ya I was checking out Supercoupes SC 3.8L videos.... a whole buch came up of it racing a C5, a SS camaro, and a Rx7. As I watched em I noticed some japanese words were being said.... these were outside shots couldn't see people... I guess they have some tuned USDM cars there as well.... however that RX7 did beat it a little bit, it smoked the Chevy's.
However as far as sports cars are concerned for the population, I think Skylines/S-chassis/Evo are more prevailent over there then USDM such as Mustang/Camaro/Corvette by far.

Wow look at this a thread with japanvs Amercian and no dumb flaming. *knock on wood* now i probbly jinxed it sorry. I love them both but i've seen a buddy trying to keep up with an talon in his Cobra in the turns lost control smashed into a tree cut his car clean in half (he was fine) if he had AWD like the TSI did he would still have it and won the racing near me is there are turns so most of the time the imports win sometimes there just stomped.

I'm not even mentioning road-racing, since you seem pretty realistic about that.




On freeway race would you rather race with:

A) an 800+HP Toyota Supra or
b) a 1,000+HP 69 Camaro?

_________________________________
ANSWER: is, that depends on how both are built, if you use new technoligy on a big engine muscle car, like a overdrive automatic, or a T56 6 speed, then who can say.
_________________________________






Have you ever seen a 1stGen Eclipse/Talon cut a 1.8 or less 60-ft on bona-fide Pep-Boys specials? Try that with a high-HP same year (90'-94')Camaro.

________________________________
ANSWER:
Actually, yes I've seen some quick Eagle Talons, mostly the early ones with the larger turbos that are turned down from the factory.... Been the the Indy drags seen one street driven run like 12's, barely, like 12.90's, pretty good...
___________________________




AND Again, talking about everyday driving.

Not too many people in this board can afford to support a weekend-only car. I repeat: "street-legal does not equal daily-driven". I was talking about high-HP and liveability


_________________________________
ANSWER:
If they can afford to dump $20,000 into a Supra to make it run 11's, just maybe they can afford it as a weekend drive,r esp when with 22 lbs of boost the ctlender pressure is enough to require 112 race fuel.
_________________________________



Now, let's say you have to go to the bathroom VERY badly...you need teepee. You're out. It's raining. You only have a choice between:

A) a 750+HP 440 Hemi-Charger or
B) a 1,200+HP Toyota Supra

Let logic, not bias, be your guide in this...
(not even mentioning the AWD Skyline, since it won't be fair in a rainy-day comparo)


________________________________
ANSWER:
There is no such thing as a 1,200 hp Street Drive daily driver Toyota,
I have seen in magazine a street driven Plymouth Valare with a 1,440 hemi, 3650 lbs ran 8's with small real rubber and serious traction problems, this was back in the late 80's.. technoligy for big engine is much better now as it is for all engines.

Jez dude talk about Bias, you compare a full blown Cam Am Toyota Race car (1,200 hp) to a street car with a tired (750 hp) Hemi in it, and you pick the most heavy musclecar Chrysler corp has ever made...

Believe it or now there are alot of forced induction hemis out there, they seem to like it, many many 1500 hp street driven hemi's on the road..
_________________________________


I would slit my throat if that is what I'd have to do everyday just to be able to drive my car. My old boss' van can corner better than that...oh BTW, the van was a Honda Odyssey.

_______________________________
ANSWER:
Oh come on, now lets not get testy, everyone here is behaving like adults, and friendly for a hot debate, I can tense a little frustration... I do not practice can am style driving on the street, now I'm no mr law or nice guy, but fast cornering in the city is dangerous, compared to battling out the 1/4 mile out in the nowhere county.
Do as you will, but be careful though.
_______________________________

Actually, no. Better gearing is more necessary for the higher gears. Don't forget, gearing multiplies torque.


________________________________
ANSWER
I understand gearing and rear weel torque at the weels... there is a breaking point to how much low gear you need on the street to as how much you start to lose traction..
You could have a 600 hp at 900 rpms supra, with 550 lbs or torque at 5000 rpms
and it still might only have 150 ft lbs at 2000 rpms... while a 68 Satlite with a 500 big block might have the same HP Same torque, but have 500 ft lbs at 2000 rpms...

You can dump the clutch on the supra at 9 grand and the Rpm's are still gonna falll down...until you get moving and while the motor up some to it's power..
By the time the high rpm HP supra gets it's best power, my 7 yr son old will already be in high school.....
Numbers on paper look neat, but you have to have the whole package...

lets talk Street cars that run on pump gas, you can forget the 600 supra, cause 20 lbs of boost will yeild with a 8.0:1 compression motor like 16.0:1 dynamic compression, and pump (93-94) gas runs at between 8.2:1 to 9.0:1 DYNAMIC compression depending on cumbustion chamber effecientcy etc

I mean your talking daiily drivers, so lets talk 93-94 octane pump gas...
Yes, There are 600-700 hp big block that run on pump gas...
Hot Rod a while back had a 600 cid Big block Chevy with 1050 hp runs on 93 Octane. No Nitrus too.. I love those mopars, but those big block Chevy Rats kick some serious butt..

Also those V8's will run more NOS than those dinky 6 popers with turbos...
There is only so much you can do with a small piston and stroke...
________________________________





If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

_________________________________
ANSWER

Well then, 4 Weel drives truck kick butt in the snow also, so I guess they would mop up all of us...
like I said, AWD is good for snow, but for a 11 second streetcar it does no good..
Those front axles are doing noting, because of the car accelerates, the weight of a car moves to the rear (didn't you know this part?), and most the weight on a quick car is on the rear weels, what good is a front axle if it's hanging in the air or BARELY touching the ground.... it's taking up weight and more friction for the motor..
might as well just have a FWD, matter of fact I think most the fasest 1/4 mile mitsubishi Diamond Star cars are FWD... have huge rubber up front..
AWD would be better for a engine with low end torque.... overdriven turbocharged lawnmowers have not mch low end...

___________________

Also one thing, I think most the people (jap car owners too) here are pretty keen on overall mechanics, you guys seems to be grown up, not too much flamming going on....a little heated bias at times, but you have a general understanding, it's just alot of you don't have any knowlege of older cars, esp with todays technoligy on them...

You seem to kind of be a little ticked off at some Domestic car owners cause they give you no respect, or don't even give you a glance...
I can say personally I do know there are some very fast import cars...
I might blow off some steam myself touting about the "boosted lawnmower engines", but I know better than to say my domestic has nothing to worry about from those rice cars...

At the same token I read a bunch of posts of rice car owners popping off about killing all those V8's , then your asking for a response..
This is a open forum, serving not only import readers, you post and you might get a response (hopefully no profanity and flames) from someone.

Take care

scott

A lot of what he said above is true...Except for the part about there being no 1000hp+ Supra's on the street. That's not technically true. Many of those cars are able to turn the boost down and run on the street every day if need be. Now granted, once they do so they're not necessarily 1000hp+ anymore, but still. I feel as if that's one of the pro's of having a turbo vehicle. Power adjustability:D

And I've also seen a 93+ Camaro cut a sub 2.0 60' on cheap street tires. Not trying to diss on AWD cars, because they're GREAT. On the street and in the snow/rain as well. But like he said, once again, when you get to a certain point hp-wise, weight transfer is such that the front wheels are pretty much useless anyways. And then again, the high-speed power robbing of an AWD system is detrimental. But then again that's not really that big of a deal in a daily driven vehicle. Just saying that both cars have their strengths. If anyone is wondering, I personally don't really have a preference one way or another. I just happen to have a Camaro at the moment(although that may be changing in the near future:( ) Looking to pick up something cheap next, so an Eclipse or something is very possible.

wow sub 2.0 on street tires i think that also says alot about the driver and in real life the driver is the most important thing in the car.

Originally posted by Ace$nyper
wow sub 2.0 on street tires i think that also says alot about the driver and in real life the driver is the most important thing in the car.

Oh yea, most certainly. But a sub 2 on streets isn't that difficult to do with stock or near stock hp in a Z28. Anything above say 350hp though, and you start to have real big problems hooking up on streets.

If they can afford to dump $20,000 into a Supra to make it run 11's, just maybe they can afford it as a weekend drive,r esp when with 22 lbs of boost the ctlender pressure is enough to require 112 race fuel.


im sorry but how does it take 20,000 bucks to make a Supra do 11's.


with 20k bucks I could make a 240sx that is already non turbo'd... buy all the parts and tune it and probably do 11's or less........

I only imagine its a hell of a lot easier to do it on a Supra.....

turbochargers aren't THAT expensive...... I will admit some people have some badass cars they had no budget on but you can obtain those speeds on a budget with a turbo car if you plan right.....

the Japanese look down on USDM cars you can just tell that by watching Best Motoring and listening to Keiichi talking about the 350Z is a poser designed for the american market to go up against corvettes altho it might be Gan-san not Keiichi who said that. Keiichi keeps calling him old man its hilarious........... no doubt :o

no doubt the USDM market played a SUBSTANTIAL role in how the 350z was designed. It is still a good car though, I like the interrior and exterior styling, Lemans Sunset kicks ass. Although they say its not twin turbo or anything and complain about the speed, you have to realize it is the Fastest Z that has been made so far.......And I hear it handles better then the Z32 as well....

Its still a decent sports car, I've seen BMI run it against a R34 stock and it was right behind it most of the track, didn't do to bad. modded GTR vs modded Z33 who knows though lol Id bet on the skyline.

Originally posted by Donham



If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

_________________________________
ANSWER

Well then, 4 Weel drives truck kick butt in the snow also, so I guess they would mop up all of us...
like I said, AWD is good for snow, but for a 11 second streetcar it does no good..
Those front axles are doing noting, because of the car accelerates, the weight of a car moves to the rear (didn't you know this part?), and most the weight on a quick car is on the rear weels, what good is a front axle if it's hanging in the air or BARELY touching the ground.... it's taking up weight and more friction for the motor..
might as well just have a FWD, matter of fact I think most the fasest 1/4 mile mitsubishi Diamond Star cars are FWD... have huge rubber up front..
AWD would be better for a engine with low end torque.... overdriven turbocharged lawnmowers have not mch low end...

___________________



Your thinking of AWD wrong, awd does not send 100% of power to the rear wheels like a rwd does, it sends a certian amount to both front and rear axels. Both axels get decent power and all four tires grip, none come off the ground enough to lose traction.

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
no doubt the USDM market played a SUBSTANTIAL role in how the 350z was designed. It is still a good car though, I like the interrior and exterior styling, Lemans Sunset kicks ass. Although they say its not twin turbo or anything and complain about the speed, you have to realize it is the Fastest Z that has been made so far.......And I hear it handles better then the Z32 as well....

Its still a decent sports car, I've seen BMI run it against a R34 stock and it was right behind it most of the track, didn't do to bad. modded GTR vs modded Z33 who knows though lol Id bet on the skyline.

did you watch all of that video
i have the DVD and the R34 is just pacing it cuz its a camera car. The guy decides at the end he'll demostrate how fast a R34 is compared to the Z he hounds the Z then destroys it overtaking in a corner and leaving it for dead on the straight away. GAN-san was pissed off at the GTR cuz it was in his way he was in a S2000 and would've taken the Z in a corner if the GTR wasn't there.

That's also the other point they link this to the GTR and say its not a race car like the GTR so its more american etc etc. The GTR wasted the Z is was immense.

Originally posted by crankwalk 2g


Your thinking of AWD wrong, awd does not send 100% of power to the rear wheels like a rwd does, it sends a certian amount to both front and rear axels. Both axels get decent power and all four tires grip, none come off the ground enough to lose traction.


AWD's are really easy to screw up on launching from a dead stop thats the only problem. The R34 GTR has a good way of overcoming it but it is not true AWD.

yeah I've never seen a AWD GTR pick up its front wheels... take a look at some videos of the fastest ones.... the front end picks up a lil bit but the front tires never spin out of control.... the rears might lay out some smoke, but it still accelerates hard. Nothing beats seeing a high HP skyline take off the line hard lol.

Top secret and a 1300hp skyline in Japan Highway tunnel = AWESOME:o

Originally posted by NSX-R-SSJ20K



AWD's are really easy to screw up on launching from a dead stop thats the only problem. The R34 GTR has a good way of overcoming it but it is not true AWD.

what ? rev the engine at 4.5k and slipped or dump the clutch. AWD has the easiest way to launch.

Originally posted by Neutrino


and i cannot belive you guys compare cars from 30 years ago with brand new cars and say that they handle worse.....well no duh....its 30 years of technological advancement...a proper comprison would be with the today's modern musche cars like the viper or the Z06

i just wanted to give the super bird as an example of how good that old engineering was....it was a very aerodinamic car....and they did all that without the help of today's cad machines computerised wind tunels etc....

I was basing the comparo off Donham's arguments. He is basically showing that he is enamored with classic muscle. To my credit, I did admit that newer muscle is a lot more advanced, although I also mentioned that as far as suspension treatments go, a 2000 Mustang's aftermarket suspension components bolt right on to a 1974 Mustang's. That should tell you something.

I have always loved muscle. I have always loved ALL cars. I grew with my stepdad having a late 60's (couldn't remember exactly what year) Olds Cutlass with a 442 in it.

I did, however, became less enamored when I beat a friend of a friend's 69 Charger with my 1990 Integra (b16, bolt-on's, ECU). Granted, his car was stock, but I admit to shaking in my boots before the race. He wasn't a happy man afterwards.

Oh, he says he's ran a best of 15.1 with that Charger.

P.S.

I just have to say how proud I am of everybody right now for keeping this thread civil...let's all try to keep it that way.

I grew with my stepdad having a late 60's (couldn't remember exactly what year) Olds Cutlass with a 442 in it.

So his Cutlass had a Cutlass inside it? Wow lol. The 4-4-2 was a car, perhaps you meant 455 V8? 4-4-2 was to Cutlass as Chevelle was to Malibu.

With an awd u control how much power is getting to your rear wheel and vice versa. When you do a hard launch with an awd all the weight isnt going to the back of the car...U can have 70% power goin to the end and 30% to the front to make up for the traction and hp and the launch would be extreme with high hp. The dsms u were talkin about with slicks on the front are gst's (fwd eclipse) which are more common than the gsx (awd eclipse and best car ever made next to the viper...) Please dont ask me how i could say the gsx and viper are best car ever made. Matter of opinion...and i own a gsx, viper next...You guys need to get with the times and mix things up a bit. 4 cyclinder domestics are the way to go. That way u get the best of both worlds right? TeamZX2 all the way baby. I think my n/a ford zx2 could take a cobra in the 1/4 if he missed his 1st 2nd and 3rd gear and his car died. Maybe then i couldbeat him. Im blabbering.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt

I also mentioned that as far as suspension treatments go, a 2000 Mustang's aftermarket suspension components bolt right on to a 1974 Mustang's. That should tell you something.








Where do you get that from? The 79-93 fox body mustangs take a different spring from the 94- new Though the platform is aged its is not unchanged through out the years. The 94 and newer is much more rigid and a better handler then the fox stangs. Dont know what your talking about with the 74 stangs, those are known as the mustang II. The front suspension on the mustangII is very popular with custom hot rodders to use on there cars. cut the rice jargon and check the facts.

Originally posted by DeViL


So his Cutlass had a Cutlass inside it? Wow lol. The 4-4-2 was a car, perhaps you meant 455 V8? 4-4-2 was to Cutlass as Chevelle was to Malibu.

Give me a break:finger:...I was eight, a'ight?

All I know is it was a HUGE and LOUD motor, and he used to scare me as I lay pinned against the seat (back, front, doesn't matter), as he shwoed off that car's power.

All I remember him telling me about the motor was that it was a big-block 4-sumthin with dual carbs. Anyone know what it might be?

Originally posted by 94svt5.0


Where do you get that from? The 79-93 fox body mustangs take a different spring from the 94- new Though the platform is aged its is not unchanged through out the years. The 94 and newer is much more rigid and a better handler then the fox stangs. Dont know what your talking about with the 74 stangs, those are known as the mustang II. The front suspension on the mustangII is very popular with custom hot rodders to use on there cars. cut the rice jargon and check the facts.


I used to work at performance parts store. All I know was that we had these Eibach springs and that the boxes were labeled "1974 to 2000 Mustang". I asked the owner/manager of the store about it, and he said that that's what he got from Eibach, so that's how he sells 'em. He also said he's sold the exact springs to '99-'00 (at that time, dunno if it'll fit '01's) 'Stangs all the way to an '88 GT owner. They never came back to complain about it. If somehow I am wrong, so be it...but that's where I get my "knowledge" from about that".

Originally posted by carrrnuttt



I used to work at performance parts store. All I know was that we had these Eibach springs and that the boxes were labeled "1974 to 2000 Mustang". I asked the owner/manager of the store about it, and he said that that's what he got from Eibach, so that's how he sells 'em. He also said he's sold the exact springs to '99-'00 (at that time, dunno if it'll fit '01's) 'Stangs all the way to an '88 GT owner. They never came back to complain about it. If somehow I am wrong, so be it...but that's where I get my "knowledge" from about that".

The springs are different sizes for the fox bodys and the sn-95, not to mention the difference from the mustangII, it was maybe 79-00 not 74-00. I guess if the springs where for slamming then they would interchange, only the drop would be dramatic on the fox, since it already has shorter springs then the sn-95.

It was most likely a 455 thats what Oldsmobile and Pontiac used versus Chevy's 454. The 455 I think put out more torque but it had less horsepower, about as low as the LS5 454 (like 380 hp or something I'm not too sure). Don't worry about it I'm just messing with you.

Ok what I want to know is what all in todays technology makes these cars so much faster then the older cars like a 65 GTO? There you got a 3,100 lbs car with like 360 hp and torque to match, and it still only ran low 14's. Versus a 02 Trans Am which has 325, probably more like 330 hp, and 350 lbs of torque, and runs almost 12's. Thats crazy. I know it has a lot better aerodynamics and better wheels, tires for traction, but that can't all be it. Those Trans Ams are also heavier. My 88 weighs 3750 lbs.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt
I grew with my stepdad having a late 60's (couldn't remember exactly what year) Olds Cutlass with a 442 in it.

I did, however, became less enamored when I beat a friend of a friend's 69 Charger with my 1990 Integra

Oh, he says he's ran a best of 15.1 with that Charger.



As Devil said the 442 was a car of its own... but the 442 actually ment something. Had to do with the options.

4-4-2 : 4 barre carbl, 4 speed manual, 2 (dual) exhaust

For sake of arguement we'll say it was a '69 Olds 442. Engine Options were for the 442..

(W-32) 400 V8 350bhp@4800rpm, 440lb-ft@3200rpm.
(W-30) 400 V8 360bhp@5400rpm, 440lb-ft@3600rpm.
(Hurst/Olds) 455 V8 380bhp@5000rpm, 500lb-ft@3200rpm.
Performance: (Hurst/Olds) 455/380: 0-60 in 5.9 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.03 sec @ 101mph.

The '69 Charger wasn't the greatest contender Unlesss it was a R/T 500 with the 426 Hemi, those ran mid 13s all day. The Hemi's were rated at 425hp... but were estimated to be near 500hp. They were also the 11th fastest muscle car of all time, 1st being '66 A/C Cobra 427 with a ET 12.2 @ 118mph

By the sound of your friends Charger, it may have been a tired old 318.

'69 Charger engine options.
318 V8 230bhp.
383 V8 335bhp.
426 V8 Hemi 425bhp@5000rpm, 490lb-ft@4000rpm.
440 V8 375bhp@4600rpm, 480lb-ft@3200rpm.

Originally posted by DeViL


Ok what I want to know is what all in todays technology makes these cars so much faster then the older cars like a 65 GTO? There you got a 3,100 lbs car with like 360 hp and torque to match, and it still only ran low 14's. Versus a 02 Trans Am which has 325, probably more like 330 hp, and 350 lbs of torque, and runs almost 12's. Thats crazy. I know it has a lot better aerodynamics and better wheels, tires for traction, but that can't all be it. Those Trans Ams are also heavier. My 88 weighs 3750 lbs.

You said it yourself... its the tires and suspension... back when my car was still cool.. hehe... they still used bias-ply tires.

which absolutely suck donkey ass for grip...

Lets not forget they're carbuerated... thats not the worlds most efficient means of fuel delivery.

The older transmissions also werent as efficient... blah blah... you know the story.

Like you said its a number of things that make the newer cars muchhh easier to go faster in. Older cars make up for this in being somewhat unlimited to what they can do powerwise...

Also, as you said your Pontiac weighs more than that of a Camaro of equal age... Its cause Pontiacs were usually equipt with more standard luxury items than Chevy. Pontiac's line of cars has always been a bit more luxurious for the dollar than Chevy... Similar to Toyota/Lexus... just on a more white trash level. :D

They also aren't a pain in the ass to work on compared to the complaints I hear of new Firebird and Camaro owners. Speaking of communist rednecks there was a Nova behind me a couple nights ago, blue, looked exactly like yours. I'm just cruising along doing the speed limit (I knew way back in the distance there was a cop, probably watching me or him). Apparantly I was going too slow for these kids in the Nova so he lines up next to me and takes off like I'm going to do something. Sucker was loud as I found out after coming behind him he had no mufflers. He sped off way down the road and I dont know if it was because of him taking off behind me like that or him speeding at later on, but there was definately a couple cops hauling ass to catch him lol.

How come its never Euro vs jap or American you all know were the REAL competition;)

AMEN to that brother!
its all about the EURO

Cuz your nazis, you're all nazis!!!! And we beat you twice already, NAZI!

well actually i AM half german, so TECHNICALLY i am a nazi. FEAR ME. lol.... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by DeViL
It was most likely a 455 thats what Oldsmobile and Pontiac used versus Chevy's 454. The 455 I think put out more torque but it had less horsepower, about as low as the LS5 454 (like 380 hp or something I'm not too sure). Don't worry about it I'm just messing with you.

Ok what I want to know is what all in todays technology makes these cars so much faster then the older cars like a 65 GTO? There you got a 3,100 lbs car with like 360 hp and torque to match, and it still only ran low 14's. Versus a 02 Trans Am which has 325, probably more like 330 hp, and 350 lbs of torque, and runs almost 12's. Thats crazy. I know it has a lot better aerodynamics and better wheels, tires for traction, but that can't all be it. Those Trans Ams are also heavier. My 88 weighs 3750 lbs.



I'm no expert on GM or Oldsmobile cars, but I belive the 1970 Olds Cutlas 442, with the W30 455 cid engine had one 4 BBL carb, was rated at 370 hp, weighed like 4200 lbs, with 3.42 gears ran the 1/4 mile in like 13.70's at best, avg times were like 14's and 15's...

The reason a new Ram air Firebird run 12's and is rated at only 325 hp, is because those older muscle cars before 1972 were rated at th dyno with the engine out of (out of car with manifolds on) car compared to newer cars, like all 1972 and newer cars are rated at the rear weels.. you can lose between 45-110 hp NET...
Take that new LS1 engine out of the newer F-body Firebird and that 325 rear weelk hp engine on a engine dyno would achive around 390-400-420 hp..

Also Traction was a big problem in those late 60's card, 500-550 ft lbs or torque all going to waste...
but the time the cars got going, the engines ran out of steam..

I like those old Muscle cars, to me they are not that fast, what they posses is raw ability, with todays technoligy to really make power and fly...

Olds 442's, dodge Chargers, Buick Skylarks were all Heavy cars, the heavy ones of the muscle cars...
a Typical 68-70 Charger with a 440 weighed like 4000 lbs, the 71-74 Charger with same options weighed like 4100-4300 lbs...
Compared to 68-70 Super Bee's, Cornet R/T's, Plymouth Road Runners, Plymouth GTX's, Satlites, Belederes, Cuda's, Challengers all weigh around 3450 to 3800 lbs, 3600 being about avg..
Darts with 340's were around 3000-3100 lbs, with 440's 3200-3300 lbs
Dusters were like 2850 lbs with a 340.. (no options)...

The quickest factory mopar was a 69 Plymouth Raod runner with a 440 6 pick, PURE Stock had ran a best on 12.91 at 111 mph with HARD Stock tires...
just a change of rubber can yeaild mid to low 12's on a good day... start adding mods (minor) and 11's are a piece of cake...


The best cars are the stock Appering drag cars, a drag race class, where your car has to look and sound stock inside and out... these cars (426 hemi's 440's, Chevy 396's, 427's etc run 11's and sound stock too..
The sport is getting more populer and 1000's of poeple are doing it...
They even run crap Red line tires
just imagine if they could run soft compont sticky tires...

Some rich kid in his 20 lbs of boose built to the max Toyota Supra or Skyline would pull beside the guy not knowing the race would not be as easy as he though, when your pulling like crazy 20 lbs of boost and the 34 yr old car just keeps pulling ahead...
8 gigantic pistons craniing up & down is hard to contend with....

scott

Originally posted by The CoCoNuT BoY
well actually i AM half german, so TECHNICALLY i am a nazi. FEAR ME. lol.... :rolleyes:

I've got more german in me than Hitler... Considering he was Austrian... it does make sense...

But German (and Euro cars in general) are just another car on the road to me.. if its nice i'll admire it... otherwise I just keep cruisin by like a fart in the wind.

Originally posted by The CoCoNuT BoY
well actually i AM half german, so TECHNICALLY i am a nazi. FEAR ME. lol.... :rolleyes:

Here too, I half German, even had some relatived who served under Hitler, they would tell you they didn't really care foir him..

Germany make some of the best performance cars in the world, the Germans have always been or seemed to be more advanced than the rest of the world..

Look back in WWII times, The Germans made the first real Assault Rifle, they had the deepest diving submarines, They had the strongest tanks, that had a 20:1 kill ratio to the American tanks, the Germans had the first guided missles, it took the USA till the 1950's to achive this and they had to steal the German sceintists to do it..
The Germans were ahead of the USA in Atomic reserch from the 1930's till 1943..
. The Germans had the First operatiional jet aircraft (the Me262-A1) to be in combat at 540 mph, the fastest Spitfire's and P51's at the time could go 440 mph, the fastest German prop plane were even fast, 452 mph for the Me109K, 440 mph for the Fw190 Dora 9, not counting other more rare craft...
The Japs never could even make 400 mph in level flight in WWII, the Ki-84 could achive 386 mph..
The Germans send a Me-262 to help the japs, and they coppied it... but who really designed it?, they never got it into production...

All in all they lost, becauee they was being gang banged by 40 countires, 5-6 of them direct combat.... they had to battle the USA's industrial power...
it's the only nation the USA has been in conflict with in the past 100 years and was at a pretty good technilogical DISADVANTAGE...

They make some real quality, and VERY fast cars.

scott

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
yeah I've never seen a AWD GTR pick up its front wheels... take a look at some videos of the fastest ones.... the front end picks up a lil bit but the front tires never spin out of control.... the rears might lay out some smoke, but it still accelerates hard. Nothing beats seeing a high HP skyline take off the line hard lol.

I would tend to disagree, but that is just me. I would say that the best launch I have ever seen was a 1970 Dodge Challenger. The car rolled up next to me and was droning out everything else, he was running through straight pipes. He also had a nice 340 badge on the hood. I simply mouthed the words BULL SHIT! He caught my drift and revved his engine. It was sheer beauty watching the car rock from side to side. The light turned green and he left the line like I had floored it in reverse. He seemed to have no problem getting the power down yet managed to leave a little scratch in every gear.

I found him later only to find that the car had a twin supercharged 528 Hemi under the hood. He also had a lot done to lighten it. Not only that but he did some extensive work to make the car handle and was kicking some ass in some SCCA events.

Never count the good old American Muscle car out, they can surprise you. Every car has something about it that it is better at than other cars. You can't make one that will just dominate in every category, it is impossible.

Originally posted by Polygon
You can't make one that will just dominate in every category, it is impossible.

Nuh uhhh... In F&F that Supra could do it allllll!:p


Gotta love Mopar... Nice story Poly... :D

hehe I still think a tuned GTR on a hard launch makes the best looking launches....... I just love the sound of those RB's too.... pure ecstacy.

Originally posted by RACER D12
How come its never Euro vs jap or American you all know were the REAL competition;)

Because nothing can compare to 1853lbs. & 1300cc of unleashed Yugoslavian built, power!
Interesting though, seeing as how most Japanese companies got their start after WWII by either copying or licensing designs from Europe.
After all, Isuzu built Austin, Hino built Renault, Mitsubishi was the odd one out and built the American designed Henry J.
Honda and Suzuki copied DKW's prewar designs, and Subaru's first attempt's inspiration seems to not have come from any one car, but the 1966 1000 was clearly inspired by the Hansa-Goliath front wheel drive, flat-four powered cars.
And toyota? they just stuck with the classic front engine rear wheel drive layout on all their cars until 1978 with the introduction of the Tercel.

I did not read any of this thread, but I would like to say that this argument is retarded. American cars are not "better" than Japanese cars, and vise versa. Cars are cars, and you have to look at them on an individual basis.

Originally posted by Donham

The reason a new Ram air Firebird run 12's and is rated at only 325 hp, is because those older muscle cars before 1972 were rated at th dyno with the engine out of (out of car with manifolds on) car compared to newer cars, like all 1972 and newer cars are rated at the rear weels.. you can lose between 45-110 hp NET...
Take that new LS1 engine out of the newer F-body Firebird and that 325 rear weelk hp engine on a engine dyno would achive around 390-400-420 hp..

Just so you know...That's wrong. Cars are still rated at the flywheel, not the rear wheels. A new LS1 will dyno at a ~305 - 310 rear wheel HP. That is not,
however, because the power ratings given are already taken at the rear wheels, it is because the cars are undrrated so as to make the Corvette more impressive.

Originally posted by Self


Just so you know...That's wrong. Cars are still rated at the flywheel, not the rear wheels. A new LS1 will dyno at a ~305 - 310 rear wheel HP. That is not,
however, because the power ratings given are already taken at the rear wheels, it is because the cars are undrrated so as to make the Corvette more impressive.

Word.

Originally posted by RACER D12
How come its never Euro vs jap or American you all know were the REAL competition;)
in your sig it says no V-Tec here (VTEC) When in actuality the car in your sig has a copy of VTEC and half of the motor is based around japanese engineering? Just an observation.....what gives? Oh yea and Ford blows / chevy rains supreme.

Originally posted by DeViL
Cuz your nazis, you're all nazis!!!! And we beat you twice already, NAZI!
3 times if you count the corvette. :D
first war, second war, production of the chevy.

yea 1000hp skylines launching from a stop sound mental and they Just haul ass.

I'm so impressed o well they'd suck on a touge tho. :o

you can't have everything hehe..... on a BMI video they have run a MINE's R34...... I think it had 700+hp..... anyhow the damn thing handled faster then shit...... put the power down well., you could just telll how much faster it was going though corners and straights compared to the other cars, was just sick lol.

hell yea

Keiichi kept going DAAMNNNNNN

and they both said its too fast

The Mine's Skyline was a Track Racing Monster and it still had some parts in the engine bay left stock like the air box which they said its up to the customer

They have strict tuning policies so that they don't loose focus as a company.
They are freaking cool :sun:

Originally posted by DeViL
Don't worry about it I'm just messing with you.



Don't do it again:finger::flipa:!


Originally posted by DeViL

Ok what I want to know is what all in todays technology makes these cars so much faster then the older cars like a 65 GTO?

Nobody mentioned gearing.

Today's cars are just so incredibly so fine-tuned to their gearing.

gearing, trannies, tires, suspensions, brakes...... who here wnats a car with 4 wheel drum brakes =0!

Jap engines are deisnged better with more exact tolerances and less known faulty parts..... in general

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
Jap engines are deisnged better with more exact tolerances and less known faulty parts..... in general

You're right domestic car companies just slap engines together from old junkyard parts that's why they are so unreliable compared to japanese cars.

The reliability of a car cannot be based on what company it comes from it is based on the individual who drives it, if you push a car hard and don't take care of it and never check the tire pressure and the oil and are always racing around and revving high, then your car is not going to last very long it doesn't matter what company it was that made the car. My friend hates dodge because he says they are unreliable because every dodge he's had has broken down on him well I know for a fact that he is hard on cars he ran one of his cars for almost 2 weeks with no oil in it and the only reason he changed the oil was because he was given a coupon for a free oil change otherwise he wouldn't have known and he would probably have cracked his engione block.

And on that note, Chevy is starting a new ad campaign admitting it made shatty cars in the 80's and 90's. Their new campaign admits they were behind japanese companies in overall quality, but they've learned from their mistakes.

Oh yeah and svt5.0 was right about those parts not interchanging I own a mustang II and there is pretty much no aftemarket for them due to their lack of popularity in fact most of the parts on them are in compatible with pretty much every other mustang produced so any aftermarket mparts for classic stangs won't fit I know that for a fact. pretty much any part from 79-present doesn't interchange. I like and I dislike the mustang II becausae of the facts mentioned above nothing interchanges, however I like the styling.

Originally posted by ldelaysionl
And on that note, Chevy is starting a new ad campaign admitting it made shatty cars in the 80's and 90's. Their new campaign admits they were behind japanese companies in overall quality, but they've learned from their mistakes.

Where is that article I would like to read it maybe you could scan it so we could see it or you could give us a link. IMO it's up to you how your car runs if you treat it good it will treat you good.

ford is a company that allows the highest known percentage of defect parts into its new cars. I know this because my brother in law was an engineer there. When a car is made they ask for 1000's of parts for each car and move mass quanties, they get a cheaper price say for every 10000 parts maybe 100 are defective..... other companies might only except 80, 60, 50....... this is just for example I don't know the exact numbers.

its funny that Ford lets such defects go through and yet the Own A company known for its obsessive tendency to check something and check it again ..... can you guess who it is?

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
gearing, trannies, tires, suspensions, brakes...... who here wnats a car with 4 wheel drum brakes =0!

Jap engines are deisnged better with more exact tolerances and less known faulty parts..... in general

There's nothing wrong with four wheel drums - unless you plan on driving thirteen hours straight... down hill... and around sharp curves. Otherwise drums are just fine.

Quite right. I can't name any of those early drag specials (like the Z11 package 409 Bel Airs, Max Wedge 426 Dodges and Plymouths, 427 Thunderbolts and Galaxies, 421SD Pontiac Catalinas, etc) that came with front discs.

And these were 13-11second cars off the showroom floor on DOT skinnies and with primitive suspension setups. They still were working with the idea that a high nose imporves traction, especially on 9inch slicks.

And don't say they were heavy, either. Those things were ballasted up to the Super Stock class minimum of about 3200lbs thanks to thin gauge steel roofs, aluminum front ends, magnesium Kmembers, acid dipping, and a ton of other "only cheating if you get caught" tricks.

Chevy is starting a new ad campaign admitting it made shatty cars in the 80's and 90's.
They sure got some balls thats not the way to get people to buy your cars, regardless of a company saying its improved. Though they shouldn't really be so harsh the early 90's and late 80's cars weren't all that bad, junk compared to what everyone has now but still they weren't dirt slow. Now the early 80's, there lies the shitty stuff the big 3 made. Getting 350 V8s with only around 180 hp, yuck.

i agree with 76Cobra, it depends how u treat ur car. ANY car can b bad if u dont treat it rite. but the thing i still dont get is that: The SVT Cobra is like wut 45-50k dollers (dunno real price), and its quick, same with the Vette Z06. Those cars i get furious with becuase those are really fast cars under 60k dollars, and to get a GTR3? its like 90k dollars to get one!

Originally posted by Silver_GTR34
i agree with 76Cobra, it depends how u treat ur car. ANY car can b bad if u dont treat it rite. but the thing i still dont get is that: The SVT Cobra is like wut 45-50k dollers (dunno real price), and its quick, same with the Vette Z06. Those cars i get furious with becuase those are really fast cars under 60k dollars, and to get a GTR3? its like 90k dollars to get one!

The new Cobra goes for 32k as advertised from Ford, but with dealer markup i've seen them for as much as 38k...

heres another point, ever sit in an old american muscle car???? not very comfortable is it, comparing japan and american comfort is like wcthing black and white tv vs. sony surround sound dvd lol, also i drive a sporty family car(4 door) that runs 13's, it has heated seats, electric seats, bose sound, mint interior that is up to date, it is much easier to drive(this car is my maxima), i dont beleive many v8s have all these nice lil perks, all in all, jap. cars are more appealing because they have the the nice things and not just power, now how often do we race? -1% of the time we actually drive our cars? you begin to like the other things than just power, of coarse if i was building a strictly track car i would get a v8 or a v12 to top, its pretty much common sense here, a bigger engine will yeild higher hp if tweaked correctly, but there is just more than hp...........

lol I don't know man I've sat in a 70 Chevelle before, kinda junky and the seats weren't in good shape, but I was comfortable. When you talk about the older cars, those things had a lot more room for a person then cars now, they were comfortable, however they just didn't have as many plush things we have today. And um, ever been in a new Corvette? That is probably the easiest two-seater sports car to get in and out of, and it comes with as many if not more options then a Maxima comes with. A Trans Am GTA, came standard with power adjustable seats, bose stereo system with two good size subwoofers that I can't even put up half way before it becomes way too loud, well uh my interior was up to date at the time, stereo buttons on the steering wheel (and I'm not just talking a few buttons, I have everything on there, mute, scan, volume, seek, you name it, its on that steering wheel lol) the option of having digital guages (don't have that), leather seats (I have cloth), ws6 package, gold wheels, and a security system (pain in the ass, I removed that thing). Heated seats I don't even think was available at the time but you could of counted on that being in it had it been there :cool:. Firebirds now still have most of these options, however they don't have as many controls on the steering wheel as the GTA.

You're looking at it like that because you drive a Maxima, sporty yeah but Nissan didn't make that for the intent of racing. Thats on the same level as the Grand Prix, which again has just as many luxary items as the Maxima. Another car which though may be a supercharged V6 (GTP only), isn't intended as a race car. Most sport/muscle cars out there that are cheap, aren't really intended for you to be comfortable, they are out on the market to be driven hard and fast for fun on a sunny day. Hell even some of the most expensive exotics don't come with many options. Ferraris don't come with many options, Dodge's Viper has nothing plush about it.

And thats all I'm putting into this stupid import vs domestic argument. Must we have these every couple months?

lmfao dude don't even tell me Camaros and Firebirds have nice seats.....................


have you ever sat in ANY other car in your lifetime to compare?

I think camaros......even the new ones have some of the shittiest seats I have ever sat in.


Rolls-Royce and Volvo being the two most comfortable seats I've ever had to ride in.

Hmm. Well my freinds old sunbird had awesome seats. Smelled kinda funny and stained, but sooo comfy to sit in. I thought the firebirds had the same sort of seats?

Any Camaro I've ever been in felt like you were sitting on a cushion on the floor with your feet straight out in front of you, too low to easily see out the windshield (I'm not short either). On top of that, the windshield is too slopey so you don't get a very big field of vision, and the hood is too long so you can't see the road directly in front of you. It's hard to run a road course in a car you literally can't see out of.

Wait, I wasn't gonna get involved with this argument. Never mind. :p

lmfao dude don't even tell me Camaros and Firebirds have nice seats.....................
I have power seats so I can adjust it to what comforts me best, so yes they do have nice seats. Does your car have that? Granted they probably don't have the most comfortable leather or cloth seats in the world but they are still nice. If I really thought they were on the level of a Mercedes or Cadillac comfort I wouldn't of said "the cars aren't made to be comfortable, they are there to drive hard and fast".

have you ever sat in ANY other car in your lifetime to compare?
wtf don't be ignorant with me, I've sat in plenty of cars as has any person.
To name a few Chevelle, Firebirds old and new, Jeeps, Accords, Grand Ams, Grand Prixs, Silverado, Celebrity, new Mustangs, 66 Mustang, Eclipse, Corolla. Big deal, all of them I didn't mind sitting in except the Corolla, that started to get uncomfortable after a while.

too low to easily see out the windshield (I'm not short either). On top of that, the windshield is too slopey so you don't get a very big field of vision, and the hood is too long so you can't see the road directly in front of you
Ah don't be such a wuss thats what makes it interesting. lol j/k.
I agree with you on those new Firebirds though I rode in a 02 Trans Am convertible I was afraid the guy was going to hit something trying to get out of his parking spot. My 88 is a lot easier to see out of then that Firebird. Then again I was sitting in the passenger seat it might be different when you're driving it.

Really though those complaints are typical for someone not used to driving the car. Eventually you get used to it and it's not that big of a deal. I got used to the GTA, it just took a couple weeks. And if you think Camaros and Firebirds are bad, shit try judging where you are in one of those new Vipers, the hoods of those things are twice as long.

See Euro cars do own. We combine comfort and performance in a perfect package:D

Woot Euros..even though im thinking bout buying a nissan soon:P lol, but i lub my BMW...talk about comfy

GO NISSAN !!!

lol

;)

Originally posted by Waveridr85
heres another point, ever sit in an old american muscle car???? not very comfortable is it, comparing japan and american comfort is like wcthing black and white tv vs. sony surround sound dvd lol, also i drive a sporty family car(4 door) that runs 13's, it has heated seats, electric seats, bose sound, mint interior that is up to date, it is much easier to drive(this car is my maxima), i dont beleive many v8s have all these nice lil perks, all in all, jap. cars are more appealing because they have the the nice things and not just power, now how often do we race? -1% of the time we actually drive our cars? you begin to like the other things than just power, of coarse if i was building a strictly track car i would get a v8 or a v12 to top, its pretty much common sense here, a bigger engine will yeild higher hp if tweaked correctly, but there is just more than hp...........

My car(before I started to tear it down:() ran low 11s, had electric seats, Delco/Bose system with two subs(all stock), mint interior that is up to date, and heated seats(NOT stock, courtest of Thunder Racing). You can't really compare your Maxima to a Z28 though, like you said you drive a sporty family car, where as the Z28 is a true SPORTS car. If you want, compare your car to a GTP, a new GTO(when they finally arrive), a new Impala, cars like that. And see how many of those have all of the ammenities your car has. There are plenty of cars that have "the nice things" and power too. If Japanese cars are more appealing to you, so be it. But I really hope that's not your reasoning, b/c there are plenty of American made vehicles out there that have all of "the nice things" as well:)


Originally posted by SR20DETpower
lmfao dude don't even tell me Camaros and Firebirds have nice seats.....................
have you ever sat in ANY other car in your lifetime to compare?
I think camaros......even the new ones have some of the shittiest seats I have ever sat in.
Rolls-Royce and Volvo being the two most comfortable seats I've ever had to ride in.

Camaro's and Firebirds have decent seats. It's an accepted fact however, that the TA seats are more comfortable than the Z28 seats. It's b/c of this fact that many many Camaro owners swap their stock seats for TA seats(easy bolt-in). I have say in many other cars in my lifetime. As a matter of fact, outside of my house right now there is a Mercedes, a Volvo, and a Lexus(uncle's). Granted all of their seats are nicer than my Camaro's, hehe, but still, my Camaro's aren't all that bad, and I have been in much worse.


Originally posted by ldelaysionl
Any Camaro I've ever been in felt like you were sitting on a cushion on the floor with your feet straight out in front of you, too low to easily see out the windshield (I'm not short either). On top of that, the windshield is too slopey so you don't get a very big field of vision, and the hood is too long so you can't see the road directly in front of you. It's hard to run a road course in a car you literally can't see out of.
Wait, I wasn't gonna get involved with this argument. Never mind. :p

Very true about being insanely low. Also, even in my 95, Devil, you can't see a damn thing past the wipers. But like he said, you get used to it after a few days and you don't even notice it.

trans am seats are the ones I have actually sat in a lot, the new WS6 ones...... they are cheaply built, look cheap from the side, and just are uncomfortable as an actual seating device..... i know you can change the seat back and all but thats for convenience, Im talking about sitting in the seat driving for 5 hours or something.....

I like Ford Lightning seats, those are comfy and still very sporty.... hold u in good while driving hard. Volvo is renown for their seat making.... they are very comfortable for long times..... some of the newer ones I've never sat in are more sportier even with more sportier side bolsters on some R models. Z32 seats are nice and thats a pure drivers sports car. 350z's are probably even nicer....

Point being just cause its a sports car doesn't give it the right to have shitty seats..... to hell with swapping TA seats, why not modify some corvette seats or anything else... I know theres some nice bucket GM seats with leather and good side bolsters that are far more comfy and durable(better for spirited driving) then those cheap F body seats. its like sitting on a cheap folding chair made outta plastic almost lol.

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
trans am seats are the ones I have actually sat in a lot, the new WS6 ones...... they are cheaply built, look cheap from the side, and just are uncomfortable as an actual seating device..... i know you can change the seat back and all but thats for convenience, Im talking about sitting in the seat driving for 5 hours or something.....

I like Ford Lightning seats, those are comfy and still very sporty.... hold u in good while driving hard. Volvo is renown for their seat making.... they are very comfortable for long times..... some of the newer ones I've never sat in are more sportier even with more sportier side bolsters on some R models. Z32 seats are nice and thats a pure drivers sports car. 350z's are probably even nicer....

Point being just cause its a sports car doesn't give it the right to have shitty seats..... to hell with swapping TA seats, why not modify some corvette seats or anything else... I know theres some nice bucket GM seats with leather and good side bolsters that are far more comfy and durable(better for spirited driving) then those cheap F body seats. its like sitting on a cheap folding chair made outta plastic almost lol.

The Vette seat swap is also possible, just more expensive, so not as widespread. The Camaro seats aren't bad at all though. It's over a 5 hour drive to my school, and I've made that trip more times than I can count, along with some even longer trips here and there. And I even have cloth. They're not too bad at all. Definitely no Mercedes, but not noticeably uncomfortable over any distance.

my input:

when i wanted to buy a car in september, I had 3 options:jap,german,american.

At first, I wanted a muscle car (yes, i am a muscle car nut and I will get my 900hp supercharged chevelle with hood scoop after i get my undergrad degree). Living in LA with long, trafficy drives with careless drivers, horrid gas milage, i turned away from this car.

Next option was a 1999 bmw M3. Superafst car. These german cars will whoop most japanese cars like nothing. Why did I opt out? This car is definitely better than my integra, but it cost nearly twice as much. And i would have a limited/no warranty (i tend to drive VERY hard and warranty is a necessity for me), so-so gas milage, high insurance, and high repair bills.

I opted for the integra. actually, i never considered it until i went to the dealership. my best friend bought one a while back and he loved it. very zippy car (no fast though), great gas milage, basically a no-maintence car (my old car cost $400 a month to keep it running), warrantied until 2007. i love my car now, but i know it is something i cannot keep forever. i lacks the speed of a the bmw and the power of a muscle car. For now, the desicion is a compromise for me between gas, realiability, and speed.

Originally posted by sameintheend01
my input:

when i wanted to buy a car in september, I had 3 options:jap,german,american.

At first, I wanted a muscle car (yes, i am a muscle car nut and I will get my 900hp supercharged chevelle with hood scoop after i get my undergrad degree). Living in LA with long, trafficy drives with careless drivers, horrid gas milage, i turned away from this car.

Next option was a 1999 bmw M3. Superafst car. These german cars will whoop most japanese cars like nothing. Why did I opt out? This car is definitely better than my integra, but it cost nearly twice as much. And i would have a limited/no warranty (i tend to drive VERY hard and warranty is a necessity for me), so-so gas milage, high insurance, and high repair bills.

I opted for the integra. actually, i never considered it until i went to the dealership. my best friend bought one a while back and he loved it. very zippy car (no fast though), great gas milage, basically a no-maintence car (my old car cost $400 a month to keep it running), warrantied until 2007. i love my car now, but i know it is something i cannot keep forever. i lacks the speed of a the bmw and the power of a muscle car. For now, the desicion is a compromise for me between gas, realiability, and speed.


ok there is one big hole in your storry...the step down from the M3 (huge step dow but aside that) is an Integra Type R or at least GSR....but you went all the way to an LS:confused:

Ahem? Muscle cars are uncomfortable? You've got to be kidding me. The big block Impalas, GTX's, Chargers, Torino Cobras, Galaxies, AMX's and later Javelins, Catalinas, Monte Carlos, Grand Prixs, GSX's, Wildcats, *takes a breath*, Bel Airs, Fairlanes, Furys, 300 letter series, Monacos, New Yorkers, C3 Corvettes, later C2 Corvettes, Monza Corvairs, GTO's, Gran Sports, high end Mustangs, and Cougars were all loaded to the gills with luxury options and many felt like you were driving your couch down the road at 60mph. Heck, the 1962 Impalas with the 409 could be had with optional tissue dispenser. Now that's luxury!

Now, if you had argued that the majority of imports have better interior fit and finish than the majority of domestic cars, you would've had some merit to the argument.

And by the way, the Camaro/Firebird is an import according to the US Government. It's built almost entirely in St. Therese, Quebec. Also, according to the US Government, the Honda Accord (assembled in Marysville, Ohio) is a domestic.

Don't get into that Camaro is an Import and the Accord is a domestic thing, someone else explained corrected that pretty well either here or in another post. Is the Camaro imported through Canada yeah buts thats where you draw the line as far is it being called an import. The money goes back to a domestic company, therefore, domestic vehicle.

Originally posted by DeViL
Don't get into that Camaro is an Import and the Accord is a domestic thing, someone else explained corrected that pretty well either here or in another post. Is the Camaro imported through Canada yeah buts thats where you draw the line as far is it being called an import. The money goes back to a domestic company, therefore, domestic vehicle.

So the money that's being paid to Nissan's Tennessee plant workers are being paid to foreigners? What about Toyota's Georgia plant? What about Honda's various domestic plants?

Originally posted by Neutrino



ok there is one big hole in your storry...the step down from the M3 (huge step dow but aside that) is an Integra Type R or at least GSR....but you went all the way to an LS:confused:

ahhh yes. When i went to the dealership, i didn't know anything about integras, literally. They only had 2 LS's. I know my BMW's backwards adn forwards. If i was to buy an M3, i would be driving it for a long time. The integra is just transportation for me until i'm outta my undergrad and then i can upgrade.

sorry bout that.

Originally posted by sameintheend01


ahhh yes. When i went to the dealership, i didn't know anything about integras, literally. They only had 2 LS's. I know my BMW's backwards adn forwards. If i was to buy an M3, i would be driving it for a long time. The integra is just transportation for me until i'm outta my undergrad and then i can upgrade.

sorry bout that.

ok cool:)

Originally posted by carrrnuttt


So the money that's being paid to Nissan's Tennessee plant workers are being paid to foreigners? What about Toyota's Georgia plant? What about Honda's various domestic plants?

Exactly. In fact, most American auto workers who are working for foreign manufacturers go on record as saying they've been better treated and better paid working for Honda or Mazda than for General Motors or Ford. Which is true, considering I've been inside of both the Marysville, Ohio Honda Plant and the Ford Cleveland Motor Plant. The Honda plant is clean, relatively quiet, well lit, and work is done cheerfully and effectively. The workers I've talked to there tend to mention "job security" and "benefits" above anything else.

The Ford Plant, however, seems mired in the dank, dark stereotype of Post-Industrial Revolution America. It's noisy, dirty, and difficult to breath inside of. The Ford workers are more older gentlemen who're just waiting for retirement. When I spoke to them, they were more worried about the security of their pensions than ready to praise the corporation they worked for.

It's a different philosophy of business, and that's why quite frequently I feel that the foreign companies are better for workers. I live in a town where near 50% of the middle-aged men were or are GM or Ford workers. I see what was done for them (very little) and then see their undying loyalty to the manufacturers that employed them and can't help but have my faith shaken in American automobiles.

No thats not what I meant I should of made that clearer. When you buy the car, the money is going towards that domestic or import company. The Camaro may be made in Canada but the car goes to a Chevrolet, domestic, dealership, and when a person buys that car, the money goes to Chevrolet, benefitting America. When someone buys an Acura, the money goes to Honda, benefitting Japan. Trade however benefits both countries, just in different ways. Honda gets paid for selling the car, and American employees have more job opportunities and get paid for making and selling the car.

Short term, Accords are still imports and Camaros are still domestics regardless of where they are produced.

All right. I just bring it up because I tend to find this argument silly for one simple reason....

THEY'RE ALL CARS!

There are torquey brutish cars built in England (they call them Bentleys and TVR's). There are big V8's in Japan (Toyota Land Cruiser and Tundra). And there are peaky revvy engines in small nimble well-built cars here in the States (DOHC Neon, for instance). You can't pigeonhole cars by what country they come from, or even by the build philosophy.

Back in the 30's, Ettore Bugatti called the Bentley Speed Six "The world's fastest lorry". His cars were (for the day) technological masterworks compared to the squarish and dull Bentleys. Even still, both the Bugattis and the Bentleys fought hard with each other for overall wins around Europe. Bentley won Le Mans. Bugatti won many Gran Prix. But they were both excellent cars that won races against each other.

Two different philsophies both produced wonderful cars. I'd love to have them both in my garage. If this is the case, then why bother with arguing it?

Originally posted by ldelaysionl
I did not read any of this thread, but I would like to say that this argument is retarded. American cars are not "better" than Japanese cars, and vise versa. Cars are cars, and you have to look at them on an individual basis.

;)

I think we stopped arguing about cars a couple pages back though, don't really need all that. This topic just like every other one, got off topic hahah.

The Ford Plant, however, seems mired in the dank, dark stereotype of Post-Industrial Revolution America. It's noisy, dirty, and difficult to breath inside of. The Ford workers are more older gentlemen who're just waiting for retirement. When I spoke to them, they were more worried about the security of their pensions than ready to praise the corporation they worked for.

Ya know I've never really even thought about that before. Most of these Ford, Chevy, and Dodge, dealerships are pretty cruddy looking when you step into where all the mechanics work. For instance Stohlman Oldsmobile down in Alexandria, that place was just like you said, noisy (all repair areas are going to be noisy), dark and filthy. It was recently taken over by Mercedes which cleaned the place up big time, its a lot cleaner now however the noise level has increased a lot more then before. Mainly because of the material they used around the place and the floors. Those people are going to all be deaf there in a few years. However that Oldsmobile dealership had been there for a very long time, it most likely dated back to the 50's or 60's. I would assume the place looked brand new back then as the Mercedes dealership looks now. However thats no excuse not to clean the place up after a good 45-60 years. Thats management for you they don't give a fuck what your work environment is like as long as your doing the job.

The Mercedes people that own it now don't have any much different of an attitude though. They will keep that place clean but not because they care about their workers, because they are high-class and there buyers wouldn't expect anything less then a clean environment when they step into the maintenance area. Oldsmobile didn't have to do any of that since their company isn't anything special or pricey like Mercedes, so of course they leave it looking like crap. I wouldn't put it past a Honda dealership doing the same thing after a good 40 years in the same dealership.

I know what you mean you go to any Benz or Bimmer dealership and their garages are spotless.......Maybe thats just because them germans make such sound cars;)

Aye....rich Nazis they are.

Originally posted by RACER D12
I know what you mean you go to any Benz or Bimmer dealership and their garages are spotless.......Maybe thats just because them germans make such sound cars;)


HAAAA. I put more oil in my benz than gas!

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
GO NISSAN !!!

lol

;)

Yeah! Go Nissan!!! Not that I don't like the other makes, everyone (I've had my share also) . . . just a matter of personal preference. Mr. K is my hero! :angel:

japan vs american muscle, i'd go wit japan, bcuz i am more around imports alot more. this argue will keep goin until cars STOP! but one thing that ppl who modify American muscle car is that there topspeed, wit modified parts (i have only seen the vipers, vettes clips on top speed stock HP). I think japan ppl have tested out and modified more into their imports then american muscle cars, also u gonna hafta think about the racing course ability on both imports and domestics. I for sure kno there are Domestics out there that can hit 10-7 seconds in 1/4 strip road, it all depends on who, what and what kind a modification that person gets on his/her import/domestics. thats my theory!

Originally posted by Silver_GTR34
I think japan ppl have tested out and modified more into their imports then american muscle cars

The rest is preference and I can't fault you for that. But that part above is just plain wrong. Domestic motors, while they have grown and matured over the days are still basically the same as they've always been for the most part. They have been modified to run hard and fast for a VERY long time and therefore, tuners have the science of modifying them down pat.

I still want to know if you had like a 800 hp Civic (lets say supercharged not turbo), front wheel drive with slicks on it. If you put it in reverse, and I dunno revved it up and stomped on it, could you do a wheelie backwards?

HybridSol you all need to try that with your CRX haha.

Originally posted by DeViL
I still want to know if you had like a 800 hp Civic (lets say supercharged not turbo), front wheel drive with slicks on it. If you put it in reverse, and I dunno revved it up and stomped on it, could you do a wheelie backwards?

HybridSol you all need to try that with your CRX haha.

Someone asked that before, lol. Maybe with a custom rear gear or something, haha.:p

Originally posted by Octagon


Exactly. In fact, most American auto workers who are working for foreign manufacturers go on record as saying they've been better treated and better paid working for Honda or Mazda than for General Motors or Ford. Which is true, considering I've been inside of both the Marysville, Ohio Honda Plant and the Ford Cleveland Motor Plant. The Honda plant is clean, relatively quiet, well lit, and work is done cheerfully and effectively. The workers I've talked to there tend to mention "job security" and "benefits" above anything else.

The Ford Plant, however, seems mired in the dank, dark stereotype of Post-Industrial Revolution America. It's noisy, dirty, and difficult to breath inside of. The Ford workers are more older gentlemen who're just waiting for retirement. When I spoke to them, they were more worried about the security of their pensions than ready to praise the corporation they worked for.

It's a different philosophy of business, and that's why quite frequently I feel that the foreign companies are better for workers. I live in a town where near 50% of the middle-aged men were or are GM or Ford workers. I see what was done for them (very little) and then see their undying loyalty to the manufacturers that employed them and can't help but have my faith shaken in American automobiles.


Thats your opinion... Some poeple I know will buy nothing but import cars..
Some of them CLAIM they "they are better made!...

I remember Toyota a few years back had a add that claimed there was more more % left of Toyota trucks in the past 10 years on the road than anything else, except Chevy and Ford Trcuks ...

I would not trust a Tundra personally, Ford Chvy dodge, Jeep has been testing and perfecting the right way to make a truck last for 70 years... Totota is just getting started, and has much more trial and error, and don't give me this "they can just copy" cause qalot of the good stuff that works or Patented ...


Another reason not to buy import is JOBS, now we all buy import computer stuff, caiuse we have no choice, but auto manufacturing is a big time industrial job maker... everytime you buy a jap crap, you are putting a American out of a job little by little, all for no improvment of quality ot performance.

You might get it cheaper, cause the jap plant owners can sell cheap... cause they treat thier people like SLAVES, Japan workers get paid for 40 hours a week, yet they work overtime for FREE to Honnor thier company (yeah you mean you either honnor us or get fired)..
We here in America Fought to fight for our freedomes to have RIGHTS over these big comany owners who think they are GOD....
Don't get me wrong, I am a Conservative Republican voter, I'm for deversity, and the American succeed.. but to let foreign laws loophole our freedoms is bullcrap....

For every few bucks you save for buying that cheap made jap car, you suport a japanese worker making crap wages, you put out a few million American workers making $20+ hour, that also buys stuff to suport the economy..

Don't give me thhis crap we sell to them to, cause we buy more products by 10 times than any nation buys back per population.
If our nation keeps spending more, and makiong less (less labor) cause we are suporting japan, it will keep diminishing our economy.... it will effect us all...

Don't get me wrong, Do't mean to be hateful to japs, but we have to take care of ourselfs FIRST..

For instance, I'm into home construction...
so I'm not going to lose my job to japan..
But little by little as people lose GOOD jobs here to japan, people will spend less, cause they lose that $20 hour auto worker job to a job making $6 hr at a Gas Station.. They are not going to have the $$$ to buy a new home, new furniture, tools, car parts, home improvment stuff, software, music and on and on...
seling our your county to japan is your chioce... don't whine cause you can't find a good job... But drive a Toyota.


The argument of whick is better is opnion only...
As per performance, esp in 1/4 mile the nod goes to American with the big engines...
for comfort, who can say, for handling, probably japan, for a everyday driver.. it's a toss up.. Japan probably has better mileage, comfort, handling, performance, price all is one package...
but I aam not a nazi, a Comunist, or a iperial japan suporter, like to suport my own economy and buy American when I have a choice.

Sorry, another long winded breath

scott

Hate to break it to you Scott,

But lots of "imports" are made right here in the U.S. by citizens of the United States of America - buying foreign cars isn't taking away any jobs from anybody (except those who didn't do good jobs in the first place) Ed Demming is the man - ford shouldn't have been so arrogant.

Originally posted by Donham



... jap crap


That statement is making you lose a lot of points with me and I'm sure, going to make you lose some from a lot of other people in here.

You started out real smooth...but your bias is showing, zip it up.

Originally posted by Donham


You might get it cheaper, cause the jap plant owners can sell cheap... cause they treat thier people like SLAVES, Japan workers get paid for 40 hours a week, yet they work overtime for FREE to Honnor thier company (yeah you mean you either honnor us or get fired)..
We here in America Fought to fight for our freedomes to have RIGHTS over these big comany owners who think they are GOD....
Don't get me wrong, I am a Conservative Republican voter, I'm for deversity, and the American succeed.. but to let foreign laws loophole our freedoms is bullcrap

If you look at the REAL side of things, a lot of the "American" cars made in the U.S. today not only have a LOT of Japanese electronics and parts...the assembly is being farmed to outside of the U.S....so that your beloved "domestic" companies can save a buck or two.

On the flipside, a lot of the "import" cars you see, including European, are made in the U.S., mostly so they can save on U.S. tariffs, but still made in the U.S....producing more U.S. jobs.


Who's being patriotic now?

I was in Desert Storm, so don't talk to me about patriotism. What you or I drive has NOTHING to do with it.

Don't even start with the Republican thing...it's your GOP buddies' and their cronies' companies (including the Vice-President's) that are headquartering themselves out of the country. They have cost the U.S. about 11 BILLION in taxes that these companies otherwise would've had to pay the government if they were based here. In that sense, your "American" companies aren't even American at all.

It's also no secret that current car standards are the way they are because the Japanese built their cars the way they did. If it weren't for their competition, we would still be mired in gas-swilling (even their four-bangers did this back in the day), low-reliability, cheaply-made cars.

Not a knock against "American" car companies (like DaimlerChrysler :rolleyes: ), but just a bold-faced truth. Yes, I've owned BOTH domestics and imports, so I can talk.

Here's some questions:

Would you rather buy
a) a Ford Ranger or
b) a Mazda B2200

or

a) an Eclipse or
b) an Eagle Talon

or

a) a Mercedes SLK or
b) a Chrysler Crossfire

or

a) a Ford Probe or
b) a Mazda MX-6

or

a) a Chevy Trailblazer or
b) an Isuzu Ascender

or

a) a Geo/Chevy Storm
b) an Isuzu Impulse

...I could go on and waste more bandwidth, but if your ignorant ass didn't know, with all those cars above, a = b.

Think man, THINK. It's getting to be a smaller world. It's not just about the U.S. anymore.

We either learn to live with/tolerate the rest of the world, or we'd be paying 200% more for our purchases. If we lose outside resources, the ones we have get more expensive.

EDIT: About your comments about American auto workers getting laid-off...it's also because their "patriotic" bosses are farming what they can to other countries...Canada with less taxes, Mexico with cheaper labor. So there.

Originally posted by 2strokebloke
Hate to break it to you Scott,

But lots of "imports" are made right here in the U.S. by citizens of the United States of America - buying foreign cars isn't taking away any jobs from anybody (except those who didn't do good jobs in the first place) Ed Demming is the man - ford shouldn't have been so arrogant.



Darn, that was a quick reply, just reading around here, got back and boom...


Your not breaking any news to me...
You got it WRONG, the imports that are made here in USA are ASSEMBLED here, not much labor compared to making all the part, most the parts are still made in japan... sent over here to be put together, so they can avoid a import tax.. it's still the same thing...
They'll send a dashpad, and guages here to USA to be assymbeld just to call the dash bord assymbly a US part, but it isn't
Now I don't dislike or down people who buy imports.... but if you look at the long pisture, imports, not just japan either, are killing our good jobs....
Trade is good, but we have gone too far to kiss a$$ to other nations to help them, and slit our own throats... unemployment is like over 6% now...
I know alot of that is the bad economy ignited mainly by 9/11/01..
but we buy too much slave labor making too many other countries rich richer (while not helping there poor at all) , and they do not return the favor at all, not even near as much...


you may say "who cares about those auto workers job here, I'm okey...
but it comes back on you.... they get laid (did I spell that correct :-)? ) off, was going to buy a couch or a ring or a new VCR at where you or your wife or brother/sister works... not anymore...
not only do more people lose a job, but they have to find other work, some might seek schooling, some tech, it's more competition for you or your loved one to find a good job he/she might have just barely got...

... everything is a domino effect if we keep cutting our own throats... I know alot of stuff like electronics, computer stuff etc etc we have no choice now... but some stuf we do... as long is the price dif isn't 2 times and the same quality, I buy American...
There is just more than the auto plants that suport our auto labor, tons iof small plants around the USA make all sorts of parts for cars...

Anothr windy one... sorry

scott

Also about the "overtime" thing - yeah that's E. Demmings fault. He (an American) went to Japan in the 1950s to help Japan's economy get rolling again, many of his ideas are still used by Japanese companies today, he put an emphasis on quality, and had very good ideas about management - in fact FORD hired him to work over their company, but after Demming bruised exec's egos, they threw him out along with his ideas, guess it all caught up with them now didn't it?
Yes, they do want to honor their company - they won't get fired for not doing "overtime" and you know what else? Demmings plans were so effective that many companies do not have any union labor - afraid they'll get fired is they start a union?... hardly the case, they just don't see the need for one.

Way does everything turn into politics:rolleyes:

Originally posted by RACER D12
Way does everything turn into politics:rolleyes:

Ya got me.

BTW, awesome engine in your profile!

Originally posted by Donham



As per performance, esp in 1/4 mile the nod goes to American with the big engines...
for comfort, who can say, for handling, probably japan, for a everyday driver.. it's a toss up.. Japan probably has better mileage, comfort, handling, performance, price all is one package...

scott

Here, you create hypocrasy. You say that American cars have big engines and jap cars have better gas milage. So, with your big engine, you by more gas/oil which we IMPORT from the middle east. So either way, you are gonna import.

what i don't understand is how can you say the japanese's quality is not much improved over an american. you know back in the 60's the auto assembly plants have good days and bad days. people would just come into work all hung over from the weekend, and put the car together. so if you purchased a car, the headlight or bumper would fall off for no reason, becuase of the poor craftsmanship. and when that happens, there is a saying " i guess yoru car was built on a monday" i'm sure that you have heard of that. it was the japanese that forced to united states car maker to realize "holyshit" we gotta start changin the way we do things, the japanese are makin better (quality) cars then us. and thats when the u.s started tryin to make cars to match the japanese, not to mention the ever tightening emissions laws, that put american motors out of business. remember, there was only one car ever in the united states that was able to run clean enough even without a cat, is a honda. even backtehn they were makin cleaner cars.

a) a Ford Probe or b) a mazda mx-6

Neither, 626 baby! It all depends on preference, and you needs. Domestics have their perks, as do imports.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt



That statement is making you lose a lot of points with me and I'm sure, going to make you lose some from a lot of other people in here.

You started out real smooth...but your bias is showing, zip it up.




Getting a little hot headed aren't we, I am no more biased than you or the next guy, we all lhave what we love more..
The "Jap Crap" is a long old statement, it's no racial nor is it foul... I do guess it might ofend some import car owners, So I'll try and keep it out, but we are all biased to some degree.

Your argument of domestic car companies buying more overseas products than import dealers is "pure bull"...
you chose to find rare extreme examples and magnify them..

You beleive what you want.. and to who thinks the GOP's are my friends, I did mentain I'm a Republican, but not because I'm buddies with them or love them, I vote for the lesser of the two evils..

Serving in Desert Storm has nothing to do with our argument..

And remember, we are only arguing abut a piece of metal, a piece of machinry.. thats all they are, if you get upset over that, you really should take a break...

I am happy to hear people on here talk down in domestics, it means I have some competition, it means when it comes time to buy a domestic car or parts it's less people to buy what I like before I do.

it's the same way I looked at gay men, don't hate em, heck it saves more women for me... well at least it did years back...
I don't let evry little dinky think offend me...

This domestic vs japan argument is all about people who are mostly biased, but it's been pretty friendly for the most part...

rivalries mean competition, and thats means more fun.... I have a 4200 lb car,
I could drop the 493 into a 3500-3600 lb car or a 3100-3200 lb car and run with the big domestiid boys.. and be too much for any street legal import...
So I'm building a heavyweight sleeper, and the mid to light weight serious detroit
iron is gonna be too much.
I have to pick on the "dinky" turbio engine jap cars to come out even in this big engine heavyweight ocean liner..

Scott

I consider the term "Jap" itself to be a racist statement.

Originally posted by RedNeck383
this is no where near 2000hp... but its pretty damn sweet none-the-less. :D

http://www.hotrod.com/hotrod/roadtests/p166873_image_large.jpg
Green Slime (http://www.hotrod.com/roadtests/89158/)

Nissan is my favorite car maker ever, but I would take a VETTE or a VIPER any day over any car, even a Skyline, Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren(well unless someone is handing me the keys for free).

Nothing beats American Muscle :D

Donham...

I myself am a subscriber to Republican thought. That being said, I am also a realist. The American economy, as I have learned in my meager six years (yeas, since I was 12) of socio-economic philosophy & theory, no longer exists in the form it existed in circa 1970. You yourself said it, "I'm going into home construction" and as such you won't lose your job to overseas competition. This is true, because home construction is a service trade. The American industrial economy has folded like the deck of cards it became when the UAW asserted its power in the mid-1950's.

Here's the scenario.

The UAW formed in the 1920's/1930's to better working conditions and treatment of assembly line workers. A noble cause. Unfortunately, this became a group solely dedicated to wringing as much money out of the big three as possible for as long as possible. Once management lost control of the workers, they were forced to deal with constant strike threats and became ersatz slaves to their workers. (proletariat versus aristocrat, anyone? ) A perfect example is General Motors. As of this year, because of Union contracts, GM has over 12 BILLION DOLLARS in unfinanced pension debt. In other words, the number of retirees at GM with large Union pensions is so great that GM cannot pay them.

It's like this all across the board, not only in the auto industry, but in raw materials, railroads, machine goods, and other assembly line reliant industries.

More or less, the Union secured their job security, not that of future workers.

In order to dodge this, more American companies are forced to more inexpensive overseas labor just to stay afloat. Even that modern day symbol of American Muscle, the Camaro, was assembled in French Canada.

Now, where does the import crowd come into this?

With a new service centric economy in play in the US, foreign countries pick up the slack in the production/industrial economy. The interesting part, though, is where the slack is being taken up. Second and third world countries, where there is little or scarce modernization, now become prime centers for inexpensive industry and production. With the added funding that this brings to these regions, more American goods can be bought and political allegiances can be formed. Malayasia is a good example of this. With a massive influx of foreign money (like from Mattel) Malayasia became a financial powerhouse in the far east. Kuala Lumpur is now a very talked about city and Malayasia is a strong supporter of the US.

When you produce goods in another land, that other land buys your goods because they were paid by you. Today's economy is service based at home, and is global-centric in every respect. "Buy American", rings true, but it's of no help at home. But if you scream it at the people whom the companies hire to build our goods abroad, then there's money back in the pockets of Americans who can use it to further our lives. Imperialism, nowadays, isn't found in territories and military might, it's found in the Fortune 500 and on the Nasdaq. Only by conquering new markets can a country (and an economy) stay strong in the modern world.

Donham:

1) Coming from a family with members that fought in WWII against the Japanese...the term "Jap" is very derogatory, and will not be tolerated on this board as a term of reference for a nation of people, or nationality of individuals...some who are American citizens.

2) When I mentioned that "your bias is showing", that is referencing the fact that you started this thread seeming to want an open frank discussion of facts. By the time it got to that post that I responded to, you were just simply spewing propaganda. The propaganda equates to basically "you're not supporting your country if you don't drive cars that (you percieve) are American".

You have obviously made up your mind about this issue. If you consider the Japanese, or any other foreign economy for that matter, "competition" rather than allies for progress (they scratch our backs, we scratch theirs), then I'm glad you are not an economist/politician...although a lot of old "narrow sphinctered" people in Congress/the Senate do carry your beliefs.

I respect O.G. racers dude. For reals, they have all the money to soop-up their car and they are really good at driving (the O.G. racers, not the old grandma and grandpa... no offense)...

Originally posted by SiXPuSHA
I consider the term "Jap" itself to be a racist statement.

The English use it alot (ignorance) and i'm incline to agree :comprage1

Originally posted by SiXPuSHA
I consider the term "Jap" itself to be a racist statement.


You got to be kidding?

You know something, I am part German, don't speak it or never bee nthere, but have had peeople and friend call me Kraut... to some thats a racist statement, but I just laugh...... "yep!", people let words bother other too ofter, I can understand the "N" word, because it was abused prety bad back in the 40's 50's, 60's and 70's some, it's not used much anymore...

Once while helping a friend of mine working on his Dana60 in his 67 GTX, I blurted out the words "This thing is n!gger Rigged"... did I mentain the owner of the GTX is a African American (black guy)?

Now "n!gger rigged" is just a slang statment for something that is not put together right... and he knew what I ment..
Does that make me a racist? or does the fact, I can hang with him and not even see color (just another friend) and do not have to my mind thought that he is black all the time....
Yep, it was a long old statment, I just forgot he was black.... Why shoudl I keep that in my head all the time, he a friend, not a just a black friend..

The "N" word or "Kraut" or "Kyke" could be racial, but" Jap" is just a shortend word for Japanese... and thats all it is, but you can get upset at almost anything you want to make yourself get upset about if thats the life you live..

scott

Originally posted by carrrnuttt
Donham:

1) Coming from a family with members that fought in WWII against the Japanese...the term "Jap" is very derogatory, and will not be tolerated on this board as a term of reference for a nation of people, or nationality of individuals...some who are American citizens.

2) When I mentioned that "your bias is showing", that is referencing the fact that you started this thread seeming to want an open frank discussion of facts. By the time it got to that post that I responded to, you were just simply spewing propaganda. The propaganda equates to basically "you're not supporting your country if you don't drive cars that (you percieve) are American".

You have obviously made up your mind about this issue. If you consider the Japanese, or any other foreign economy for that matter, "competition" rather than allies for progress (they scratch our backs, we scratch theirs), then I'm glad you are not an economist/politician...although a lot of old "narrow sphinctered" people in Congress/the Senate do carry your beliefs.


Seems to me this all is a friendly little this vs that thread, and instead of finding a legit response to my post,, so you find something silly like "Jap crap" because you fail to win in changing someones mind in a friendly argument.
If I'd posted something about American junk, or something negative about American cars would you have said anything.? Maybe since your a moderator, you can delete peoples posts since you fail to convice in a simple dissagreement of what could be better.
Your trying to make this into something nasty as it has not been...
The Term Jap is part of the Word Japanese, racial terms for Asians are words like (I'll only put the words here for referance) "Chink"_ or "gook" ... Safe to say..
Yes I am Biased to favor American cars, but thats doesn't mean I hate other races either, I'm maybe a little over patriotic...

I'm not going to post in this American vs Japoaese car thread anymore..
Too much name calling now (I can't win the legit argument so I'll just call you a Racist to get everyone mad at you reponse)

And yes, the USA econmy vs Japanese Econmy thing was my post and my fault for getting this bad thing started at the end of a long friendly thread...
Will not ever get into the Natinal econmoy thing here on this board (if I'm alowed to be here) anymore..
I will leave here and say I'm am at fault.

scott

Why wouldn't you be allowed here anymore? Don't worry, if and when you aren't allowed here anymore, you'll know for sure...Because you won't be allowed to log onto the site:biggrin: Don't worry just yet though, no one is waving the :banhim: flag yet, hehe.

Originally posted by Donham

Seems to me this all is a friendly little this vs that thread, and instead of finding a legit response to my post,, so you find something silly like "Jap crap" because you fail to win in changing someones mind in a friendly argument.
If I'd posted something about American junk, or something negative about American cars would you have said anything.? Maybe since your a moderator, you can delete peoples posts since you fail to convice in a simple dissagreement of what could be better.
Your trying to make this into something nasty as it has not been...
The Term Jap is part of the Word Japanese, racial terms for Asians are words like (I'll only put the words here for referance) "Chink"_ or "gook" ... Safe to say..
Yes I am Biased to favor American cars, but thats doesn't mean I hate other races either, I'm maybe a little over patriotic...

I'm not going to post in this American vs Japoaese car thread anymore..
Too much name calling now (I can't win the legit argument so I'll just call you a Racist to get everyone mad at you reponse)

And yes, the USA econmy vs Japanese Econmy thing was my post and my fault for getting this bad thing started at the end of a long friendly thread...
Will not ever get into the Natinal econmoy thing here on this board (if I'm alowed to be here) anymore..
I will leave here and say I'm am at fault.

scott

"Narrow minds make wide accusations"

Originally posted by Donham

"...you find something silly like "Jap crap" because you fail to win in changing someones mind in a friendly argument."

---I never wanted to change your mind. I was hoping that you could open your mind, though.

---"Jap crap" is not silly, it's derogatory. Will you be happy if a Japanese called what we make "American junk"? Besides, as I've tried to point out, half of what you're calling "Jap crap" is made by Americans. If you want to call it "assembled", then fine. Either way, these American hands paid with American dollars, spending what they earned in the U.S..

Originally posted by Donham

"...Maybe since your a moderator, you can delete peoples posts since you fail to convice in a simple dissagreement of what could be better."

---YOU are the one that's searching for "what's better". I'm not going to try and convince you of anything I don't believe in. If you open your eyes, you'll realize that everything has it's advantages and disadvantages. If you really want the "what's better" argument to go on, I suggest that you research Car and Driver's 10 best list for the past decade that they've been doing the list. Tell us what the percentage of vehicles from a "domestic brand" is on that list.

Originally posted by Donham

"...The Term Jap is part of the Word Japanese, racial terms for Asians are words like (I'll only put the words here for referance) "Chink"_ or "gook" ... Safe to say.."

---"Jap" is the word one of my great uncles and grandfather used to describe the Japanese they fought against in WWII. This is how I know how to qualify my next sentence. It is not about the word itself...it's in the context of how you use it. "Jap" has NEVER been used in any kind of good context, as far as I know. On the flipside, I have never heard or read of anybody speaking of the Japanese with respect as "Jap".

Originally posted by Donham

"...Yes I am Biased to favor American cars, but thats doesn't mean I hate other races either..."

---Again, if you'd read and understood any of my previous posts, the (current) lines are being blurred as to what cars are exactly "American" and what are "imports". back in the 60's and 70's...which is where your mindset seems to be stuck...this line would've been very defined. Not anymore. Now, if you want to define "domestic" vs. "non-domestic", all the cars you can buy legally from any dealership in the U.S., including Kias, are "domestic". This is why Honda's are defined as USDM (US Domestic Market) and (JDM Japan Domestic market). Ford, that "most American" of companies, has Ford Pumas, Kas, Mondeos, Focus RSs, Fieras (yes, Fiera) that are NOT, and more than likely, NEVER WILL BE sold in the US. Are THOSE cars domestic?

Originally posted by Donham

"...I'm maybe a little over patriotic..."

---THIS is why I mentioned my service in Desert Storm...you equating buying a certain type of vehicle as "patriotism"...which it's not. You're mindset is exactly what will alienate us from the rest of the world...which if you haven't been noticing, has been progressing along nicely...and destroy our economy which supports our military might...which is the only thing holding back the threat of our country turning into another Jerusalem.

---Read the above paragraph again, until you understand it.

Originally posted by Donham

"...Will not ever get into the Natinal econmoy thing here on this board (if I'm alowed to be here) anymore..
I will leave here and say I'm am at fault."


---NOBODY has blamed you here for ANYTHING, other than having a narrow view of the world around you, which in turn seems to affect how you do in arguments that require a broad mindset...such as Economics.

---If you give half the people here a chance, you'll see that a LOT of people in here share your admiration and respect for certain cars...what YOU need to share with them is their respect/admiration for the rest of them.

:iagree:
Very good and mature way to explain your point of fews Carrrnuttt

Donham gotta give you the :bigthumb: for appolgiseing for your insulting others not intesionly. even though i'm with carnut gotta say good job on not being another person who just outright flames everybody who doesn't agree.

Originally posted by Donham



Seems to me this all is a friendly little this vs that thread, and instead of finding a legit response to my post,, so you find something silly like "Jap crap" because you fail to win in changing someones mind in a friendly argument.
If I'd posted something about American junk, or something negative about American cars would you have said anything.? Maybe since your a moderator, you can delete peoples posts since you fail to convice in a simple dissagreement of what could be better.
Your trying to make this into something nasty as it has not been...
The Term Jap is part of the Word Japanese, racial terms for Asians are words like (I'll only put the words here for referance) "Chink"_ or "gook" ... Safe to say..
Yes I am Biased to favor American cars, but thats doesn't mean I hate other races either, I'm maybe a little over patriotic...

I'm not going to post in this American vs Japoaese car thread anymore..
Too much name calling now (I can't win the legit argument so I'll just call you a Racist to get everyone mad at you reponse)

And yes, the USA econmy vs Japanese Econmy thing was my post and my fault for getting this bad thing started at the end of a long friendly thread...
Will not ever get into the Natinal econmoy thing here on this board (if I'm alowed to be here) anymore..
I will leave here and say I'm am at fault.

scott

There is a good book you should read, its called American History from 1492-present, written by Howard Zinn, should read it, would open your mind up, did for me, but thats just my .02cents

Originally posted by Ace$nyper
Donham gotta give you the :bigthumb: for appolgiseing for your insulting others not intesionly. even though i'm with carnut gotta say good job on not being another person who just outright flames everybody who doesn't agree.

I said I wouldn't post here, but yes, I' was wrong to bring the econmoy debate into this..


Yes I am pro American produts, if I have the choice, I do believe in helping ourselfs out first, on the flip side, I feel sorry for the poor 3rd world people that are victoms of Companies like Nike Shoes who move over to Indonisia (or somewhere like that) who pay those people slave labor wages and long hours , and still have the nerve to charge the same price to make more profits..

As far as the Japanese go, they are a triving nation, and to me it's us vs them, not in the racial sense, as people they are cool, but it's thier economy vs ours, we DO NOT scratch each other back, we sell out to them, they buiy maybe $1 over every $100-200 we buy from them, not a fair trade..

I do not take back the Term "Jap", I do know some people take it the wrong way, but it's not the way I mean it...
For an Example, Have you heard the Term "Brit" used for British people? the
Term "Pols" used for Polish people? the
Term "Ausis" used for Austrailian people?
Term "Yanks" used for American?
or sometimes called "Ammis"
Ruskis for Russians etc etc etc...

I even wander if the word "Rice Car" is kinda somewhat racy, I hear Jap Car owners here talk about thier "Ricers"..
But maybe alot of those poor class Japanese people do not have anything else to eat... I know you guys do not mean it thats way, but while on the subject...

A TRUE Racist commentis like calling someone from Samolia a N!gger, a Korean/Japanese/Veitnamese a gook or Chink... a Jewish person a Kyke (not sure if thats spelled correct)... a German a Kraut, a Hispanic a Spic or Wetback..
Some of the above words are just words... But have been abused too often..

This is all just argument over opionions... but when someone gets mad over this silly argument and trys to -MORE OR LESS- say about who he's arguing with "look everyone, he said -Jap-, he must be a racist, so to get everyone mad at me.!"
or at least thats how I saw it,,, Modetrators are supost to help calm the piece, not try to get people more upset.. by blindly slapping a "biggot" sticker on someone back for not totally aggreeing with em...


I will say I was also wrong for saying people are not patrotic for buying jap cars... we all buy Japanese products, just auto is the big money, and people like the new stuff, japanese products are whats new (compard to Detroit cars), magazine people always blow off about how they love em and how they are the best... it's Thier OPINION..
Like I said my best Hunting buddy buys nothing but Japaese autos, and says American stuff is junk... we argue, but are still good friends.. WE have not really proven to one another who is right.

Lastly replying to the post, Yes, We are Adults here, no sense it -flamming- someone over this stuff, I probably did outdo myself to get under the japan car lovers skin a little, so Carrmuttt probably has a good reason to be a little bit hot at me...
I do not have very good charactor...

There is 1000's of places to post on the net about racing and imports.., but I noticed alot of intellect and maturity here (even you for the most part Carrmuttt) about ALL cars in General..

Lets stop this Racist Stuff (that never really happened) and talk cars again for god sake.... I have a question to post in another topic about quickest imports.

scott

:banhim:

Originally posted by RedNeck383
:banhim:

I agree Matt, and he has been banned.

For those that will never get to read THE JUDGE's precious words, they were designed to ridicule a fellow member, and start a flame war.

Of course, THE JUDGE can always post again as his alter ego, extreem_boi, right extreem?

Do that again, extreem, and you're banned.

The moderators will be watching, trust me.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt

Of course, THE JUDGE can always post again as his alter ego, extreem_boi, right extreem?

Do that again, extreem, and you're banned.

The moderators will be watching, trust me.

Oh yes we will:mad:

Darn!! Did I get here too late? I wanted to spread my knowledge. :bloated:

Originally posted by Ringo
Darn!! Did I get here too late? I wanted to spread my knowledge. :bloated:

You didn't miss anything, we just all unanimously decided that European cars OWN all:bigthumb:

Originally posted by RACER D12


You didn't miss anything, we just all unanimously decided that European cars OWN all:bigthumb:

Of course, everybody knows that!

i didnt read this whole tred so i dont know if this has been said befor but also some down sides of high power american muscle are rough idle, loud idle, bad cornering, and more engine problems. But at the same time the engine problems of an import are very technical and harder to fix. If you ask me you can even comair imports and domestics. There so different. Also i dont know much about expensive supercars but arent mclarens and lamborgines and firaries (i know so little i cant even spell them) imported to the US so that makes them imports to and that broadens the catagorie allot.

Originally posted by High Octane
i didnt read this whole tred so i dont know if this has been said befor but also some down sides of high power american muscle are rough idle, loud idle, bad cornering, and more engine problems. But at the same time the engine problems of an import are very technical and harder to fix. If you ask me you can even comair imports and domestics. There so different. Also i dont know much about expensive supercars but arent mclarens and lamborgines and firaries (i know so little i cant even spell them) imported to the US so that makes them imports to and that broadens the catagorie allot.


If you build the motor right, it wont have problems. That goes for your back yard Chevy 350 motor to a Highly built SR20DET from some pro shop.

Bad cornering?... Guess you missed out on the last 35 years of the F-Body and still the Mustang... Both are very fast cars. And both can turn corners like nobodies business. Lets not even get started on the whole 'Vette and Viper handling thing... those cars just Own most anything in stock form.

:lol: For Pete's sake man... its Ferrari!:slap:

Oh yeah...F bodies...Turn on a dime...riiiighhtt >.>..And Mustangs..Wooo..with their BAD AZZ .90 LATERAL G's!! WOOO MONSTEROUS!! a whole .01 GREATER THAN A CIVIC!!! AWESOME!!

Don't diss the Mustang..... :thefinger

I didn't diss it..I simply did a comparison of it...I have no idea what you're talking about...What is this diss you speak of :confused:







NOT ONLY WILL I DISS THE MUSTANG!!!!But I will e-slap both the horse...AND THE cobra....Oh yeah....

Too bad the new cobra OWNS you..... :owned:

but the new cobra does NOT own me...For the new cobra can be outhandled by a MAXIMA!!!!!!...my Lugz can hold more lateral G's than a cobra:lol: :lol: .......Anywho...I still like the cobra and all..Too bad it;s a pile of donkey crap without the S/C...I mean..Look at the Mach 1...And there you have a Modified S/C'less Cobra....Whoopie!
Muscle cars need to have COJONES without forced induction...And they have to turn like yachts....

What a sarcastic asshole, F-bodies and Mustang have always handled good for their times. No they don't turn on a dime and of course your M3 is better but they are better then most cars out there. Thats a part of what has made Mustangs and F-bodies fun to drive.

Originally posted by DeViL
What a sarcastic asshole, F-bodies and Mustang have always handled good for their times. No they don't turn on a dime and of course your M3 is better but they are better then most cars out there. Thats a part of what has made Mustangs and F-bodies fun to drive.

Ill take American Muscle any day over German Shit, I beat a 98 M3 in a 2000 GT stang, that was with no traction off the line while hte M3 has all that traction technology. What a over priced piece of shit. They may pimp chicks, but when it comes down to being a real car, american muscle owns and from my experience, is even more reliable.

Alright lets close this. It will be brought up a couple months later so we can continue there.

While I am one of Fords biggest detrators, I don't think crowing about a minor handling advantage to the Maxima or M3 is called for. None of us drive our cars to the edge of their traction. We do however quite often move off the line as fast as it'll go.

I have a 87LX, that will pull over 73mph in a slalom, and pull 1g on the skid pad.

I have coilovers, panhard bar, torque arm, front springs are 400lbs, and rear are 350, and caster and camber plates. All parts are from Maximum Motorsports.

I also own a GTR, if I go racing guess which one will win:biggrin:

Originally posted by RedNeck383



If you build the motor right, it wont have problems. That goes for your back yard Chevy 350 motor to a Highly built SR20DET from some pro shop.

Bad cornering?... Guess you missed out on the last 35 years of the F-Body and still the Mustang... Both are very fast cars. And both can turn corners like nobodies business. Lets not even get started on the whole 'Vette and Viper handling thing... those cars just Own most anything in stock form.

:lol: For Pete's sake man... its Ferrari!:slap:

well maybe i should look at some american muscle then. Like i said I CANT SPELL. i am a :loser:

well maybe i should look at some american muscle then.

GOOD! :bigthumb:

Originally posted by JBL85


Ill take American Muscle any day over German Shit, I beat a 98 M3 in a 2000 GT stang, that was with no traction off the line while hte M3 has all that traction technology. What a over priced piece of shit. They may pimp chicks, but when it comes down to being a real car, american muscle owns and from my experience, is even more reliable.

German shit:angryfire:banhim: With narrow minded statements like that I think I speak for everyone when I say your not welcome here.

Second unless that GT was modified I have to throw up the:bs: flag. Your trying to get us to beleave that you beat a 13sec car in a 15sec one:sly: Now I am not saying it couldnt happen, maybe he missed a shift or something, but dont act like its norm for GT's to beat M3's. Sounds to me like you just got pissed off because you felt your car company was being attacked so you just tried to get back at the person by saying you beat a car the same kind and year as theres. Please people grow up :nono:

Originally posted by RACER D12


You didn't miss anything, we just all unanimously decided that European cars OWN all:bigthumb:
you wish :biggrin2:

Originally posted by RACER D12


German shit:angryfire:banhim: With narrow minded statements like that I think I speak for everyone when I say your not welcome here.

Second unless that GT was modified I have to throw up the:bs: flag. Your trying to get us to beleave that you beat a 13sec car in a 15sec one:sly: Now I am not saying it couldnt happen, maybe he missed a shift or something, but dont act like its norm for GT's to beat M3's. Sounds to me like you just got pissed off because you felt your car company was being attacked so you just tried to get back at the person by saying you beat a car the same kind and year as theres. Please people grow up :nono:

damn...i missed a lot...ah well...

1st, the 2000 GT isn't a 15 second car, more like a 14.0 car. the late 90's m3's pull low 14's all day as well, so it'd be a very close race. i understand u want him to be more open minded, but plz, have accurate times atleast in ur arguement.:bigthumb:

Originally posted by Shinez
but the new cobra does NOT own me...


Yes, I forgot.. BMW's are just king of the road. I'll be sure to watch out for you Mr. Man.. with you 'drop in filter' and exhaust.

WATCH OUT GUYS... HES GOT A...A FILTER!!!!!

Originally posted by JBL85


Ill take American Muscle any day over German Shit, I beat a 98 M3 in a 2000 GT stang, that was with no traction off the line while hte M3 has all that traction technology. What a over priced piece of shit. They may pimp chicks, but when it comes down to being a real car, american muscle owns and from my experience, is even more reliable.

Come on now..You think I baught the M3 for stictly racing purposes?..Hell no..If I wanted a "racing M3" I would have gotten a Super lightweight M3 as compared to the bulky standard E36 M3....yeah I'll race it from time to time, but from day 1 I had no intention of going all out on it....That's what the Rx-7 and Civic are for..

Originally posted by Shinez


Come on now..You think I baught the M3 for stictly racing purposes?..Hell no..If I wanted a "racing M3" I would have gotten a Super lightweight M3 as compared to the bulky standard E36 M3....yeah I'll race it from time to time, but from day 1 I had no intention of going all out on it....That's what the Rx-7 and Civic are for..


Hmm ok then... But by the looks of things... It seems like your M3 would still be as fast if not a bit faster than your Civic and Rx-7.

Any clue as to what your play cars run?

Originally posted by RedNeck383



Hmm ok then... But by the looks of things... It seems like your M3 would still be as fast if not a bit faster than your Civic and Rx-7.

Any clue as to what your play cars run?

i'd say his vic is around low 14's...MAYBE high 13's.

so his "built" car isn't' much quicker than his M3 if at all...

Originally posted by RedNeck383



Yes, I forgot.. BMW's are just king of the road. I'll be sure to watch out for you Mr. Man.. with you 'drop in filter' and exhaust.

WATCH OUT GUYS... HES GOT A...A FILTER!!!!!


Oh! look who's talking, some yokel pushing a Nova.:icon16:

Originally posted by Ringo



Oh! look who's talking, some yokel pushing a Nova.:icon16:


Oh really Mr. Man...

I suppose your Taurus is any better?:rolleyes:

Actually i'd assume it ran faster than High 13's..simply because the car ran 14.4@99.3 when the engine was in "purchased condition"....With the stock honda torsen LSD, lightened flywheel(done by the installers before purchase)...And my car is of course gutted(Not to the extreme, I still have door cards...but, no carpet sparco corsa's no center console no deadener no spare and lexan side windows(still glass windsheild and hatch due to legality)...but since the modifications i havn't been able to run it...I need new axles, and a new rear quarter to my Transmission case.......DAMN CHEAPLY MADE JAPANESE CARS..but..I love it.....
I don't know the Rx-7 at all..I havn't driven it "hardcore" yet..I've been mainly toying around with drifting and what not...Pretty advantageous when it comes to learning balance.

Originally posted by KrNxRaCer00


damn...i missed a lot...ah well...

1st, the 2000 GT isn't a 15 second car, more like a 14.0 car. the late 90's m3's pull low 14's all day as well, so it'd be a very close race. i understand u want him to be more open minded, but plz, have accurate times atleast in ur arguement.:bigthumb:

I've seen late 90s M3's run high 13's but maybe im thinking of the newer ones, my bad:bricks1: However are you sure about the GT from what I have seen and heard their not that fast stock. I mean if they were 14sec cars I think we would all be hearing more good things about them. Where did you get your numbers?

Originally posted by RACER D12


I've seen late 90s M3's run high 13's but maybe im thinking of the newer ones, my bad:bricks1: However are you sure about the GT from what I have seen and heard their not that fast stock. I mean if they were 14sec cars I think we would all be hearing more good things about them. Where did you get your numbers?

The newer GTs are low 14 second cars. Driven one myself to a 14.3 with a bad 60', so I knowthey can do even better. Yet to see one pass in th 13s hough, and I've seen ~50 different ones run here at sea level. It'd be a close race...To close for me to bet either way.

Originally posted by RedNeck383



Oh really Mr. Man...

I suppose your Taurus is any better?:rolleyes:


My Taurus is so powerfull it rips transmissions apart, i've changed it twice.
And it takes the corners so tightly that the winshields crack!

Originally posted by RACER D12


German shit:angryfire:banhim: With narrow minded statements like that I think I speak for everyone when I say your not welcome here.

Second unless that GT was modified I have to throw up the:bs: flag. Your trying to get us to beleave that you beat a 13sec car in a 15sec one:sly: Now I am not saying it couldnt happen, maybe he missed a shift or something, but dont act like its norm for GT's to beat M3's. Sounds to me like you just got pissed off because you felt your car company was being attacked so you just tried to get back at the person by saying you beat a car the same kind and year as theres. Please people grow up :nono:

Im so Open minded that I went from liking German cars to disliking them and liking American cars. I've driven both, interior on german cars is Decent, I still like Lexus interior better, although the S class and CL class mercedes are pretty sweet. BMW is a very nice looking car but its not for me.

Keep in mind a 98 M3 is not a 13 second car. Here is how we determined this, we went to the track with a GT stang with a K&N filter and an M3 with Intake and exhaust. It was about 85* outside. Since the guy in the M3 wasnt the best driver and wouldnt let me drive his car, I drove the GT since I was not experienced with it. I hit a 14.1 with no traction. He hit a 14.4 with a good launch. Thats not B.S. thats actually driving and he admitted he drove his best without miss shifting.

I believe M3's can easily hit 13s with good weather and a good driver, but the reliablity of a highly tuned BMW motor to run reliable is not something I have heard. GT stangs have hit high 13's numerous times in stock form. This is not a suprise my friends stang was picking on an M3 like it was cake....or more like I was since I was driving. This mustang with just exhaust and the K&N intake has beaten many S2000's as well, this is from a dead stop up until high speeds, so its no slug. I talk from expereince, many of my friends have/had m3's, usually blowing a water pump or interior falling apart. The GT stang is my good friends car, that thing has 50000 miles on it and is almost bullet proof, and this guy doesnt even take care of his car.

By the way, Neither American or German cars are my company, I love Nissan and will stick with them. But if it came down to buying a Supercar, I would buy American, if it came down to Luxury, it would be Lexus or a very expensive Mercedes.

Nick

Originally posted by JBL85


Im so Open minded that I went from liking German cars to disliking them and liking American cars. I've driven both, interior on german cars is Decent, I still like Lexus interior better, although the S class and CL class mercedes are pretty sweet. BMW is a very nice looking car but its not for me.

Keep in mind a 98 M3 is not a 13 second car. Here is how we determined this, we went to the track with a GT stang with a K&N filter and an M3 with Intake and exhaust. It was about 85* outside. Since the guy in the M3 wasnt the best driver and wouldnt let me drive his car, I drove the GT since I was not experienced with it. I hit a 14.1 with no traction. He hit a 14.4 with a good launch. Thats not B.S. thats actually driving and he admitted he drove his best without miss shifting.

I believe M3's can easily hit 13s with good weather and a good driver, but the reliablity of a highly tuned BMW motor to run reliable is not something I have heard. GT stangs have hit high 13's numerous times in stock form. This is not a suprise my friends stang was picking on an M3 like it was cake....or more like I was since I was driving. This mustang with just exhaust and the K&N intake has beaten many S2000's as well, this is from a dead stop up until high speeds, so its no slug. I talk from expereince, many of my friends have/had m3's, usually blowing a water pump or interior falling apart. The GT stang is my good friends car, that thing has 50000 miles on it and is almost bullet proof, and this guy doesnt even take care of his car.

By the way, Neither American or German cars are my company, I love Nissan and will stick with them. But if it came down to buying a Supercar, I would buy American, if it came down to Luxury, it would be Lexus or a very expensive Mercedes.

Nick

Very fascinating...:rolleyes: If you havent noticed, BMW is not trying to compete with your ductape constructed American cars. If they where they would have installed their V8, with over 400 hp stock, which would bitchslap any domestic dong that the big three can jumble together.

and if you really were to pick an American car over a German one, well that's probably because you're a neanderthal that couldn't tell the difference between living in a cave eating rotting animals and living in a penthouse in Manhattan dining at fine restaurants.

No wonder you were the Beatle that never got any chicks. :loser:

There ARE crappily built German cars (Trabants, BMW Isettas, Messerschmidt KR500s, diesel Mercedes-Benz sedans from the late 70's, Volkswagen Buses and Kammbacks). There ARE crappily built Japanese cars (Suzuki Swifts, Isuzus for the most part, 80's Mitsubishis for the most part). There ARE crappily built American cars (Ford Pinto, Edsel, AMC Pacer, Chevy Vega).

But there are good cars that come from these countries as well. Cars are like people, you've got to take them one at a time and judge accordingly otherwise you'll just miss out.

Originally posted by Octagon
No wonder you were the Beatle that never got any chicks. :loser:



Yeah Yeah!:biggrin2:
You're right about giving all cars a chance, but I've seen too many Neons running around with peeling paint, peeling paint on a 5 year old car? I had a BMW from 1975, the paint is so rich that it never peeled off.
And comparing an M3 to a Mustang, even if the Mustang is faster, honestly, you look at these cars underneath at the dealer's showroom and they are already rusted! RUSTED! never been driven, you're paying the inflated sticker price for a Mustang and you're buying a rusted car. The paint quality is inferior, and the aesthetic of the design...there is none, probably the same designer that designed the cinder block is now designing Mustangs.

I had a BMW from 1975, the paint is so rich that it never peeled off.
Do you realize that is because you took care of that car? It's not like I haven't seen an old BMW around this area that looked like shit, from peeled paint to rusted mufflers dangling a centimeter off the ground.

Whatever I'm not going to push that any further. This topic is done someone fucking close it.

When will people get it into their heads that (again) THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BETTER, when it comes to over-all. There is just what's best for YOU.

Even Nissan's R390, or Mclaren's F1, or Saleen's S7 has its drawbacks...and not everybody would want one, crazy as it might sound. Hell, the Pinto, the Fiestas, and the Azteks got bought by SOMEBODY.


Just a thought...

...do Japanese or German drivers argue about import vs domestic?

...do Italians ever have to justify their domestics?

...will this thread ever end?

Dunno about the first two, but I sure can answer the last one.